To Flesh Ream or not

Sakubatou - Sanctuary
Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
edited February 2012 in Barbarian
Since barbs are replaced as the "tank" almost everytime on bosses after level 90 by aps characters their purpose in a squad has changed. It seems silly to me that I see all these 100+ barbs still FRing every mob, and doing nothing but spamming FR on bosses and about half the barbs I run with I need to request "devour please" and often get ignored. Their FR literally does nothing since it takes about 3 hits for my sin to repull aggro and at 5 a minute. When your roll in a squad has changed it makes sense you'd change your gameplay to fit the new roll but I still see FR spammers.

When I play my barb I rarely FR. Granted I am an aps barb and do most my tanking on damage, but if I'm supporting a sin I devour instead. I usually only FR if I have an overzealous caster who attacks mobs I'm not attacking and I need to repull aggro to save them. If there is bloodpaint and apsers in a squad its easier just to devour and let the apser tank and let their bloodpaint heal. Depending on the situation.

The reason I chose Devour so often is FR can actually kill squishy sins because it doesn't usually actually pull aggro from a boss attack, it just causes the boss to reaggro and move then turn and attack the apser. This means the apser has to chase the boss. Boss reaggro's on the apser, move a bit, barb moves a bit and reams again, boss moves, apser moves... The apser is having trouble sparking because he is losing chi chasing the boss, he's not getting paint heals because he's not contantly attacking, and everything takes longer.

I like devour better because you increase the amount the dd recieves in heals, you decrease the mob/bosses attack levels and their damage output, the mob dies quicker so does less attacks, and no aggro bounce.

When I play my barb I'll often have BMs or Sins say "just devour please" so I know I'm not the only one out there asking for this. So why are some barbs still playing their characters the same way at 100+ that they did at level 50?
Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
Post edited by Sakubatou - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide
    Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide Posts: 934 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    I didn't experience a single aps character capable of stealing aggro even for a second until 99. Even a few 4aps sparked sins/archers with +7 deicides couldn't manage it.

    But eventually it did happen at 99. I restatted to claws shortly after 99, but while i was still vit build, my rotation turned into Devour > Onslaught > Mighty Swing > Slam > Devour >repeat.

    Maybe I could still hold aggro from some of these guys, maybe not. Didn't seem relevant anymore though, because as long as they could handle the damage, not maximizing Devour and onslaughts crit buff was just slowing down a sure kill anyways.

    I use flesh ream if i need to snatch a mobs attention that is going after someone it CAN squish.

    Now, its axes to pen. armor, get onslaughts crit buff, and claws the rest. May the person dealing the most damage become tank. You know, for the 10 seconds that the boss is alive >>
  • Stressedout - Dreamweaver
    Stressedout - Dreamweaver Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Kinda funny I was just laughing about this yesterday before ever reading your thread.

    At 100 I hardly ever reach for FR anymore. Running an SoT without a healer is what got me to thinking about it again. If I see a caster or sin with aggro getting in trouble I'll hit FR to buy them a few seconds to recompose (along with roar or AM as needed), but primarily I just hit alacrity, devour, & do as much dps as possible from there:P

    Amazing how the role of barbs has changed. We're still wanted/welcome in groups, just not for the same reason anymore

    P.S.> Afterthought being it's not just the sins you frustrate & annoy when playing aggro pong. It drives clerics & mystics absolutely nuts trying to figure out who to heal as well = )
    frankieraye

    Oh the snowmen are coming, don't you worry..
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    At the moment, I'm experimenting with a pure str build. Barb is 91. I'm an APS axes build, using Zerk axes (TT90 gold), and really, I hold aggro against 1-98 sins/BM's/everything else with an opening FR then Alacrity/surf impact. I will devour then triple spark. If a 99 sin has 3.33 or so APS, I might have to FR a little to hold aggro. Comes down to if I have enough Chi.

    I like this build so far, if I end up being a sole DD, say just myself and a cleric, I can kill bosses in a reasonable amount of time, and using Zerk axes I do enough damage that bloodpaint covers Zerk's cost, even with 16k HP.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide
    Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide Posts: 934 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Amazing how the role of barbs has changed. We're still wanted/welcome in groups, just not for the same reason anymore

    I don't think our role has changed at all. Tanks are meant to protect people from dying, not just hold aggro. We adjust to whatever is necessary to prevent people from dying.

