Matchless/Forest Wisdom VS Lunar Helm/Top

I'm going to refer to the one with matchless and Forest's Wisdom as your 'Defense" option, and your Nirvana helm/cape build as your "Offense" build.

From initial look, your PDef changes by 1% in reduction. MDef is 2%. This is looking at the actual reduction change, mouseover the word 'Physical Defense' and 'Metal' or other element, it'll say 'reduces blah blah by 58%' or whatever. You can see that the 'increased' defense on your defense build are... Insubstantial. There's also a difference of one defense level. So really, in Defenses, there's really not much difference between the two builds.

Looking at your attack values, it's pretty much the same as well. There's a difference of 5 attack levels. So no real difference here.

And finally, you have basically the same HP for both potential builds.

I don't really know what to suggest to you. You've got a solid base build there, the cape and helm aren't really going to impact much on your overall defenses nor attack.

Personally, if I had the option to get the Nirvana build you posted, I would, simply for the better MDef, and you have other gear with +MDef already.

nirvana all the way.

u're a HA for god's sake, why the **** u considering getting more pdef from the matchless wings?

It can definitely be viewed as a close call.

Given we have more issues with casters and more of a need for mdef (cause ours is so low were not hitting much diminishing returns), Nirvana is way better.

That 5 Attack Levels and 2% Crit is also way more core to your build given its strength heavy.

-Maelael

Neither.

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/30350

Superior helmet.

This cape http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/34512 would go nicely with it, if/when it's actually released.

my 2 cents

I use matchless+forest wisdow

1: 1def lvl better then 400mdef, specialy if u are a well equiped bm, if u considering on having this stuff u proly have nice jewels, cube neck, rank9 belt? warsong belt? maybe even lunar rings.

Reason: when u reach certain amount of mdef, 500 mdef hapens to be 0~1% reduction in defense, yes that hapened with me...so yeah 1def lvl gives me 1% defense wihile the 400 mdef 0~1%!

2: 4% dmgreduction on physical, lol this goes straight to reduction lvls...this is OP, if u think people only atack you with matack u wrong, i always use mdef alter(always) no matter where i am, in group pvp im always with it, and yes r9 archer do prety decent dmg with normal atacks.

3: The HP input...do i need to talk? BM in pvp need to be tanky...

4:The movement speed add is good.


Well thats my opinion but yes if u want to kill enemies in 1 vs 1, etc go for nirvana..gives u more dmg output.

JanCute - Raging Tide wrote: »

my 2 cents

1: 1def lvl better then 400mdef, specialy if u are a well equiped bm, if u considering on having this stuff u proly have nice jewels, cube neck, rank9 belt? warsong belt? maybe even lunar rings.

Reason: when u reach certain amount of mdef, 500 mdef hapens to be 0~1% reduction in defense, yes that hapened with me...so yeah 1def lvl gives me 1% defense wihile the 400 mdef 0~1%!

That's... not how it works. You can compare the mdef reduction in the Nirvana build of 60% vs the Forest/Matchless builds mdef reduction of only 58% and say its "only 2%" but really its more than that. If you are reducing damage 60% that means you are taking 40% damage. So what you are comparing is taking 40% damage vs taking 42% damage. It's a 5% decrease in damage between taking 42% and 40%. Not a 0~1%.

When we are talking casters landing 5-10k hits, that can be a 500 hp difference. More than 1 defense level would give.

If we consider you'd want to be magic marrowed we get these builds:
Nirvana 14404 mdef, 78% reduction
Forest/Matchless 13423 mdef, 77% reduction.
1k mdef difference when marrowed and a 4.5% difference in magic damage.


TheDan summed it up here:

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

G15 Nirvana helm and cape.

The 200 extra added HP, 1 def level, and 1K phys def from Forest Wisdom/Matchless Wings isn't enough to justify the 400 mage def, 200 phys attack, 2% crit loss, and 5 attack level loss.

Sorry, but I'd rather take the mage def bonus; mage marrowed that makes a 1K mage def difference in favor of the G15 helm and cape

as i said:

if u check builds diference in dmg reduction is 1% less in mdef and 1 % more in pdef with match+forest wisdow, this doesnt count the 4% from cape.
Now add the 1 def lvl, compensating the mdef.


about the demon bell, im demon and yes if u dont spam u doing wrong i agree, i do it always not only for chi gains, but also to keep me and squad with a extra pdef.

That thinking is for a bm with uber gears, about a r9 with average refines+cube neck...u want tanky stuff so the matchless+wisdom in my opinion is beter. i dont have that much refines or shards so i choosed this one. and im happy with it.

If u are +11+12 and/or good shard...well why not take a more agressive atitude and go for the nirvana combo.

the 4k dmg i will comfirm that after all our builds arent much of a diference.

JanCute - Raging Tide wrote: »

1% dmg reduction is 5% decrease in damage?

i would like to know where u get that info.


Also TheDan forgot the 4% pdef reduction. + 500 pdef that ends up in more balance when marrowed, and the movement speed or u going to say me archers cant crit u for 8k using barrage, cuz in my server they do.

The difference between the builds was 58% dmg reduction with matchless, and 60% damage reduction with Nirvana.



When you are taking damage the damage you suffer is actually only a fraction of the total. Each percent reduced is larger than the previous percent. For instance going from 0 reduction to 1% reduction is 1% reduced and 1% less damage. Going from 98% reduction to 99% reduction is still only 1% more reduction but you'd be taking 50% less damage.

We can use imaginary examples, too. Lets say 1000 damage is dealt. The reduction of the matchless reduces it 58%, so you take 420 damage. The reduction of Nirvana reduces it 60%, so you take 400. The difference in reduction was 2%, but the difference between 420 and 400 is 5%.

Two things to note on this. First, this is the reason that defenses having a diminished return is somewhat false. Yah it only takes 100 defense to get the early 5% reduction like from 10 to 15% reduction where it might take 5000 defense to get 5% reduction from 80 to 85%, but the 10 to 15% gives a much smaller gain than the 80 to 85%.

Second, Your 4% physical reduction add on Matchless Wings would be taken after everything else. I believe even defense levels. It'd be 4% of 42% x defense levels. So the phys reduction add becomes less useful as your defenses and defense levels grow. Odds are the defense levels are first canceling out your opponents attack levels and you won't have higher def levels than their attack levels, but say it breaks even, your 4% reduction is 4% of 42% for only a 1.68% reduction of physical damage. Less in PvE or if you have more def than your opponents attack levels, more if they have more attack levels.