Few questions for future

WnbTank - Archosaur · March 2012

I have low lvl Archer that I`ve decided to lvl after my farming sin is geared enough to farm properly. I have sin & archer on same account = same gear for both, which will be the usual -int pieces for everything(TT99 HA orns, TT99 Boots & Bracers, Nirvana legging, R8 Chest, lunar cape). I may get pan gu or I may skip it - Quite expensive for the farming purposes I made my sin(Actually going Corona dags).

I had Archer on DW some years ago and I still miss him a bit, I really liked playing archer though furry kitty is my true love. I will go R8 on my Archer but I skip R9 as I can maybe convince myself doing it once but I rather do it on barb so I can stick with 2 sets of gear instead of 3. I will get some fists/claws for the archer to use so I can have "double" nirvana keys but my intentions arent only in making use of the already existing gear.

So we were talking and I said I should go sage on my archer just for lolz as the skill books are dirt cheap in comparison to demon ones on Arhosaur. But then we started thinking, Sage STA would actually be awesome for farming and in TWs for hitting catabarbs with it. The obvious "going demon" wasnt as obvious anymore. When comparing sage chi skill to demon one, the other one is pretty much useless as there is too few targets worth it - And the usual demon sins can handle that better.

I understand that Demon is better in terms of dps and mostly accepted as the right path. But I`m asking is there really that major leap from Demon to Sage? I want to do it to be different but I dont want to give much away for simply taking different culti path. With so many sins out there I actually like the sage spark proc more - Though it may be completely useless in reality.

The more I read bout Sage skills, the better it sounds for me as there is just so much more utility in the skills. I dont expect to beat Demon in 1v1 but I never have been into small scale PvP - I have only seemed to focus on TWs. I know a lot of arguments but I think those are too focused on small scale PvP, PvE wise Sage would be better for me even if I never get the tome.

I`ll compare the skills which complicate the idea in my mind but I expect to be corrected if I`m blabbling nonsense.

Sage is better with blazing arrow, though following the currents you could maybe time demon blazing arrow pretty neatly to out perform sage version. But casting it is always time you wont be doing "anything useful" and imo demon version is too situational in comparison.

Frost arrow - I actually like both though I gotta say demon is better while sage is situational this time. I can see myself hitting Catabarbs with frozen arrow to slow them as it costs quite little chi but I really prefer the chance of getting chi instead of "minimal" amount of dmg increase. There would be argument sparked but that`s quite situational, just like demon blazing arrow was.

STA is interesting skill. Demon helps individual dps which has bigger impact on small scale PvP while I believe Sage STA being plain better in TW which is what matters to me.

Lightning strike feels situational, base dmg is so low with such a long channel/cast that it will only be used to HAs who shouldnt be primary targets anyways. On those the never miss addon doesnt feel such a big deal whilst more chi is always awesome so I would put tiny point towards sage.

Stormrage Eagleon, the 2nd skill where I find the proc to have any significance. While Demon is complete and utter sht, Sage seems pretty scary from barbs perspective as description of skill would suggest that it stacks with all 3 HF, Amp & EP.

Take aim - I have to ask if Sage one has to be actually finished to get the proc or is it linear? If it`s linear, it would be absolutely better than demon, which doesnt really make sense but with PWI, it rarely does.

Demon QS is simply better as expected but I never took my time to learn what sage did, it`s not good but it may have it`s uses, which surprised me. Does demon QS have such a big impact in TWs? I expect to be hitting robes but those are harder to kill nowdays than back in the days - Enough for QS make difference?

Aim Low - Why would ever choose demon version over sage on this one? Sealed you can heal pot but imo it`s irrelevant as dmg has greatly exceeded healing pots. Well freeze is only 90% and seal wont stop from moving - yet imo something that occurs once every 40th cast isnt worth the 2s difference. And actually, doesnt seal work trough antistuns making sage even better?

Stunning arrow - Again utility versus individual dmg and I think these are always in favor of utility in TWs.

