Intellectual Exercise
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
Posts: 2,822 Arc User
This is an intellectual exercise only, and not meant to be taken seriously as an actual way to play the game. Furthermore, I know very little about the Assassin class, so please forgive me if this question has an obvious answer.
Can an Assassin perma-spark with a bow, given a good enough genie, gear, and skill usage? If so, what would the attack rate be? Which cultivation (both?)?
Can an Assassin perma-spark with a bow, given a good enough genie, gear, and skill usage? If so, what would the attack rate be? Which cultivation (both?)?
Post edited by Elenacostel - Heavens Tear on
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Comments
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Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »This is an intellectual exercise only, and not meant to be taken seriously as an actual way to play the game. Furthermore, I know very little about the Assassin class, so please forgive me if this question has an obvious answer.
Can an Assassin perma-spark with a bow, given a good enough genie, gear, and skill usage? If so, what would the attack rate be? Which cultivation (both?)?
With full interval gear I am base 1 aps and sparked at 1.33 and that is with a 0.05 int bow. Not sure if its even possible to perma spark with a bow.Lets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
Well the highest possible APS (unsparked) with a bow is the base for a fist (1.43) and sparked is 1.82 (If I remember right) which would mean with windshield or something the aps would be like 1.54 or so.
But basically if the sin has a pair of crappy daggers or something that they can use for inner harmony, tackling slash, and/or rising dragon strike...it is possible they could be a technical perma-spark.Nothing worthwhile to mention here, enjoy the animated signature~
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_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »But basically if the sin has a pair of crappy daggers or something that they can use for inner harmony, tackling slash, and/or rising dragon strike...it is possible they could be a technical perma-spark.
That's basically what I'm looking for. Swapping in daggers to cast chi-gain skills and switching back to bow. Given the cooldown for those skills and all, along with Cloud Eruption, is perma-spark possible?
I suppose we should exclude melee skills, since with a bow you would not be close to the target.0 -
But accounting any Assassin skills other than Inner Harmony for chi gain is going to make it impractical at the very least, impossible at the most, what with having to go to melee range and away, or risk using the bow in melee range.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Doesn't entering stealth give a spark?0
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_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »Well the highest possible APS (unsparked) with a bow is the base for a fist (1.43) and sparked is 1.82 (If I remember right) which would mean with windshield or something the aps would be like 1.54 or so.
But basically if the sin has a pair of crappy daggers or something that they can use for inner harmony, tackling slash, and/or rising dragon strike...it is possible they could be a technical perma-spark.
Ah yes I see what you are saying now, yes switching out the daggers briefly right after you start or nead the end of a spark you could perma spark with a bow or atleast for a while. I think at 2.86 aps spark with daggers I think you run out of perma spark after 3 to 4 sparks (sit needed ) I maybe off with that.
Also what bow would give a base aps of 1.43 with int gear? just wonderingLets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
This is just in theory, but you should at least be able to get close.
To permaspark you'd need to regain 20 chi a second (300 chi over 15 seconds), I'm disregarding spark casting times here for my own convenience b:chuckle
A decent genie with 100 MAG and a bit of DEX would regain 230 chi from chi siphon every ~55 seconds = 4.18 chi/sec
Inner harmony gives you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec
White Tea would give you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec
Rising Dragon Strike would give you 150 chi every 32 sec (chan+cast+cool) = 4.69 chi/sec. Only this requires you to equip daggers and get close to your target, making the use of a bow rather obsolete.
If you can then get a reasonable 1 APS while demon sparked with a bow, you should get 3.5 chi per second (4 chi/sec minus a bit of wasted time on skill usage) and then you should have:
3.33+4.18+3.33+4.69+3.5 = 19.03 chi/sec
So we're just barely short of the needed 20 chi/sec and counting in any lag or other delays it shouldn't be possible to permaspark, but it's pretty close.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »But accounting any Assassin skills other than Inner Harmony for chi gain is going to make it impractical at the very least, impossible at the most, what with having to go to melee range and away, or risk using the bow in melee range.
