Arcane venos vs. HA venos

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Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
edited July 2012 in Venomancer
With the advent of the aps craze, and the realization that a well geared HA veno can out-DPS an equally geared arcane veno, I've been musing. Are arcane venos relevant anymore?

Arcane venos have a stronger pet heal and channeling allows them to herc-tank bosses than an HA veno couldn't. But is this really an advantage? The TT market is in the toilet, and every sin and his grandmother can solo TT 10x faster than a veno with a herc.

In this new, "aps world," does it make more sense to be a heavy veno?


I would consider a re-stat myself...but I would have to spend hundreds of millions (that I don't have) to get all new gear, and I suppose my getting rank 8 will have been slightly wasted. It would also require me to change my entire playstyle....So, what do you think?
Post edited by Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver on
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  • Nine_Lives - Raging Tide
    Nine_Lives - Raging Tide Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited March 2012
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    b:laugh TW, PK, oneshotting anyone in warsong after bh....i don't think arcane venos will be going away without a fight.

    Though I still am considering going HA cause it suits me more to my playstyle, if you are happy with your playstyle don't just change it for a trend. You may end up ragequitting.

    As for rank 8 gear, if you want to get into caster squads this is the minimum requirement for most wc squads.

    What is your end goal btw, pvp or pve? Pve morai 100-101 gear is an excellent option, slaying and warding levels gives you att and defense boosts rivaling high refine rank 8 gear, though pet healing may drop a bit. PvP go for rank or nirvy and a nix.

    Don't restat yet till you got the new books at morai...idk how those books will affect those builds. If it will lean towards arcane more or just be almost neutral to all builds remains to be seen
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2012
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    Some people still think aps is such a big deal; that mages are made obsolete by it. -lol. Mages except Mystics are best pullers in Warsong Metal, get into Rebirth squads much easier, have an easier time doing Morai dailies, can farm VoS better. If you don't play both (seems obvious for some) -why comment?

    If you wanna do aps; it seems like the wise thing to do is play one that can use blood paint, and rank equips. Not a veno that is often expected to be able to certain things that it can't.
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  • Itori - Lost City
    Itori - Lost City Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited March 2012
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    Well, I restat from HA. I was pretty much since the start because I was a noob and messed up my stats and wanted a fox-oriented build.

    I used both forms about half and half, problem was no matter what I almost always stole aggro from my pet, while physical mobs didnt hurt much magic ones screwed me bad.
    In PvP, melees could still punch/slice me to death and I didnt hit them hard enough to kill, while magic classes just blast through your defenses and hp, while you do have a nix, it has a chance of getting killed... and if you want to do enough damage to kill that mage you probably be in fox (go wasted str!) but then you're giving up something that rocks in PvP: RANGE. You are not an effing sin.

    I'm AA now, not pure mag but probably will be eventually. I crit slightly less but I hit for so much more regularly it doesnt even matter.I didnt even feel my "survivability" go down by restatting, oh contraire, I survived better than HA vs physical mobs and millions better versus magic mobs, but thats probably because when I restat I was packing on extra HP over my old HA. Plus, when you twoshot mobs at 27 meters whats the point of going like 3 meters away and taking longer to kill mobs that will probably hit you and possibly kite so you can "out-dps" a mage? Yeah, HA can use magic too but they outdamage us in fox not human... so take longer to kill mobs to DD on bosses a bit better in a squad where most people out-dps you and honestly don't care if the veno is HA or AA unless its caster nv ffs.

    If you can't play Venomancer well as any build, you're probably just not good at veno.
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  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited March 2012
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Mages except Mystics are best pullers in Warsong Metal

    I've never done warsong, but I suspect that if I tried to pull the mobs in metal, they would destroy my pitiful 10k magic defense and 5k HP.
    tweakz wrote: »
    get into Rebirth squads much easier

    I have never seen a rebirth squad that was explicitly looking for a veno, arcane or otherwise.
    tweakz wrote: »
    have an easier time doing Morai dailies

    This may be true for some dailies, but killing level 105 wood mobs is a pain when all you have is wood damage.
    tweakz wrote: »
    can farm VoS better.

