What happened to Venos?

FanFon - Dreamweaver · February 2012

What is this 3.0 sin talk? There are no 3.0 sins.b:chuckle

BlackRapture - Raging Tide · February 2012

Hehe.. I gotta say, everyone sure likes blaming sins and aps on the disappearing veno issue. I'm not gonna deny that there is an over abundance of them, but allow me to point out a couple things.

1. A lot of people are lazy. It takes work to use a veno to even half of her potential. Assassins? 99% of EVERY assassin I have met are complete noobs, and worse yet- free loaders. Always asking for coin or for your stuff you worked to get. Please don't tell me I'm the only one they come to >.>

2. Venos are the most versatile class on the game. Most venos either don't realize that or don't care. But venos were not intended strictly for being arcane. Even a sin has to have decent gear to go anywhere, and so should a veno. If you wanna succeed as a veno, you gotta know what you're doing. You can go fully arcane and be squishy and hit hard but pet dependent, HA, and tank like a boss (if you know what you're doing, and if you got cash flow to refine), or go LA to be a low DD, a not so useful tank, but you survive zerk aoe's.

3. If you know what you're doing, late-game you can really put out some massive damage. Before any boss I tank for a squad, I tell them- Don't hit until you see me spark. Of course' no one wants to hear that they gotta wait, but it's worth it. Sage Soul Degen. There goes 1/5 of the fight. Sage amp/EP. 50% more damage served on a silver platter. Spark, myriad. If you don't get your armor break, use your pet's pierce. I stack that, and we're talking over 10k per hit at lvl 95. I do 11-12k with my casts. You want to be in a squad, then try seeing how you can be a benefit to the squad.

Now on this note, my #1 problem no matter what I'm doing is lag. Being squishy and having a 5 second delay to everything you do, be it heal your pet or run through exploding hands, you learn how to adapt and get better.

Cody_tylor - Sanctuary · February 2012

Nine_Lives - Raging Tide wrote: »

POWERLEVELING HAPPENED

Venos are the worst toons to powerlevel, given that our pets do not always level with us side to side. Unlike mystics, whose summons are automatically the same level as them when they call them out, a veno's pet takes time to get xp to level. As grinding became outdated being tooo time consuming, players that roll venos become fewer and fewer. Thye rather see the instant gratification of buying their levels in the game than actually play the game as it was supposed to be played by doing quests.

Playing a good veno is a labor of love nowadays...and I would not have it any other way no matter what built I may end up with b:cute

I laughed so hard at this quote, sadly this is 100% true. Biggest reason, lazy noobs don't want to grind, or even bother going to cube and knock up those ancient dooms at worst (that one is too boring so meh).

Like if 5 APS BM/Sin messed up TT runs, the mats sell good still. Shucks... The QQers don't know the expense, paying tripled the amount than a herc, that's not even it, paying for pots, charms as a plus, paying to open TT with a certain buff (usually BP, Golden bell, Aegis shield, magic shell, beast king's inspiration and strength of the titans) and most importantly 10x more of a bigger repair bill. If they are not lucky enough, they aren't making much coin as the fox with herc. Both spend tons, but who gains more? Unless it is 2x and / or drops are decent on the run, fox have the upper hand here, cheaper and not that much needed to solo. Not only that it takes little thought to use a veno with herc, all you do is just heal pet and let the herc do all the killing, you will have almost no repairs and certainly no buffs they ask for really.

If they can't play a fox right, they should not bother with other classes unless they cash shop... Fox have it easiest if you are willing to be patient or at least get proper gear.

denyer · February 2012

speaking of "what happend to Venos?" i returned today from about 2009 or so, and my veno is gone...

tweakz · February 2012

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Though the other classes get more attack from their skills then venos do, which is why we get more spark damage.(besides the fact that we don't get channeling either xD)

Wiz gets more dmg, wiz takes another second to channel. -Pretty much the sum of it in regards to all casters and dmg vs time spent ch/cast. Just compare the time it takes for 2 level 10 aoes for Wiz vs Veno, and the total dmg. Wiz would likely follow up something like MS with Hailstorm while Veno would use Nova + Noxious. While MS beasts Nova: Noxious beats Hailstorm.