Yes I did not take that into account, even with 2 spark pots and harmony, even using WE andWP I doubt it can be done, or run out very quickly.Lets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »This is just in theory, but you should at least be able to get close.
To permaspark you'd need to regain 20 chi a second (300 chi over 15 seconds), I'm disregarding spark casting times here for my own convenience b:chuckle
A decent genie with 100 MAG and a bit of DEX would regain 230 chi from chi siphon every ~55 seconds = 4.18 chi/sec
Inner harmony gives you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec
White Tea would give you 200 chi every 60 sec = 3.33 chi/sec
Rising Dragon Strike would give you 150 chi every 32 sec (chan+cast+cool) = 4.69 chi/sec. Only this requires you to equip daggers and get close to your target, making the use of a bow rather obsolete.
If you can then get a reasonable 1 APS while demon sparked with a bow, you should get 3.5 chi per second (4 chi/sec minus a bit of wasted time on skill usage) and then you should have:
3.33+4.18+3.33+4.69+3.5 = 19.03 chi/sec
So we're just barely short of the needed 20 chi/sec and counting in any lag or other delays it shouldn't be possible to permaspark, but it's pretty close.
This.
However, sage Assassin's would have a bit more chi gain potential over demon, having the Master Li's Technique, a chance at gaining 3 sparks with sage Inner Harmony, and an additional 30 chi on Rising Dragon Strike (making it 180, not 150). Though, the channel on Master Li's Technique and the need to get in melee range to use RDS downgrades their usefulness somewhat.
I only mention this because the OP mentioned culti and I think it can play a small factor here.A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »That's basically what I'm looking for. Swapping in daggers to cast chi-gain skills and switching back to bow. Given the cooldown for those skills and all, along with Cloud Eruption, is perma-spark possible?
I suppose we should exclude melee skills, since with a bow you would not be close to the target.
2 spark pot is a 60 second cooldown, Inner Harmony (excluding Tackling Slash and Rising Dragon since they are melee range), cloud erupt.....I would think a theoritical point of view it would be possible.
As for implementing the idea in the game...I wish you luck as it would be very hard in my personal opinion as the best I can get back after using a triple spark is about a spark and a half and that is starting with 399 chi.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Doesn't entering stealth give a spark?sachelfunlol wrote: »Ah yes I see what you are saying now, yes switching out the daggers briefly right after you start or nead the end of a spark you could perma spark with a bow or atleast for a while. I think at 2.86 aps spark with daggers I think you run out of perma spark after 3 to 4 sparks (sit needed ) I maybe off with that.
Also what bow would give a base aps of 1.43 with int gear? just wondering
Any bow that has -.1 on it (Heaven Shatter, R9 bow, Crafted bow) would allow you to hit 1.43 with all other -interval gear equiped.
But now that I think about it....if you include the r8 recast you have another possible -.15 so actually you might be able to hit 2.00 or a bit above if you can roll -.15 on the boots and chest...
So right now with my thinking...the interval is..
-.15 (r8 recast chest) + -.15 (r8 recast boots) + -.1 (Twilight or NV Wrists) + -.1 (Heaven Shatter or a Crafted bow with -.1) + -.05 (Tome) + -.05 (cape) -.05 (lionheart neck + belt combo) + -.05 (NV Pants) = 0.7 total....(Up to 0.75 if you find a bow that has -.15 on it instead of -.1)
So a bow's base attack speed is 0.67.. ugh >.<...WTB> Math cleric or archer to figure this part out T_T
Basically from 0.67 the attack speed increase should put somebody near 2.00 or above it..but Idk how much it would exactly be and w/o pwcalc up it's hurting my brain trying to figure it out T_TNothing worthwhile to mention here, enjoy the animated signature~
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I thought apothecaries have 2 minute cooldowns, not 1 minute.0
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All of the pots i've used have a 1 minute to 1:30 cooldown, never had any with a 2 minute nor have I encountered any with it.Nothing worthwhile to mention here, enjoy the animated signature~
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_Perses_ wrote:
Any bow that has -.1 on it (Heaven Shatter, R9 bow, Crafted bow) would allow you to hit 1.43 with all other -interval gear equiped.
