Who's responsibility is it...
Sagek - Sanctuary
Posts: 1,156 Arc User
As I sit here having my morning coffee and going through pages of QQ threads I can't help but feel like people have forgotten how to play a MMO. Originally MMO's were created to give like minded RPGers the ability to play together in a world created for them. I guess you could call it the evolution of things Like paper and pencil D&D, or old BBS games, or Telnet(MUD's, MOO's, MUCK's)games, etc..
They were created to give people who enjoyed this stuff a world they all could share and experience together. But it was never the creators purpose to pamper the people they invited into their world, it was only to give a world to like minded people to play in. The player was encouraged to use the resources they were given to make the world however they wanted after all the world was created for us. Now a days I see soooo much blame being put onto PWE/PWRD for not making the game fun, but whos really at fault for this?
So I am curious to ask, in your opinion who's responsibility is it to make this game fun?
They were created to give people who enjoyed this stuff a world they all could share and experience together. But it was never the creators purpose to pamper the people they invited into their world, it was only to give a world to like minded people to play in. The player was encouraged to use the resources they were given to make the world however they wanted after all the world was created for us. Now a days I see soooo much blame being put onto PWE/PWRD for not making the game fun, but whos really at fault for this?
So I am curious to ask, in your opinion who's responsibility is it to make this game fun?
Post edited by Sagek - Sanctuary on
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Comments
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It's the player's responsibility to find fun in the game that they are playing. If they do not have fun, they should move onto another game.
This does not mean that they cannot come back to their older games, it just means take some time off, play something you enjoy. Games are entertainment. Have fun or move onto the next thing.
b:cute The world may be small, but it is far from known.
Why the rage? It's a draining emotion.
Me: DaValentine (veno), Jaceraie (mystic), etc etc etc b:chuckle0 -
Jacerai - Dreamweaver wrote: »It's the player's responsibility to find fun in the game that they are playing. If they do not have fun, they should move onto another game.
This does not mean that they cannot come back to their older games, it just means take some time off, play something you enjoy. Games are entertainment. Have fun or move onto the next thing.
This is exactly what I do when I get frustrated, take 3-6 months break, then when I come back I find it fun again b:cute
@OP: Player's responsibility 50%, Administration 50%.
Because the player plays what the administration gives them, if there's no more things to do but PK, then something is wrong.
Everyone's goal is to be the best player ingame, when the administration just sells that goal for money it becomes a loop of:- Player gets 100
- Admin tells this player that the fastest way to achieve their goal is buying the gear
- Player accepts this due to the competition
- Admin then stops selling the gear for a while
- Player goes all happy until he/she finds out other 50% of the players have completed the same goal and probably this player will still fail due to heavy cash shopping
- Admin offers other ways to get where other players have
- Player accepts again, purchasing packs, gems, refines, etc.
- Admin then stops selling these
- Repeat with new players achieving the "goal"
When this happens, the game becomes boring, since, there's no real challenge, it's just matter of who can inject more money in a game.
I agree free to play games tend to always go somewhat like this way, I could not count how many games I have played that have this.
However, there should be a limit, and I am not saying a limit as in "give me what i want but dont give my competition the same things".
Rank gear shouldn't have been for sale, that was a huge mistake. Even packs seem like nothing in comparation to what you get from rank gear.
The content that the player was ... playing?.. like TT, Nirvana, Dungeons etc. just simply was dropped due to this, so when this happens it's the administration's fault, not the player's.
Sure you can try to boycott the company, you and how many more? 2-3 100? that's not enough.
However, not all the fault as I said is the administration's, the players, being lazy (which is very common nowadays...) just want everything easy - including my self.
But ah well, what do you expect, the company cannot please everyone at the same time.WTB> -12% channeling BELT or RING pm me with link or mail me ingame HT server, ty.0 -
I can not even begin to express how often I think about this sort of thing. On RT I run a guild..And I've honestly just stopped recruiting for it. Too many people expect whatever guild they join to level their characters for them, either through power leveling or doing their quests. Then when they go get buy power leveling they act as though it's my fault the game is boring to them.
Seriously, what's the point of playing a game if you're not going to play it? And just as importantly, how is it anyone else's responsibility to find things to entertain you? I feel like I'm constantly surrounded by masses of whiny infants and I have to continually jingle the shiny keys to shut them up.
