Problems with Pole

Sylredrae - Sanctuary · March 2012

My barb has just hit lvl 80, so I took the occasion to try out bh69 with him. The squad was all 80ish - two venos, a mystic, a cleric and an archer. While he only really needed nob and pyro, someone in squad needed pole, so we decided to try to kill him too. My barb is a vit build with 70ish 2* and 3* gear (just hit 80), 9.6k max hp and 9000 physical defense with tiger form and cleric buff (there was no BM in squad). I admit it, my barb's gear is not the best and I can't afford TT80, but I did believe that maybe I could do it since he has good hp to compensate somewhat. I've seen barbs with similar gear tank pole and nob before and succeeded, although it was with a different cleric.

Anyways, pyro was easy, and then came nob and pole. There I used the same skills I usually do to tank bosses - I spammed flesh ream, bestial rage and alacrity of the beast... sometimes I threw in devour if I had spare chi. No one stole aggro. Before we faced nob and pole, I told the cleric to puri me. However, at some point nob managed to cast his debuff on me. I ate some hp food and asked for puri. Cleric didn't give it to me. She just continued to spam IH, but it wasn't enough and my health was dropping fast. After several seconds of waiting for a puri, I invoked. It saved my life. Nob's debuff wore off on its own and we managed to kill nob.

I asked the cleric why she didn't puri. She said: "I've never purified on nob before." b:shocked

I told her this time I would absolutely need puri on pole. It went along just fine until pole managed to hit me with his debuff... which pretty much shot my physical defence down to 0. Pole killed me in three or four hits. I think I lasted for a grand total of 3-4 seconds before I died. On the first attempt I counted on the cleric's puri to save me. She didn't... I figured that maybe I died too fast for her to react, so we let pole reset and tried again. On the second attempt I managed to last slightly longer with hp food. About 4 seconds later, I was dead. I tried to channel invoke as my hp dropped but I died before I could pull it off. Pole reset and one of the venos said in squad chat that we couldn't kill pole as is.

I want to know if it's because of the cleric that we failed to kill pole... or if it's because I failed as a tank. Playing a barb is not really my style but it's a nice change. Before this bh69, I tanked everything without a problem and with very little or no aggro stealing.

How long is an 80ish barb supposed to last with nob or pole's debuff before the cleric purifies? Is there anything I did wrong? If yes, what can I do to improve? The squad knew that it was my first time tanking bh69 as barb.

Euthymius - Heavens Tear · March 2012

You'd be very hard-pressed to survive against him when your MDef/Pdef get reduced to almost nothing. Aside from Invoke/Solid Shield or a Frighten when possible, there's not much you could do skill-wise to survive him while debuffed.

You can usually cancel it if your timing's good (lv 8 or so Alacrity would be necessary) as it usually debuffs after 4-5 normal attacks. This is something the Cleric should learn as well, so that she can be ready to Purify just as it begins channeling (in case you fail/miss a cancel).

I'm not the type to place blame on anyone in a situation I played no part in, so I hope those tips at least help...

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear · March 2012

easy way to survive pole/nob is to cancel all his channeling with alacrity (every 10 secs - at least lvl7 alacrity)... but that would take a lot of practice to get it to 100% perfection... until then, you should verify that you have a good cleric in your squad everytime you do a BH.

there are also other solutions... like use the genie skill absolute domain, use tw immunity pots, have hp charms, but they are expensive and not recommended on a long term basis... b:shutup

_Mg_Zr - Heavens Tear · March 2012

This is probably the only instance left were a cleric is needed so Always take care when choosing clerics

WnbTank - Archosaur · March 2012

You didnt exactly fail, what you did was average play and that is just fine. Average play gets you trough dungeons as long as somebody in squad isnt complete fail, which is where you need to do something "special". Cancelling all casts is good play and would of gotten you trough the boss but I wouldnt call that any normal standard - expecting such players in BH squads is simply ludicrous.

But I guess I should try to give some advice, other than cancelling every cast. If you get cursed on pole, just hit Solid Shield on as it will give close enough dmg reduction to what you would have if you werent cursed & shielded. That is waste of Genie stamina with good cleric but it`s hard to know good or even average clerics from bad ones w/o wiping first =p. And I myself would never use AD on Pole as SS will reduce the dmg taken enough for IH spam to keep you alive fine - The relevant difference is duration as SS last pretty much double to what AD does. And never forget frighten when cursed on Pole - Cutting poles dmg with buff and debuff makes living with bad clerics not such a horrible task.

