Nerf this, kill that, 20% accuracy reduction...

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

If well geared players are going to quit, what's going to happen to your FCC's? I don't sell FCC's, but those people who do will probably give up doing so and quit.

OH NO, we'll actually have to do FF without 5aps people? Or *gasp* not abuse FF for powerleveling? How will we ever survive?? Y'know, other than... playing the game like it was designed, and all.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Those Nirvana runs that are so easy to find will suddenly become nearly impossible to find.

OH NO, we'll actually have to learn how to do Nirvana without aps now? As if that were impossible to begin with, right? Maybe the WC squads would have you believe that...

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Finding help for BH, FB, and other associated difficult things will become difficult.

OH NO, we'll actually have to etc. etc. >_>

Running FBs for people is tradition. Faction, FL, even random WC people should be more than sufficient for this, especially for the later FBs that coincide with a BH, making it possible to tag along with a BH squad.

And while we're on the subject... BHs never need "help." What you're referring to is a soloist. Big difference. And every time you get a BH soloed, you lose out on a chance to practice your class. It's not just FF abuse that's producing lv100 noobs, you know.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Making money for your caster alts... Will get much, much harder.

Gold prices will go down. (I know a lot of you will go "YAAAAAY!!!! I CAN BUY GOLD!!!!!!111") And then, the Gold Trading will be empty, because nobody will be charging anymore.

Why? Because something that people worked hard at to achieve, well, some of us worked hard at, was just taken away, and there was no compensation given. Grind, merchant, cash shop, however it was achieved, it was earned somehow (some of us DO work for the money we put into the cash shop).

You know, there's a curious facet of human nature that tends to pop up when we're given **** that we never needed and essentially get "spoiled" by it. Namely, we raise a hissy-fit every time we have to give it up. The fact that you "worked hard" for it is irrelevant. It should never have been there to be exploited in the first place. So if it gets changed, you have no one to blame but yourself for investing in such a broken system.

Do you think you're the first person to post the "MASS RAGEQUITS IF YOU CAP APS PWI BEWARE" theory? You can't go a week on this board without someone posting the latest theory on how PWI is going down. And half the time it is something they did that people are quitting over (either deliberately or accidentally). Are some people going to quit if APS is capped? Sure. But I think it'll be them making the *rageface*s, while the rest of us adjust back into a healthier game.

Surely someone who's been around since January 2009 (or earlier?) understands what I'm talking about here. Just like someone who's been around since January 2009 would also understand that there's plenty of ways to make money besides farming an instance we didn't always have with gears that we never needed.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I like playing TW. Win or lose, as long as it's not a 30 second (exaggerating here, since a lot of you diaper-wearing neanderthals don't understand the concept) roll, it's fun. The 6 month reset is going to increase the fun value of TW. But my sin is 4.0 Sage, and only Nirvana/R8, sharded with Vit Shards, so if APS got nerfed, I'd have to re-do my build, or scrap the character completely. Unlike a lot of others, I never did Goonz, so that was a lot of time, effort, and soloing FCC wasted. I'd simply quit this game, and find something else to do if it happened.

And I'm one of those people who used to put gold into the AH for you other people to buy (not very much, but some).

I'm all for fixing the balance of this game, but it should be done right. Make Casters more OP in PVE, instead of making APS weaker.

PS: If you don't want to read a wall of text, use the 'back' button on your browser, and find another thread.

You don't fix what isn't broken. Casters are not broken (except maybe Psys in PVP). APS is. So if re-building your sin would be that much of an inconvenience to you, then again - maybe you shouldn't have invested so heavily in a broken system to begin with. This is just common sense. >_>

To be honest, I wouldn't mind all that terribly much if they lowered APS. It would mean I could finally make my Assassin's TT99 wrists and boots into Nirvana 2nd cast, could use my R8 dagger at +10 which ends up hitting harder than my Nirvana +10 2nd Cast. I could sacrifice that -int for more powerful strikes, which to me makes more logical sense in the first place anyway. If people weren't under the illusion that -interval is so much better than a much stronger weapon the game would be better off. I have come across a number of sage assassins for instance, who even at 2.86 or so hit a lot harder than some demon sins.

Honestly I'd also like to see Archers and Barbs return to what their classes were originally designed for too. I think claw barbs/archers look kind of ridiculous lol.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Do you really know what you speak of?