    Sure, most aps chars. can hold aggro and survive. That's not tanking. Our whole existence we play with the mentality of "don't let anyone get squished".

    Every now and then something DOES happen that could be or is disastrous. A sin who forgets to BP himself for example...(Really, this happens far too often) Or a cash shopped nub with his r9+12 weapon who has no clue about the fights and gets himself or others killed. These DD's with high aps don't have the same mentality we do. They go pew pew as fast as they can. We monitor everything out of habit. And in the event its needed, we've slammed our axes back on and are in tiger controlling the situation before the silly fish even knew there was a situation.

    Yeh I agree we are wanted for different reasons now than before. But our role remains the same. Kill the boss, protect idiots and squishies when need be.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    I don't think our role has changed at all. Tanks are meant to protect people from dying, not just hold aggro. We adjust to whatever is necessary to prevent people from dying.

    Sure, most aps chars. can hold aggro and survive. That's not tanking. Our whole existence we play with the mentality of "don't let anyone get squished".

    Every now and then something DOES happen that could be or is disastrous. A sin who forgets to BP himself for example...(Really, this happens far too often) Or a cash shopped nub with his r9+12 weapon who has no clue about the fights and gets himself or others killed. These DD's with high aps don't have the same mentality we do. They go pew pew as fast as they can. We monitor everything out of habit. And in the event its needed, we've slammed our axes back on and are in tiger controlling the situation before the silly fish even knew there was a situation.

    Yeh I agree we are wanted for different reasons now than before. But our role remains the same. Kill the boss, protect idiots and squishies when need be.

    This was a great summation of our job. I personally am a player with the "support" mentality. I play and learn all the classes to know how they can help, and where they need extra support. As a cleric, that means healing/debuffing rather than attacking usually (sometimes its easier just to kill the mob going after the squishy, though). As a DD, that means DDing your little heart out while monitoring aggro so that things go quick and bosses have less time to throw something your way. It also means not getting yourself or the cleric in trouble. As the tank, its... exactly as you described it.

    Except I would argue that what DDs do is tanking. Well, what good DDs do. They should know to self sacrifice themselves to save the cleric because they can be rezzed, so they are constantly watching the cleric and others to either build off another DD (ie Heaven's flame or zhenning) or to support someone (casters getting aggro and needs mobs stunned).

    I could steal aggro off 100+ sage barbs at level 70 on my sin and they couldn't get it back if I didn't want them to. There were situations where the barb was getting all the heals and I was damage modifying to let them tank and it was killing me because of the lack of paint heals and I was in a bad balance between needing to attack more to get more paint heals but needing to attack less to avoid aggro. Those are the points where the sin says "**** it, I'll tank, heal me". As a barb the best thing I could do to help my squad survive was support the sin tanking. That's why I went more of a DD build. Anything over about 16k hp in this game is just for comfort and to make things easier, so I moved more towards DD for better aggro ability or to switch to a DD roll so the boss dies quicker while something else tanks.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Support mentality wins forever in my book. You forgot stunlock on the list of DD jobs (sins and archers dont do this enough on bh) to prevent damage from ever occurring so the cleric has to heal less (mobs ofc) and to keep squishies alive as well as to keep mobs stationary for melees.

    Eventhough I main an archer, I have always kept aggro off the cleric and generally take a death if it keeps the squad up. DD based bms/sins tend to have poor aoe management though (not really their fault, class design) so sometimes that makes things tough.

    Because of that though I basically use Slam on my barb how I do Wingspan on my archer, to aggro everything and tank it to death with aoes.

    On topic, if theres a sin in squad and I can't hold aggro I will also switch to a devour/frighten mode and let them have at it.
    Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451

    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • Lolgasmic - Raging Tide
    Lolgasmic - Raging Tide Posts: 1,315 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Blah blah blah blah yes i read it, but wall of text is not c00l
    When I play my barb I'll often have BMs or Sins say "just devour please" so I know I'm not the only one out there asking for this. So why are some barbs still playing their characters the same way at 100+ that they did at level 50?

