Why are there so few newcomers?
Comments
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ChaoticShelly wrote: »I think what comes up from this thread is, as this game evolves and changes throughout the years - does it really stand a chance against other, newer games released nowadays, even by the company itself? Content wise, it doesn't seem to compete with what other games seem to offer, despite having a lot more depth as you go further in level (in a sense).
The level of challenge offered to players is close to zero, as everything is handed to them by the cash shop and/or by the lack of obstacles in the game itself. And there is no real reward to achieving high level, as you can either make more money, do Nirvanas, or TW.
I absolutely love PWI but I can't help but wonder if the Chinese team truly cares that while the game is standing strong in China, the opposite is true for NA? It's not close to dying, nor is it dead yet, but with lack of newcomers, and with older, regular players discontent and them leaving eventually, it's bound to happen.
It's just the natural progression of MMOs everywhere in that they all lose their shine sooner or later, i.e... they all have shelf lives. Even the grand old WoW reportedly lost 2 million of its subscriber base during the previous year. Its no accident they have now switched to a partial F2P model.
The time eventually comes when game developers have to decide whether to extend the shine by pumping more money into a title that may be on its way out or else find alternative (cheaper) ways to extend the game's life.
PWE seems to have chosen the latter route in that we saw a press release from them last year indicating they will be looking to add a few more years to the game by reducing the influence of sales (which we have begun to see with Ocean Orbs and General Summer medals no longer having the "bulk discounts" they did in the past) on game play. That together with tacking on an expansion or two every 18 months will hopefully keep their loyal base happy.
Whether this will be enough I highly doubt. Too much competition from the new kids on the block compounded with too much dissatisfaction from their shrinking population base means it really is only a matter of time.0 -
ChaoticShelly wrote: »I absolutely love PWI but I can't help but wonder if the Chinese team truly cares that while the game is standing strong in China, the opposite is true for NA? It's not close to dying, nor is it dead yet, but with lack of newcomers, and with older, regular players discontent and them leaving eventually, it's bound to happen.
The game is still strong in China maybe because rank gears is not buyable in the cash shop....Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."
(We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)0 -
Remove packs, hypers and rank 9.... and the game will continue[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I Miss the old days of PWIb:surrender0 -
MsDominatrix - Heavens Tear wrote: »And gold was so much cheaper for those who grinded. I remember when gold was 200k? Or maybe even cheaper. What was it in 2008? That's when I joined. Ah the good old days.
Used to be 120k too , im getting depressed while remembering these[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
<--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
{That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue0 -
Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »Whether this will be enough I highly doubt. Too much competition from the new kids on the block compounded with too much dissatisfaction from their shrinking population base means it really is only a matter of time.
It's not the new kids on the block that will be providing the competition this time around. It's the old schoolers. Companies, publishers, and developers that have repeatedly dominated the market in gaming.
These aren't games that are being hyped up by marketing or advertising. These are games being hyped up because people KNOW what kind of quality to expect from these companies.
From my personal experience, nothing lives up to the hype surrounding it. That's just the nature of the beast. But that doesn't mean it won't be epic in it's own right.
I'm avoiding mentioning publishers, developers, and their respective titles coming out because rather than getting this locked, I want PWE to see the reality and gravity of the situation. Convince your Chinese overlords to improve the quality of your games here in NA, or get out.0 -
Well one of the reasons is that they are pandering strongly to the base. By that I mean it's more or less loyal players who are vocal about wanting high level content. They've put so much focus into end game content, when most of it is not even used because at the same time they've done this they've don't a poor job at implementing it. The results is that the bar for entry has become much higher than the average new player is willing to go through. So they don't stick around very long. The ones that do find themselves feeling pretty lonely, so they either wise up to power leveling and exacerbate the problem. Or they quit, plain and simple. They need to add more content (and i'm not talking about new races) for the low to mid levels. Something that is worth doing. They need to find a way to make APS less effective, to make that gear the new mid gear like TT has become. That means adding more high level content where it's more effective to be using the new gear than the old ones. And giving that high content stuff that it's worth it to keep doing. The new expansion was a step in the right direction, but it didn't affect PvP. Handed you the new gear in a silver platter and made it free and untradeable. So nobody felt like farming it unless they had a personal interest in the gear.