Archers have always been DDs, so what's the difference if they DD with claws or DD with bow? Isn't it in a DD's best interest to output as much damage as possible? So if claws deal more DPS than bow, what's the problem here? Don't blame archers for getting claws, blame PvE for being dominated by single target, high hp bosses.

Are you saying archers should never be able to tank, no matter the quality of their gear? Did people start QQing when BMs at higher levels were able to tank and replace barbs too? Traditional roles can only be so applicable when people start getting high refines right?

There are psychics who can solo harpy too, what do you have to say about that?

You want the game to return to when non-APS barbs were the only class capable of tanking, so they can take forever to find, get first picks, and demand charm/repair costs? How would that actually improve the game? Do you see tanking DDs nowadays demanding first picks?

You talk as if BMs never tanked. Of course they did. Hell, they tanked with axes, or even swords or spears. And if an archer stole aggro, he/she would often die, and it'd be their own damn fault. You can only kill a boss as fast as the tank's aggro holding ability allows. The problem is that we've buffed a BM/etc.'s aggro holding ability so radically that today's newbies wouldn't know damage moderation to save their lives.

Archers are primarily bow users. It's the definition of the word, it's the definition of the class (unless you're telling me that 80% of their skills are bow-only for some other arbitrary reason). If you can outdamage your bow with your fists, then there's a problem... specifically, that the game should never give a reason for any class to prioritize a non-intended weapon over an intended one under standard conditions.

I'm not in favor of psychics soloing harpy either, but a pertinent question is: how long does that take? Probably quite a while, with white voodoo on? Certainly nowhere near the speed with which an APS user takes down a boss.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually there were definitely bosses that BMs could never tank at their level. Try to tank Polearm with a 7x BM, for example. Better yet, try Jewelscalen at lvl 43.

Examples like Pole and Jewel did exist, sure, but they are few and far-between. In general, BMs were (and still are, without APS) more than competent at tanking at least 90-95% of the bosses in the game.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would say 90% of archer skills are useless in PvE boss fights, so what's your point? What does your archer do other than STA, auto attack, and spark?

In serious boss fights? No, not much else, although I will throw in a Thundershock if there's mutliple clerics and/or a seeker in the squad. But you asked for my point, and it is that the class was clearly designed for and intended to be using bows as primary weapons. The skill set archers have is a clear example of that, regardless of whether those individual skills have particular use in boss fights (as if all uses of bows were to be restricted to boss fights anyway). Even if every archer skill were complete **** and had no purpose whatsoever, the fact that they're restricted to bows should tell you something, shouldn't it? If my BM had bow skills I'd start to question whether the devs thought I should be using a significant bow on her, too. But no, no bow skills on her, so she'll be lucky if she ever equips a Unicorn one day. :P

Actually, if the archer stole aggro and could tank, the archer tanks. No one had problems with that.

In theory yes, but in practice this rarely happened back in the day. It's only because of the easy access to high-powered gears, particularly with the high refines you mention, that they can occasionally pull it off now.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem is that APS, Rank 9, and whatever is broken. But people have spent hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands of dollars on that. What happens to those people when you just *woosh* take it all away?

I only even hit level 100 on any of my characters 3 months ago. I resisted APS, and probably never will go R9 (because it would cost like $40,000 to get it on all of my characters). But I'm not gonna sit around and be a 1.25 APS level 101 sin that can't ****ing DO anything because nobody wants me in a party.

Wanmei broke the Mechanics, PWE broke R9, and the player base here broke it all even worse.

But now, how does Wanmei fix it? Cause the playerbase here and PWE SURE AS HELL is NOT GONNA DO JACK ****.

EVERYONE I knew from 2008 has quit this game. Almost everyone I knew from 2009 is gone. I only still know one person from 2010.

Someone's medication schedule was changed recently. b:chuckle

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My point with what I said about claw barbs or archers is that the whole point of playing either of the classes is to play them as they were intended. Which probably doesn't mean a lot coming from someone who used to play an HA veno part-time (still used mag weps however)...

I don't know, if I chose to play an archer, I would play one because I like using a bow. I even made one once, but decided it really wasn't my thing. I just think it's pretty logical that when you choose a class, you judge it based on what it was intended for. Even in my example of the HA veno build, the HA isn't without its purpose, since it more or less goes hand in hand with foxform and that sort of thing.

Sometimes I'd run around with TT80 gold axes on just for giggles because I could, I never used them seriously. But people would see me running around in Archosaur and tell me if I wanted to use axes I should have just rolled a BM. Venomancers have zero skills to use with axes so yeah it would be pretty useless. They're right, if my intention was to use axes I would make a BM, but it wasn't.