    In FC on the bosses I'll use devour if the sin is 93 and up.
    In bh79 I rather use FR unless I am actually having trouble keeping aggro.
    In bh89 it would make more sense to use devour.


    I'm a barb, and I've come to realize me role as tank is diminishing.
    /scratch that, after reading other posters.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Barbarian 103 - 101 - 101
    Started playing on March 2010
  • Hazarduz - Heavens Tear
    Hazarduz - Heavens Tear Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Ive always used devour (ever since I got it at lvl10), even pre89 and without APS DDs. It is after all by far the best pdef debuff out there (-50% , 100% reliable and permanently spammable). Yeah its a high chi cost and yes chi management becomes a bit of a priority, but the rewards are worth it.

    One thing I will say is that everyone roles in a party should be clearly outlined. I.e. people should speak up and say what it is they want to do/ be done.

    I say this because Ive been in partys where the APS BM or sin tanks everything (and I have no problem to this, less repairs for me!) and also in partys where there is a similar setup and I assume sin or BM will tank, to only be told that I was a fail barb and couldnt keep aggro, all when I wasnt even trying to.

    So all Ill say is let me know if u wanna tank, or you want me to try and tank! b:thanks

    P.S.: If you do want the barb to tank, do try and keep your uber broken APS dmg under control, coz its a pain for everyone, barbs included.
    Old school demon tank -> LESS PEW PEW, NO Q _Q

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ruli - Heavens Tear
    Ruli - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    i see it this way from a BM's perspective if i got a barb in party they gonner tank, i can an will let em. I got other stuff i CAN an WILL do to help the barb out. That dont mean im a fail BM all i have to do is spark an its my aggro so that isnt the issue either.

    I often come too blows on the barb with BM's thinking they tanks. Big problem is while they can do a resonable job i know that barb was made to take the blows better than a BM. Sadly the game dynamics have changed so drasticly sinse i made Ruli almost 3 years ago. I still think old school. Actually as a barb i prefere to just tank for magic classes to be honest they dont come with a big bad attitude to an instance or boss fight like most aps types do. Also understand how hard as a BM it can be to not pull aggro i just learned to control it better cos i dont see it as fail.

    Maybe if people was abit more willing to let barbs do the job an they CAN people would see more barbs out an about 100+ Cos to be honest aps classes an the bs an hypocricy that goes with it just makes we not wanna play him. However i still love playing my barb an always will.

    So please spare me of the flesh ream spam hell its not fun burning 3 sparks to get aggro back off the stupid fish that totally cant handle the job in the 1st place. You sparking before i had aggro (remember i have to have it 1st to loose it) aint gonner help your cause.

    No body is 5 aps when they lying in a bloody pool of pixels qqing for a res.
  • Hazarduz - Heavens Tear
    Hazarduz - Heavens Tear Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Sadly the game dynamics have changed so drasticly sinse i made Ruli almost 3 years ago.
    Yep, agree 100%. Bloodpaint kinda broke it, making the DDs into tanks (should really be a solo buff). I still remember the good ole days when fist BMs used to find a hard time making it into squads coz they was considered too squishy! A few then had to restat then into axe wielders.

    Actually as a barb i prefere to just tank for magic classes to be honest they dont come with a big bad attitude to an instance or boss fight like most aps types do.

    LOL agree 100%, though I suppose we'd see the attitude here too if Bloodpaint worked for em the same way.
    Old school demon tank -> LESS PEW PEW, NO Q _Q

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Yep, agree 100%. Bloodpaint kinda broke it, making the DDs into tanks (should really be a solo buff). I still remember the good ole days when fist BMs used to find a hard time making it into squads coz they was considered too squishy! A few then had to restat then into axe wielders.

    LOL agree 100%, though I suppose we'd see the attitude here too if Bloodpaint worked for em the same way.

    I came over to this game from another RPG where "increased attack rate" was the thing for pk (especially for archers). It wasn't exponential damage growth and as unbalanced as it is in this game but it made me check out the dynamics of aps 2.5 years ago and pick claws as my BMs starting weapon. Sat with a level 10 BM for about a week doing all the math making sure its what I wanted to do. Then I kept hearing "fists sucks, fists suck". When I finally found another fist BM in his 40-50s and asked if it was working he said he liked it but only went that way because he liked martial arts...