Empu - Sanctuary · March 2012

Sylredrae - Sanctuary wrote: »

My barb is a vit build with 70ish 2* and 3* gear (just hit 80), 9.6k max hp and 9000 physical defense with tiger form and cleric buff (there was no BM in squad). I admit it, my barb's gear is not the best and I can't afford TT80, but I did believe that maybe I could do it since he has good hp to compensate somewhat. I've seen barbs with similar gear tank pole and nob before and succeeded, although it was with a different cleric.

This gear is good enough to tank pole, don't worry about that. Lately gear seems to be the first thing to be blamed, and squads often act like bh lvl range (which is usually 10~19 lvls above that of the cave) with the best gear for those lvls is a minimum to do about anything. A good 70s squad can do pole and nob without genies. I tanked pole on my barb in 70s, before bh and genies were around. Even poor barbs have better gear then what we had back then.

Like suggested several times, the only thing you should actually do (or at least try) is to cancel bosses channeling. Probably a side effect of better gear + genies + blessings + running only stuff 10+ lvls below players lvls, you don't have to cancel (DD can survive aoe's easily, and a mag attack won't 1 shot you like the old days) so you're used to just spam flesh ream like mad ... Till pole shows up b:laugh The panda above gave some good tips, I can't think of more that you could do besides getting a hp charm (which is probably a big cost for not much, and it will litterally be drained if you run into a bad cleric).

Pretty much the same goes for the cleric. They can go with just spam IH or BB, untill pole and nob show up. From when I did BH69 with my cleric (which was before seekers, so don't know about def lvls affecting this), I noticed that 8k+ hp tank made pole rather easy (purify when debuff is cast). Between 5k and 8k hp tank was possible, but need to hit purify before the debuff is cast, so you purge it off as soon as it lands on the tank. In any case, the tank should be purified. I've even seen some good geared 100+ barbs go down because the cleric thought he/she could just spam IH with such a solid tank.

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver · March 2012

The others gave good advice on this. I will point out that it wasn't you that failed. That was the failure of your cleric. SHE failed at her duties with purify. You asked her repeatedly to purify you on Nob, and then asked her again to purify you on Pole. Certain bosses require purify in order to be a successful run. Others require it in order to ensure that bonecrushing painful moves are not dealt. Bh69 has both of these.

I have to admit that I raged some on the inside when I saw your post about what she did. Please knock her out, and drag her to my guide. She needs it horribly. Its VERY RARE that I kick a player, but she would have gotten kicked. If you won't purify me on a boss that is debuffing, and you're doing this intentionally, because you can't bother to purify, then you can't bother to get your bh done, or join the squad, so I'd warn her first, and then kick to get another cleric. I've healed/purified seekers, barbs, blademasters, and sins through Pole with my purify being timed right, so a cleric that won't do it just because should be kicked. That's my take on it. Take care. Good luck in game, and try to avoid the failing players of the game.

Wild_Garruk - Harshlands · March 2012

Well you know u can cancel the debuff of pole and nob when you use alacrity of the beast since it cancels channel skills so you can last longer.. I tanked my own bh69 with 1 bm and 1 cleric... ohh I used lvl 70 armor so yeah u can tank it but the trick is when you use your skills right it does not matter if the cleric uses IH all the time.. U can use absolute domain to endure the damage...

also if you have a sin tell him to use rib strike to lower the attack rate of the boss so you can tank it..

I love playing with my barb is good to do instances

ItsAWolf - Archosaur · March 2012

I really frequently see people mention canceling pole's debuff, but for some reason I never seem to be able to cancel it. The AoE he casts is perfectly cancelable for me, but whatever I do, he always manages to cast his debuff. Whether I use alacrity or earthquake, it seems to always get me, so my advice is get a decent cleric. A lvl 60 barb in 2/3 star gear can tank pole if the cleric purifies on time.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide · March 2012

In my experiences, it was all the cleric's fault in your squad. It's simple, if the barb doesn't get purified, the barb dies. The hits are just too damn hard with pdef reduced to nil.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · March 2012

I think everyone seems to have brought up you can cancel Pole and Nob every round with Alacrity, and that Earthquake is a good backup for that too if your timing is off and you need to let Alacrity reset its cooldown.