They should have nerfed APS at the beginning. When there were only a few customers to refund to make happy again, and it wouldn't have a large impact on the community. Now doing so would probably just tick off half the playerbase that is left. The other half that would be celebrating probably won't be as happy when those people leave and they have no one left to play with. Because the bar is still too high and nobody new is coming in. They also should have never introduced hypering and instead introduced more BH like exp instances in which people who are dedicated can powerlevel but you could enter at the level it would be most effective to you.
And finally, the game is just showing it's age. It's had a pretty decent run for a Free to Play MMO. But most MMOs do eventually reach a point where people just want something newer because of all the latest innovations in gaming.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks Silvy for the superb sig
VenusArmani's word of the moment: Expand your Vocabulary, Expand your horizons!
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17992481&postcount=189
Pusillanimous:
1) lacking courage or resolution; cowardly; faint-hearted
2) Proceeding from or indicating a cowardly spirit0 -
Its a very intimidating game. The level cap currently rests at 105. For someone that is level 95. Thats just 10 more levels. Although from what I hear, its still considered too much grind according to veterans. But for someone just starting out. Thats 105 levels they will have to grind through. Once they get a feel for the pace of the game, then 105 seems an impossible task. They are better off playing a new game being released by PWE than playing a game where the veteran playerbase already has almost a ten year head start. There are other elements as well. But the grindiness is one major barrier.
Adding only end game content isnt so bad. Old players arent going to play entry level content or mid level content. And new players havent even seen the beginning to middle content anyways. So everything feels like new content to them. The problem is that the grind is so time consuming, most players will never reach end game content anyways.0 -
tientiensuser wrote: »Its a very intimidating game. The level cap currently rests at 105. For someone that is level 95. Thats just 10 more levels. Although from what I hear, its still considered too much grind according to veterans. But for someone just starting out. Thats 105 levels they will have to grind through. Once they get a feel for the pace of the game, then 105 seems an impossible task. They are better off playing a new game being released by PWE than playing a game where the veteran playerbase already has almost a ten year head start. There are other elements as well. But the grindiness is one major barrier.
Adding only end game content isnt so bad. Old players arent going to play entry level content or mid level content. And new players havent even seen the beginning to middle content anyways. So everything feels like new content to them. The problem is that the grind is so time consuming, most players will never reach end game content anyways.
b:question__????? ten year head start. ?????__b:puzzled
I've been around since the old original (PW) was going into full swing B4 (PWi) had yet to come out yet, and my Bro's 'one of the first of the old original (PW Beta) players' WAY B4 (PWi) or even {Me} for that matter, or {My Interest} in the game aswell "Back when the original (PW) was first being brought out on the web, too be tried out by anyone interested in playing it.".....
And the game may be old, But even I sure don't seem to recall it being Quite that old!?!?!!????.......b:faint
And I DOUBT that my Bro, Would be able too Recall it being That OLD Either?!!!?!!........ ROFLMAO!!!!!!b:laugh
"Though I guess that 1 could factor in the 'Conceptual' & 'Designing' Phazes, as factoring times, into the games actual creation (Timeline & Age) though.".......b:chuckle
PS (DEVs): Please bring 'Wolven GRANDMOTHER, AKA. (GRANDMA Wolfkin)' into (PWi) as a tameable pet "As it was for a few Peeps in (PW)"....... B4 (PWi) Does Die Out.... So that peaple can actually see it....., PRETTY PLEASE!!!!0 -
let me just say, I was a vet of the pre pack sales, and decided to come back. I basicly started as a new player, I remembered nothing about the game. I even made my "alotted second account" I remember why I left, endless grind, and I'm not planing on dumping more then 20 bucks for a few months. Where does that leave me? bh? I know for a fact that People outlevel me, so I'm going to have to hope that my guild will help me. Actualy, scratch that, I know I'm never going to find a squad for bh 29, no one is joining the game. NO ONE(atleast on RT). I don't know what I'm going to do, I'm strating to feel like quiting is a good option again. Then again, it's a chinese game, and all they can do after work is sit at home, so they have the time to devote to this stuff.