    Why farm an outdated place like VoS when the most useful thing you can get from it can simply be bought? Also, even heavy venos can use pets, so this point is kind of moot.
  • Reifeil - Archosaur
    Reifeil - Archosaur Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited March 2012
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    Uhhhhhhh.... ABout healing HA venos are just as good at healing as an AA LOL

    We genurally and purposly let our pets die haha! i tank most things and i always let my pets die because im busy tanking XD though you can complain about who can heal better or not but its all the same XD

    I'm HA and i kill alot of AA venos tbh >.< Stun them with nix and gneie skills and bam dead....
    XD

    and if you knwo what your doing as a PURE HA and not an AA/HA you can even get a r8 wep XD its not hard just expensive.
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited March 2012
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    Reifeil - Archosaur wrote: »
    Uhhhhhhh.... ABout healing HA venos are just as good at healing as an AA LOL

    I smell a troll. b:chuckle

    But in case you're serious. More magic attack=stronger pet heals. more channeling gear=faster pet heals. HA venos have neither of these. (I'm aware that they CAN equip channeling gear, but it doesn't change the first point)
  • Reifeil - Archosaur
    Reifeil - Archosaur Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited March 2012
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    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I smell a troll. b:chuckle

    But in case you're serious. More magic attack=stronger pet heals. more channeling gear=faster pet heals. HA venos have neither of these. (I'm aware that they CAN equip channeling gear, but it doesn't change the first point)


    If you noted i said 'just' aswell as any AA, i didn't actually say if they are stronger or weaker.

    Yeah we are considerably weaker in healing apet that is true but we are able to heal through world boss',TT boss's just aswell as many other AA venos but we make that up for our pys def so we won't actually die if we accidentally forget to heal our pets. We may not actually have to power like AA venos but we are just aswell good at healing them. I was serious btw LOL

    And yes i do agree we don't have enough channeling and stronger or fast pet heals that an AA veno may have, But we do have the pysical resistance to actually make up for it.

    For eg. you tanking pet dies etc and your mobbed by atleast 10 pysical or elemental mobs. ( yes i know some AA venos can survive this but this is an eg) AA venos are most 'likely' to drop while a HA veno can sustain enough damage to survive and kill the mobs without a pet.
  • Pantherlilie - Archosaur
    Pantherlilie - Archosaur Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    im a heavy veno and for the most part i fight right with my pet. yes magic does make me want to murder someone but in human form i can solo most things that take Arcanes a pet plus themselves to do. In fox form the only time i die is when i am grouped up on or i am not paying attention. i have dueled arcane venos before and my track record is 50/50. if they stay on the move and i cant freeze them i lose because of my magic defence, but if i can stop them they die a lot faster than i do by their hands because of their weak physical defense. I prefer the play of a heavy veno and the fox tree is exactly what that is for.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Reifeil - Archosaur wrote: »
    If you noted i said 'just' aswell as any AA, i didn't actually say if they are stronger or weaker.

    Yeah we are considerably weaker in healing apet that is true but we are able to heal through world boss',TT boss's just aswell as many other AA venos but we make that up for our pys def so we won't actually die if we accidentally forget to heal our pets. We may not actually have to power like AA venos but we are just aswell good at healing them. I was serious btw LOL

    LOL -obviously a joke
    And yes i do agree we don't have enough channeling and stronger or fast pet heals that an AA veno may have, But we do have the pysical resistance to actually make up for it.

    But it doesn't make up for it.
    For eg. you tanking pet dies etc and your mobbed by atleast 10 pysical or elemental mobs. ( yes i know some AA venos can survive this but this is an eg) AA venos are most 'likely' to drop while a HA veno can sustain enough damage to survive and kill the mobs without a pet.