    As I leveled the fist BM with a 3/2 build I started hearing how squishy I was going to be (while tanking every BH) until the view changed in the BM forums to "fist BMs are the BM tank build". I ahd to ask about that "aren't they the squishiest build?" Yes, but they hold aggro the best, BMs have marrows and shadowless kick. Get the barb to use Alacrity.

    I suppose the whole attitude is its one of the clearest ways to see a persons gear investments. If the barbs hp stays at 100% while tanking a boss you can't tell if they have 10k or 40k hp. But, if a boss dies in 8 seconds vs takes 5 minutes you know a bit about your DD's gear. I remember a friend hit 5.0 before I did and became smug and only wanted to run with 4.0+ (***). Then I hit 5.0 and had that same feeling of anyone less than 4.0 can be my amp **** or is just slowing me down and they should invest in their gear (yah, I'm an ***). Same feelings about BMs who don't get demon HF before 5 aps.

    This has become a bit more a rant about BMs, but my point was the view of aps characters. They thank other aps character who can tank over them when they can't really tank because then they can still DD and not have to worry about taking aggro because of a failtank and dieing because they did what they do best.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    I came over to this game from another RPG where "increased attack rate" was the thing for pk (especially for archers). It wasn't exponential damage growth and as unbalanced as it is in this game but it made me check out the dynamics of aps 2.5 years ago and pick claws as my BMs starting weapon. Sat with a level 10 BM for about a week doing all the math making sure its what I wanted to do. Then I kept hearing "fists sucks, fists suck". When I finally found another fist BM in his 40-50s and asked if it was working he said he liked it but only went that way because he liked martial arts...

    As I leveled the fist BM with a 3/2 build I started hearing how squishy I was going to be (while tanking every BH) until the view changed in the BM forums to "fist BMs are the BM tank build". I ahd to ask about that "aren't they the squishiest build?" Yes, but they hold aggro the best, BMs have marrows and shadowless kick. Get the barb to use Alacrity.

    I suppose the whole attitude is its one of the clearest ways to see a persons gear investments. If the barbs hp stays at 100% while tanking a boss you can't tell if they have 10k or 40k hp. But, if a boss dies in 8 seconds vs takes 5 minutes you know a bit about your DD's gear. I remember a friend hit 5.0 before I did and became smug and only wanted to run with 4.0+ (***). Then I hit 5.0 and had that same feeling of anyone less than 4.0 can be my amp **** or is just slowing me down and they should invest in their gear (yah, I'm an ***). Same feelings about BMs who don't get demon HF before 5 aps.

    This has become a bit more a rant about BMs, but my point was the view of aps characters. They thank other aps character who can tank over them when they can't really tank because then they can still DD and not have to worry about taking aggro because of a failtank and dieing because they did what they do best.

    Huh...

    I became smug while your BM was still in Diapers. My Barb had 20k hp at level 90 before I restatted to a pure str build. And TBH, I can actually hold aggro off 4.0/5.0 BM's, assuming they don't have anything past, say, +5 deicides. Sins are another matter.

    But I really don't care who i run with, unless they're smug to me. "Oh, you're a BM, you should HF." Sorry, you are sparking to 2.5 aps with +3 Hooks, I am sparking to 3.33 with +10 Deicides. I will HF if I ****ing feel like it. Now, you need to subsea for me.

    Hmm, my Sin has 10k HP, my BM had 10k HP since level 80, and my Archer should have around 10k at 100 as well...

    But I digress. When I'm on my Sin, unless whatever it is can oneshot me, I WILL survive it (harpy wraith oneshots me), tanking or not. On my BM, there are some pulls that confound me in FCC on occasion, but I built this character to tank.

    And my Barb, I built to tank.

    Hell, my Archer tanked BH39, BH51, and BH59... IDC if I die every now and then, and repair costs are absolute ****, but it's so much fun to tank. It's absolute pain to nerf damage to not pull aggro. I'd rather just go all out, pull aggro, hold aggro, keep it, and pull it off in the end.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Crazy__erik - Heavens Tear
    Crazy__erik - Heavens Tear Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Sure, most aps chars. can hold aggro and survive. That's not tanking. Our whole existence we play with the mentality of "don't let anyone get squished".