Also consider roles: A wiz's use in PvE is very limited. Rebirth and Caster Nirvana is where they're most wanted. While I'm putting attack levels on my Veno: I'm putting major defense on my other casters. My veno has an easier time getting into any squad, and generally performs better built on a smaller budget.

Mystic summons trash our pets, but Mystics are weak in Warsong and annoy some in Rebirth.

I have to disagree on venos being wanted. Even on HT there are more fail venos than good venos. I'll just bring up the most recent experience where I began on BHD in OHT: Another veno comes up and asks for invite, then invites me (just send me the frickin invite -don't make me right click your name and invite when I'm spam healing/ killing). -This veno doesn't cast Ironwood, doesn't amp. Another veno comes along begging to be added (and we get through about 50% of it's HP before they begin to start helping. 75% before they summon a pet. 25% left to go and they're still relying on the veno with the Herc that's tanking to Ironwood and Amp.

9 out of 10 venos on HT are horrible.

What happened to Veno? - People stopped telling fail players to roll a veno, and now tell them to roll Assassins. Now we have an abundance of worthless Assassins as well as venos.

Itori - Lost City wrote: »

I'm a chi machine :O be it PvP or PvE I'm always offering my sparks like candy. xP Though, honestly it only gets better if you are sage/demon with ○crush vigor PLUS have ●/○ Lending Hand, which reduces the cooldown from the very long 60 seconds to a mere 15.

-When your own dmg / toon sucks. It's like a wiz that undines for the other mages that do actual dmg. If you are DD (which all classes are): you use those sparks.

Sumine - Dreamweaver · February 2012

This thread pretty much scares me. I was planning to start a Venomancer but this thread makes them seem worthless. Someone please post something positive about these lovely ladies?

Desdi - Sanctuary · February 2012

They are not useless, people think they are.

Sumine - Dreamweaver · February 2012

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

They are not useless, people think they are.

So true T__T it saddens me though. Why would anyone call them useless? Just because most people prefer those Assassins and now Mystics over us doesn't mean we are useless now. A Venomancer who knows what she's doing is a force to be reckoned with.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear · February 2012

Sumine - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This thread pretty much scares me. I was planning to start a Venomancer but this thread makes them seem worthless. Someone please post something positive about these lovely ladies?

Defense mechanism. In the period of 2008-2009 , every spoiled child with his daddy's credit card started a veno , knowing how to play or not and felt like king of the game.

This doesnt apply now , while cashshopping gives much power , cashshopping + experience makes any class *god* like. The *easy* class is now considered to be assassin. Of course this is false as well , cause if u want to play a sin well u need time and practise with him/her. But the idiots dont know that and dont care to.

Since most fails move to sins due to venos *bad* reputation , it works as a effective filter for the good veno population.

Lately most venos i have seen are getting better and better , and that is cause u need to be competitive to stand out and have the chance to do other things here other than grinding. As a veno myself, i always try to learn from my superiors , and kindly teach the inferiors.

Bad players are everywhere , the trick is how to make them less annoying and actually willing to improve themselves

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · February 2012

Venos can still solo more stuff, sooner, with a lower investment, and aren't dependent on getting buffs from other classes to do it, even if the current popular classes end up being able to solo stuff that venos can't, and solo it faster (after a much higher investment, and with much higher repair and consumable bills.)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · February 2012

Well the game is a couple years old now and what has kept alot of people playing is the relationships they've made. The veno used to be the ultimate "solo" class, and now they aren't as useful as other solo classes and mostly people just want them in their squad for amps.

If one of my veno friends isn't online when I vana I'll try WCing for a random and can almost never find a veno, then I see them QQing in forums or WC about not being needed. Usually if I do get one its a demon veno who can't figure out how to debuff properly (I know, 20% chance on ironwood proccing, but also reasonable odds twice from Myriads. Should be up at least half the time, and amp 26/30 seconds.)

Nine_Lives - Raging Tide · February 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well the game is a couple years old now and what has kept alot of people playing is the relationships they've made. The veno used to be the ultimate "solo" class, and now they aren't as useful as other solo classes and mostly people just want them in their squad for amps.