BoA The one with QS to me doubt if sage is actually good choice. Demon BoA proc is awesome while Sage is pretty useless as most ppl got brains to simply stun the archer outta BoA. Though now to think of it, hitting vacuity before casting BoA might actually make Sage BoA pretty awesome. But that is only for those first 15s after which you can be stunned. Even still, the idea of giving up on demon BoA bugs me, should it?

Wing Span I know knockbacks didnt work in TWs but I also know mystics can KB, does it work on this one? If not, the skill is quite irrelevant imo, though Sage proc of 1 spark seems quite tempting.

Bow Mastery As usual, the Sage is better, just like with every other class =p. This skill should help Sage when compared to demon bu tthe difference isnt huge imo.

The more I think of it, the more I can think of things to do as Sage in TW to utilize being Sage in ways I doubt demons could. But I still have my doubts and I`m curious what I`m missing in my ponderings.

Ps. Being barb, I`ve adapted the kitty talk, with archer it`s time to be an elf and talk in poems? Now pulling that off will require time, lol.

EighthKnight - Sanctuary · March 2012

This same thing happened to me O_O
As a sin, everyone says: go demon! Aps BLAHH BLAH APS!

But as I looked into sage more, I saw how it was more beneficial to me instead of demon. Being a super uber pure dex, the dagger devotion, defense in the spark and BP (only skills I've learned so far) are really helpful to me because I literally heal myself because of my DPH. I would have chosen to go demon if I had more HP because I wouldn't be able to kill with just DPH as a sage with high HP. So don't forget about your build when addressing the skills.

I really have no input on archer skills, but the best advice given to me was: if you think it, you're probably right.
Also, it's much more rare to be sage for archer and sin it seems b:chuckle And much more fun, because the path is not so set. In a game with so much hyper leveling, I would say sage for Archer and Sin seem like a jolly hard path.

From what I've read, you've done a lot of research on sage, and it seems like you've already set yourself on that path. No matter what you do you will love it though

b:bye Sorry I like talking

Vindis - Dreamweaver · March 2012

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Sage is better with blazing arrow, though following the currents you could maybe time demon blazing arrow pretty neatly to out perform sage version. But casting it is always time you wont be doing "anything useful" and imo demon version is too situational in comparison.

Good logic.

Frost arrow - I actually like both though I gotta say demon is better while sage is situational this time. I can see myself hitting Catabarbs with frozen arrow to slow them as it costs quite little chi but I really prefer the chance of getting chi instead of "minimal" amount of dmg increase. There would be argument sparked but that`s quite situational, just like demon blazing arrow was.

Frost is ok for Caster too, but Demon chi proc is rly nice.

STA is interesting skill. Demon helps individual dps which has bigger impact on small scale PvP while I believe Sage STA being plain better in TW which is what matters to me.

4% more really isnt that big of a difference. But it does help on WBs. Note that STA does not work in Nirvana.

Lightning strike feels situational, base dmg is so low with such a long channel/cast that it will only be used to HAs who shouldnt be primary targets anyways. On those the never miss addon doesnt feel such a big deal whilst more chi is always awesome so I would put tiny point towards sage.

Similar logic. Chi gain is always nice though the 25% proc isn't a large chance.

Stormrage Eagleon, the 2nd skill where I find the proc to have any significance. While Demon is complete and utter sht, Sage seems pretty scary from barbs perspective as description of skill would suggest that it stacks with all 3 HF, Amp & EP.

Stormrage's description is incorrect. It actually lowers Physical and Magical Attack by 20%. So it is basically like a 30 second ranged version of Frighten. Except it also adds a slow which is stackable.

Take aim - I have to ask if Sage one has to be actually finished to get the proc or is it linear? If it`s linear, it would be absolutely better than demon, which doesnt really make sense but with PWI, it rarely does.

They are about even. It does more damage the more you charge it. Both fully charged, Sage will hit more.

Demon QS is simply better as expected but I never took my time to learn what sage did, it`s not good but it may have it`s uses, which surprised me. Does demon QS have such a big impact in TWs? I expect to be hitting robes but those are harder to kill nowdays than back in the days - Enough for QS make difference?

Demon is really really nice for 1v1 and defeating tough opponents. It gives you some added burst damage that a sage really can't match. However, Sage QS is still one of my most used skills (50% chance to gain 20 chi). Still, Demon QS is like a bread and butter demon archer skill, its really nice.