hmm, even with a .1 int bow that would only put me at 1.05 base aps with full int gear, what am I missing on this
for reference
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=279561Lets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
sachelfunlol wrote: »hmm, even with a .1 int bow that would only put me at 1.05 base aps with full int gear, what am I missing on this
for reference
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=279561
TT99 LA Writs + TT99 LA Boots = -.15
TT99 HA Neck + TT99 HA Belt = -.05
Recast LA NV Pants = -.05
R8 Chest = -.1
Tome = -.05
Bow = -.1 (Heaven Shatterer)
That should get you to what everyone else has come up with.A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »TT99 LA Writs + TT99 LA Boots = -.15
TT99 HA Neck + TT99 HA Belt = -.05
Recast LA NV Pants = -.05
R8 Chest = -.1
Tome = -.05
Bow = -.1 (Heaven Shatterer)
That should get you to what everyone else has come up with.
With heaven Shatter's .067 attack and -.10 int rate your build puts it at 1 aps according to the aps chart on the archer forums. Add in the the int cape you did not list that i have puts me at 1.05 base aps, which is one .05 int faster than I am with a .05 int bow.Lets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »All of the pots i've used have a 1 minute to 1:30 cooldown, never had any with a 2 minute nor have I encountered any with it.
Oh, I compared with Death River Toxin which has 2 minute cooldown.
If White Tea is 1 minute cooldown I think it's possible to almost perma-spark with an assassin.0 -
I need pwcalc to be back up, makes my task of adding together interval to be easier...
But I might of mixed up the unsparked and sparked attack speed. I know 1.43 is the highest I have ever gotten with -int + bow so it might of been under a demon spark but idr really. It's been a long time since i've bothered with using a bow and interval gear together.
Elenacostel: Yeah I have never seen a White Tea take longer than a minute to get off CD (mainly because I use to spam them as much as possible in TW so I could just do my bell + marrows as I ran and could stun + dragons right off the bat)Nothing worthwhile to mention here, enjoy the animated signature~
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_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »I need pwcalc to be back up, makes my task of adding together interval to be easier...
But I might of mixed up the unsparked and sparked attack speed. I know 1.43 is the highest I have ever gotten with -int + bow so it might of been under a demon spark but idr really. It's been a long time since i've bothered with using a bow and interval gear together.
Elenacostel: Yeah I have never seen a White Tea take longer than a minute to get off CD (mainly because I use to spam them as much as possible in TW so I could just do my bell + marrows as I ran and could stun + dragons right off the bat)
That might be my confusion, when I hear base aps, that tells me unsparked aps, when I hear sparked aps, I come to think of that as well spark b:chuckle. But lol i think that is the confusion,I think in the context base aps was indeed meaning to be sparked aspLets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »I need pwcalc to be back up, makes my task of adding together interval to be easier...
But I might of mixed up the unsparked and sparked attack speed. I know 1.43 is the highest I have ever gotten with -int + bow so it might of been under a demon spark but idr really. It's been a long time since i've bothered with using a bow and interval gear together.
Elenacostel: Yeah I have never seen a White Tea take longer than a minute to get off CD (mainly because I use to spam them as much as possible in TW so I could just do my bell + marrows as I ran and could stun + dragons right off the bat)
The 1.43 is probaly sparked, with my .05 int bow I hit around 1.3x another .05 int would put me at te 1.43 markLets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »Any bow that has -.1 on it (Heaven Shatter, R9 bow, Crafted bow) would allow you to hit 1.43 with all other -interval gear equiped.
But that's only true for Demon Spark. And I'm pretty sure that Sage would be better for this case, since Sages have a better RDS and better IH in terms of chi gain.But now that I think about it....if you include the r8 recast you have another possible -.15 so actually you might be able to hit 2.00 or a bit above if you can roll -.15 on the boots and chest...