    THAT right there is why I use FR still and will continue to use it. In a nutshell, with all the power-leveled buffoons in the game, I simply don't trust anyone else to "tank" especially a PL'd sin who has no means to control the situation if it goes poorly.
    Like most barbs here if I see you are capable of holding aggro then I will watch carefully and let you be the "hero". Helping you out with timely cancels and stuns as I can. BUT I have to see it...my job specifically since the beginning of the game is to protect the entire party ( a concept non-Barb tanks have a hard time grasping) If you say, "I'll tank", and then the wizzie behind you grabs aggro...how are you really controlling the situation? With a push of a button, I can control it.
    Tanking is indeed a "Glory" position and everyone wants the kudos for being lead...but same as you want the barbs to back off, the Barbs are thinking...when is this sin/bm/veno/etc gonna just let me do my job?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Huh...

    I became smug while your BM was still in Diapers. My Barb had 20k hp at level 90 before I restatted to a pure str build.

    Umm, wasn't that a week and a half ago, lol? Your post
    And TBH, I can actually hold aggro off 4.0/5.0 BM's, assuming they don't have anything past, say, +5 deicides. Sins are another matter.


    But I really don't care who i run with, unless they're smug to me. "Oh, you're a BM, you should HF." Sorry, you are sparking to 2.5 aps with +3 Hooks, I am sparking to 3.33 with +10 Deicides. I will HF if I ****ing feel like it. Now, you need to subsea for me.

    The issue with HF is can you out DD 5 people in your squad with triple spark, not just one. And again, part of good HFing is to help glue aggro to a tank. And honestly, in the example of 2.5 H&T sin vs 3.33 +10 deicide sin your damage isn't insanely higher because they probably have 100 more dex than you have str, 10% more crit, better accuracy, H&Ts have better base dmg... guessing its about a 30% difference and that's mostly from attack speed.

    Back on subject:
    People are starting to bring up "what is a good tank" and the barb forums have had good discussion on them in the past. I know squads where I was damage tanking and the highest DD by far but had trouble with aggro because the amps didn't line up with my sparks and I had shaky aggro because other DDs were getting the veno amp, or BMs HF, or the EPs. So part of it is your squad, but if you have the option of tanking using aggro skills, thats a plus. However, I know squads where I'm not the tank and trying to hold back dmg but there are such effective amps I literally need to stop attacking during HFs. Damage can be a great way to tank. It depends on how smart your squad is, coordinated, and whether there is a clear highest DD. Using Sarra's example, the 2.5 aps sin could out DD her if he'd gotten the HF, even though she clearly had the highest DD, so in that squad planning a tank would involve avoiding or amping one person.

    As a cleric, I honestly prefer tanks on damage because I can watch triple sparks and amps and have a reasonable guess on dd output. Things go quicker and if I debuff the boss I'm helping my tank, not the DDs, with aggro.

    The second part is can they survive. I think barbs obviously excel at this with one exception. I run into 20k+ barbs who can't tank BH Metal. I started doing it at 12k hp on my aps barb and now have 18k hp and might be able to solo it. The reason? Paint. I calculated my average dps out and found out that I was getting about 2.5 full IH stacks in additional heals to bb just from paint heals. It's as if I have a bb and 12.5 IHs stacked on me at all times as long as I'm sparked. Considering that sins can out DD my barb I know they're getting even more paint heals. I think Sin survivability approaches a god mode as their hp and defenses grow (in PvE) because their dmg taken goes down and down, and their heals go up and up. No other class has growth like that.

    So to me, "tanking" is who can hold the aggro best and who can survive the best. Regardless of whether the class was designed for it, or is considered squishy. The amount of survivability needed is somewhat capped in this game and any class can achieve the defenses/hp required to tank any boss. Its the damage and aggro competition among each other that seems uncapped. Sometimes as a barb its easier just to step aside and help others be better tanks.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Umm, wasn't that a week and a half ago, lol? Your post

    Hm, no, point was, I got smug in 2009. Second point was, I'm kind of growing out of it now.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    it made me check out the dynamics of aps 2.5 years ago and pick claws as my BMs starting weapon. Sat with a level 10 BM for about a week doing all the math making sure its what I wanted to do.

    b:laugh Honestly, what math ?