Aim Low - Why would ever choose demon version over sage on this one? Sealed you can heal pot but imo it`s irrelevant as dmg has greatly exceeded healing pots. Well freeze is only 90% and seal wont stop from moving - yet imo something that occurs once every 40th cast isnt worth the 2s difference. And actually, doesnt seal work trough antistuns making sage even better?

The seal on antistun is pretty nice. It is also possible for the seal or stun (depending on culti) to proc without the freeze. Most don't expect to be sealed by an archer.

Stunning arrow - Again utility versus individual dmg and I think these are always in favor of utility in TWs.

^ My personal favorite. My archer was also built for TW.

BoA The one with QS to me doubt if sage is actually good choice. Demon BoA proc is awesome while Sage is pretty useless as most ppl got brains to simply stun the archer outta BoA. Though now to think of it, hitting vacuity before casting BoA might actually make Sage BoA pretty awesome. But that is only for those first 15s after which you can be stunned. Even still, the idea of giving up on demon BoA bugs me, should it?

Demon BoA is really nice for damage since its faster. Sage helps when you aren't in BB. Its like your own personal BB if you spam crabs/genie skills. I've been in BB Zhenning in trials and aoes kill the clerics and I survive because of sage BoA. Its basically survivability vs dps. Your choice.

Wing Span I know knockbacks didnt work in TWs but I also know mystics can KB, does it work on this one? If not, the skill is quite irrelevant imo, though Sage proc of 1 spark seems quite tempting.

Bow Mastery As usual, the Sage is better, just like with every other class =p. This skill should help Sage when compared to demon bu tthe difference isnt huge imo.

The more I think of it, the more I can think of things to do as Sage in TW to utilize being Sage in ways I doubt demons could. But I still have my doubts and I`m curious what I`m missing in my ponderings.

Ps. Being barb, I`ve adapted the kitty talk, with archer it`s time to be an elf and talk in poems? Now pulling that off will require time, lol.

The main thing you missed is that Demon Stun and STA have nice +crit buff add ons. Its those 2 and Demon QS, that is what demons love. Sage doesn't have many stand out skills and more are situational and utility, as you have noted.

Overall, choose based on your playstyle.

*Source: Full skilled Sage Archer

WnbTank - Archosaur · March 2012

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The main thing you missed is that Demon Stun and STA have nice +crit buff add ons. Its those 2 and Demon QS, that is what demons love. Sage doesn't have many stand out skills and more are situational and utility, as you have noted.

Overall, choose based on your playstyle.

*Source: Full skilled Sage Archer

That sounds pretty much what I expected, though I dont really consider the 10% crit buff for few seconds as anything major. It sure looks nice but I think the impact of it is overestimated greatly. I`m not saying it isnt good proc, I`m saying it`s not not as godlike as ppl make it seem.

The more I think on TW efficiency, the more I think of few Sage archers being really neat on own side. But as Sage revolve mostly around utility, there is only so much utility you can have before more becomes "irrelevant". I`m tossing numbers of every 2 in 10 archers being sage as something of a "perfect ratio". But from what I`ve learned, there is no sage archers on Archosaur. Well there has to be some but it`s something closer to one in every thirty archers. and most of the sages being on lower factions(= I dont know bout them) where the idea of demon archers isnt as obvious.

Ps. I`ll keep my eyes open and see if this thread offers something new and important but atm I`m pretty close of making my mind into going sage. The 89 culti may be months into future but whenever I make my mind, I`ll start gathering books for him "locking" my decision =p.

Nael - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Demon STA + Demon BoA is one of my all time favorite combo, both in PvE and TW. As if Demon BoA doesn't cause enough wreckage by itself, that 10% added crit chance will boost crit rate for most Archers to about 50%. That's 1 in 2 chances for crit. It's quite enough to wipe a group without R9 literally in few seconds. Spark + STA + Awaken + BoA for extra insurance, though it might be a bit overkill depending on who you are facing.