So, if someone wants this game to be entertaining, they should actually play it. Stop taking the easy road for everything. Which means no power leveling, no throwing money at the game. Actually talk to people, make friends, work towards goals together. That's what makes the game -actually- fun, not just shiny distracting **** that keeps everyone's attention for two minutes.0 -
yer,for relaxation off of pwi...i like playing my x360
since i forget if the rule against naming other games in the forums applys to non competing games like console games,ill just say this
the game i play on my x360 involves an assassin,and he has a sexy spanish/italian accent with good looks to match b:dirtyb:dirty0 -
_Ink_ - Raging Tide wrote: »I can not even begin to express how often I think about this sort of thing. On RT I run a guild..And I've honestly just stopped recruiting for it. Too many people expect whatever guild they join to level their characters for them, either through power leveling or doing their quests. Then when they go get buy power leveling they act as though it's my fault the game is boring to them.
Seriously, what's the point of playing a game if you're not going to play it? And just as importantly, how is it anyone else's responsibility to find things to entertain you? I feel like I'm constantly surrounded by masses of whiny infants and I have to continually jingle the shiny keys to shut them up.
So, if someone wants this game to be entertaining, they should actually play it. Stop taking the easy road for everything. Which means no power leveling, no throwing money at the game. Actually talk to people, make friends, work towards goals together. That's what makes the game -actually- fun, not just shiny distracting **** that keeps everyone's attention for two minutes.
Story of my life.
Also, this is probably the main reason I see myself to stop playing this game entirely at some points. But then I think back in my history, and I'm like Oh Nooooooooo! I can't quit now! I'm so close to end game! I feel like there is more to enjoy out of this game, some genuine fun I've yet to experience, but this fun is being coordinated by PWE... That's my only problem. b:lipcurl b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Barbarian 103 - 101 - 101
Started playing on March 20100 -
Sagek - Sanctuary wrote: »As I sit here having my morning coffee and going through pages of QQ threads I can't help but feel like people have forgotten how to play a MMO. Originally MMO's were created to give like minded RPGers the ability to play together in a world created for them. I guess you could call it the evolution of things Like paper and pencil D&D, or old BBS games, or Telnet(MUD's, MOO's, MUCK's)games, etc..
They were created to give people who enjoyed this stuff a world they all could share and experience together. But it was never the creators purpose to pamper the people they invited into their world, it was only to give a world to like minded people to play in. The player was encouraged to use the resources they were given to make the world however they wanted after all the world was created for us. Now a days I see soooo much blame being put onto PWE/PWRD for not making the game fun, but whos really at fault for this?
So I am curious to ask, in your opinion who's responsibility is it to make this game fun?
The main problem is, they **** up all game, by neverending sales, +12 orb in boutique, R9 in boutique, etc. So the killed the main idea of MMO and every1 is now addicted to boutique to be the best.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Honestly, I only stick around on PWI for the few guildies that leveled up with me. We've been playing together for about a year and a half now. Maybe there is still some fun to be had from the game itself, but that just doesn't mean much to me without those people to enjoy it with.0
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The funny thing is, if it were just the nameless, faceless masses who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on this game... it'd be a lot easier to blame them. But as you said, just look at the forum. QQ threads everywhere, on a lot of things that shouldn't be QQ'd over at any time, ever.
PW*'s responsibility was to create and maintain an environment through which we all could play, cooperate, earn rewards, and create unique characters with interesting builds or gears. I say "was" in this case because PW* has failed spectacularly to provide for any of those things. There are maybe two or three "acceptable" sets of gear for any particular class, and if you don't have one, you're invited to GTFO. Even for gears that do meet these standards, the methods of actually earning them range from "crippled" (FF, Lunar, Nirv) to "nonexistant" (R8, R9). Team play and cooperation is now the exception rather than the rule, due to people constantly getting things solo'd for them up to endgame and then proceeding to buy gear so that they can solo things themselves. Even the basic "play" aspect of the game was shot to hell ever since powerleveling (or as I like to call it, Frost Abuse) came about.
It was PW*'s fault for letting the framework of their game erode to the point where these things could occur. But it was also the community's fault for buying into that faulty framework. In a way, the whole thing is just a case study on the more idiotic aspects of human nature. -_- But the only way to fix it is to commit to play the game like it used to be, and to find other like-minded people to do it with.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »The funny thing is, if it were just the nameless, faceless masses who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on this game... it'd be a lot easier to blame them. But as you said, just look at the forum. QQ threads everywhere, on a lot of things that shouldn't be QQ'd over at any time, ever.
PW*'s responsibility was to create and maintain an environment through which we all could play, cooperate, earn rewards, and create unique characters with interesting builds or gears. I say "was" in this case because PW* has failed spectacularly to provide for any of those things. There are maybe two or three "acceptable" sets of gear for any particular class, and if you don't have one, you're invited to GTFO. Even for gears that do meet these standards, the methods of actually earning them range from "crippled" (FF, Lunar, Nirv) to "nonexistant" (R8, R9). Team play and cooperation is now the exception rather than the rule, due to people constantly getting things solo'd for them up to endgame and then proceeding to buy gear so that they can solo things themselves. Even the basic "play" aspect of the game was shot to hell ever since powerleveling (or as I like to call it, Frost Abuse) came about.
