Impact vs Tangling Mire.
Lorthos - Raging Tide
Posts: 41 Arc User
So, Im happy to say my genie is 72/90 and I'm wondering what I may do with that extra skill slot if it get it 82/100.
I've already chosen Extreme Poison over Tangling Mire due to the fact that :
PHY DEF reduction is < 20% More damage.
Anyways, My first thought was to just get mire again with the new slot. and stack them.
But someone recently mentioned Impact is cheap and spammable compared to Mire.
And I can possibly give a constant 10% damage increase with Impact that Mire cannot.
Anyone wanna validate or deny this?
I've already chosen Extreme Poison over Tangling Mire due to the fact that :
PHY DEF reduction is < 20% More damage.
Anyways, My first thought was to just get mire again with the new slot. and stack them.
But someone recently mentioned Impact is cheap and spammable compared to Mire.
And I can possibly give a constant 10% damage increase with Impact that Mire cannot.
Anyone wanna validate or deny this?
Post edited by Lorthos - Raging Tide on
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Comments
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You will want Mire on your genie.
If/when you get Demon/Sage Subsea, comboing Subsea with Mire will be the best way to increase your DPS.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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What Olbaze said.
Also, STR affects Tangling Mire's effect so if you have a high STR genie, it will be even better. And Subsea Strike cancels Extreme's Poison effect so Tangling Mire > Extreme Poison.0 -
Not to mention that some bosses are immune to Extreme Poison while Tanglin Mire works always.The only way to beat a troll is....to troll him back b:angry0
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yeah what everyone else said. xD101/101/102
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what he said :>yeah what everyone else said. xD0 -
MareAssassin - Lost City wrote: »What Olbaze said.
Also, STR affects Tangling Mire's effect so if you have a high STR genie, it will be even better. And Subsea Strike cancels Extreme's Poison effect so Tangling Mire > Extreme Poison.
Subsea doesn't cancel EP, instead EP blocks Subsea from amping and is not overwritten. Neither EP or Subsea can be overwritten so the first amp on is there until it wears off, and the next amp can't be placed until the first one is gone.BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »Not to mention that some bosses are immune to Extreme Poison while Tanglin Mire works always.
Yes, but some boss (like CoA bosses) have 0 defense and so with a 35% pdef debuff of Tangling Mire is still 0 pdef. Not to mention that Tangling Mire can only be cast (by one person) 10 seconds out of 30 seconds, so effectively TM works less than 1/3 the time
Just playing the devil's advocate, not that I actually think either skill is bad. Impact I think kind of sucks... Remember, 10% less pdef is not a 10% increase in damage. Its more like 6%. Combine that with the 20% amp of EP like you suggested you are up to 7.2% more damage and have an almost empty genie.
The real benefit of EP is its spammability, because if you are about to die hitting EP means 20% bloodpaint heals so it becomes almost a permanent offensive and defensive bump of 20%. It also means you get almost the effect of Subsea without having to use Inner Harmony or take the almost 2 seconds to cast. The real benefit of Tangling Mire is non ampable bosses and when you are running with multiple sins. Most sins either have EP or are willing to Subsea so combining a 20% amp with roughly a 40% pdef debuf really increases everyones damage.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Saku explained most of it all.
It's purely situational. If you find yourself in situations where you tend to use Mire more or are in a place with non-ampable bosses, then go with Mire.
Vice versa with EP.
But just don't forget that the base level 10 EP lasts only 6 seconds and is single target, while mire is 10 and has a 15 meter AoE to it. Sure EP is spammable, but with the standard 2 energy/sec regen rate with a standard 150 vit genie, that's only 18 seconds of continuous amping, or 24 if you time 2 per spark (12 sec each).
Where as mire can can used for 52 energy for 10 seconds, while being spammed with EP.
I'm biased towards having both of them on one genie. It works well with a demon's WE, as for the first spark of it, or 15 seconds of demon WE's effect, you could have the stacked amp of a 10 second mire with a 6 second EP, and on the 2nd spark/last 15 seconds of WE, have 2 EP's going to town.
But that's just for a standard basic 150 energy and 2 energy/sec regen rate genie. My current PvE genie allows me to Mire, Frenzy, and EP in one spark, and EP in the 2nd spark.
The main downside to EP is its short duration and single-targetness, but the upsides are the higher amp and its domination over Mire when there's only a single target to attack.
The main downside to Mire is its long cooldown and its lesser-debuff compared to EP, as well as its uselessness when a mob/boss has 0 p def, but the upsides are the debuff duration, and its capabilities to AoE a group, which is very useful for FC and popping sins out of stealth/AoEing a group in PvP.