Main thing with Demon Wingspan is that it gives you a free Winged Shell which could save you from a death blow. But it won't see much use in TW since you are not supposed to be up close to enemies anyway. And no it doesn't KB in PvP.

Vindis - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Demon BoA is definitely nice, but its power is also overestimated.

Sage gets a little bit more p atk out of the mastery. And tbh, nothing really survives more than 3-4 waves of BoA if its not r9 or NV+10 or something.

Demon QS is the really nice skill. I wish I had that kind of single target dps.

And I agree, the crit buff isn't as relevant as it used to be, especially considering sage's can use Galvanic and then BoA for the same effect from 40m.

Throw BoA on a catasquad and have your BM throw an HF. Everything will die very shortly (especially considering other casters dps or another BoA etc).

Nael - Dreamweaver · March 2012

You are not always going to have Cloud Eruption/Awaken/Chi pots to utilize Galvanic with BoA, and Galvanic increases crit only for few times (dependent on how well refined your gear is) before its effect wears off, whereas Demon STA/SA give solid crit buffs for 15/10 seconds and are 12x more spammable.

Crit buffs from Demon STA/SA are still very relevant.

Also, while Sage mastery is nice as usual, it makes too little difference (typically 400~500 pattack on a +10 bow) to match Sage BoA with the -int bonus from Demon BoA in terms of damage. Sure, Sage BoA is still as potent, but in a TW you can't really expect to have BoA up for more than the duration of AD or anti-stun pots against an experienced faction. Speed makes a big difference.

As an Archer I have the mindset of "taking as many as I can with me before I die", thus Demon cultivation was more fit for me. Obviously not everyone thinks like this and prefer more survivability, in which case Sage would be more of fit. In the end it truly depends on your playstyle...like everything else in this game.

Vindis - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Nael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are not always going to have Cloud Eruption/Awaken/Chi pots to utilize Galvanic with BoA, and Galvanic increases crit only for few times (dependent on how well refined your gear is) before its effect wears off, whereas Demon STA/SA give solid crit buffs for 15/10 seconds and are 12x more spammable.

Who would run out of all of their possible chi gain options? The combo I listed is usable from full sparks (3 and 99 chi), again with Awaken, and again with Cloud eruption (which I do not have) and again with Chi pots. The point was more the range than the crit. Like I said, you BoA and everything dies. Ever seen an HF?

Also, while Sage mastery is nice as usual, it makes too little difference (typically 400~500 pattack on a +10 bow) to match Sage BoA with the -int bonus from Demon BoA in terms of damage. Sure, Sage BoA is still as potent, but in a TW you can't really expect to have BoA up for more than the duration of AD or anti-stun pots against an experienced faction. Speed makes a big difference.

My point wasn't so much the sage passive as much as archers in general having a high crit and high dph. If your squad mates are doing their job, your BoA should be launching into an HF or SS. That or it is hitting targets that aren't really focusing on you. Either way, 2-3 barrages (maybe 5 secs tops) should kill everything worth killing that isnt r9 (all non melee classes). Vacuity Powder also exists in game. As does Elven Alacrity and Wings of Grace (I normally save this for sin defense since Sage BoA offers 33% already).

As an Archer I have the mindset of "taking as many as I can with me before I die", thus Demon cultivation was more fit for me. Obviously not everyone thinks like this and prefer more survivability, in which case Sage would be more of fit. In the end it truly depends on your playstyle...like everything else in this game.

As an archer I have the mindset of "yeah, I'm going to try not to get hit, not die, and still kill everything". If you can't beat it, kite until you have back up. Numbers and tactics are superior to suicide (though there are certain situations where it is worth it to charge off and do something risky).

Something else of note for Sage BoA:

If you are targetted, it is like you are in BB with the % reduction. So you can tank more hits. This will often allow you to launch about the same, if not more barrages than if you were in the level 10 version. (Demons can WoG + BoA for a similar effect, or to feel what Sage BoA is like).