*end rant*
My old account has 5 toons stuck at level 20. I can't seem to get them higher, it just feels like a imposible task to me. To me the biggest problem in this game is the ecconomy not having enough money sinks, and the feeling of never being able to get higher level without purchasing at least something from cash shop.0 -
The game has been around since 2005. It was released in the us in 2008. So the game will soon to be 7 years old. Although less then 4 in the states. The current level cap is about 105, and the leveling pace is quite conservative. So whenever a new player enters the game and sees the level cap along with getting an understanding of the game's progression speed. They would be quick to see the kind of challenge this game will be. In addition, PWE continues to release new titles, in order to compete with other MMOs thus indirectly competing with their own previous games.0
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Projava - Raging Tide wrote: »let me just say, I was a vet of the pre pack sales, and decided to come back. I basicly started as a new player, I remembered nothing about the game. I even made my "alotted second account" I remember why I left, endless grind, and I'm not planing on dumping more then 20 bucks for a few months. Where does that leave me? bh? I know for a fact that People outlevel me, so I'm going to have to hope that my guild will help me. Actualy, scratch that, I know I'm never going to find a squad for bh 29, no one is joining the game. NO ONE(atleast on RT). I don't know what I'm going to do, I'm strating to feel like quiting is a good option again. Then again, it's a chinese game, and all they can do after work is sit at home, so they have the time to devote to this stuff.
*end rant*
My old account has 5 toons stuck at level 20. I can't seem to get them higher, it just feels like a imposible task to me. To me the biggest problem in this game is the ecconomy not having enough money sinks, and the feeling of never being able to get higher level without purchasing at least something from cash shop.
Continue to Quest my friend. That is how I made money as well as grind. Get a feel for the economy of the game a learn prices of things so u can merchant effectively. But most of all make friends and have fun. Its just a game so have fun
10x R9 Sage Sin Active
9x Demon Cleric Active
9x Sage Psy Active
8x Mystic Active
9x Demon BM Active
8x Seeker Active
Been around awhile but never really play that long to get anywhere.b:victory0 -
No newcomers - cos the game is going to the end.
Til 30 lvl the game have varied quests and macrosistems - it`s interesting.
After it it`s all the same for all races. And on high lvls there is no point to do quests- bh, buying heads, bh , heads , etc.0 -
No newcomers - cos the game is going to the end.
Til 30 lvl the game have varied quests and macrosistems - it`s interesting.
After it it`s all the same for all races. And on high lvls there is no point to do quests- bh, buying heads, bh , heads , etc.
Well to be perfectly honest no one's forcing you to play this way. You can still level the "old-school" way, doing Crazy Stone, grinding and questing, zhen parties with friends, etc.
Thing is, there is a lot of "elitism" present in this game. Unless you're level 90+ with top-notch gear a lot of other players will look down upon you, they won't allow you to join their guilds or even their instance squads. That's one of the reasons why a lot of people resort to power-levelling and CS'ing their way to the top even though initially they didn't want to do either of those things.
The problem lies as much in the community as it does in PWE's mismanagement of the game.b:surrender0 -
The game isn't about bringing in new players, it's about how pwi can make current players spend more.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »G.W.2 , that's all i have to say. Unless PW redesigns the game , making it more appealing and competitve it will die pretty hard. And dont cry for things like *you have to buy it*. it is a one time purchase and you can enjoy so many different aspects while here your credit card must explode if you want to survive.
Guess it is time to bring MMOs to a new level and wipe out the old ones , a nice clean up is what we need. b:bye
This. +10 -
Sad not many people from my country play pwi b:surrender so playing with a friend is about impossible b:cry
Any case im from the older players soooo zhen + Fcc doesn't really interest me and its bc of that that the games messed up :<.I doubt we gonna get alot of newer players tho but cant blame them as there's no help from any high lvl's with quests etc.Speaking of EU servers tho.Even Factions doesn't do anything for there guildies yet they flame when u lose tw but they dont help the low lvl's to be able to tw b:laugh
Peace
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BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »And what else they could add for low levels?