    I know 20+ ppl, and have heard about 1000+ others, that all claim to be (among) the first to realise how great fists are, how important aps is and all that. Except that any math or reasoning you could have done 2.5 years back is totally irrelevant to todays state of game. b:chuckle
    When I finally found another fist BM in his 40-50s and asked if it was working he said he liked it but only went that way because he liked martial arts...

    This is the kind of reason that should make someone pick a class or weapon, ijs.

    On topic : wether it's good, usefull, useless or bad to fleshream depends on the squad and the boss. On snakefist it's often good to fleshream even it it's just to have the one with aggro take a hit less every now and then, in most cases it's useless but won't really hurt other then using some unnecessary chi, in some cases it's bad cause it makes the boss debuff/aoe more.

    You can keep up devour (at least for the defence debuff, and nobody gives a damn about that -4 att lvl lol) while spamming fleshream, this is what I always did in the old days. So I don't see why you talk like you have to make a choice between devour and fleshream.
  • Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide
    Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide Posts: 934 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    You can keep up devour (at least for the defence debuff, and nobody gives a damn about that -4 att lvl lol) while spamming fleshream, this is what I always did in the old days. So I don't see why you talk like you have to make a choice between devour and fleshream.

    So I have to ask, whats a 102 doing in a squad with a level 44 Barbarian? Or are you just ignorant?

    Devour at level 10 reduces Attack level by 10. Sage/Demon reduces it by 15. If your going to be a smartass and post on the barb forums, at least obtain some knowledge of the class first.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    b:laugh Honestly, what math ?

    I know 20+ ppl, and have heard about 1000+ others, that all claim to be (among) the first to realise how great fists are, how important aps is and all that. Except that any math or reasoning you could have done 2.5 years back is totally irrelevant to todays state of game. b:chuckle



    This is the kind of reason that should make someone pick a class or weapon, ijs.

    On topic : wether it's good, usefull, useless or bad to fleshream depends on the squad and the boss. On snakefist it's often good to fleshream even it it's just to have the one with aggro take a hit less every now and then, in most cases it's useless but won't really hurt other then using some unnecessary chi, in some cases it's bad cause it makes the boss debuff/aoe more.

    You can keep up devour (at least for the defence debuff, and nobody gives a damn about that -4 att lvl lol) while spamming fleshream, this is what I always did in the old days. So I don't see why you talk like you have to make a choice between devour and fleshream.

    -10 attack levels at level 10, -15 at level 11 Devour. You must have seen the 4 when you looked it up because it lasts 4 seconds.

    I wasn't the first to realize aps and I know that. I was ahead of the curve and I figured it out largely on my own, which is why I have a bit of bragging rights. I know China was realizing it way before us, and I know their were threads about it in forums that got trolled and laughed at. I looked at triple spark giving a 25% increase with 1.43 base attack. Then realized I could get up to 2.86 aps or something with triple spark (didn't know some of the gear in the game and some of it didn't exist). Calced that against a pure axe build with TT90s and thought I was onto something. Had an axe/fist BM guide I put up about 20 months ago that took me a few months to write before I finally posted it.

    As for reaming, I agree it still has its uses and time and place and can be spammed in conjunction with devour, but personally I'd rather save the chi for a Roar (reset aggro) then spam FR, possibly invoking if needed rather than just FR, FR,Devour, FR... because you won't be getting the chi back with bestial rage. Had a barb kill a sin friend with 12k hp by causing snakefist to run behind the lattice on his platform by constant reaggroing. My friend tried to tele and it jumped in place. So he tried to run around but was kind of stuck in the doorway and still had aggro, so died. Had to stop attacking to let the barb get aggro while my friend ran back.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    As for reaming, I agree it still has its uses and time and place and can be spammed in conjunction with devour, but personally I'd rather save the chi for a Roar (reset aggro) then spam FR, possibly invoking if needed rather than just FR, FR,Devour, FR... because you won't be getting the chi back with bestial rage. Had a barb kill a sin friend with 12k hp by causing snakefist to run behind the lattice on his platform by constant reaggroing. My friend tried to tele and it jumped in place. So he tried to run around but was kind of stuck in the doorway and still had aggro, so died. Had to stop attacking to let the barb get aggro while my friend ran back.