Idk about you, but I am not often caught in BoA without an antistun up. And you should only really fear psys/wiz during BoA anyways. Idk who doesn't expel themselves when rushing in, thusly nullifying all physical damage for 9 seconds. 33% reduction from magic helps.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · March 2012

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Idk about you, but I am not often caught in BoA without an antistun up. And you should only really fear psys/wiz during BoA anyways. Idk who doesn't expel themselves when rushing in, thusly nullifying all physical damage for 9 seconds. 33% reduction from magic helps.

Idk about you, but I am not often caught in BoA without IG up. And I don't expel myself and gimp the ability to HP out or to cast anything.

Vindis - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

Idk about you, but I am not often caught in BoA without IG up. And I don't expel myself and gimp the ability to HP out or to cast anything.

You can still cast HP with Expel up. Learn 2 genie b:cute

and most tactics are for those that are not r9 (fighting similar geared or better geared opponents). Its a shame most r9s aren't able to grasp that. r9 strat: Tab+attack. Surprisingly it works for others as well ;o

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · March 2012

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You can still cast HP with Expel up. Learn 2 genie b:cute

You have a 200 energy genie (180 if you're going to be pedantic and argue about regen) that has full energy every time you BoA? learn 2 maths.

truekossy · March 2012

At the end of the day, Demon packs a bigger punch if you're at a point where culti matters in terms of gear.

When you get to the point where sage really begins to shine, you also tend to be in an area where culti doesn't matter. While sage has some situational scenarios where it out-performs demon, it also tends to fall behind just as often.

Things like Sage barrage, for example, sound great in theory... but in practice it's nullified by the fact that if you aren't invul you get murdered anyways. Same with bow mastery. It sounds like a great advantage until you realize it translates to maybe 500ish raw phys attack... which really isn't much of an advantage compared to the crit from demon.

There are some skills, such as sage sharp and stun, that really are better for the goal you have in mind of playing more of a supportive archer than one that's directly offensive. However there will be times when you need to be on the direct offensive and the culti will make it a bit harder if you aren't in some of the better gears.

The cheap skills are a plus, though!

Vindis - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

You have a 200 energy genie (180 if you're going to be pedantic and argue about regen) that has full energy every time you BoA? learn 2 maths.

I actually have a 183 energy genie

High Mag ftw \o/

Also, obvious opening combo is obvious :P

Anfisa - Lost City · March 2012

lolsage

Nael - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As an archer I have the mindset of "yeah, I'm going to try not to get hit, not die, and still kill everything". If you can't beat it, kite until you have back up. Numbers and tactics are superior to suicide (though there are certain situations where it is worth it to charge off and do something risky).

I didn't say suicide. My mindset is simply killing as many as possible before I die, and Demon skills help me to do just that.

Also, you can't really help getting hit if someone aims at you and doesn't miss. It's luck based on your evasion...coincidentally for which Demon WoP does better at.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · March 2012

I don't really buy the sage = better survivability in TW argument. The way you survive in TW is by correctly using your antistun skills, genie skills, and apothecary. Sage offers nothing in the way of real defensive skills. The triple spark and barrage are both slow and has nothing that prevents you from being stunned / sealed / purged.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · March 2012

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't really buy the sage = better survivability in TW argument. The way you survive in TW is by correctly using your antistun skills, genie skills, and apothecary. Sage offers nothing in the way of real defensive skills. The triple spark and barrage are both slow and has nothing that prevents you from being stunned / sealed / purged.

You're a demon archer and spews nothing but slander and evil lies. Argument invalid.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary · March 2012

Demon path helps an archer to better fulfill their DD role, whereas sage turns you into a half-*** DD who thinks he/she is a tank but who still dies miserably if ignorant of how to use his/her defensive apoth, genie, and skills that demons have as well.

The only way you should be thinking about sage, is if you are relying on +12 R9 weapon.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · March 2012

Hipster archers go sage because it's the cool thing to do.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear · March 2012

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

You're a demon archer and spews nothing but slander and evil lies. Argument invalid.

LOL xD

Vindis - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't really buy the sage = better survivability in TW argument. The way you survive in TW is by correctly using your antistun skills, genie skills, and apothecary and staying out of everything's attack range aka kiting. Sage offers nothing in the way of real defensive skills (aside from more chi for defensive skills use). The triple spark and barrage are both slow (who 3 sparks as a sage in tw?) and has nothing that prevents you from being stunned / sealed / purged (except for genies and the best attack range in game and kiting).