    Impressive to noobs, but we have Absolute Domain + Feral Concentration, or Bramble Hood, or any number of ways of dealing. It seems like you're more into stats than actually playing and using skills.
    Pantherlilie - Archosaur wrote:
    im a heavy veno and for the most part i fight right with my pet. yes magic does make me want to murder someone but in human form i can solo most things that take Arcanes a pet plus themselves to do. In fox form the only time i die is when i am grouped up on or i am not paying attention. i have dueled arcane venos before and my track record is 50/50. if they stay on the move and i cant freeze them i lose because of my magic defence, but if i can stop them they die a lot faster than i do by their hands because of their weak physical defense. I prefer the play of a heavy veno and the fox tree is exactly what that is for.

    Having 50/50 track record for dueling isn't evidence of effectiveness. Most of us are inexperienced at fighting an HA veno; which should give you the upper hand in duels.
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  • Marengo - Lost City
    Marengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I smell a troll. b:chuckle

    But in case you're serious. More magic attack=stronger pet heals. more channeling gear=faster pet heals. HA venos have neither of these. (I'm aware that they CAN equip channeling gear, but it doesn't change the first point)

    I smell pure mag b:laugh
    Any veno with decent weap for her lvl (100+, because there is no point to wear HA before) can restore full pet's HP per 1 heal. Even full vit, and it has same attack power as HA. Pure magic could restore 23874387k but tell me what for if pet hardly has 5k (herc with hp buff)?

    as for channeling, HA can wear any mdef jewellry for chanting without losing too much pdef. So healing will be as good.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Marengo - Lost City wrote: »
    I smell pure mag b:laugh
    Any veno with decent weap for her lvl (100+, because there is no point to wear HA before) can restore full pet's HP per 1 heal. Even full vit, and it has same attack power as HA. Pure magic could restore 23874387k but tell me what for if pet hardly has 5k (herc with hp buff)?

    as for channeling, HA can wear any mdef jewellry for chanting without losing too much pdef. So healing will be as good.

    Lvl 103 w rank 8 Pataka +10 and 2 Sapphire Gems with pure mag (538 mag) has matk of 12722 - 17870. Lvl 103 Herc has 4720 HP.

    .3*12722= 3816.6+540= 4356.6 (not enough to fully heal herc with a decent weapon and pure mag).

    HA isn't going to wear Warsoul of Heaven (-3%), Rank 8 top (-6%), Nirvana Pants (-3%), etc.

    So pls.. s t f u
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  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Lvl 103 w rank 8 Pataka +10 and 2 Sapphire Gems with pure mag (538 mag) has matk of 12722 - 17870. Lvl 103 Herc has 4720 HP.

    .3*12722= 3816.6+540= 4356.6 (not enough to fully heal herc with a decent weapon and pure mag).

    HA isn't going to wear Warsoul of Heaven (-3%), Rank 8 top (-6%), Nirvana Pants (-3%), etc.

    So pls.. s t f u

    You leveled your herc to 103? What kind of person is insane enough to do that?
  • Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear
    Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,681 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    You leveled your herc to 103? What kind of person is insane enough to do that?

    When you are butthurt that your herc become obsolete in most instances cause of BP-APS toons , then you do the best you can to troll yourself
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    <--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
    {That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue
  • Marengo - Lost City
    Marengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Lvl 103 w rank 8 Pataka +10 and 2 Sapphire Gems with pure mag (538 mag) has matk of 12722 - 17870. Lvl 103 Herc has 4720 HP.

    .3*12722= 3816.6+540= 4356.6 (not enough to fully heal herc with a decent weapon and pure mag).
    You won't believe but it's more than enough, besides channeling is even more important than attack. Whom did you fail to farm if you lack your +10 pure mag attack power? b:laugh
    HA isn't going to wear Warsoul of Heaven (-3%), Rank 8 top (-6%), Nirvana Pants (-3%), etc.
    I wonder, have you ever heard of OHT gear?
    etc. - what?
    So pls.. s t f u
    Ohhh you always heal on 12772? There is really something to be upset about b:cry
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  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    if you want pdef that much... http://pwcalc.com/034f817b5b3ca140 b:chuckle
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • Marengo - Lost City
    Marengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »
    if you want pdef that much... http://pwcalc.com/034f817b5b3ca140 b:chuckle
    And HA can get moreeeeeeee b:laugh
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    When you are butthurt that your herc become obsolete in most instances cause of BP-APS toons , then you do the best you can to troll yourself