It was PW*'s fault for letting the framework of their game erode to the point where these things could occur. But it was also the community's fault for buying into that faulty framework. In a way, the whole thing is just a case study on the more idiotic aspects of human nature. -_- But the only way to fix it is to commit to play the game like it used to be, and to find other like-minded people to do it with.
agreed o.o even as a lunatic CS user i can understand...ive played other mmo`s in the past that were balanced fer awhile,then fell apart after either hacking waves,or powerlvlin0 -
Hey, even CSing is fine within reason. If you want to spend $2000 on fashion and flyers and rare mounts, well, have fun. At least it's not functionally changing the game (except for maybe making your speed a bit faster).
The problems happen when you start buying gear from it. R8/9 are the worst offenders in that but pack gears are a close second. Most Lunar weps and ornaments come from packs now... as do gold FF weps, Warsoul helms, Cube necks, Warsong belts, Lunar and several other kinds of capes, several high level tomes (PGC, LUAD, etc.), anything with a DoT/DoD/JoSD in it... the list goes on and on. Just think for a minute how rare it is to see someone who doesn't use a single piece of that stuff.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »Hey, even CSing is fine within reason. If you want to spend $2000 on fashion and flyers and rare mounts, well, have fun. At least it's not functionally changing the game (except for maybe making your speed a bit faster).
The problems happen when you start buying gear from it. R8/9 are the worst offenders in that but pack gears are a close second. Most Lunar weps and ornaments come from packs now... as do gold FF weps, Warsoul helms, Cube necks, Warsong belts, Lunar and several other kinds of capes, several high level tomes (PGC, LUAD, etc.), anything with a DoT/DoD/JoSD in it... the list goes on and on. Just think for a minute how rare it is to see someone who doesn't use a single piece of that stuff.
I used purely quest gear and drops until I was 100. Then I finally got around to getting a few R7 pieces.0 -
agreed,i spend a ludicrous amount on fashion and flyers >.> what can i say,being a female i loves me dresses....anywho,yer,,,its the principal of the thing that irritates me
whats the point when they are destroying history?
when mankind can see all information past and present...thats usually when the singularity appears and destroys everything....cause cultures,and celebrated differences,are built upon differences in information and experience..take that away and everything ceases to exist0 -
I remember playing on Stanford's "End Of The Line" MUD back in my college days. There was no CS, only quests, leveling, and killing. b:chuckle They finally messed the game up by introducing the "android", a class that could heal itself, switch effortlessly between strength and dexterity, had amazing armor, could teleport anywhere, and so on. As you can imagine happened, everybody eventually rolled an android. It was sort of like how PWI introduced the Assassin class, and now everybody in this game is an assassin or has an assassin alt...
What I'm really looking forward to is Wuild Gars 2. If you haven't watched the developer manifesto yet, you owe it to yourself to do so.
MMO Design Manifesto
These people very obviously "get it" when it comes to designing an MMO for the people that just want to enjoy an MMO RPG.
I'm playing PWI in the meantime, but since Wuild Gars 2 has no subscription fee (you only have to buy the box, which is roughly the cost of a single +10 dragon orb lol), I plan on splitting my time between the two games.
This game is fun too if you just play it to enjoy it. PWI: Descent did a LOT to interest me again, I'm loving the new area and the new quests. I really believe PWI is trying its best to cater to the PvE players as well as the PvPers. By resetting the map every 6 months, everyone will eventually get a chance at TW. By opening the new area and giving PvE players access to warsoul-like weapons, everyone has the chance to run instances with really good gear. By joining a faction and getting to know people, you can treat the game like an IRC channel for a while if you're tired of the content. Plus, it's all free if you don't care about competitive TW or hard-core PvP. b:laugh0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »The problems happen when you start buying gear from it. R8/9 are the worst offenders in that but pack gears are a close second. Most Lunar weps and ornaments come from packs now... as do gold FF weps, Warsoul helms, Cube necks, Warsong belts, Lunar and several other kinds of capes, several high level tomes (PGC, LUAD, etc.), anything with a DoT/DoD/JoSD in it... the list goes on and on. Just think for a minute how rare it is to see someone who doesn't use a single piece of that stuff.
Um...
It's perfectly realistic for someone to have farmed R8 pre-General Summer's Sale.