Filled in some blanks for you b:shutup

To the other r9 Demons: Try to think like you aren't r9 for once lol.

33% reduction is inherently more survivability than 0%. Simple math gives us that logic.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

I don't expel myself

The main time that an archer should be hit in TW is during BoA, by surprise (sins) or by multiple opponents. Expel is quite helpful for the latter two scenarios (helps escape most things). When in BoA, which gives more survivability? Immunity to ALL of the physical damage (via expel; 9 secs) and tank only the magical (with a 33% reduction for sage boa) or to just tank it all and die?

Don't answer that btw, it was rhetorical <________<.

Nael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I didn't say suicide. My mindset is simply killing as many as possible before I die, and Demon skills help me to do just that.

Also, you can't really help getting hit if someone aims at you and doesn't miss. It's luck based on your evasion...coincidentally for which Demon WoP does better at.

Did you really just cite maybe 600~ more evasion tops as better survivability?
(Demon gives me around 400 more evasion off hand 4.7k sage -->5.1k demon)

Coincidentally, kiting is pretty effective at avoiding death.

Back to point: Sage is more of a disabler (due to extra chi; inb4CloudEruption, because I can use my genie for other things, like defensive skills or *gasp* frenzy), but people really underestimate its damage. Still hits hard. Still crits alot. I'll make the argument that they are better for fighting Heavies (shorter CD on magic skills and frost arrow/more chi for aim low/WoG). Demon still has higher single target dps. I still tab and kill most things that I am designed to kill (AAs, Sins, Archers) with similar gear in 1-3 shots. I still have 38% crit passive. 43% crit rate in TW (Base buff). And as previously stated, my gear is not good. I can kill most things if I have to and when exactly should I have to solo multiple opponents in TW again? My new faction fields 80 lol.

Demons act as if archers are utter trash without Demon Spark, QS or r9 lol.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon path helps an archer to better fulfill their DD role, whereas sage[..]thinks he/she is a tank[..]

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Sage revolve mostly around utility

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The point was more the range than the crit

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you can't beat it, kite until you have back up. Numbers and tactics are superior

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As an archer I have the mindset of "yeah, I'm going to try not to get hit, not die, and still kill everything".

Kite =/= Tank. Sorry Rain. b:bye

truekossy wrote: »

more of a supportive archer than one that's directly offensive

Why is it that Kossy (and usually Asterelle) are often the only ones of sound (or any) logic here?

You has logic when not trolling bloody >.>

I can list all the known pros of demon (the ones I would personally enjoy if I were demon) and the pros and cons of sage, and still, it does not satisfy. Cultivation is not so black and white. Playstyle matters, but overall an archer is an archer.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary · March 2012

dafuq got into Vindis?

Well, you suck at this arguing thing.

That 30% reduction from whatever the hell it is you are talking(sage spark I'm guessing) about can be achieved by a demon via WoG. It's no special sage archer trick.

The next "rhetorical" question is what I was referring to when i said sage archers think they are tanks. WTF are you doing in TW with barrage open and no immune? Do you TW against blind people? What makes you think your 30% reduction is any good at all there? Another fun fact, expel is only really effective against idiots, and from the way you talk, your enemy factions are composed exclusively of physical melee idiots. What would happen if someone were to drops a bids on your expelled BoA?

Nael - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Did you really just cite maybe 600~ more evasion tops as better survivability?
(Demon gives me around 400 more evasion off hand 4.7k sage -->5.1k demon)

Where did I cite it as "better survivability"? I merely said Demon WoP gives more evasion since you seemed to love to "not get hit" when you don't have control over the numbers in deciding this. And better evasion is better evasion no matter how you look at it.

Coincidentally, kiting is pretty effective at avoiding death.

If you are facing against 80 melee classes, sure. When you are against ranged classes you rarely know where it's coming from, especially if it's a full 160 person war. An Archer that runs all the way back just to avoid being hit by anything is as useless as a dead one. That's why you have apo, that's why you have food, that's why you have charms. Try using them.

