End-game weapons comparison

Korrgan - Dreamweaver · March 2012

I have read about the weapon dicussion on this thread and decided to create a weapon comparison table with a friend.

here : http://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/gatageek/sin-weapons

I hope it will be useful for you guys, just edit the yellow places with your values.
Your feedbacks are welcome.

b:bye

edit:
Updated by removing the predefined values. I think now is better to notice it is an interactive sheet.
I'll put the shards in a better place in near future too. To edit, click in the buttom "Click to Edit" at the top right and fill the yellow cells.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · March 2012

No, this is the wrong way of doing it. The faults:

1. You assume Demon cultivation
3. You don't use Wolf Emblem
4. You don't use +12 refines
5. You don't use Drakeflame Stones
6. What's up with only 5 attack levels? You should have at least 13 due to the daily blessing and at most 61 due to Jones + Nirvana + DoTs + 1x Sky Cover
7. The APS nerf isn't only on 5.0, it's also on 4.0 aps. You can easily confirm this by buying a lot level fist, going to attack some mob and using Wind Shield or Relentless Courage so that the only variable is your attack speed
8. Your Dark Death Thorn is way too random: Getting those specific adds is 1:8,000 and it's not even the ideal adds
9. How come the recast R8 gets a random dex boost like +14, when the range is 8~20 and R9 and Dark Death Thorn get the minimum values on their ranges of 10~11 and 18~19?

As for the template you use:
1. Your Energetic Robe: Lunar Glade doesn't have max, nor minimum stats. You should use either of those for consistency
2. You use Band from Heaven's Jail, when that ring is inferior to Sky Cover
3. You use R8 ring in a comparison that includes R9, so you should use the R9 ring on all the builds
4. Your assassin in the template has 54 base vita, which is ridiculous
5. The dex in your Nirvana hat is maxed but it's only 8 on the boots

Korrgan - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, this is the wrong way of doing it. The faults:

1. You assume Demon cultivation

No, I didn't. The example values are for a demon sin yes, but all the values that matter can be altered. Like weapon mastery and the aps bonus at the first column.

3. You don't use Wolf Emblem

It can be added but the change will apply to every weapons section. The proportion will remain the same.

4. You don't use +12 refines

It can be changed. The default values are just an example.

5. You don't use Drakeflame Stones

Can be changed.

6. What's up with only 5 attack levels? You should have at least 13 due to the daily blessing and at most 61 due to Jones + Nirvana + DoTs + 1x Sky Cover

The first columns are the values related to the gear and skills, the +5 attack level comes from the nirvana hat + leggins combo.

7. The APS nerf isn't only on 5.0, it's also on 4.0 aps. You can easily confirm this by buying a lot level fist, going to attack some mob and using Wind Shield or Relentless Courage so that the only variable is your attack speed

Thx, I'll fix this

8. Your Dark Death Thorn is way too random: Getting those specific adds is 1:8,000 and it's not even the ideal adds

Because it is just an example.

9. How come the recast R8 gets a random dex boost like +14, when the range is 8~20 and R9 and Dark Death Thorn get the minimum values on their ranges of 10~11 and 18~19?

Again, values in yellow boxes are just for example.

As for the template you use:
1. Your Energetic Robe: Lunar Glade doesn't have max, nor minimum stats. You should use either of those for consistency
2. You use Band from Heaven's Jail, when that ring is inferior to Sky Cover
3. You use R8 ring in a comparison that includes R9, so you should use the R9 ring on all the builds
4. Your assassin in the template has 54 base vita, which is ridiculous
5. The dex in your Nirvana hat is maxed but it's only 8 on the boots

The template is a real sin in Dreamweaver. I used her to fill the yellow boxes with examples. The reason for the current stats is because they are true ingame random. As for the number 4, it is her choice and I respect.

