G13 or R8

To be very short....there are literally tons of threads addressing this specific question.

Ima be brief here, R8 is practically free once u get the rep. It hits hard. Has very nice spike dmg and @ 3.33 r8 +7 or higher in a 3.33+ aps sqd it'll take you 10-15 mins per run.
okay maybe 15-18 mins considering how some people with higher people on RT fail @ nirvy x.x

With 5 aps you'd have consistent damage and more importantly consistent bp heals. Which wont really matter as much if u plan to run nirvy most of the time.
You'd need to refine ur wep a bit which would put the cost as you said = to pan gu.

So what you should be considering is R8 @ 4.0 aps (with tome) vs 5 aps g13....and yea basically two sides of the same coin.

Both are good. Quite a lot of ppl prefer G13 simply cuz its 5 aps. Same thing really imo.

*That was longer than i hope'd it would be*

Btw...just search for G13 vs R8....or 4 aps r8 vs 5 aps G13

I'd point you to two type of threads. One is the mass amount of threads exactly like this, asking if people should spend there money on G13 or save it for a time and use R8 instead. The other is this one, asked earlier today, Need an Advice. They got G13, and now want R9 but feel like not getting G15 would be a waste because they invested so much in a non tradable weapon.

My personal route was R8 while I saved for tome, got the tome, went G15. R8 at 4.0 roughly equal to G13. Its actually better if G13 has only 1 sockets, all the way until +11 refines. If G13 has 2 sockets (10% chance) its better till +9. I think this is an even better route right now because on our server Ocean Orbs are 50+ mil, meaning its harder for people to highly refine a weapon and alot of people are sticking below +7, which favors the higher base damage of rank 8.

Yes, I was rejected from some squads for being "only" 4.0. I still am even though I am 4.0 zerk with +10 daggers... idiots, but I don't want to run with that type anyways. With R8 +7 (I stopped there) and knowing how to play I usually pulled aggro off G13+10 sins because not everyone knows how to WE properly and 4.0 is easier to time 15 seconds of spark, where alot of 5.0's spark before their previous one is used up.

so answer ME something similar but different.

I got a sin, why not skip R8 and Farm for Nirvy daggers ?

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/26598

(Figure i wouldn't start a whole new thread :-)

and are these worth making

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/26055

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Without any ambiguity, it's a bad idea. 200k rep is cheaper then 100 raps. While you get the 200k rep for the plate, you will have nearly free daggers and leggings that you can use at least temporarely. Those temporary daggers are actually pretty much the same quality as nirvana g13 daggers. If you get g13 nirvana's, you just have a weapon. Not to mention that the good points of those are the -0.1 int and the refine rate (said roughly : at low refines and without already a fair amount of -int gear, they suck pretty much).

Whenever I see a person who has Barrier Thorn: Nirvana and no R8, I kinda run away really fast and never return. So far I've seen two such people.

Defence is often simply factored out in theory, but everyone hates sins that die all the time. Sanctuary has 2 r9 sins that nobody wants in their nirvana squad, simply cause they waste all their time hugging the ground. Your situation would be similar if you were to fall in situation 2)

Two only? I suppose Astreon is one then.

The reason why I'm going for high DPS right now is mostly because:
1. Most of what I do I could do solo or can already tank
2. I'd need to invest much more in refines to hope to not die in Metal
3. I don't use Jones or O'Malley's so in a squad of comparably geared people, I won't have enough DPS to hold aggro.

Plus, being +6 refines with my gear is still better than what I've seen the average 5.0 sin have.

just look for one of the "g15 vs r9" threads.
in 99.99% of the cases, those daggers will be better then r8 or g13.