If one of my veno friends isn't online when I vana I'll try WCing for a random and can almost never find a veno, then I see them QQing in forums or WC about not being needed. Usually if I do get one its a demon veno who can't figure out how to debuff properly (I know, 20% chance on ironwood proccing, but also reasonable odds twice from Myriads. Should be up at least half the time, and amp 26/30 seconds.)

Sad thing for most demon venos is they are so rarely invited in nirv ( even with demon amp/ paranova ) they mostly don't have and idea and are too shy even to ask at times what to dob:surrender . If a sage veno slips up there the squad is a bit more forgiving but they will step on a demon veno's throat if she does (BE THANKFUL THAT WE EVEN INVITED YOU!)

Sad to say a lot of hi level venos both sage and demon don't have the myriads.Nearly all of the sage venos in my fac don't have those. I was even told not to get them both by mostly sage venos because it's a waste of mana and procs rarely (''Believe me Nine, Sage amp, degen and purge is all you need in vana, don't get those''). If you see one that does not do it chances are she listened to some ignorant older venos or simply does not know it.

I always tell the other venos in my fac not to be afraid to ask questions when you're in a squad. What may work for one may not work for another. I've been to squads which told me NEVER to bring out my pet ever. I've been to some that let my pet out for debuffs.

Foxy ladies, it's not idiocy to ask properly what to do. It may save you a lot of grief in the end

Itori - Lost City · February 2012

tweakz wrote: »

-When your own dmg / toon sucks. It's like a wiz that undines for the other mages that do actual dmg. If you are DD (which all classes are): you use those sparks.

Right. I've actually triple sparked when some other DD has asked me for sparks, that makes me a little spark ***** doesnt it? No... I've played classes other than veno and recognize those Uh-oh! moments when they need chi. If no one does, I usually do the amp> myraid > spark > myraid cycle. But lets all make assumptions right? If I want to be a pro DD I shouldnt amp either cause other classes should be doing the debuffing to my awesome damage!

Right. Now I see what happend to venos. It's always one extreme or another with most of them tbh, it's either, full support or full DD veno. Somehow knowing how to do both well is impossible right? right?

you've... bored me. These forums arent even worth wasting time on anymore. Bye Bye

have fun trolling

Desdi - Sanctuary · February 2012

What Nine_Lives said -.-

So many Caster Nirvanas with so many other venomancers and 95% of then didn't have lvl11 Amplify or even Sage/Demon Lending Hand which is so damn useful there and not expensive either (plus it can be made via cube). It's even sadder a few times venomancer in squad went like "How can you pass sparks so fast O.O" and it turns out they had no idea about the shorter cooldown.

Really?
How did they even choose their culti if they didn't check out the damn skills?

As for Myriads, that's another very sad story.

tweakz · February 2012

Itori - Lost City wrote: »

Right. Now I see what happend to venos. It's always one extreme or another with most of them tbh, it's either, full support or full DD veno. Somehow knowing how to do both well is impossible right? right?

-well said.

Pressa - Heavens Tear · February 2012

tweakz wrote: »

Wiz gets more dmg, wiz takes another second to channel. -Pretty much the sum of it in regards to all casters and dmg vs time spent ch/cast. Just compare the time it takes for 2 level 10 aoes for Wiz vs Veno, and the total dmg. Wiz would likely follow up something like MS with Hailstorm while Veno would use Nova + Noxious. While MS beasts Nova: Noxious beats Hailstorm.
Okay I gotta ask who the hell uses hailstorm when they are a wizard? SOMETIMES sometimes useful entirely situational its easier to use the 79 skills or seal them. Wizard has lots of decrease channel things and naturally gets more damage to start with then a veno would per magic. Yes the higher level skills have a greater channeling time but more damage potential then a veno can produce with equal time of skills. (you can't tell me BIDs would do the same amount as nova + anything else it doesn't have that long of a casting time.) Combine all this with the channeling decrease the wizards can get and the fact demon skills reduce the channel of some of the skill. ;3 damage potential is much higher on a wizard then a veno can produce.
Don't mistake me though I know veno can hit some high numbers but with undine strike and the wizards natural attack str the wizard wins out by leaps and bounds.