Also, bring a BM, they can back you up cancel wise with Shadowless Kick and Earthquake.

I really think the cleric was inexperienced on top of that.

In the end all of this happens, just a matter of everyone getting their timing down, which takes some practice. I kinda miss the days in my 70's and 80's, pre-aps days, with my Barb and BM making sure I was on top of the timing. Even with old school lightning chaser.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide · March 2012

Well non-aps barbs have slow attacks, so by the time we see the channeling and react, we have to finish our last hit + lag and then channel the skill....... By the time it hits it's too late. Some bosses I can cancel with Alacrity, but I don't bother with it because I'd rather take the hit and just keep up Devour debuff or keeping aggro with FR.

Also, there are some bosses like Wurlord in 2-2 that Alacrity just doesn't work on him. I'd pull him, drag him all expertly to the rest of the squad (avoiding BB heal aggro like a boss) then quickly run to him and hit with Alacrity and it wouldn't cancel his channeling.... $:\$ But I think it did cancel his channeling once he was done running and we were smacking him.

Empu - Sanctuary · March 2012

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well non-aps barbs have slow attacks, so by the time we see the channeling and react, we have to finish our last hit + lag and then channel the skill....... By the time it hits it's too late. Some bosses I can cancel with Alacrity, but I don't bother with it because I'd rather take the hit and just keep up Devour debuff or keeping aggro with FR.

Thing is you have to hit the skill before the boss starts cancelling. Some did it on the cooldown of lvl7 alacrity, others did it on counting. The ability to succesfully cancel (nearly) all magic attacks was one of the main criteria in the old days for the qualification of "good barb". It's a pitty that these days tanking is seen as either spark macro or fleshream spam.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

Also, there are some bosses like Wurlord in 2-2 that Alacrity just doesn't work on him. I'd pull him, drag him all expertly to the rest of the squad (avoiding BB heal aggro like a boss) then quickly run to him and hit with Alacrity and it wouldn't cancel his channeling.... $:\$ But I think it did cancel his channeling once he was done running and we were smacking him.

All magic attacks can be cancelled. Wurlord was one of those bosses it was very important on to cancel all his magic attacks, cause he could 1 shot barbs through BB. My guess is that you have that little lag problem when you run back while hitting alacrity. I always run back with keys, and hit alacrity only when I'm next to him.

Actually, I don't know any boss that you can't cancel the channeling off with alacrity (if timed right). You can even cancel wyverns aoe+curse and drake's magic attack. Problem is the timing, cause those bosses only sign of the special attack is a slightly different hit animation. I believe it's in one of the old guides too...

b:chuckle sorry for nostalgic post

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide · March 2012

While I would say a large part of the blame is to be placed on the cleric for not purifying, there is more that you could have done yourself. As others have mentioned, you could have cancelled the channeling of the debuff. There are a few genie skills, whether you had them or not, that could have helped you. (AD and Solid Shield). It's a good idea to always have the sparks needed for Invoke on those fights, and to use it at the right time. Keeping frighten up constantly helps too. A sin with rib strike could have bought you some more time as well to get a successful Invoke off.

TL;DR Your group could have done it if at least one of you was performing above "average".

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · March 2012

If you have access to a faction base, use the Uneven Training pot. It's very cheap makes tanking pole pretty easy even without cleric.

Sylredrae - Sanctuary · March 2012

I think I'll go for getting solid shield, cloud eruption and if I can afford it, AD. My barb has a genie close to his lvl due to my genie-making habits. I don't really aim to be a pro barb that can work miracles with a fail squad since I'm so used to playing casters. This is an alt after all... but all I want at the very least is to be an acceptable, decent tank.

If my barb can tank pole with his current gear, I'll keep it until I can snag something better off the AH. Cancelling wise I can say that it's my first time... it'll be a while before I get the hang of it, but as far as I know, only the best of barbs can keep pole and nob from debuffing them at all without great DD speeding things up. When I was an 80ish cleric, almost all barbs fell under the debuff at least once.