The focus of this table is to compare weapons including aspects the pwcalc don't show so explicit like Attack Levels and Slaying Levels influence on the damage.
Also, to be possible compare changes in the addon stats with the output damage (questions like, what is better: +1 critical or +1 atack level)
The focus is on the math (as long rounding functions don't drive me mad) not in the look OFC. It is not supose to be a full-gear "look and dream" build tool.

The values already present in the yellow cells may cause confusion, I see now.
I think I'll update and leave they blank.

Thx for the feedback. b:cute

Olbaze - Sanctuary · March 2012

Korrgan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The focus of this table is to compare weapons including aspects the pwcalc don't show so explicit like Attack Levels and Slaying Levels influence on the damage.
Also, to be possible compare changes in the addon stats with the output damage (questions like, what is better: +1 critical or +1 atack level)
The focus is on the math (as long rounding functions don't drive me mad) not in the look OFC. It is not supose to be a full-gear "look and dream" build tool.

The values already present in the yellow cells may cause confusion, I see now.
I think I'll update and leave they blank.

Thx for the feedback. b:cute

Oh... didn't notice it was an interactive spreadsheet.

In that case, do you actually use the Level somewhere in there? As far as I know, player level isn't a factor in damage unless you account for mobs or players.

Also, after fiddling around with it, I noticed that it displays 3.33 aps as 3.34.
Also, looks like the crit rate is kinda iffy somewhere. Putting in 500 dex and 0% crit from gear& skills yields 26-27% crit on all setups. With just the 500 dex, it should be 25%.

Korrgan - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh... didn't notice it was an interactive spreadsheet.

In that case, do you actually use the Level somewhere in there? As far as I know, player level isn't a factor in damage unless you account for mobs or players.

Also, after fiddling around with it, I noticed that it displays 3.33 aps as 3.34.
Also, looks like the crit rate is kinda iffy somewhere. Putting in 500 dex and 0% crit from gear& skills yields 26-27% crit on all setups. With just the 500 dex, it should be 25%.

Yes, the level is part of the damage. My main source is the pw-wiki, here.

I noticed the rounding error too but I'm using the interval itself in the DPS calculation to keep the values accurate.

The rounding functions are always a problem. b:angry pwcalc.com also has a rouding error in the damage multiply. Depending of the dexterity values it may shows slight different damages values compared to in-game. It is a limit imposed by the platform and programs in which we work.

The critical is correct, there is a constant 1% crit 'free'. You can notice it creating a new toon or removing all your gear and doing dex/20 rounded down +1. Barrier Thorn adds +1% by its stats.

violetvalor · March 2012

I made a couple of my own too. It too is interactive, but gives more options for the weapons and shows more of the weapon progression.

Sage:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradFBBM0xrZHpMdDQteFZQb3hCaFZvclE

Demon:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradFhQUHROaFl2bExCVEJNbTltMExyZ1E

I would love to get constructive criticism. So far, I know I am missing GoF/SS, Power Dash, and Wolf Emblem.

Korrgan - Dreamweaver · March 2012

violetvalor wrote: »

I made a couple of my own too. It too is interactive, but gives more options for the weapons and shows more of the weapon progression.

Sage:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradFBBM0xrZHpMdDQteFZQb3hCaFZvclE

Demon:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradFhQUHROaFl2bExCVEJNbTltMExyZ1E

I would love to get constructive criticism. So far, I know I am missing GoF/SS, Power Dash, and Wolf Emblem.

Sorry but I don't to see any interactivity in your tables. You just give the predefined templates and the values calculated. Everything is constant and stuck inside the formula, there is no variable. For example, now I wanna see all the builds using 450 for dexterity. I do have to change inside the formulas directly in every row. Maybe our goals and objectives are different.

This kind of table is what I wanna avoid in first place.

I wanted to design a dynamic tool to respond quickly and recalculate all the values on-the-fly.
When we have questions like

"what is better for the DPS +1 attack level or +100 to maximun damage"
"if I lost 1 aps and gain 30 attack levels, what difference it will make in DPS"
"what difference does a Drakeflame Stone over a Garnet Gem including all the attack levels and stuff"

I wanna a tool in which you can change 2, 3 numbers and have the result. Taking everything that matters and put it in the numbers. And with any combination of gear, within all the possibilities.