If you DO all the quests you can pretty much level to 60 with only a few BHs(You can even completely skip BH29).
Existing quests were ok,but they added Earthguard's quest from 20 to 51,Tideborn Quests from 40 to 61 you need to play like a week for 7-8 hours/day before you really run out of quests,and levelling only gets somewhat slow after 60,but hey,there are pubblic quests no-stop for 15 hours straight daily,there are crafting skills to level,there's some grinding there and there,there's the lucidsilver chest thing quest,there's BH,and you say there's not enough stuff for lowbies?
holy freaking LOL what else you guys want?, free exp/spirit out of nowhere?
Do your freaking quests and stop crying that there isn't enough stuff to do because there's plenty and you're just all being lazy slackers.
AND I would like to add that you all sound like you have someone aiming a gun at you yelling"You have to level,faster,faster I SAID FASTERRR!"//"Charge gold,more gold,MORE GOLD!!",over and over.You sounds soo obsessed with it.
I would have to totally agree! Amen!!
I really wish PWE would start taking a lil survey either via Fbook or via registration the player base age and check average time played for players. I would bet the average age and amount of time played in PWI is much older and longer play time then it was a few years ago. The average age of players in my faction is way over 30. When they understand their player base then they can actually attempt to get new players and offer realistic events.
Another issue would have to do with blunders like SP. People want to dismiss/argue the changes made as nothing big but I personally invited over a dozen people right before the first time SP was changed and there are none of those new players left playing all due to SP. It will remain a black eye on the game in the minds of those players for a long time. Most will never return to play PWI again. Some of them told me they could understand the players going to SP for the PK but the lack of any answers and total lack of communication from the GMs were the biggest reasons why they will not return.
It is much more difficult getting players to return after a bad experience then it is to keep new players who have never played the game. I would have to say those who choose to leave because they feel the game is not easy enough for them to power level to 100 get no sympathy from me. TO me this game isnt the hot new toy of the year... its a hobby/entertainment I would like to enjoy for years to come. If that means it takes me 3 years to level to 100 then it will take 3 years. But I will enjoy each and every xp I earn along the way.
If people are really worried about new players... I wonder how many of the people who have commented here have actually taken time to go hang out in one of the small towns just outside of a city and offer to help new players? Offer buffs, offer to buy them a pick axe, offer to answer any questions they may have, or just to welcome them to PWI? Simple word of mouth works as people have mentioned in other replies but why does PWE need to offer freebies to people? Word will spread when more players extend a lending hand to new players to the game and suggest they invite their friends.
... and to those who just want to complain in forums about how someone else abused the game and how its not fair... WHY? Enjoy YOUR game and encourage others to enjoy their game. When those who have abused the game get tired of no one wanting to take them on in TW or world PK... they will get bored and leave. The fewer people we have playing this game who abuse it the better we will get to enjoy OUR game.0 -
Someone can level up to 60 using quests and few bhs only.
This is new for me.
How it can be possible ?
Edit:
May be above players read names of quests only and level in other way.
Also exist endless One-Man army quest, if this is what you mean, but I not saw even one player who had leveled to 60 using this quest.0 -
personal opinion...
the other major expansions introduced new classes, therefore new characters were being made by existing players - to try out the new classes.
the latest expansion doesn't feature that - but what it does feature is more high level content. logically everyone is playing the upper-level game now so they can acquire the new gears and skills to experiment with.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Retired..0 -
You killed it with PK-ing noobs in SP. Some ppl were actually charging noobs to pass. Hyper leveling isnt killing the game. All the arseholes are!
I've played for years, ran facs that are still ingame today, helped alot of ppl.... We talk about squadding and having fun zhening, hell even bh's were fun!
Now u struggle for squads or take the help of a high lvl that kills everything and u just follow and watch (normally with them boasting about how great they are-which used to be a skill solely for BM's LOL) SO WHERE'S THE FUN IN THAT???
This Game used to be FUN <
the keyword to any great game.