Claws however, have taken over every possible class it can take over. I even saw a cleric once with claws (we're talking Nirvana here). You could say it was just a silly thing to do and they reset their stats just for the fun of it, but most people I have seen around went claw with the intention of keeping to it.

Not that using claws is so terrible, obviously there's a reason people do it. High DPS etc etc all that BS. The reason I said what I did was because I miss when everyone could play their class as it was intended (AND it was okay by community standards!). Is that really such a bad thing? I would think Barbs for one, would be happy to go back to tanking and using their skills the way they should be used. Disregarding the fact that there is a way to glitch claws in tiger form of course. Plus it would give them more HP with all those stat points they would have had to move around to equip claws. As for archers, what's so bad about using a bow? I really don't get why any class would want to give up their original job. Even my assassin gets boring, just sparking and hitting. I use maybe 4 or 5 of her skills and that is all you need. Archer/Barbs with claws even less because you have no skills to use with those weapons. If you can just AFK the whole time, I don't really call that playing a game. Even I get bored with Assassin, even though I'm constantly casting Rib Strike, Subsea, etc along with sparks of course, during things like Nirvana.

/wall-o-text

The original job of archers was DD...that means deal damage. There are few cases where using bow is different than using claws in PvE. If you think that's boring, somehow forcing archers to use only bows would not make it any less boring. You claim to have played this game since 2008, do you remember, or were you even aware that almost every DD toon had a macro of some kind during boss fights? The **** ones were the ones that didn't spark macro and just auto attacked. Some clerics even had a heal macro. Don't deny it, I had a heal macro. Archers don't actually use a lot of skills in boss fights, as pointed out in an earlier post. I hope you realize it's always been mostly Sharp Tooth then normal attacks + sparks. If anything, a melee tanking archer against some of the harder bosses use more skills and apoc than a ranged DDing archer.

It's the same thing as now...except now people use claws and kill faster. See the problem you presented is that PvE is boring, and you seem to think claws is the reason for that, but it's not. PvE has always been dominated by high hp, mostly-stationary bosses, thus making it boring. Don't you remember people falling asleep in TT? You might think...it's worse because all these classes are using the same weapons...but is that really much worse when classes using their respective class-designed weapons would just spark macro (or HF macro, or something) anyway? The inherent problem is that PvE is extremely un-interactive and boring.

For the game to be more interesting, and for classes to have incentive to not use claws, PvE has to changed to be not composed of high hp bosses and class skills such as stuns and seals should work against bosses. What do you use an axe for? AOE, extra stun, and high spike damage right? But is there such an incentive to use axes when every freaking boss is single target and stun-immune? Better pop HF then switch back to claws right?

They've certainly taken steps to involve more classes...for example in trials, skill damage is so much higher that classes are basically forced to use skills, plus there are also lots of mobs that need every class to deal with. That's interesting...but it could be better. Instances like Nirvana, TT are still dominated by large hp bossesl. Such instances encourage claw users over traditional classes. Kill this as fast as possible or the boss becomes obnoxiously annoying. That is how PvE is right now.

Like I said before, a few more bramble bosses might knock out the APS problem.

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

good cos my barb cant then keep agro its r9 and frankly if aps dies i can more or less get my job back
see i payed tons for my gear and still cant use it cos the greed of aps ppl

so what if you quit good riddance my GEAR is worth 10th more and its useless

so go qq in a corner like us r9 barb wiz and the kind who cant even keep up with aps

ROFL .. may be old post but .. if an r9 barb cant keep agro .. its user is total fail .. my lvl 97 barb with tt90 gear keeps agro against aps and seekers .. its all how you use your barb !

How did we get along before sins etc?We'll with all Fairness Sins are OP way 2 much.According to pwi gm's they balanced the skills.Personally speaking they did not.
Wont say completely remove BP just make it alittle weaker and reduce there stuns for pvp.
Wish they can beef a barb as we really need it.Higher aggro hold more damage on skills etc.

Sneasel - Harshlands wrote: »

sins get 2 stuns .. both short lived .. and insane cooldown on them .. BMs on the other hand have an AOE stun and fast cooldown .. how is a sin OP with stun ?
BP ? its 2% .. 3% if sage .. believe it or not .. its not the end all healing . still see 5 aps die in pve with bp .. in pvp bp is USELESS !

Barbs beefed ? they are already beefed .. want more agro .. then use your head for more then a hatrack .. go DEMON ... demon skills are all about boosting crit and AGRO !