Not even close, actually. The total -interval from Wrists, Ornaments, Cape, Tome and Bow is -0.35. Add to that -0.4 from R8 recast (-0.15 on chest and boots, -0.1 as set bonus) and you're down to -0.75. Bows start at just double that, or 1.5, so we're left with 0.75. That is, 1.33 aps unsparked. Spark and you're down to 1.82.
1.82 aps isn't even close to being enough for any kind of permasparking, no matter what you try.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Can someone tell me the cooldown of God's Tea and whether or not you need to be part of a land-owning faction to craft it?0
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Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Can someone tell me the cooldown of God's Tea and whether or not you need to be part of a land-owning faction to craft it?
Either land owning or have a base, but no idea other than that, all I can make is 1.5 sparks with lvl 7 craft at apoLets troll the forums together b:victory0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Can someone tell me the cooldown of God's Tea and whether or not you need to be part of a land-owning faction to craft it?
You don't need to own land to craft God's Tea (150 chi), but you do need land to craft White Tea (200 chi). No idea about the cooldown actually, but I guess it's indeed 2 mins like other apoths (made an error in my last post).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »You don't need to own land to craft God's Tea (150 chi), but you do need land to craft White Tea (200 chi). No idea about the cooldown actually, but I guess it's indeed 2 mins like other apoths (made an error in my last post).
Wait, Perses said that the cooldown of White Tea is 1 minute, and you say "2 mins like other apoths". When you say "other apoths" that would imply White Tea is also 2 minutes.
I'm so confused...0 -
All apothecary has a 2 minute cooldown, there are no exceptions I can think of.
Nowitsawn has the best analysis although firing a bow at 1.33 aps generates 6.66 chi per second for 15 seconds. You need 3 sparks every 18 seconds basically to maintain a normal spark cycle so
Target = 300 / 18 = 16.66 chi/sec
Firing bow = 6.66 chi per sec * 15/18 = 5.55 chi/s
Inner Harmoney = 2spark / 60 = 3.33 chi/sec
100 mag genie chi siphon = 2 spark * 3/166 = 3.6 chi/sec
white tea = 2spark /120 = 1.66
shadow escape = 1spark / 90 = 1.11 chi/s
total = 15.25 chi/sec
Thats pretty close and doesnt use rising dragon strike or tackling slash. If you add 1.5 seconds of down time every spark cycle for doing a dagger skill before the 3 second downtime of spark burst you can permaspark.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Culivation: Demon
Equipment:
Bow: Seraphic Shooter: Sky - new PvE bow with +60 Slaying Levels. This bow has no -interval stat. Alternatively, you can use Nirvana 2nd cast, which is comparable to R8 bow.
Equipment: No R8 recasts. Standard -interval equipment: R8 Chest, Nirvana Legs, LA Wrist, LA set bonus, HA set bonus, Tome, Cape.
Skills / Chi Gain:Chi Gain Cooldown Execution Time Technique Name +200 Chi 060 sec 001 Inner Harmony +100 Chi 075 sec 003 Shadow Escape (Demon) +200 Chi 056 sec 001 Chi Siphon (level 10) +200 Chi 120 sec 001 White Tea +010 Chi 060 sec 001 Wolf's Emblem
Timing:
- 0.95 a/s unsparked
- 1.18 a/s sparked
- I estimate switching weapons to be 1 second
- I estimate using apothecary to be 1 second (it pauses any auto-attack).
- I estimate casting Inner Harmony and Wolf's Emblem to be 1 second since it pauses any auto-attack (please confirm). I recognize they "cast instantly", but if you cannot attack while casting them, then 1 second is a reasonable execution time.
