Selling TM Lunar

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

At no point did I say that you would rip off your clients, or that you were even likely too. Re-read again, Zanryu. I do know Jans, T_i_m, and xCurse of course.

Slivaf has the right of it. I was more concerned with:

(a) the possibility foul play (if nobody is watch-dogging you, there is nobody to stop you from committing foul play if you wanted to; again, nowhere did I say you were likely to, but the possibility and certainly temptation must be there).

(b) demonstrating through logic that Ds had valid points. The bandwagon of 'lets bash people who aren't afraid to speak their minds" gets old really fast guys. Regardless of who the speaker is, the words should be read for their own merit. Ds could have just as easily have posted from an anonymous alt character. If this would have affected how you read his thoughts, then you are doing it wrong. Again, the points he brought up were valid.

Basically the concern a buyer would have is that, yes, IF you do things in a morally upstanding manner, you are saving them money. Nonetheless, 40mil is a lot to shell out. I can just see it now where a buyer forks out 30 mil to get 6 medals, and then you guys, I dunno, don't do any runs for a week. For whatever the reason, it could be that your computer crashed... your grandma is ill... or... maybe you just didn't feel like it? I the buyer wouldn't know, and I can garuantee you that I'd probably be pretty pissed that 30mil of my coin is gone with nothing to show for it. When dealing with this much money, it would be reassuring to buyers to have some sort of guarantee that they'll have something to show for it shortly afterwards.

As evidence to show that this IS a concern, I brought forward my experience in dealing with people who had done tm79 runs, but were subsequently abandoned by the people doing the runs. Now, having forked out 5mil and having nothing to show for it is one thing. 20mil+ is another thing altogether. The greater the amount of money people are paying you for your service, the greater your responsibility to the client to make sure you finish what you promise in a efficient, trustworthy manner.

L2R + L2T = Learn to read AND learn to think.

Azzazin

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Unlike you perhaps, Zanryu, I have at least a shred of sympathy for those who get scammed by others. Perhaps you are on of the those people who would walk by a catshop selling tokens for 5mil and laugh at it, check it every now and then to see if somebody got suckered into it? Hmm?

I don't give a rats *** if you think its not my business or not. I think that if somebody were to get scammed, they'd make sure its everybody's business. Still, it would be too late then, wouldn't it: they were already scammed.

You don't give a rat's *** about my opinion? They may very well not give a rat's *** about yours in much the same way.

With the amounts of $ this involves, there is clearly the temptation. I'm not a buyer, but if I was a buyer, and I didn't personally know the players selling TM Lunar, I'd be more than a bit edgy handing over 40mil on good faith. To these people who don't know you, you have to establish your good intentions if you want to avoid backlash. For example, when Ds and I do tm79, we don't have anybody pay till after we did our first run, thus establishing that (a) we can do the runs, and (b) that the runs will be completed in the time promised. There may be other clever ways to do this that I haven't thought of, but which I am sure I would need to were I to sell TM lunar.

As those who have done TM runs for some time know, it can be quite difficult to fit in the person who needs 4 medals into the squad of people who need 8 medals. If you let the person with 4 medals go early, you have to replace him, and it can take quite a while to do this sometimes. Then the next time you make a squad, the person doesn't get in, or isn't on... fast forward in time, and this person will still have medals they paid for, which nothing to show for it. Again, I don't give a rats *** if you don't care about anybody else's problems. I do care, at least a little bit, and thus I'm going out of my way to make sure that buyers know there IS a risk. Maybe its small, but its there, and they have the right to know.

It's not that I don't care about people's problems, it's that their problems are in no way relevant to you. If I were running TMs then I'd try to make sure everyone gets their money worth, on Lothranis when I was duoing TM69 with a friend we had cases where people already had some medals, when they were done we got fillers that way our customers were able to get their cape. If someone already has medals then yeah, there's a risk, but in most cases the person makes that known before the run starts.

The TM runners could simply ask who has medals already, how many they have, and then plan accordingly to bring in fillers. If fillers can't be found they could call of the run. If they can be, then.. well.. problem solved.

Here's another fact: if one person cheats doing TM runs, it throws the entire TM-selling community into doubt for new buyers. Ds and I occasionally do TM 79s when we have time, and IF others are cheating their clients, that reflects on us, even though our track record is impeccable. Thus it is also in my best interests to make sure others don't cheat their clients, whether its on purpose (outright scam) or inadvertently (leaving a client stranded with useless medals for a long time). That simple enough for you to comprehend, amigos?