Ever try to get agro from a demon barb after he used demon roar on mobs and waited the whole effect time .. .. not very likely . throw in alpha male and bamm .. seal the deal that barb keeps agro
more damage ?? dont need to drop every spare point into vit .. can do very well with minimal vit addition .. add to str to increase damage ..

Actually take the time to THINK this stuff out before you QQ bs

stun/sleep/immobilize:
-Deep Sting
-Throatcut
-Headhunt
-Tackling Slash
-Shadow Teleport

R9 aps = hit 3 per hit (1-2k dmg per hit = 3-5k dmg per sec)

FREE CHI +CHI skills =unlimited chi

BP= no need pot

AND lets not forget that sins have stealth, which means unless they have no skill whatsoever and get knocked out of it by an AoE, theyre always going to be able to hit when someones least ready. Deaden nerves which gives them no reason to be scared of being one shot. The stuns and high aps didnt work the first time? Stealth again wait for cooldowns and repeat. Tell me that isnt OP. b:surrender

Sneasel - Harshlands wrote: »

there are detection pots .. and now seekers have ability to see stealth ..
oh how about archers .. they can stealth too now .. ever see their damage .. tell me they arent OP ..

deaden nerves .. dont make me laugh .. there are skills say a wiz for example have .. that do say ..fire and phys damage .. somehow ... they show as 1 damage tally .. but they hit seperate .. a wiz can in fact 1 hit a sin with deaden nerves ..

how bout that new barb skill .. bout to die .. oh look heres 40% hp back .. FORTY PERCENT .. thats twice deaden nerves .. stealths .. have LARGE cooldown
shadow walk only usable when not in combat
shadow escape .. 90 seconds .. thats along time to wait to use again .. plenty of time for anyone to leave scene after sins uses .. thus saving their own lives

sin gonna "run away" no-one stopping the other from doing same ..

several skills genie and character class that can unstealth sins as well .. ( without a target ) so to QQ like that .. means lack of knowledge of the game

Yes, because everyone carrys around detect pots nowadays because theyre so cheap.

And what sin is going to sit there while a wizzy takes the time to cast that spell? If your gonna plan on sins sitting there and taking a hit by all means they arnt OP at all.

How many barbs do you know with this skill so far? Just because its there dosent mean everyones going to be able to get it in no time flat, hey r9 +12 psys exist so therefor theyre a better alternitave? How many people have the time/coin for that?
And if theyre gonna run you can take them offguard with stunlocks again, if you cant kill someone in two stunlocks with r9 3 aps theres something wrong with what your doing.

And so what if they genie you? They use their genie sin uses AD and teles up then starts stunlocking. Unless your in a duel you shouldent even know a sin is in the area unless theyre not going to stealth...which is one of the main points of a sin. (yeah archers can stealth too but their speed gets slowed to .1 and it takes 50 mp a second which is WAY more than sin stealth)

Oh and seekers being able to see sins? That lasts a full 8 seconds even if you spend the time to get the book and learn the skill.

Chronusblade - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, because everyone carrys around detect pots nowadays because theyre so cheap.

And what sin is going to sit there while a wizzy takes the time to cast that spell? If your gonna plan on sins sitting there and taking a hit by all means they arnt OP at all.

How many barbs do you know with this skill so far? Just because its there dosent mean everyones going to be able to get it in no time flat, hey r9 +12 psys exist so therefor theyre a better alternitave? How many people have the time/coin for that?
And if theyre gonna run you can take them offguard with stunlocks again, if you cant kill someone in two stunlocks with r9 3 aps theres something wrong with what your doing.

And so what if they genie you? They use their genie sin uses AD and teles up then starts stunlocking. Unless your in a duel you shouldent even know a sin is in the area unless theyre not going to stealth...which is one of the main points of a sin. (yeah archers can stealth too but their speed gets slowed to .1 and it takes 50 mp a second which is WAY more than sin stealth)

Oh and seekers being able to see sins? That lasts a full 8 seconds even if you spend the time to get the book and learn the skill.

coin for pots ?? R9 +12 psys ? afford that ? .. now you are QQing over $$$ again as stated those who QQ over aps are the ones too poor to afford CS or too dumb / lazy to FARM for it ! .. i have several friends who FARMED their R9 .. and guess what .. their gear is all +10 or better ! no csing at all .. just farm it .. and they never QQ over aps .. even if they get beat ... and when they do get beat .. its usually by a BM !