    Unfortunately way to many players maxed out Stupidity Mastery, but you can't blame that on fleshream. It's just commonsense that every melee should stand at about the same place if there is any chance for aggro to swap...

    Personally, I really don't find the chi an issue. I also don't like roar much, cause it's way to long. Even without lag, the time to hit the skill and to channel/cast is way to long. In your case, if you have to swap weaps and shift to tiger before, it would be even longer. I use it more for the -mag attack then for the aggro reset now lol.

    Anyways, I wouldn't expect an aps barb to spam fleshream. I find the comments of some ingame dumb that they don't want a barb to fleshream. I think it's more to boost their ego "you can't hold aggro from me, you fail class". Besides the aggro effect, it's also a 100% accurate damage skill (which tigerform doesn't have tons). As long as it isn't on a boss that would go crazy on debuffs/aoes, who cares if the barb uses fr, normal hits or surf impact ?
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Unfortunately way to many players maxed out Stupidity Mastery, but you can't blame that on fleshream. It's just commonsense that every melee should stand at about the same place if there is any chance for aggro to swap...

    Personally, I really don't find the chi an issue. I also don't like roar much, cause it's way to long. Even without lag, the time to hit the skill and to channel/cast is way to long. In your case, if you have to swap weaps and shift to tiger before, it would be even longer. I use it more for the -mag attack then for the aggro reset now lol.

    Anyways, I wouldn't expect an aps barb to spam fleshream. I find the comments of some ingame dumb that they don't want a barb to fleshream. I think it's more to boost their ego "you can't hold aggro from me, you fail class". Besides the aggro effect, it's also a 100% accurate damage skill (which tigerform doesn't have tons). As long as it isn't on a boss that would go crazy on debuffs/aoes, who cares if the barb uses fr, normal hits or surf impact ?

    Back in the old days you were supposed to fan out so the cleric could watch for aggro change and target you if it happened. Yah you were all supposed to stand the same distance but bosses still move kind of odd. And I like roar because after a few seconds FR doesn't even cause the boss to turn for a second, but a roar reset aggro so a FR will have some effect. Other option is AM.

    Chi is kind of an issue when you are not getting hit during bestial rage because you are not tanking.

    And FR as a 100% accuracy skill doesn't matter because after devour/PA everything glitches to 100% accuracy.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Back in the old days you were supposed to fan out so the cleric could watch for aggro change and target you if it happened.

    lol wut? There is something like squad list, ijs. Tbh, I heal on squadlist only most of the time.
    Chi is kind of an issue when you are not getting hit during bestial rage because you are not tanking.

    If you say so, I never noticed.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    lol wut? There is something like squad list, ijs. Tbh, I heal on squadlist only most of the time.



    If you say so, I never noticed.