In your best interest huh? What about caring about others and not wanting them to be scammed? Which is it dude, you care or it's in your best interest to nitpick every little thing that could possibly go wrong in someone else's TM runs? Said it before, nobody else nitpicked your TMs, so get off their nuts. Well.. I guess I shouldn't tell you to get off their nuts, you seem to like being a self righteous d-bag so much that I doubt you'd leave them alone.

Azzazin

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You only choose to read what you want to see, lol. Let me say it again it again in blocks so you have a chance of comprehending: "It is ALSO in my best interests...". Surely you know what 'also' means? 'In addition to, as well as, something more than before'. Like I said, empathy is surely an emotion you must struggle to understand, but I can care about the well-being of others as well as keeping my own interests in mind. The two are not mutually exclusive; in this case they are in perfect agreement.

Empathy isn't an emotion I'm a stranger to, but I don't go around empathizing with everyone and everything just because something bad might happen. I don't care what happens in another country, I don't care what happens to someone I don't know, just like most people don't. If something bad happens to a friend or family member then yeah, I'll care and I'll worry and I'll hope they make it out okay, but not some random person from the community.

"I'm watching out for others. Making sure people aren't scammed is in my best interest." Maybe it makes you feel important to try to defend people that you don't really know, but you should get off your moral high horse already, you're beginning to look like a tool up there.

Bringing a filler works, yes. The solution is non-ideal but workable; particularly for TM Lunar, having one person missing cuts profit to 2/3 of its original value, whereas filling one person in for TM79 reduces profits to only 3/4 of original value. There's also the risk that, if using an alt for a filler, it makes the TM more difficult to complete owing to the exact timing required. Still, workable I suppose.

And, one more time to get it through that dense skull of yours: TM Lunar involves sums of $ 400% greater in value than the next most costly TM. If there is any sort of correlation between temptation to steal and size of money involved, there is a GREATER risk here. If I were to offer TM Lunar, I would EXPECT people to want to be concerned about the safety of their money; its only logical. (Logic is another trait you seem to be lacking in.)

I'm sorry, how is any other TM relevant to Lunar? Yes, the amount of money involved is higher, but other TMs are completely irrelevant to it. By the way, tell me one thing I've said that's not logical? Aside from my disagreeing with you tell me just exactly what it is I've stated that seems illogical to you, because I'm pretty sure I've stated my reasoning behind pretty much everything I've said.

When it comes to TM Lunar, or any TM for that matter, I'd want to get my money's worth and not get scammed. That's what everyone wants. I'm not arguing that with you, what my problem is, is that you seem to think that just because you "empathize with the community and don't want people getting scammed or ripped off" that it makes it your business. It doesn't. Sure, maybe if a friend gets scammed and complains to you, then it's your business, but unless that happens it's really not. You aren't running the TM, you aren't paying for the TM, you're just a bystander that has no say in how they do things.


It doesn't even matter if the people doing it are paragons of moral virtue. Money and the love of it corrupts. You see it on TV every other day it seems, some rich dude was caught scamming other people for millions. How many more are still scamming but haven't been caught yet, I wonder?... Being well-known and rich does not make one immune to the temptations large sums of money offer. The gaming world is no different; if anything its much easier to get away with theft here, and there's really no punishment that can be exacted upon you for doing so aside from social pressures. And in case you haven't bothered to work it out, 120mil from 3 people for a few hours of works is a rather large sum of money!


Pretty sure we've covered this, they can take the payments one run at a time until they have all eight done, being sure to work out whatever kinks come their way. Sure, there's temptation to scam, but that doesn't mean they'll go for it, and if they do it'll be blasted all over world chat and will ruin their reputation. In a business like that once your reputation is ruined, so is your business. Oh boo-hoo it'll happen after the fact, people get scammed. It's part of life, get over it. Yeah it sucks, but if they did scam, as I said before, it'll ruin their reputation and their business.

Again, the buyer has the right to have some assurance besides the word of the TM seller that their money is in safe hands, and that they will get the promised product. To Jans & T_i_m and xCurse, it is your responsibility to make sure you do all you can to make sure you deliver your product as advertised in a timely manner. Unlike what Zanyru seems to think, I have absolutely no problem with you guys rocking TM Lunar; that you figured out how to do it efficiently with 3 people is terrific. T_i_m's snide talk I could do without, but the TM runs themselves make for a noteworthy accomplishment. Nonetheless, I feel it is good for you to know that people will be watching you, in order to keep you on the straight n' true, so to speak. This is a good thing for the sake of the community as well as myself, thus it is a logical thing to do.

What authority do you have over anyone in the game? So what if you're watching them? I can watch someone afk in Arch and say they should afk elsewhere, but it won't do anything. If you wanna do some real good why don't you go join the neighborhood watch or something, instead of griping about stuff in a game. I mean you know, since you care so much about the community of a game you must care about the community where you live. Maybe if you joined one you'd actually do some good.
Azzazin

TPG

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Alrighty, prepare to meet have your nosed rubbed in some more logic, Zan.