Demons act as if archers are utter trash without Demon Spark, QS or r9 lol.

Why do Sages get so defensive when Demons make arguments against them?
I don't think Sage Archers are utter trash and I don't have R9 (I'm G15 Nirvana). For every point I stated where I think Demon does better than Sage at, you had to come and appeal Sage as equal or better.

Stop being so sentimental.

Ruvil - Sanctuary · March 2012

Should I even try...?
I feel obligated to all the yet-to-be-born archer babies

wait im a wiz now

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demons act as if archers are utter trash without Demon Spark, QS or r9 lol.
33% reduction is inherently more survivability than 0%. Simple math gives us that logic.

hello 30k div pyro on non r9 archer o wait 20k still dead

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · March 2012

Gaiz gaiz vindis got a point - if you aren't R9 and a factor you need to go sage to justify why you fail.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · March 2012

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't really buy the sage = better survivability in TW argument.

Actually that argument is pretty valid. If you take all the sage archers and all the demon archers in TW (at least on HT)... on average sage will have better survival capabilities. Reason being... any sage archer in a top grade TW (lets face it... no one worth a damn is going to care about a bunch of miugue slapping each other) is going to be full r9. Of all the sage archers that I know and that TWs... every last one of them is sporting full r9s. While on the demon side... you'll still see r8 and maybe with a few recast thrown in.

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2012

It's obvious that all of you need to L23sparkIG.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · March 2012

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually that argument is pretty valid. If you take all the sage archers and all the demon archers in TW (at least on HT)... on average sage will have better survival capabilities. Reason being... any sage archer in a top grade TW (lets face it... no one worth a damn is going to care about a bunch of miugue slapping each other) is going to be full r9. Of all the sage archers that I know and that TWs... every last one of them is sporting full r9s. While on the demon side... you'll still see r8 and maybe with a few recast thrown in.

That's an interesting argument which isn't true on Sanctuary. I have a spreadsheet of the 62 r9 archers on sanctuary and only 5 of them are sage. Their gear is nothing you don't see on the 57 demons.

Vindis - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Nael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Where did I cite it as "better survivability"? I merely said Demon WoP gives more evasion since you seemed to love to "not get hit" when you don't have control over the numbers in deciding this. And better evasion is better evasion no matter how you look at it.

If you are facing against 80 melee classes, sure. When you are against ranged classes you rarely know where it's coming from, especially if it's a full 160 person war. An Archer that runs all the way back just to avoid being hit by anything is as useless as a dead one. That's why you have apo, that's why you have food, that's why you have charms. Try using them.

Hi. I underlined a few things you said in black and white terms. Things like the above paragraph really shouldn't have to be broken down. Kiting is used against opponents stronger than oneself, ones that will generally 1-2 shot you. Kiting is also useful against multiple opponents to regroup with your squad and use tactics (baiting and luring is a nice example use for kiting).

Apo, food and charms are all obvious and need no discussion.

Sage archers recognize demon has more dps. Sages recognize the good skills of demons. Yet, Demons are unable to reconcile that sage may possess any sort of advantage at all (range is a simple one, albeit marginal; Survivability with chi gain and sage boa is another).

One key component that you seem personally unable to grasp is battlefield spacing. If you position yourself properly and possess any kind of awareness or knowledge of basic squad based tactics, then you should still have a range advantage on most classes. One only needs to kite maybe 10 meters to gain acceptable distance and launch a stun. Leaps will make this even easier. Not being targetted at all is alot more likely to save you than relying on evasion (which doesn't work against magic classes). To your evasion argument, I can be buffed by Demon WoP and reap the same benefit.

As you yourself know from playing on Dramaweaver, magic classes are not prevalent in TW aside from the top 4 factions, one of which I am now a part of. I have fought against

, EQ, BC, Devoted and Emergence and overall, they have less than a handful of people I need to be overtly concerned about (mostly r9 psys).

As for the r9 population on my server, I can vouch that factions ranked 5 and lower do not field more than a dozen r9s. I am uncertain of the numbers of their magic classes (Wiz, Psy), but I cannot say I see many around. My old faction, Kindrid (arguably 5th-7th) barely had any and relied heavily on archer strength. Contrastly, my new faction, Tempest, has more magic classes than I have ever faced in TW from the above mentioned factions.