    Herc isn't obsolete: You think I wait for bp aps toons to start on a boss before I Soul Degenerate and Amp it?
    Marengo - Lost City wrote: »
    You won't believe but it's more than enough, besides channeling is even more important than attack. Whom did you fail to farm if you lack your +10 pure mag attack power? b:laugh

    I don't believe because you're full of ****, and just trolling here. Give us video of you soloing Xenospace Drake as HA.
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  • Itori - Lost City
    Itori - Lost City Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    You guys talk about healing hercs like it's still relevant.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Itori - Lost City wrote: »
    You guys talk about healing hercs like it's still relevant.

    Xenospace Drake is most often tanked by Phoenix (should be easy).
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  • Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear
    Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,681 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    tweakz wrote: »
    Xenospace Drake is most often tanked by Phoenix (should be easy).

    Except that few that still have their minds do that thing.

    Your absurd love for this boss and habit of bringing him in the discussion is beyond me.

    As for you being the first to make a move , does it matter ? Who tanks it in the end ? Certainly not you or your yellow fatbutt.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    <--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
    {That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue
  • Marengo - Lost City
    Marengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    tweakz wrote: »
    I don't believe because you're full of ****, and just trolling here.
    Can's read whats behind **** =((( Can you pls rephrase it somehow so we all see what you are full of? b:laugh
    Itori - Lost City wrote: »
    You guys talk about healing hercs like it's still relevant.
    This.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Give us video of you soloing Xenospace Drake as HA.

    Xenospace Drake
    Physical Attack 8382 - 10058
    Magic Attack 3542 - 4250

    Couldn't find it, so i took Savagian Commander Pao
    Physical Attack 8570 - 10283
    Magic Attack 3617 - 4340

    Solo
    61488470.jpg

    9-13k attack, and less magic than some heavy venos mentioned in this post have.
    25308930.jpg

    24% channeling (1 savant in wep)
    70783961.jpg

    Done
    32971442.jpg

    What am i doing wrong?
    26611853.jpg
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  • SylenThunder - Twilight Temple
    SylenThunder - Twilight Temple Posts: 7,908
    edited May 2012
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    Marengo - Lost City wrote: »
    ...as for channeling, HA can wear any mdef jewellry for chanting without losing too much pdef. So healing will be as good.
    Healing will not be as good because all of those points you take off MAG to go HA are going to completely nerf your damage output. Since healing amount is based off of your base damage, you're completely nerfing your healing power so it will not be as good.

    yes, HA is a viable build, but don't make people think it's going to be as good as AA for a class that is magic based. It's not.
    The point of HA is adding Pdef for better overall defense. I believe it's typically because the person doing so wants to play more in fox form which is more of a close-combat battlemage format similar to the way the seeker is designed. Unfortunately, the class was designed as an arcane, not as melee so you don't get stat benefits from putting points to STR and DEX, and it significantly decreases your effective damage because you are taking points away from MAG.


    Quite personally, until they update the Venomancer to fix the playstyle introduced by fox form, the only real valid builds are either AA or LA. The class needs a new weapon that will benefit both the melee world of fox form and the caster world of human form, while the stat system needs to be improved to allow for better benefits in the HA arena. I've often suggested a magical claw weapon that would be venomancer specific. It would focus more on APS for fox form, and have +MAG adds to compensate for the build.
    Currently the Venomancer is an incompletely designed toon IMO.
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  • Marengo - Lost City
    Marengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Healing will not be as good because all of those points you take off MAG to go HA are going to completely nerf your damage output. Since healing amount is based off of your base damage, you're completely nerfing your healing power so it will not be as good.
    I also specified earlier that it might be not as good, but quite enough to cover most situations. Besides you forget about full vit arcane =P
    The class needs a new weapon that will benefit both the melee world of fox form and the caster world of human form, while the stat system needs to be improved to allow for better benefits in the HA arena.
    Not rly, veno lacks not weapon but controlling skills, because no matter how hard you hit, you cannot attack running target. We have 3 pure melee classes in game, 2 are best in combo stuns 3d compensates lack of stuns with hp. And you are right, veno is designed to be a mage type.
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  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Marengo - Lost City wrote: »
    Can's read whats behind **** =((( Can you pls rephrase it somehow so we all see what you are full of? b:laugh