You stating "comparing Lunar to any other TM is irrelevant" is illogical. It is relevant because of their similarities (in both cases clients trust money to a seller before receiving the reward; you'll be hard-pressed to find any other transactions like this in the game) and because of the two big differences (1: nobody else is doing TM Lunar, which increases risk for the buyer; 2: TM Lunar costs 4x more at current prices than TM79, the next-highest TM to provide -interval and -channel capes).

No, it's not. All you're doing is saying that TM Lunar is more costly and that there's more risk involved compared to other TMs. They aren't running TM 79, they're running Lunar, which makes those other TMs irrelevant.

Lol, funny of you to bring up 'community watch'. Tell me now, Zan, why do people join the community watch? What benefit does it have to THEM? Eh? Oh, thats right, they do it to protect the COMMUNITY. You know, the one they live in, inhabit. The people they see on a daily basis, their neighbors. Kinda like, oh... the server I inhabit. The community in which I play, the people which I see on a daily basis. So, logically speaking, since you brought up 'community watch' as an example of something worth doing, by extrapolation to the game COMMUNITY, seeking to protect players from harm is reason enough to voice my concerns.

The difference is that they're actually doing some good, you're not on a watch in this game, you're just one person being totally paranoid. By the way, if you care so much about the community why are you only just now showing it? I haven't seen you make a big fuss at token scams, catshop scams, trade scams, or "hackings". However, the moment they offer TM Lunar you get your panties in a bunch. Seems a bit off to me, but whatever, according to you I seem to be incapable of rational thought so what do I know? =P

You spend so much time worrying over these people you hardly know, are you THAT obsessed? You're like an over-protective mother, but those people you try to protect aren't your children. They can make their own decisions, they can judge whether or not something seems legit or if it seems like a scam. The fact that you feel so much need to baby them and warn them about possible scams, not even scamming that's happened, but POSSIBLE scams, do you think they're stupid? If they have half a brain they can:

a) Defend against being scammed.
b) Report the scammers
c) A+B and ruin their business

Granted, sometimes people's scam operations aren't ruined until after the fact, but it would still be ruined and they'd be unable to cause anymore harm. They aren't your kids Azzazin, let them make decisions for themselves.


Furthermore, I have stated how trophy mode sellers are affected by each other's standards. A person who was scammed by one group of people selling TM79, for example, will most certainly be less likely to get a cape from anybody else, and he/she won't pass on good news to their friends. We both know that word of mouth is a very powerful tool, and it is often hard enough to find people for trophy mode runs in the first place. Thus, it is logical for me to want other TM sellers to not scam anybody. Thus, I made it my business to post here, and why I will continue to rebut your claims that its not my business. I, certainly more than you, have a right to make it my business. You don't even play on Dreamweaver anymore!

Yeah, I don't play Dreamweaver, and people like you and Ds are part of the reason I'm glad I switched servers. You say you have more right than me to make it my business? I never made their TM selling my business, I don't bug them about it, I don't try to warn people about dangers, I don't mess with them in any way. What is my business is you, posting your nonsense on the forums. Dreamweaver is your community? Well this is mine, you rarely post here so I guess I have more rights here than you? I mean, according to your logic the one that's been around the most recently has more right to certain things than the other.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself, people can make decisions for themselves. If they get scammed and don't wanna try for another run with another party then that's their choice to make. You're not making a big fuss about the community because you care, you're doing it because if they get scammed you think it ruins your chances of making money off TM Lunar later on when you have the man power to do it. Stop using "protecting the community" as a cover, in all my time on Dreamweaver I never once saw you try to protect the community, nor have I seen you do so on the forums. It's only now that you've shown a shred of compassion for them.

It is xCurse who has the right of it. Basically, if you were an amoral b.stard, the one thing that will keep you from scamming is the promise of future profits. Nonetheless, there are people who would still scam others if they think they could get away with it. I have never suggested that xCurse's group is the type to do this; only that, the greater the sum of $ involved, the greater the temptation.

Then just count that as a little bit of insurance that they won't scam.

Interestingly enough, regarding payment, the best way to ensure that the clients stay for all 8 runs is to NOT trade after each run. Doing so (a) takes more time, and (b) encourages clients to leave whenever they feel like it. It is to the benefit of both TM runners (assuming they are trustworthy) and clients to minimize the # of trades made, thus saving time, and increasing the likelihood that the runs get done fast enough so that nobody has to leave squad.