Attack Cycle:Current Chi Time Elapsed Event 300 Chi 000 sec Start 000 Chi 003 sec Triple Spark 200 Chi 003 sec Chi Siphon 285 Chi 018 sec 17 sparked attacks 290 Chi 020 sec 1 regular attack 290 Chi 021 sec Equip Daggers 300 Chi 022 sec Wolf's Emblem 000 Chi 025 sec Triple Spark / Equip Bow 085 Chi 040 sec 17 sparked attacks 085 Chi 041 sec Equip Daggers 285 Chi 042 sec Inner Harmony 285 Chi 043 sec Equip Bow 300 Chi 047 sec 3 regular attacks 000 Chi 050 sec Triple Spark 085 Chi 065 sec 17 sparked attacks 100 Chi 069 sec 3 regular attacks 100 Chi 070 sec Equip Daggers 200 Chi 073 sec Shadow Escape 200 Chi 074 sec Equip Bow 400 Chi 075 sec White Tea -- 75 second mid-point -- 400 Chi 075 sec Start 100 Chi 078 sec Triple Spark 300 Chi 078 sec Chi Siphon 385 Chi 093 sec 17 sparked attacks 390 Chi 095 sec 1 regular attack 390 Chi 096 sec Equip Daggers 400 Chi 097 sec Wolf's Emblem 100 Chi 100 sec Triple Spark / Equip Bow 185 Chi 115 sec 17 sparked attacks 185 Chi 116 sec Equip Daggers 385 Chi 117 sec Inner Harmony 385 Chi 118 sec Equip Bow 400 Chi 122 sec 3 regular attacks 100 Chi 125 sec Triple Spark 185 Chi 140 sec 17 sparked attacks 200 Chi 144 sec 3 regular attacks 200 Chi 145 sec Equip Daggers 300 Chi 148 sec Shadow Escape 300 Chi 149 sec Equip Bow 300 Chi 150 sec 1 second due to player lag
About 88% of the attacks are sparked. With a Nirvana bow with -interval, it will be an even greater percentage.
At the midpoint, each of the chi gain techniques is used only once. The second half is identical to the first, but has no use of White Tea. Thus, White Tea is used once in the 150 second cycle.
Now to wait for pwcalc.com to come back up to see who does more damage - this type of assassin or an archer with the same bow and equipment. I may have to go on a rampage if drugged up assassins can be better archers than non-R9 archers. To compare them, Archers get Bow Mastery and Blazing Arrow. Assassins get more attacks that are sparked which is both a damage boost and an attack speed boost b/c of Demon spark. Furthermore, Assassins get Wolf's Emblem to help increase damage.0 -
Very nice, but as to your question, I doubt a sin can out dd a archer with same build/gear and bow, we do not have the bow mastery, which is the same reason a fist/claw sins fails with the dmg ability(aside of different stat req), no fist/clawl mastery. Archers have that edge, all we have is is the dex multiplier and triple spark.Lets troll the forums together b:victory0
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sachelfunlol wrote: »Very nice, but as to your question, I doubt a sin can out dd a archer with same build/gear and bow, we do not have the bow mastery, which is the same reason a fist/claw sins fails with the dmg ability(aside of different stat req), no fist/clawl mastery. Archers have that edge, all we have is is the dex multiplier and triple spark.
Archers cannot maintain triple spark as often as the sequence of events above. That's the key; instead of Bow Mastery and Blazing Arrow, assassins essentially get an extra spark cycle every 75 seconds or so.
EDIT: And apparently I did not know the existence of Wolf Emblem. Someone tell me the description at ecatomb.net is incorrect, or perhaps it's bugged?0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »EDIT: And apparently I did not know the existence of Wolf Emblem. Someone tell me the description at ecatomb.net is incorrect, or perhaps it's bugged?
Um, Wolf Emblem increases crit damage by 30% at lvl 10, 20% as sage (lasts for 30 minutes though), and 40% as demon.
I do remember a debate going on about whether it was actually increased crit damage or crit chance. I don't remember what the final decision was.
I'll do a check test.
Wolf Emblem increases crit damage, not crit chance. I don't think its bugged.A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »Wolf Emblem increases crit damage, not crit chance. I don't think its bugged.
I assumed Rage Damage is Attack Level. Is that incorrect?
What's the chi gain for casting it?0
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