Also consider roles: A wiz's use in PvE is very limited. Rebirth and Caster Nirvana is where they're most wanted. While I'm putting attack levels on my Veno: I'm putting major defense on my other casters. My veno has an easier time getting into any squad, and generally performs better built on a smaller budget.
Likely veno is relatively low budget compared to most classes

Mystic summons trash our pets, but Mystics are weak in Warsong and annoy some in Rebirth.
Yes but mystics have such aoe heals and shields and aoe debuffs so they make up for that in warsong and I'd imagine in rebirth as well.

I have to disagree on venos being wanted. Even on HT there are more fail venos than good venos. I'll just bring up the most recent experience where I began on BHD in OHT: Another veno comes up and asks for invite, then invites me (just send me the frickin invite -don't make me right click your name and invite when I'm spam healing/ killing). -This veno doesn't cast Ironwood, doesn't amp. Another veno comes along begging to be added (and we get through about 50% of it's HP before they begin to start helping. 75% before they summon a pet. 25% left to go and they're still relying on the veno with the Herc that's tanking to Ironwood and Amp.
There are definitely more failures of venos then there are good venos which is why I always love seeing a newblet veno passing sparks, amping, and asking if they should bramble. However at least in instances I see that venos are wanted despite how fail a good portion of them are.

9 out of 10 venos on HT are horrible.
I'd have to venture to move that down by one 8/10, I see several competent venos. No offense tweakz your rating system is based on whether or not they are on their game 24/7 which you have to realize just isn't possible.

/5char

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · February 2012

Venos CAN solo FC too

But where a sin can do it at a pretty low cost compared b:surrender

I think the reason that venos are held out isnt put as much on the venos going bad, as it is our actual usefulness compared to other classes. Archers, Wizards, Seekers(and now... BMs?) got continual AoEs, Venos got 2 magical AoEs, and 2 physical(Whereas 1 of each requires 2 sparks). Clerics and Mystics can heal, and rez, Psys and sins DD way harder than us. We got... amp.. Purge(wich is hardly needed with todays APS craze) and bramble. The spark passing have kinda died off for those of us left, Clerics simply dun count on us anymore, and use pots or Eruption.

The aps squads dont actually need our amp either, as a BM that triple sparks followed by a HF in some squads kill the boss within seconds. Ive actually only managed to cast amp, spark, then the boss is dead.

Venos could use a real revamp, they increased the damage of seekers, why not us too?

Soneko - Sanctuary · February 2012

I'm afraid I have to agree. The developers should either seriously adjust the other classes so they are actually in need of our skills or adjust the Venomancer so we can be a more valuable asset to a squad once more. Notice that I said 'more valuable', I still believe the Venomancer has a lot going for them but people are just too blind to see that. I'm convinced we can make a difference but lately it's hardly noticeable with all these overpowered APS-players. It makes me miss the old days when people actually wanted a diversity of players in their squad.

*prays* Developers, please give us a more useful role in the future of this Perfect World?

trulyunknown · February 2012

As seems to be the agreement in this thread, what venos are left are entirely too fail! So many now think they know what they're doing, will call themselves pro, or even claim to be the best of all time, but they have absolutely no idea at all how to play the class. The venomancer was my first toon ever created, and I still play her at 101. Her herc is 101, her nix 100. I am still working on her gear. It is full lunar nirvana, with lunar gold HA neck and belt, one lunar magic ring, and then a ring to be replaced later. Not one bit of gear is higher than +6, and my lowest refine is +3 (TT99 glaive). I am more worried, at the moment, about the sharding in my armor than my refines, and with it as it stands, I have 6.6k hp base. I have friends who will not take another veno into -any- instance if I'm online. And actually, one friend did confide to me a couple of nights ago that he did take one of the most failed venos on Dreamweaver server into nirvana twice for the sole purpose of comparing her to me. He said he wouldn't do it again.

As for the comment someone made about clerics using Cloud Erupt now instead of wanting sparks from the veno, I'd take that as a sign as to how the venomancer community is now. They don't want to have to ask 3,820,975,748,392 times to get a spark, so they ensure their sparks in one of the only ways they can. It's incredibly sad.

And being on the phone while typing this has totally made me lose my train of thought. I'll revisit later.