Cultivation matters very little at r9, and one could even make the argument that is irrelevant when you reach r8 gears as well. There comes a point where gear will brute force any other tactics or strategy as well as reinforce those with a lack of skill (have you seen Lucy_Black? I don't believe they play anymore). To defeat such, it is smarter to use tactics and numbers than die needlessly.

On my server: The average archer in DW TW is demon, built for farming, and has an excessive amount of strength (to use claws) and little ability to play (because they were built for PvE purposes originally, this is a PvE server lol). Some even have higher grade/refined claws than bows <,<. As such, my opinion of most archers in general is a poor one. I'd say a r8+10 bow is fairly well geared for TW by my server's standards, and I could probably list all the r9 archers I know of, per faction, on one hand (Example: Kindrid has 4 or 5 now).

I can't say I have opinions on other Sages, as I know only 4 with gears comparable to my own (one r9), and they are all in my current faction, though there may be more. I have met maybe a dozen total over the span of 4 years and yes, most are undergearred, just like most other classes (I meet most at pre-100). It is not something uncommon on a PvE server. Some think of r8 as a costly venture.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's an interesting argument which isn't true on Sanctuary. I have a spreadsheet of the 62 r9 archers on sanctuary and only 5 of them are sage. Their gear is nothing you don't see on the 57 demons.

Hmmm, I'll give an attempt at guessing how many r9 archers are on DW.

Probably less than 30 in the heavily TW based factions (top 4) and maybe another 15 (generous) in the others that I know of. Though I wouldn't doubt there being more in PvE only factions or some that are exclusively alts in TW factions I have not often faced, or not faced at all.

Nael - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...

*Sigh*
All the TW "scenarios" you put forth are ironically black and white. What are you fighting against, a bunch of dumbfounded AI straight out of a strategy game?
Look, unless you are fighting against a minor faction who can't even field more than 30 people, you do not know where these "opponents stronger than oneself" are. Do you go around player info'ing people in the middle of war? There could be a R9 Psy trying to kill one of your cata Barbs 50 meteres away while you are trying to kill a Sin, and next minute he could be having you locked on while a Veno is purging you from sky (unlikely unless you are R9) and R9 Wiz hiding behind a tree casting a BID on you.

Players are not dumb; they don't have a rule of engagement that says they can't walk over *THIS* line. They will run towards you, they will change targets, and they will counter what you call "kiting tactics". If you are so sure on "squad based tactics" then USE THEM! Ask one of your squad members to stun whatever R9 opponent that seems to be eye-ing you. You are there to kill key opponents like Clerics/Mystics and high priority DDs like Wiz and Psy, not "carefully examine the battlefield" from the back where nobody can reach you.

I'm not saying don't move and stand there like an idiot. Yes you need to reposition yourself often and yes you need to move left and right. But running should be the last resort when your genie, apo, food, charms and skills are on cooldown and you are getting hammered. Hit and run tactics worked in old days when people weren't so well geared like they are now. You often have to put forth several shots to kill a single target, and kiting so much will not accomplish any of it.

Also, the only reason I brought up evasion is because you said "try not to get hit" when it doesn't hold any advantage over most opponents that can actually reach you (casters) which you just mentioned. And if you don't have a Demon Archer in squad you can't reap the same benefit. What's your point?

I'm done arguing this as it's obviously not going anywhere. My words hold no merit to you and your words hold no merit to me. Good luck to you in Tempest.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear · March 2012

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually that argument is pretty valid. If you take all the sage archers and all the demon archers in TW (at least on HT)... on average sage will have better survival capabilities. Reason being... any sage archer in a top grade TW (lets face it... no one worth a damn is going to care about a bunch of miugue slapping each other) is going to be full r9. Of all the sage archers that I know and that TWs... every last one of them is sporting full r9s. While on the demon side... you'll still see r8 and maybe with a few recast thrown in.

I lol'd so hard.

Few questions for future

Comments

Categories