Warsoul Helms at least used to be rewards from Tournament. Cube Necklaces and Warsong Belts can be farmed from Cube and Warsong.
Lunar Capes can be farmed, as can the more popular Energetic Robe: Wraithgate.
Tomes all have to come from the boutique as the only sources for Mystical Tome Pages is Boutique and Tokens.
Technically, you could manufacture DoT, DoD and JoSD, just that no one has ever done it.
And even without all of that, you'd still have the option of TT99s and Nirvana, which allows a lot already.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Possible? Yes. Realistic, no. You would have had to farm it all from classic sources - quests, FBs, darkness stamps, the occasional naturally-obtained dog tag or badge, and maybe BH rewards or a couple other small things. It wouldn't get you anywhere near 200k rep unless you devoted unhealthy amounts of time to farming it.Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Um...
It's perfectly realistic for someone to have farmed R8 pre-General Summer's Sale.
Unless you're referring to crafting badges with tokens, but then, tokens come from packs. :P
I'll give you the one about tomes, although reasonable use of the CS still could not produce the caliber of tomes people consider "endgame" today. For the others... yes, some things you can farm today, but do you? Are you going to tell me with a straight face that the average person would bother to pay Lunar entry fees and farm Tinders? Or hell, even chip the primary tinder? I've done the math quite a few times over (because I am after a legitimate lunar weapon myself), and to buy the mats straight-up ranges from 50-75mil depending on market prices. Tell me the average person wouldn't look at that and say "welp, time to find a LGIW."Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Warsoul Helms at least used to be rewards from Tournament. Cube Necklaces and Warsong Belts can be farmed from Cube and Warsong.
Lunar Capes can be farmed, as can the more popular Energetic Robe: Wraithgate.
Tomes all have to come from the boutique as the only sources for Mystical Tome Pages is Boutique and Tokens.
Technically, you could manufacture DoT, DoD and JoSD, just that no one has ever done it.
It's a pretty good bet that when you see one of these items on a person, it wasn't farmed - it was bought.
Nirvana is at least a farming instance, that's true (despite its balance being wrecked by APS). TT99 is in the same boat. So I never said either should be considered pack gears. :POlbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »And even without all of that, you'd still have the option of TT99s and Nirvana, which allows a lot already.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
FoosRoDah - Archosaur wrote: »
What I'm really looking forward to is Wuild Gars 2. If you haven't watched the developer manifesto yet, you owe it to yourself to do so.
MMO Design Manifesto
These people very obviously "get it" when it comes to designing an MMO for the people that just want to enjoy an MMO RPG.
Yanno I was interested given what you said, so I watched it. Nothing about game balance and ensuring there is a challenge. Nothing about building a cascading set of events that keeps the player interested and looking forward to logging in. Nothing about replay value.
I don't think they "get it."pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f50 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
I'll give you the one about tomes, although reasonable use of the CS still could not produce the caliber of tomes people consider "endgame" today. For the others... yes, some things you can farm today, but do you? Are you going to tell me with a straight face that the average person would bother to pay Lunar entry fees and farm Tinders? Or hell, even chip the primary tinder? I've done the math quite a few times over (because I am after a legitimate lunar weapon myself), and to buy the mats straight-up ranges from 50-75mil depending on market prices. Tell me the average person wouldn't look at that and say "welp, time to find a LGIW."
It's a pretty good bet that when you see one of these items on a person, it wasn't farmed - it was bought.
Nirvana is at least a farming instance, that's true (despite its balance being wrecked by APS). TT99 is in the same boat. So I never said either should be considered pack gears. :P
My TT99 sleeves were completely farmed. Luckily we had two gold mats drop in the same instance. I have SSs because we were both shocked. And out of 2x too!
That aside, I must be insane for completely farming my Lunar armorial and farming the coin to get the uncannies.
Well...yeah, I'm kinda not the average. There's always an exception to every rule.
b:cuteb:cute The world may be small, but it is far from known.
Why the rage? It's a draining emotion.
Me: DaValentine (veno), Jaceraie (mystic), etc etc etc b:chuckle0 -
Jacerai - Dreamweaver wrote: »My TT99 sleeves were completely farmed. Luckily we had two gold mats drop in the same instance. I have SSs because we were both shocked. And out of 2x too!
That aside, I must be insane for completely farming my Lunar armorial and farming the coin to get the uncannies.
Well...yeah, I'm kinda not the average. There's always an exception to every rule.
b:cute
I would farm TT also, but look what the stupid dev. did with TT. Impossible to farm for caster classes. 3-2,3-3 totally impossible.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Jacerai - Dreamweaver wrote: »My TT99 sleeves were completely farmed. Luckily we had two gold mats drop in the same instance. I have SSs because we were both shocked. And out of 2x too!