Nine_Lives - Raging Tide · February 2012

trulyunknown wrote: »

As seems to be the agreement in this thread, what venos are left are entirely too fail! So many now think they know what they're doing, will call themselves pro, or even claim to be the best of all time, but they have absolutely no idea at all how to play the class. The venomancer was my first toon ever created, and I still play her at 101. Her herc is 101, her nix 100. I am still working on her gear. It is full lunar nirvana, with lunar gold HA neck and belt, one lunar magic ring, and then a ring to be replaced later. Not one bit of gear is higher than +6, and my lowest refine is +3 (TT99 glaive). I am more worried, at the moment, about the sharding in my armor than my refines, and with it as it stands, I have 6.6k hp base. I have friends who will not take another veno into -any- instance if I'm online. And actually, one friend did confide to me a couple of nights ago that he did take one of the most failed venos on Dreamweaver server into nirvana twice for the sole purpose of comparing her to me. He said he wouldn't do it again.

As for the comment someone made about clerics using Cloud Erupt now instead of wanting sparks from the veno, I'd take that as a sign as to how the venomancer community is now. They don't want to have to ask 3,820,975,748,392 times to get a spark, so they ensure their sparks in one of the only ways they can. It's incredibly sad.

And being on the phone while typing this has totally made me lose my train of thought. I'll revisit later.

I did ask a few clerics about this cloud eruption thingy. They are mostly thankful when I do pass a spark around. But what really drove some to be dependent on genies for sparks is not as much the ineptitude of some venos, it's the ABSENCE of the venos. Most squads now are mostly comprised of aps toons who are chi factories in their own right, sad to say a cleric will take a fraction more time than them to recover chi. This is where the genie comes in.

Though honestly I still want to smack some venos in the head with their R8 patakas at times for being too lazy to do their support skills

Vivi - Lost City · February 2012

We are still around. Sadly, I have been in many parties where I will ask who needs chi and someone will reply, "Venos can give chi?"b:chuckle

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · February 2012

When I play as a cleric, I havent had Cloud eruption until now. I do have a good friend that also got a main veno, but when doing anything else and she aint around, theres hardly any of them. So its not that I have to ask for sparks(in fact, when getting a veno in party, I hardly have to), its simply that theres no one around to give it to me

trulyunknown · February 2012

Vivi - Lost City wrote: »

We are still around. Sadly, I have been in many parties where I will ask who needs chi and someone will reply, "Venos can give chi?"b:chuckle

My earlier train of thought is still gone, but I just have to say that this is completely true! What's worse is...when it comes from a veno. @.@ I've done runs on my cleric, who is also 101, and my Cloud Erupt (yes, I have it) is on CD and say I needed to drop BB for something and lack sparks to get it back up. I'd ask for sparks. Or if someone else in squad (BM or Seeker, for example) need for hf or to get vortex back up, -anyone- will ask veno in squad and their response is "I can do that?" Then starts the whole explanation of Lending Hand and all that blab....while trying to rectify whatever was happening with the squad. Typically only happens in lower level squads and not always an issue. But I've encountered it once while in higher level instance, want to say Aba or SoT. Still a completely mind-bending concept that a veno doesn't even know.

Back onto the Cloud Erupt thing, yeah I didn't think also of the lack of veno's. I have a tendency to run both cleric and veno in same squad (separate accounts thankfully). I do try to keep my veno's sparks, however, because of demon parasitic nova and demon ironwood, so I use Cloud Erupt first on cleric after setting up a BB before I'll pass my own cleric a spark. But my veno also has Cloud Erupt on her genie so that when I do need to pass a spark (trials is a good example of this and will explain in a minute), my veno can still keep her sparks around 2.5-3 after passing the spark.
In trials, I run into the issue a lot. My typical squad for trials is my veno and cleric both getting into a squad with 2 other people dual-clienting as well. It tends to be 2 clerics, veno, sin, bm, and then one of the other peoples' random toon: seeker, sin, barb, or whatever we decided we want. My cleric is usually DD'ing on macro while I focus on veno, but should the other cleric's bb drop enough times that there aren't sparks, then my cleric is on BB until it drops enough times that I lack sparks. If the person playing the other cleric went afk and couldn't be ready for my bb dropping that third or fourth time, then I pass a spark to my cleric. But I worry most about passing my cleric sparks when we're on boss and neither of us can keep BB and sparks. My cleric's genie doesn't regen quick enough, so on the bosses I pass so many sparks that my veno can't get parasitic nova going off. Thankfully our faction has a couple of bm's with demon hf, so I don't worry so much about my 1/3 hf.
Another note about the trials, though. My veno is the only one we have online for trials, so I do need to focus on her more than my cleric. Yay for Earth room in Trial 1. >.>