Interestingly: G15 with SS > R8
G15 with +20 Attack Level > R8
G15 with -0.05 interval > R8
G15 with GoF > R8

That already covers pretty much every single desirable G15 out there. As for G15 vs G13, it's a bit more a complicated question, mostly because the damage nerf makes things a bit wonky.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Before the super-mega-cheap "let's give r8 to everyone" action sale, the lvl60 rank plate with barrier thorn: nirvana was what most aimed for. Surprisingly nobody even aimed for the lvl90 rank plate, which was already very doable. Most of the exagerating about how great g13 daggers are come from that periode. It's really hard to get rid of the idea of the OP g13 daggers.

Of course, it might have been a valid argument in the past, but it's been quite a long time since the reputation sales started, so anyone who had G13 daggers before that would have already have more than ample time to farm rank 8, so there's really no excuse.

What I don't like is players with greatly outbalanced defence and attack. Some sin with crappy armor and crappy weap bothers me less then crappy armor and one of the best daggers in game. Ofc not everyone aims for overall +10 armor, but at least have armor match the attack...

I think the problem is less about people ignoring the armor and more about the costs. From what I've seen, most people seem to think that refining without dragon orbs is a waste. This means that they're paying ridiculous prices for their +1-6 refine, at the very least. With 5 pieces of armor to refine, they're paying really ridiculous prices. For example: refining all of your armor +1-6 with Dragon Orbs takes a total of 1,150 1* Orbs, which puts the cost at something around 72m. In comparison, you could use Tienkangs and expect to spend about 40m on it. For people like myself, who farmed DQs for Tienkangs, the refines are even cheaper.

I put "99.99%" because there can always be found exceptions and different opinions. You can always imagen someone with his first roll G15 with +3% crit and 2x +18 mag. And the "g13 has -0.1 int, thus it's the best, and thus g15 is not worth making" opinion is also pretty common.

Well, actually G15 loses to R8 pretty easily. For example, by scoring either 3% or 4% crit as the fixed mod and no -interval, R8 always wins. Odds of scoring such a roll is pretty high at about 46%.

As for G15: it's a good weapon. The problem that most people see with it is simple: It's unlikely to score 2x -0.05, thus you need to buy the tome. And at that point, you're talking about spending 600m+ on the weapon. At this kind of costs, most people would simply opt to refine their other gear. In fact, the two weapons that most benefit from the APS nerf are R9 dagger and G15.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's not an argument, it's the roots of g13 nirvana being considered as the ultimate cost/power efficient weapon. Even though it's been a while since that changed, I noticed the vast majority considers g13 as one of the first things to get. They don't even notice that they aren't good at all without other -int items and low refines. Opinions tend to change really slowly in this game.

Then again, there's a lot of historical fuzziness with Assassin weapons. Hitman Legend lost it's -0.1 interval and instead turned into -0.05 and we started out with no TT90s.

In fact, one of the reasons I originally rerolled from Archer to Assassin was that the TT99s had a green dagger with Pierce proc on it and I figured that would be good enough for an endgame weapon.

And the reason people don't "notice" isn't because they don't see, it's because they see it wrongly. For example, a lot of people outright assume that 3.33 aps base on a Demon is "good" dps. They then use those numbers as a basis and only compare things in terms of more and less.

Recently, someone asked in my faction's chat about whether they should buy a TT99 ornament or a single DoT. I then presented them with the exact numbers and reasons why the TT99 ornament would far out-do the DoT in terms of DPS, even without the prospect of -interval. Guess what the response was? "Well Jones' Blessing allows me to solo FCC, so maybe the DoT will let me do FCC 4-5 minutes faster"

However, the odds of someone keeping such a roll long enough to use them are extremely low...

Probably, as the G15s either get made when you have a stock of Raptures to reroll with, or during 2x when farming a reroll is a simple matter.

Actually, I know at least 1 sin that upgraded his g13 to g15 before getting a tome. Even though he went from 5 to 4 aps for a while, he didn't regret his choice. 5 aps has become more an obsession then any reasonable argument.

Of course, there's always exceptions. However, I am rather convinced that the reason the APS frenzy seems to be dying down a bit isn't because people are realizing that it's not the be-all-end-all answer, but rather because of R9 resulting in 2.86 sages and 4.0 demons.