That aside, I must be insane for completely farming my Lunar armorial and farming the coin to get the uncannies.
Well...yeah, I'm kinda not the average. There's always an exception to every rule.
b:cute
I have yet to make any actual TT99 armors in practice, but I will be doing so very shortly for my barb. I plan to chip a few of the gold mats using chips I've obtained from Cube and BH (I try to avoid chips that come from chip packs, for this purpose).Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »I would farm TT also, but look what the stupid dev. did with TT. Impossible to farm for caster classes. 3-2,3-3 totally impossible.
But farming is always more respectable, IMO.
Mumin - 3-2 and 3-3 are actually possible depending on the squad and if they know what they're doing. When I did my 3-2 Emperor kill for 100 culti, it took us three tries and several unconventional methods to take the boss down. It's much harder if you're lower-HP (such as a pure magic build), but still possible.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
I did 3-2 for culti also. But we had to have in squadMiugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have yet to make any actual TT99 armors in practice, but I will be doing so very shortly for my barb. I plan to chip a few of the gold mats using chips I've obtained from Cube and BH (I try to avoid chips that come from chip packs, for this purpose).
But farming is always more respectable, IMO.
Mumin - 3-2 and 3-3 are actually possible depending on the squad and if they know what they're doing. When I did my 3-2 Emperor kill for 100 culti, it took us three tries and several unconventional methods to take the boss down. It's much harder if you're lower-HP (such as a pure magic build), but still possible.
me, 2clerics + 3 APS characters. I highly doubt it's possible only with casters.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
All casters? No, probably not.Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »I did 3-2 for culti also. But we had to have in squad
me, 2clerics + 3 APS characters. I highly doubt it's possible only with casters.
But, then, most TT bosses (and most bosses in general) are designed with physical tanks in mind. They do not need to be APS, though.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »All casters? No, probably not.
But, then, most TT bosses (and most bosses in general) are designed with physical tanks in mind. They do not need to be APS, though.
I read a TT guide, the only one I could find on the 3-series, that said that the easiest way to kill Emp is to have all APS and a cleric. I'd love to have 10-man squads for TT.b:cute The world may be small, but it is far from known.
Why the rage? It's a draining emotion.
Me: DaValentine (veno), Jaceraie (mystic), etc etc etc b:chuckle0 -
Sagek - Sanctuary wrote: »Originally MMO's were created to give like minded RPGers the ability to play together in a world created for them. I guess you could call it the evolution of things Like paper and pencil D&D, or old BBS games, or Telnet(MUD's, MOO's, MUCK's)games, etc..
They were created to give people who enjoyed this stuff a world they all could share and experience together. But it was never the creators purpose to pamper the people they invited into their world, it was only to give a world to like minded people to play in. The player was encouraged to use the resources they were given to make the world however they wanted after all the world was created for us. Now a days I see soooo much blame being put onto PWE/PWRD for not making the game fun, but whos really at fault for this?
So I am curious to ask, in your opinion who's responsibility is it to make this game fun?
LOL. Guys, the reason PWE created PW was because they wanted to create an ancient Chinese world for people to enjoy, not at all interested in money. The cash shop and subsequent additions to it are simply because they want you to enjoy the world they created more!
I don't know what warped reality you live in but an MMO company is no different than any other. If a company such as Ford started cutting corners on their new cars and you happen to die as a result I'm sure as hell you wouldn't be blaming the consumers for making the cars ****ty.0 -
True, but the most expensive and most important mats coming from these 3-2 and 3-3 bosses. So for caster is practically impossible to farm or to get into the squad. Same in nirvana(yea we have now our cripple nirvana) and same practically in all game.b:thanksMiugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »All casters? No, probably not.
But, then, most TT bosses (and most bosses in general) are designed with physical tanks in mind. They do not need to be APS, though.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
_Ink_ - Raging Tide wrote: »Honestly, I only stick around on PWI for the few guildies that leveled up with me. We've been playing together for about a year and a half now. Maybe there is still some fun to be had from the game itself, but that just doesn't mean much to me without those people to enjoy it with.
Don't forget me inky!! b:cute0 -
Bashmaster - Raging Tide wrote: »Don't forget me inky!! b:cute
b:chuckle Okay. Those few guildies and Bash. Bash, put an alt in my guild. b:surrender0 -
Genies screwed with the game, that's all, TY for reading the truth b:bye0
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Nymphali - Dreamweaver wrote: »Genies screwed with the game, that's all, TY for reading the truth b:bye
How so?0
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