This game is now run by players who prefer GREED <
PWI today
I see ALOT of 100+'s that never heard of years, even weeks ago. To make coin they sell FC or Vortex, hence more hyper noobs/alts who cant play there class LOL. This leads to everything becoming in-fac runs at high lvls. Random squads are few and far between these days even BH's.
BTW-what the hell is with the price of endgame gear!!!! PWI makes you CS for your pixels and u fall for it LOLOLOLOL0 -
How do you enjoy the game after 100? after 100 is nothing left to do, but just login to collect keys then logout and come back the next day for another 1minute or so
ehhh how can u said u have nothing to do after lvl100? b:shocked i only play one char, and i dont hv enough time to do all the the BH/cube/morai/delta and grinidng for coins..O.o there's lots to do b:chuckle0 -
...
Now u struggle for squads or take the help of a high lvl that kills everything and u just follow and watch (normally with them boasting about how great they are-which used to be a skill solely for BM's LOL) SO WHERE'S THE FUN IN THAT???
...
Really, it is true.
From fb with all for tabber to pay to play.
But sometimes is possible to play at low levels ignoring madness of greed.
Also interesting to go into bh with players of same level if they know what to do without fc.0 -
DailyStone - Sanctuary wrote: »ehhh how can u said u have nothing to do after lvl100? b:shocked i only play one char, and i dont hv enough time to do all the the BH/cube/morai/delta and grinidng for coins..O.o there's lots to do b:chuckle
And caster with meh b:dirtyViking Pride b:cute
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sn0 -
ok here's my 2 cents...
This game is still fun when I make low lvl alts. I enjoy soloing things up to lvl40 and can easily get most quests done on any character without a squad (though squads make it obviously easier) but by lvl40 i'm ready for some real action, BHs. So i pick up my BH1 and head to secret passage where EVERYONE QQs for a squad hours on end... well i find no one... i'm playing a barb ready to tank qingzi and no one is there to help me... so i wait and wait... and WAIT until i finally get a squad after maybe an hour of waiting... new players aren't going to wait that long and i've done that a lot on my veno so i'm used to it lol (damn FC squads take so long to get on a veno >.>). see a problem here? the plvling killed this game badly... i can barely get bh squads for my BARB who's now a painfully low 65... and usually i'm waiting 20-40mins for a squad in the middle of archo... most of the time a high lvl has to solo it cause the squad can't find a cleric... when i'm on my barb i want to TANK not let another high lvl sin tank it... that isn't FUN having your bh run be soloed by someone... takes the life out of the game tbh. So i'm going to throw my alts away and move my R8 veno out of my TW faction (cause TW is basically dead on archo) and put it in a faction my veno can actually help... before people totally forget how this game is supposed to be played here are the core components.
1. a perfectly well rounded squad has 1 high HP+p.def tank 1 magic DD 1 super amping DD 1 healer 1 melee DD 1 ranged spike DD... aka barb, veno, cleric, archer, wizzy, BM... the CORE 6 classes that make the perfect squad... aps has killed off most barbs and replaced them with BMs and Sins, psys have killed off wizzies and venos are pretty much dead too... no one needs healing cause sins have BP so bye bye clerics we don't need ya... so why would ANYONE want to play only a bm, sin, psy? how many people still run a traditional delta? barb/seeker, cleric, archer, wizzy/psy/mystic, veno, bm/sin? probably no one... "oh hey barbs we love you for delta come take the hits for us!" says the sin and bm... 2x comes around "hey sin, bm, can i come delta? i'll give you awesome buffs and a 50% p.def reduction " says the barb... "no you can't come because we have no cleric and your DD is too low, sorry barb no aps no nirvana" says the bm and sin... see the picture? we have denied the core system of characters because of aps thus destroying the game.