I try to time alacrity with channeling but more often than not I just spam it because I'm starving for chi. Problem is, if I don't spam FR, someone will steal aggro, especially sins and archers. I don't take any chances with them in squad, so I spam FR like a maniac to prevent ping pong aggro. I dunno if I was lucky in this case, but Nob only debuffed me once the whole time, and pole was at 50% health when he first landed the axe on me. Their health was going down slowly the whole time; this wasn't a fast squad, so I think I succeeded a few times at canceling the debuff.

I guess I'll have to do my best to cancel it when I can, and then eat hp food/use genie when the debuff does come. Any idea how to cancel the debuff and not the aoe? The aoe has an obvious channeling that I can cancel, but I want to know what to watch out for when they're about to debuff other than 'wait five attacks.'

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · March 2012

Sylredrae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I guess I'll have to do my best to cancel it when I can, and then eat hp food/use genie when the debuff does come. Any idea how to cancel the debuff and not the aoe? The aoe has an obvious channeling that I can cancel, but I want to know what to watch out for when they're about to debuff other than 'wait five attacks.'

I believe the channeling is the same animation for the debuff and the aoe on Pole and Nob.

Also, I don't think people mentioned Soulcleanse Orbs. You can only use one because of apo cooldown, but it could be a lifesaver. As a barb I habitually watch behind me and know the cleric animation. If I don't see the cleric channeling purify (looks like kind of a blue snowflake spinning) then I would eat one.

I'm curious, and this may be just as dangerous, if you could use frenzy as a sort of purify. Frenzy is a double-edged sword and gives you an attack level boost but debuffs your defenses in the same way but with no icon. It lasts only about 8 seconds so just an idea but casting it during a debuff would help you keep aggro and 8 seconds later you'd be purified. Like I said, dangerous but maybe it'd work.

Empu - Sanctuary · March 2012

Sylredrae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I try to time alacrity with channeling but more often than not I just spam it because I'm starving for chi. Problem is, if I don't spam FR, someone will steal aggro, especially sins and archers. I don't take any chances with them in squad, so I spam FR like a maniac to prevent ping pong aggro. I dunno if I was lucky in this case, but Nob only debuffed me once the whole time, and pole was at 50% health when he first landed the axe on me. Their health was going down slowly the whole time; this wasn't a fast squad, so I think I succeeded a few times at canceling the debuff.

I guess I'll have to do my best to cancel it when I can, and then eat hp food/use genie when the debuff does come. Any idea how to cancel the debuff and not the aoe? The aoe has an obvious channeling that I can cancel, but I want to know what to watch out for when they're about to debuff other than 'wait five attacks.'

The aoe and the debuff are the same casting. I actually think that each time he casts, it's an x% chance it is the aoe and an (100-x)% chance it is the debuff. Sometimes he barely debuffs, other times you get debuffed each 10sec.

You can put 2 flesh reams between each magic attack. You will use FR almost as much as when you spam it actually. You just don't hit it like a maniac, just like clerics shouldn't hit IH like mad on pole/nob because it will make them late for purify.

I always counted, since my connection isn't that speedy and my pc not that new b:laugh Other then that, you can keep alacrity at lvl7 (which was very pupular in the old days). Since it's 10sec, you could also spam crab meats and use their cd as timer (but that will make you use a lot). Problem is, when you hit alacrity when you see the circle, you're usually to late. You can also use earth quake to cancel. Genie skills don't have that channel + casting delai like normal skills, so you should be on time if you hit it as soon as you see the circle.

WnbTank - Archosaur · March 2012

Sylredrae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think I'll go for getting solid shield, cloud eruption and if I can afford it, AD. My barb has a genie close to his lvl due to my genie-making habits. I don't really aim to be a pro barb that can work miracles with a fail squad since I'm so used to playing casters. This is an alt after all... but all I want at the very least is to be an acceptable, decent tank.

You are that and I myself wish I could of found barbs that decent on my alts(Found 1), well my sin just got 99 = not such an alt anymore, lol. Cancelling all is something that comes with experience but it`s nuts how efficient it is. We had afk cleric(not BBing) in TT2-3, veno pulled wurlord and I tanked it on my TT90 green uncharmed - w/o aps in squad, well 8x sin. I burned everything, even apo CD to live it trough but damn it felt good to pull it off.