Oh no, an extra two minutes, the horrors of an extra 14 - 16 minutes in total! That's such a horrible increase in time. Admittedly I prefer trading all at once, but if people wanna do it another way that's fine. An extra few minutes here and there of trading doesn't matter so much in the long run, especially since it's not an instance you're gonna spam all day. Those two minutes aren't gonna add up like they would in Nirvana, and end up costing you a few runs if you spam it.

Try telling "getting scammed is a fact of life, get over it" to the person who gets scammed and see what sort of response you get! Yeah, that'll go over well. Did you say you had empathy?... riggght. Clients have a right to know about potential risks before handing away their money, so as to make educated decisions. Again: I make it my business because I don't want to see people scammed, and because as a fellow TM seller it makes sense to not have people view TMs in a negative light.


There you go again, using "community protection" as a cover.

I have no authority greater than the words I speak. But we all know how powerful those can be, don't we now. As far as me joining community watch (lol, speaking of irrelevant details...) my neighborhood doesn't have a community watch. And really now, we are both playing this game, and both responding to this thread. Introducing real life into a game-thread is just... incredibly lame.

Hmm... community watch is about community protection, your whole argument is that you wanna protect the community, seems pretty relevant even if it is something from real life. Aside from being in game there's no relevancy between different TMs, yet you brought that up. My bringing up a neighborhood watch is no different aside from the fact that it's something in real life that I'm comparing to the game.

/rubbing Zan's nose in hard logic
//until the next time he opens his claptrap
///which is inevitable, unfortunately

Azzazin

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Based on your logic, anything that has similarities and differences with anything else is 'irrelevant'. I've stated how how the similarities and differences of the various TMs make them relevant to each other; this statement of yours is just plain wrong.



I can sum this up pretty quickly. 'Already-happened' vs. 'potential'. Token scams/what have you have all happened already; others already watch out for these scams and report them. I have, in fact, warned people of scam shops when I come across them, or once against an FC-scammer. TM Lunar has never been done on this server, it is a new and 'potential' problem. Due to the enormous amount of $ involved, it IS a risk. You cannot say it isn't. This is what I have stated, and which you are repeatedly ignoring. And I have played this game a long time and have seen many things; it is wise to not assume any set level of intelligence on the part of other players. Even a smart dude + a little bit of drink = bad decisions = potential for being scammed.

And show me EXACTLY where I've tried to STOP people from making a decision of their own? You won't find it; in fact, I've already stated I don't have any problems at all with xCurse's group running TM Lunar. I have no problems with anybody doing TMs. I am providing information to those who might pay for (any, really) TMs, to stop and consider the risks carefully before handing over their money. The more $ you are handing over, the bigger the risk.



Fact: I only post when I feel it is required, not because I'm +1ing every random post I come across.

Fact: The more posts you have, the more likely it is that you are what people refer to as a 'forum troll'. No further explanation needed.

Fact: It is natural for me to be interested in what is happening in Dreamweaver. YOU abandoned Dreamweaver; of all people, you should care the least about what happens here.

Fact: We are different people, who will make different choices. Are you going to sit in the observer's seat and tell it is 'wrong' to supply information to the community of which I am a part? Ha. Furthermore, the Dreamweaver sub-forums is clearly designed for people who play the Dreamweaver server. What, I'm online a lot, is the entire online world my community? (according to your logic, yes... o.o;) Go back to posting in your own server's forum.



If people have knowledge of the risks, and then get scammed anyways, then I agree, that is too bad. However, it is a different story if they walk into a scam without having ever heard that they were doing something risky. I'll state, *once again* that I am providing information. The person in question does, of course, get to decide what they want to do from there.

I don't expect you to understand that I care, not does it mean anything that you haven't seen me do 'caring' things; I haven't ever seen you inside an instance in this game, but it doesn't mean you've never entered one, does it. Its safe to say I've done many things you have no knowledge of, and vice versa.

Also, if its so onerous replying to me, you can just stop anytime, lol. I'm not forcing you to keep opening your mouth. If you really don't care about what others do, you can just stop anytime.



I do that.



Time is money. Lot of things can go wrong in a TM Lunar run, it helps to save time whenever you can. Still, this is a minor detail, yes.



Community protection, yes. "Quotes" show your skepticism, but it is true nonetheless. Furthermore, if I was truly using "community protection" as a cover, why would I bother mentioning my own interests as a TM seller? Both reasons equally contribute to my interest in this forum post.



I cannot 'protect' the community beyond sharing information about potential risks. I have only the power of my words, which is why I speak. Regarding an 'in-game' community watch and a 'real-life' community watch, if you say its OK to use 'real-life' community watch as an example, based on their similarities, then logically speaking it is also OK for me to compare various types of TMs to each other.

~

Enjoy your TTs.

Azzazin