If you're really bent on just choosing one, I'd go with EP and stat the genie to have 10 dex so that EP lasts a second longer.[SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
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I would like to point out that I choose EP also because my genie has 100 dex and that makes EP last a great 16 seconds b:pleased0
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I have both mire and impact. Impact is very nice to be able to use when mire is in cool down and no1 else in the squad has half a brain to cast mire after yours. You can use impact and utilize the damage. Its also a water skill, very nice on all those fire bosses in Nirvana. If you have the extra slot, I'd use both
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Lorthos - Raging Tide wrote: »I would like to point out that I choose EP also because my genie has 100 dex and that makes EP last a great 16 seconds b:pleased
O..O Overkill x.x
Curious, wai so much dex? Just for EP? or you stuck thunderstorm on ur genie too o.O0 -
I use Mire, EP and Frenzy (situational, if I'm in a squad that has another sin who can subsea, I use mire and frenzy, if someone uses Mire I'll EP and frenzy etc.)
The big benefit of EP over Subsea, and I'm surprised Olbaze didn't point this out tbh, is that using subsea it makes it extremely difficult to spark AND PD combo cause by the end of it something's pretty much spent whether it's PD, Subsea or spark, that also leaves no energy on genie for Mire anyway because you are better off time-wise using Cloud Eruption than Rising Dragon.
So by using EP you can still PD combo and get near subsea amp, along with TM or Frenzy.0 -
Kiiria - Raging Tide wrote: »The big benefit of EP over Subsea, and I'm surprised Olbaze didn't point this out tbh, is that using subsea it makes it extremely difficult to spark AND PD combo cause by the end of it something's pretty much spent whether it's PD, Subsea or spark, that also leaves no energy on genie for Mire anyway because you are better off time-wise using Cloud Eruption than Rising Dragon.
Using Subsea would most often mean you're not going to use PD. Using Subsea + PD + Spark means you've just put all of your chi skills into cooldown, which might not be a good idea unless you're 4-5 aps. Especially since the channel and cast animations mean that you'll pretty much be forced to waste a good portion of each.
If you want to use Subsea and PD, it'd be best to take turns, so that during 1 spark you use PD and the next Subsea.So by using EP you can still PD combo and get near subsea amp, along with TM or Frenzy.
PD and EP would often result in at least ~57% more DPS, whereas Subsea would give you alone 30%. That, however, is only applicable to yourself and if you're not the primary DD or the squad has lots of DD to begin with, Subsea would be better, especially if it's Demon/Sage.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Using Subsea would most often mean you're not going to use PD. Using Subsea + PD + Spark means you've just put all of your chi skills into cooldown, which might not be a good idea unless you're 4-5 aps. Especially since the channel and cast animations mean that you'll pretty much be forced to waste a good portion of each.
Even if you're 4-5 aps, you spend most time casting and will most likely end up having done only a few hits before the list of amps/debuffs is reduced to 2~3 (or even have a dead boss). Wether it's demon or sage, high or low aps, the best choice is often to spark then use PD or Subsea with whatever genie combo you like most.
Personally, I use PD most. Since most bms kinda fail at HF timing, and since there is a very big chance for someone casting EP (or demon subsea) before I would, I find PD the better choice. If in good squads (read "friends I often run with", and not a specific aps/refine requirement), I do use sage subsea mainly on the fox boss, runner boss and chest boss.
A side-note : I once was in a nirvana with a sin who didn't want me to use sage subsea, under the argument that his demon subsea is better even though we had a squad that killed all amp'able bosses below 10sec b:chuckle0 -
Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »Even if you're 4-5 aps, you spend most time casting and will most likely end up having done only a few hits before the list of amps/debuffs is reduced to 2~3 (or even have a dead boss). Wether it's demon or sage, high or low aps, the best choice is often to spark then use PD or Subsea with whatever genie combo you like most.
Well my point with 4-5 aps was more that you need 4-5 aps to even be able to use Subsea and PD while maintaining permaspark.
As for the durations, it's true with Demon Subsea being the sole exception. But even then I wouldn't go there.A side-note : I once was in a nirvana with a sin who didn't want me to use sage subsea, under the argument that his demon subsea is better even though we had a squad that killed all amp'able bosses below 10sec b:chuckle
That is rather funny.
Considering the effect duration and cooldowns, Sage Subsea gives an average of ~13.3% more damage, whereas Demon gives 15%, but that is only true if it takes at least 30 seconds to kill. Take 20 and it's 20% for Sage and 22.5% for Demon. At 15 seconds, we're talking 26.7% for Sage and 30% for Demon. At anything less than 15 seconds, Sage>Demon.
Or simplified a bit:
Longer fights benefit more from Demon Subsea, shorter benefit more from Sage SubseaI am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Considering the effect duration and cooldowns, Sage Subsea gives an average of ~13.3% more damage, whereas Demon gives 15%, but that is only true if it takes at least 30 seconds to kill. Take 20 and it's 20% for Sage and 22.5% for Demon. At 15 seconds, we're talking 26.7% for Sage and 30% for Demon. At anything less than 15 seconds, Sage>Demon.