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands · March 2012

finalsnake has double int and 3% crit

Olbaze - Sanctuary · March 2012

You might want to change the writing on E7 to "-Interval" instead of "+Interval".

Also, you might want to make the GoF proc rate a constant and instead use a 1 or 0 on the +GoF rows, for simplicity. Either that or remove A21 and C21.

Also, you might want to add Wolf Emblem as an option in the non-weapon related parameters. Simply title it as Rage Damage and allow the values to be 200-240, as is seen when you open Character Info. Adding it to the crit% modifier should be simple: simply add a multiplier to the Total critical rate function.

With that, this spreadsheet could be used to compare any and all weapon-only questions, e.g. refines vs shards vs different weapons. However, often the question isn't about the weapons only, but rather a combination of armor, weapon and ornaments, which is a much, much more complex setting. And I'm pretty sure that a spreadsheet on that would just be confusing and excessively long, at least when compared to simply comparing two setups on two tabs of pwcalc.

The Earthen Rift column is a bit iffy still. It doesn't take cultivation into account at all, nor amps. You might want to add Earthen Rift to the non-weapon related bonuses so that people could manipulate that as well. Adding Subsea Strike would probably be taking it a bit too far, though.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · March 2012

I'm pretty sure people have tested several times that SS is 15% proc and GoF is a 20% proc.

Traz - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm pretty sure people have tested several times that SS is 15% proc and GoF is a 20% proc.

Those would be it. 2,000 hits with GoF weapon and SS weapon each.

violetvalor · March 2012

Korrgan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry but I don't to see any interactivity in your tables. You just give the predefined templates and the values calculated. Everything is constant and stuck inside the formula, there is no variable. For example, now I wanna see all the builds using 450 for dexterity. I do have to change inside the formulas directly in every row. Maybe our goals and objectives are different.

This kind of table is what I wanna avoid in first place.

I wanted to design a dynamic tool to respond quickly and recalculate all the values on-the-fly.
When we have questions like

"what is better for the DPS +1 attack level or +100 to maximun damage"
"if I lost 1 aps and gain 30 attack levels, what difference it will make in DPS"
"what difference does a Drakeflame Stone over a Garnet Gem including all the attack levels and stuff"

I wanna a tool in which you can change 2, 3 numbers and have the result. Taking everything that matters and put it in the numbers. And with any combination of gear, within all the possibilities.

One can change all the numbers in the Refine boost, Gem boost, Ring boost, Base aps, Dex, Crit %, and Attack level columns to see their effect on the dph, avg dps, (sparked and unsparked), and avg bp healing/second (sparked and unsparked). Usually one is only concerned with changing one or two values for one or two weapons. Also, this allows for different values from gear adds, etc.. I already included the values for what I thought would be the most common gear setup. I did not include any adds on the G15s (Descent, Nirvana, Rank 8 Recast) as everyone has their own preferences.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · March 2012

What's the point of having a spreadsheet where you have to change every value to get a result, as opposed to a spreadsheet where you change one or two values and get the same result?

That's what Korrgan is asking violet.

violetvalor · March 2012

I am not trying to say my spreadsheet is the best, but I am just sharing what I use and like.

I do not see how one has to change so many values. For example, suppose I wanted to compare Rank 9 +12 against G15 +12 with SS, -0.05 Interval, and +1% Critical. To do it, I go down to the section for level 101. The values for Rank 9 +12 daggers with a common gear setup are already there. In the row for the G15 daggers which already has the values for a clean G15 +12 daggers with the same gear setup. I add 1 to the Crit % column, up the aps column from 2.86 to 3.33, and put 15 in the GoF/SS column. So I changed only three entries. Finally, I compare the result. I can compare average dph, dps (sparked and unsparked), bp heals (sparked and unsparked), and GoF/SS drain.

End-game weapons comparison

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