Sylredrae - Sanctuary wrote: »

If my barb can tank pole with his current gear, I'll keep it until I can snag something better off the AH. Cancelling wise I can say that it's my first time... it'll be a while before I get the hang of it, but as far as I know, only the best of barbs can keep pole and nob from debuffing them at all without great DD speeding things up. When I was an 80ish cleric, almost all barbs fell under the debuff at least once.

I try to time alacrity with channeling but more often than not I just spam it because I'm starving for chi. Problem is, if I don't spam FR, someone will steal aggro, especially sins and archers. I don't take any chances with them in squad, so I spam FR like a maniac to prevent ping pong aggro. I dunno if I was lucky in this case, but Nob only debuffed me once the whole time, and pole was at 50% health when he first landed the axe on me. Their health was going down slowly the whole time; this wasn't a fast squad, so I think I succeeded a few times at canceling the debuff.

I guess I'll have to do my best to cancel it when I can, and then eat hp food/use genie when the debuff does come. Any idea how to cancel the debuff and not the aoe? The aoe has an obvious channeling that I can cancel, but I want to know what to watch out for when they're about to debuff other than 'wait five attacks.'

There was some solid advice on cancelling already but let me add 1 last thing. When you feel like the skill should come in few secs, stop attacking and wait for the circle so you have better window of timing it as you dont have to wait for the last attack to finish. I dont suggest you just sit there and cancel but it`s a neat "trick" when you lose the timer on cancel. Somebody said that Pole picks the cast on random and my experience somewhat confirms that - I think it`s 50-50 chance.

Sylredrae - Sanctuary · March 2012

Went into bh69 again and made use of your suggestions. I'm not a pro at cancelling stuff yet so pole still lands the axe every now and then, but I do my best and I think that's what counts. Pole still kills me whenever the debuff lands and I don't get purified, but I lasted much longer. Solid shield helps a ton! I think I'm also going to add "Kick out cleric if they refuse to purify and get another cleric or a sin/BM/barb/whatever to solo." One bh69 went beautifully with pole because the cleric purified me just as the debuff hit. No problems, smooth run, easy tanking! So yeah, I guess I am not a fail barb after all.

Another bh69 (about one or two days ago) ended with the almost the whole squad dead and the cleric (different from the one in the original post) leaving because "you guys should really know when to pot." We were facing pole... she had no clue that pots don't work so well when pole hits tanks for 3k+ damage a hit.

I don't mean to sound hypocritical or like a whiner, but either I have horrid luck with clerics or the hyper phenomenon is more common than I believe. Should I ask clerics if they know what to do on nob/pole? b:surrender

WnbTank - Archosaur · March 2012

Sylredrae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't mean to sound hypocritical or like a whiner, but either I have horrid luck with clerics or the hyper phenomenon is more common than I believe. Should I ask clerics if they know what to do on nob/pole? b:surrender

It`s what I have to do whenever I feel like doing Endless Universe. Ask if cleric has done it before if he/she needs help. Dont tell ppl how to play their classes if not asked as that is something quite irritating. But offer help if cleric needs it and If he/she keep failing when you have tried to help - Just kick the idiot. The FC noobs exist in every single class, it`s just terrible clerics make 69 cave a hell - It`s about whom`s mistakes show.

TheFire - Lost City · March 2012

you did just fine...your healer on the other hand epic fail.even if al of your party members are lvl 80,barb + healer vs pole and nob..go to the barb and healer if thay know wht there doing .barb need to invoke as much as you can when you can and your healer needs to purfiy and ih only.th way thay used to be done was the healer would heal no one but the barb and every one eles would pot.if your going to run 69 cave with out a high lvl this is how its got to be(but you dont need a high lvl to do it).next time if the healer dont purify get a new healer.in my mind the blame goes on the healer

Xainou - Sanctuary · March 2012

You did pretty fine. The cleric however, failed in epic measures.

You simply can't expect anyone before 100 to live those bosses without purify. It will crush you. The only persons I seen live pole without purify were 4.0 or 5.0 so they had the chi to time to spark to get rid of the debuff.

Sorry, but a cleric that doesn't purify even after being asked to is pretty much useless. b:surrender

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