Or simplified a bit:
Longer fights benefit more from Demon Subsea, shorter benefit more from Sage Subsea
Tried to explain this a while ago when I commented in a sage vs demon thread that "its debatable which one is better" and talked about killing speed on bosses. But there is so much sage-pride in our forums that the argument kept coming back to "50% > 30% sage wins!!!! *nerdrage*" despite me trying to argue that really, honestly, it happens, some bosses take longer than 15 seconds to kill.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Tried to explain this a while ago when I commented in a sage vs demon thread that "its debatable which one is better" and talked about killing speed on bosses. But there is so much sage-pride in our forums that the argument kept coming back to "50% > 30% sage wins!!!! *nerdrage*" despite me trying to argue that really, honestly, it happens, some bosses take longer than 15 seconds to kill.
Though, just as it's true that a longer fight benefits more from Demon Subsea than Sage Subsea, there is a point after which using PD and EP is more effective. That point depends mostly on the build of your genie.
Though I am not going to go into determining that point, because the aspect of genie spammability makes it far too complex to bother with.
Though, if you can get away with permanent EP somehow, that would be better than either Sage or Demon Subsea.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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My dex genie has a 16 second long EP with 2 energy/sec regen rate and 156 energy to begin with.
If I use it once per spark, and wait 3 seconds between each (for spark animation), then I'm only using ~12 energy on my genie per EP.
That equates to 9 EPs before I have to wait 1 second more before using it again, so let's say in between those 9 times I managed to have an extra second, for deviation standards. So 10 EPs in 10 sparks.
That's a good 2 minutes and 40 seconds of EP for myself. But then again I don't think many sins would go around making my kind of genie.
Which brings me to another question, as I've not tested this before. I'm sure it's been answered before, but it's relevant to this thread.
If a poison amp has been cast, and another is cast right after, does the 2nd one overwrite the first one in terms of amp? I know the time doesn't get overwritten, but does the amp get overwritten?
For example, Sage SS is a 50% amp for 8 seconds. Is it possible that I can EP right before a sage sin SS's, and make it a 16 second long Sage SS?[SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
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Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »But there is so much sage-pride in our forums
It's not a new phenomenon that forums, surveys and such, attract those who are not happy with what is often called "the common stupidity". Probably in a vain attempt to "proof" there are other ways to think, and they will usually tend to take the opposite position.
In other words, if ingame the number off "demon spark > everything" decreases, you will see the "sage-pride" on forums decrease as well.Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Though, if you can get away with permanent EP somehow, that would be better than either Sage or Demon Subsea.
Imo, what matters most is simply how the squad manages to time and adjust their debuffs/amps with the rest of squad. All the rest is just intellectual speculation actually._Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »If a poison amp has been cast, and another is cast right after, does the 2nd one overwrite the first one in terms of amp? I know the time doesn't get overwritten, but does the amp get overwritten?
For example, Sage SS is a 50% amp for 8 seconds. Is it possible that I can EP right before a sage sin SS's, and make it a 16 second long Sage SS?
As far as I know, it's the first that counts and you have to wait till it runs out before any new can take effect. This is one of the reasons I usually just go with PD, cause it doesn't have that problem (unless there is one of those annoying demon barbs around that doesn't ask/can't time his titans).
I believe veno amp is the same, while HF doesn't have that problem. Not sure though.0 -
Deep Poison debuff is like stun, does not refresh the old buff.0
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Eh, this isn't solo, but... my favorite combo in nirvana on hfable bosses is to take a bm alt and a cleric alt.
-position all 3 characters about 25meters from boss
-run in with assassin and bm and start auto attacking (just a couple hits)
-40% physical defense debuff from cleric, lasts 25s
-triple spark on sin; inner harmony, wolf emblem, tangling mire, power dash, frenzy
-hf on bm
-extreme poison on cleric x 2
-do physical debuff again on cleric in preparation for the next spark cycle
*next spark*
-sin triple sparks, frenzies
-bm tangling mires
-cleric extreme poison x 2
REPEAT above if needed.
Boss is usually close to dead at this point. On the first boss, I sometimes ask a veno 'oh please, could you do your veno amp for me', and when that occurs, boss dies completely before the 2nd spark ends. This is just my damage that is being amplified, my bm's damage is negligible.
In TT, its often faster on some bosses to not bring the cleric, and just hf on the bm while using the skills on assassin genie. Power dash > subsea, because hf and tangling mire and extreme poison all do not last nearly as long as power dash. I stack all of these debuffs into the 8 seconds of power dash, its significantly more damage than if I used subsea.