Pressa - Heavens Tear · February 2012

b:surrender honestly I try to pass sparks and keep my support skills up constantly sometimes I just don't do it but its rare.....

One thing that annoys the hell out of me is when the BM the cleric ask for sparks at the same time roughly as if the other one didn't say it, then pester me when I don't pass any one of them sparks instantly. I have in fact been called a failure back when I didn't have sage lending hand yet for not passing sparks to both the BM and the cleric in what the BM though was too long of a time frame. I had to explain to him that my spark passing had a minute cool down, which apparently he didn't understand because it was repeated a couple of times. That was a very lucky BM, lucky the cleric was leader and not me.

Or better yet they complain as soon as we get in the instance, now I don't know about ya'll but I don't go around constantly 3 sparked. They basically ask for a spark as soon as we enter and whine and wonder whats taking so long for me to build a spark count.

thats what the cloud eruption is for but thats not the point Dx sometimes I don't have that genie equipped.

trulyunknown · February 2012

I told myself I was just checking to see if there were new posts to this thread, that I wasn't going to post. LoL.

Yeah, I don't know about most veno's. As soon as I decide I'll be doing something on my veno (not sitting in catshop, for example, or just switching gear), I build 3 sparks. It's just a personal need to have 3 sparks before I start anything. But I was just reminded about all the times in FC when I was leveling my veno.
Because my veno was my first character, I was completely unsure of how things were done and whatnot. The faction I was in at level 75 decided they'd run training runs: do a FC run with 2 level 100 characters and the rest of squad with toons in a range of 75+, teaching us what to do, what not to do, etc, etc. My first ever FC, I was told I needed to have amp, purge (not for the instance itself but as an "You'll need it later so get it now if you don't"), and lending hand. So I learned it for that first fc. In later FC's, my veno would sometimes take the job of the bm. It wasn't easy, by any means, and I can't even explain how I managed to do it. All I know for certain is if not for parasitic nova, it never would have worked. But any time I died in those runs, there were issues for everyone else. No chaotic effect was like no stun, really. So the cleric would res us all...and immediately people in squad. "Veno, pass me spark." "Need spark." I can't count all the runs where I entered into squad chat multiple times: "I just died, I just res'd, I DON'T HAVE SPARKS."
Ah, the good old times. XD

I don't get pestered for sparks so much anymore. Sometimes, I miss it. Other times, I'm glad for it. >.>

Castgurl - Raging Tide · February 2012

*Sigh*

-Grabs a drink-

I miss the glory days of venos. b:cry When we were the op solo'n class for TT instances and more. And people screaming at venos with nixs in TW and vent. Ahhh damn you lil fishies!

-Drinks more-

I remember heal spamming my pet for chi in bh51 on RT (2nd server). There was another veno in the squad.

Veno: What r u doing?
Me: Charging chi.
Veno: O_O HOW CAN U GET CHI DOING THAT?!
Me: ....

Ohhh and this one was unforgivable -Grabs another drink- this was in TT2-3, the ape boss (aka during the time when you neeeeeded TWO venos to get past it smooth.)

Me: Hun, what level is your amp? ^_^
Veno: Huh?
Me: Your amp??
Veno: What's that?
Me: ...It's a fox skill
Veno: But I'm mag build, not fox build
Me:...You got purge?
Veno: Umm, no idea what's that lol
Barb: omfg ><
Me (Whispers to Barb) : Nice ****ing going on inviting this thing >_>

But yeah. I just pass sparks like no tomorrow in FCs and pretty much sit there and amp. BORING ><; I miss the pre-sin days. I get bothered for chi and bramble on my veno and I get bothered for buffs on my poor nab barb...>>;

like really now?

lmao. b:surrender

What happened to Venos?

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