    This.


    Xenospace Drake
    Physical Attack 8382 - 10058
    Magic Attack 3542 - 4250

    Couldn't find it, so i took Savagian Commander Pao
    Physical Attack 8570 - 10283
    Magic Attack 3617 - 4340

    Solo
    61488470.jpg

    9-13k attack, and less magic than some heavy venos mentioned in this post have.
    25308930.jpg

    24% channeling (1 savant in wep)
    70783961.jpg

    Done
    32971442.jpg

    What am i doing wrong?
    26611853.jpg

    Tankiing with a herc. Xenospace Drake is an aerial boss in OVS (one of the Scarred Story daily targets), you can't get a herc up to its altitude. (Putting strong and protect on a nix is the route I'm aiming at, as soon as I get the base vault up to the requisite level (probably be a few months yet), failed healing a stock nix on it.)
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  • Marengo - Lost City
    Marengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Tankiing with a herc. Xenospace Drake is an aerial boss in OVS (one of the Scarred Story daily targets), you can't get a herc up to its altitude. (Putting strong and protect on a nix is the route I'm aiming at, as soon as I get the base vault up to the requisite level (probably be a few months yet), failed healing a stock nix on it.)
    1) He didn't say i should tank with nix. And i really didn't find the boss though i hanged around for a while there. So i picked similar one with a bit higher attack.
    2) Nix is not a tank. It's supposed to be a dd.
    3) My nix has default set of skills, no pdef. The one with defence skill will of course tanks better, but if you insist... xD

    http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4205/83326266.jpg
    http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/444/22031109.jpg
    http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/723/29441110.jpg

    And may i ask why do you need that boss? From what i know OHT dailies don't give anything good or what would worth time and effort.
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  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    I quite stopped following, I'm not sure what's the argument about anymore but here's my 2 cents..

    Healing. HA will never reach the healing ability of a pure magic build AA (comparing similar gear always) and that is a fact. The thing is, how many venomancers actually solo TT? Or anything for the matter that requires so much healing power? If your heals are enough for what you need to do then I see no issues.

    Builds. Does it matter? Don't forget we live in the year where you can buy power from the boutique in a matter of minutes. Just load your credit card and ta-dah! A HA venomancer with incredibly high refines on both gear and weapon will surpass a mediocre AA by miles and vice versa.
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  • Mekkhala - Lost City
    Mekkhala - Lost City Posts: 303 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    With veno, a build is as good as the amount of coin the player is willing to funnel into it.
    HA, LA and AA are all viable. HA and LA will just require more care, coin, and planning.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    61 points in STR is not HA. -lmao.
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  • Marengo - Lost City
    Marengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    tweakz wrote: »
    61 points in STR is not HA. -lmao.
    Almost full vit. Even if i redistribute stats for HA i get about same attack. Questions?
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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    Marengo - Lost City wrote: »
    Almost full vit. Even if i redistribute stats for HA i get about same attack. Questions?

    yep; had no problem tanking that boss. Xenospace drake is the test. Not just that, but you're Lvl 102 which is well beyond what level you'd need to be to be able to solo that boss as soon as you could. You're also showing what's beyond a decent 100+ weapon with no mention of refines.

    Fact is; even with Rank 8 +10 with 2 Sapphire Gems and pure mage you simply aren't always going to fully heal a Herc sufficiently. -And from what I see other people using: that is beyond a decent 100+ weapon.
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