Side note: not sure if I can still do this with the 5% damage loss.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Azizsixer - Raging Tide wrote: »O..O Overkill x.x
Curious, wai so much dex? Just for EP? or you stuck thunderstorm on ur genie too o.O
Nah, I know It's nab, but with 100 Dex, I get a 7 second Holy path, 13% more Damage reduction from Windshield AS WELL as 2 more seconds of +10% aps increase, a 16 second EP, annnnd 2k more damage on my Bramble rage xD_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »My dex genie has a 16 second long EP with 2 energy/sec regen rate and 156 energy to begin with.
If I use it once per spark, and wait 3 seconds between each (for spark animation), then I'm only using ~12 energy on my genie per EP.
That equates to 9 EPs before I have to wait 1 second more before using it again, so let's say in between those 9 times I managed to have an extra second, for deviation standards. So 10 EPs in 10 sparks.
That's a good 2 minutes and 40 seconds of EP for myself. But then again I don't think many sins would go around making my kind of genie.
I do b:laugh0 -
@Lorthos It's not nab at all. Those are perfectly valid reason to have a 100 dex genie. Fortify and BoC are great in how good they work with 100 dex. Most people laugh at the idea of an extra second of holy path, but in reality that's 1 more second of 15 m/s speed, which equates to another 15 meters further than a normal HP. And it's quite noticeable. For example, here I am able to catch my target holy pathing away twice to Distance Shrinking with a further running away with two 7 second long holy paths.
I love genies, which is why I have a 100 strength one, a 100 magic one, and a 100 dex one.
The 75/90 Discipline that I had turned into 78/100, so the 100 vit genie won't be around anytime soon.[SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
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Ahhh I see....I'm still working on getting my first genie to lvl 100...then 101 -_-
But it it a really great reason to have 100 dex on a genie
I'm sure a 100 str genie + occult = pwnage as well
*pokes Skai* look a Damascene ore o.o!
*steals genie*
lol Nice genies btw...i'm curious again, as a sin does anyone frequently use Expel on their genie? I mean i added it on the my secondary genie along with AD (when it was a party buff) to save teh gf (a cleric) when she was in delta/tt/general trbl since she loves to get aggro and just expel her (or sometimes expel her as she demon sprk for wickedness) but now with most ppl turning on their buff filters (or turning it off still don't understand how that works i just uncheck everything to be safe), is it really worth having expel take up a spot?0 -
In PvP yes, when Assassins higher level than you pop on you and try to APS you. I still find it useful for that. In Delta it's useful in saving people like high aoe channel DDs or the Cleric.
Another use that's a bit mean if the other player doesn't have their buff filters on is when they're against you in something like CoA or a Tiger event, you can expel them after they spark. Personally I've never done that, but I have had it happen to me once or twice, when I accidentally forgot to check the filter.
It's also very useful on a 100 magic genie, as it has a low cooldown. For someone like me, the people who pop me are only 104+ sins, and all 104+ sins on my server that would attack me are r9+12, so popping expel quickly is needed to survive, if you didn't get 1 shot.
I got Expel on my Dex genie because it lasts 11 seconds. But I haven't used it once yet so far.[SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
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That's exactly what I'm talking about...I mean in theory having it makes sense...but the actual practical use of it is nonexistent x.x
Any sin higher lvl that me atkin would 1 shot me anyway
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As a final note: Over time, Tangling Mire will be superior to Impact.
Impact has a 10 second duration, during which pdef is reduced by 10%, with a 20 second cooldown. This means that the average pdef of the enemy will be at 95% of their normal value.
Tangling Mire has a 10 second duration, during which pdef is reduced by 35%, with a 30 second cooldown. This means that the average pdef of the enemy will be at 88% of their normal value.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
That's beautiful Skai. I'm pretty sureplayer protections were implemented almost purely because of the competition over WBs in the old days. Back when they took an hour or longer and barbs didn't have more than 20k hp. An opposing faction would show up, get ready, and then take the WB by Expelling all the clerics and stopping their bb and heals. The faction would wipe, the new faction would move in, rinse, wash, repeat. Then have entire factions sending in tickets over WB stealing.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0
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@Saku Expel doesn't interrupt channeling. And thanks! It's great that they implemented those filters. Makes things a bit more convenient XD[SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!0 -
Juat a question.
Tangling Mire is an aoe right? The graphic looks like one. Is Impact an aoe too or a single target? This would make a difference on the big room frost boss.
My sin is almost 94 and has to start thinking about such things. b:laugh0 -
MagicEmpress - Lost City wrote: »Juat a question.
Tangling Mire is an aoe right? The graphic looks like one. Is Impact an aoe too or a single target? This would make a difference on the big room frost boss.
My sin is almost 94 and has to start thinking about such things. b:laugh
Tangling Mire is an AoE, Impact is single target.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0
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