2. It's not only aps, as soon as people started playing they see drama... drama... and guess what? more drama. new players come in and can't get help, they ask a question in normal chat and no one takes 2 seconds to answer... i've done it before and i'm sure everyone else has too. "oh i've answered that SAME question from venos all day, just hatch the egg you stupid veno, it's an egg it isn't going to hatch itself >.>" that attitude doesn't make it a newcomer want to say very long huh? who would like to start the game and get attitude and sass from the first players they meet? we have no community... all we have are little girls trying to stay in their friend circles and not letting people in. but not everyone is like that... factions that let lvl1 noobs join and call everyone who joins family are my favorite factions, but alas those tend to be 5/90 online kinda factions leading to the over death of those leading it... then they either scatter to separate factions and lose their friendship or they all join 1 faction and try to continue it...
3. Lack of people from lvl40-80 means there is no one to get those who are new (and without the coin to plvl) to lvl to experience more of the game... and they already spent 39 lvls grinding hard to get to where they are.
4. the rapid increase in lvl from 40-80 means the coin you get from quests and mob drops isn't enough to sustain your character and get new skills... and not everyone has time to spend 5 hours grinding mobs to just lvl a few skills... (pwi could make coin a bonus for BHs and help the lower lvls out a bit).
i'm sure i can rant even more but i'm tired... tbh we QQ about the devs so much we forget that the community as a whole is more responsible for the decline of the game. you don't HAVE to be that 4aps r9 sin... you don't HAVE to be that 5 aps R8 sin... you don't HAVE to be that barb who has to restat to dex in order to be useful and wanted again... i've been the unwanted class, ** venos have the hardest time getting FC squads cause a sin or bm or psy will almost always win over a veno...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
~Fear the Fox~
at the end of the day... idc if i'm "pro" or have the best gear... cause i know i'm an awesome veno cause i pour my heart into my character and give her life0 -
1. Weak advertising.
2. The low level of trust from regular players:
PWI is very beautiful, glamorous game. Even GV2 sometimes behind because moving in the direction of greater realism. But I never will call friends to this game as I understand - for fun now need at least $ 2-3k or not to go away from the computer for months. And the gap between r9 and the other is huge, which would have stopped being an interesting game.0 -
I believe people forgot how to have fun... nowadays most people won't do something that doesn't give them profit. Most people powerlevel so newcomers have few people to play with. Most people who make alts powerlevel them to 100 in a matter of weeks/days and they end up being bored, AFKing forever etc.
I don't know about others but I play only three toons as of now and I don't have enough time to do all the things I want/need on them XD
Probably went a little off topic but I agree with Foxchu. The devs/gms and whatever did things that broke the game and all...but the playerbase is no less responsible for the game's state.[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0 -
Altogether I can say this topic is very enlightening, and a lot of the opinions here are well thought out and I want to keep it this way, it's nice to have a topic that is so far flame free and troll free.
If this keeps up, I'll try to get a list gathered, and will email it to Frankie to review with the rest of the team. I do think that it can lead to some better changes, though nothing can be guaranteed or speed up, like all things, it can take time.
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sig winner: neoyoshi0 -
It's gotten to the point where lower level BH squads ask me not to tank anything and just heal because the experience is so refreshing to them, to be able to play 'normally'. Something really needs to be done about bringing more people into the game, and givinng them a reason to actually play and not powerlevel to end-game.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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ChaoticShelly wrote: »Altogether I can say this topic is very enlightening, and a lot of the opinions here are well thought out and I want to keep it this way, it's nice to have a topic that is so far flame free and troll free.
If this keeps up, I'll try to get a list gathered, and will email it to Frankie to review with the rest of the team. I do think that it can lead to some better changes, though nothing can be guaranteed or speed up, like all things, it can take time.
There is no try, there's only do... errr... lol. But yeah, I sure hope you will make a list of things to improve it for newcomers. PWI and the PWI crew really needs to change if they want to keep attracting new players. If they do not, I fear it will become the death of PWI soon. Either because PWI crew adds to much costs into the game since there are no newcomers. Or because the PWI crew doesn't see the big flaws in the game right now. *turns the PWI flag upside down* I declare a state of emergency! Something has to happen now, not in a few months, but now. b:victory0 -
For sure PWI has the most pessimistic/QQnerdrage community I've ever seen lol.
PW isn't that bad,its just people that get tired of it can't quit and instead they rageout in the forum.
If you can't quit it,means its not that bad eh.WTB>More Fash
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