    Eh, its kind of lazy to do it that way. As a cleric I'll sometimes use shift 1-6 but since I'm normally swapping between a player or two and debuffing the boss my pointer is right there. Squads still do fan out on bosses that random aggro because if the boss turns at you then you can spark/AD/antistun/pot... and the cleric can target and start healing you based on how the boss turned before it even attacks. Squad lists tend to have a second or two delay in displaying hp changes. The other reason squads fan is for player clickers like me. If people are occupying the same space and I can't target them as easy they don't get healed as quick.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    @ Saku : these days most just go for a mindless "CHARRRGGGGEEEEEE!". I doubt some of them even pay attention to where they stand lol. This can best be seen if you ever killed Cenminator or a boss like that. Personally, and I heard the same from other clerics, I freaking hate it when ppl "fan" out. You end up being a lot more limited in your standing spots. But thx for explaining. Now I finally know why ppl say "BB is needed for wyvern" b:laugh
  • DUBZZ - Archosaur
    DUBZZ - Archosaur Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    I just got out of a tt2-3, and the squad was a 3.33 aps sin with +8 r8 daggers, 2 5 aps demon bm's, 1 archer, and a cleric. I had aggro on all the bosses the majority of the time and I used the combo i posted before(flesh realm+devour+alcatracity of the beast or w/e). Sure Saku some of the stuff u said in reply to my post was true, but if ur going to post that u had aggro on ur sin at lv 70 in FC over 100+ barbs and u would hold aggro if u wanted to, well then the barb's were fail's, cuz thats not gonna happen with me. If a toon joins my squad and I know I i cant hold aggro over him/her, then im gonna devour and im gonna spam it over and over just like in nirvy runs. So I say yes flesh realm when u know u can perma tank in the squad, and devour when u cant. Although im still gonna use my combo cuz it works and I still want u to roll a toon on Archo server and prove me wrong-Saku.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    I just got out of a tt2-3, and the squad was a 3.33 aps sin with +8 r8 daggers, 2 5 aps demon bm's, 1 archer, and a cleric. I had aggro on all the bosses the majority of the time and I used the combo i posted before(flesh realm+devour+alcatracity of the beast or w/e). Sure Saku some of the stuff u said in reply to my post was true, but if ur going to post that u had aggro on ur sin at lv 70 in FC over 100+ barbs and u would hold aggro if u wanted to, well then the barb's were fail's, cuz thats not gonna happen with me. If a toon joins my squad and I know I i cant hold aggro over him/her, then im gonna devour and im gonna spam it over and over just like in nirvy runs. So I say yes flesh realm when u know u can perma tank in the squad, and devour when u cant. Although im still gonna use my combo cuz it works and I still want u to roll a toon on Archo server and prove me wrong-Saku.

    Kind of wish we could quantify Devour and FR aggro to compare it to DD and see when it would help and when not.

    I remember disagreeing with you in a thread on tanking techniques about whether mixing in Devour helped or not. I personally say no. It does add aggro, but not in the same way as FR and doesn't seem like it'd outweigh giving your DDs a 30% damage boost (60% with HF, 78% with HF and amp, 94% with HF and amp and EP...) would cause you to lose the battle of aggro skill vs. damage aggro.

    I suggested if you are battling for aggro, hold back on devour and save the chi for FR. Its almost spammable without needing another skill during its 3 seconds cooldown. Use roar after HFs expire to reset aggro then back to FR spam on the unamped boss.

    Obviously I'm not going to start all over farming on your server to make a char to have an aggro war with you. I don't have the free time for a pissing contest. However, I know this: I started FCCing at 78 on my second sin and what'd changed from when I FCC'd on my first sin was barbs now saw a sin and literally said "sweet! a sin in squad so I don't have to tank." However on my barb the sins insisted I tanked ofc, lol. I held aggro just fine up until 95+ when (surprisingly) I found an aps archer I couldn't keep aggro off of regularly. Starting around 95 I started asking "want me to devour and support you tanking so you get all the cleric heals or want me to try and hold aggro." For the most part I could except the rare Hitman's +10 that were rough to hold aggro from. If I felt I was solid, I'd devour and see if it weakened my aggro too much.

    Do what works for you is all I can say.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Hazarduz - Heavens Tear
    Hazarduz - Heavens Tear Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Umm aren't all TT bosses of " ? " level? fleshream seems to work better at keeping aggro on ? bosses (I assume its due to the player dmg reduction).

    Holding aggro on ? bosses isnt as big a problem as holding it on some of the non-? ones.

    Btw Fleshream sota adds a short lived aggro spike. Devour adds aggro only if you've already got the boss hitting you. Though I gotta agree that in most cases devour will aid the DD's damage more than your aggro keeping. I'd rathr save the chi and ream twice more instead if I were so intent on keeping the aggro.

    Mostly though I just let the DDs take aggro and see if they can take it. If they allright I dont bother with ream just devour and alclarity. If they can't, I'll let em die.. b:laugh
    Seems to get their attention! b:laugh
    Old school demon tank -> LESS PEW PEW, NO Q _Q

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Aside from all the walls of text...some of which I agree with, some of which I don't; I still use FR from time to time because...It's a pretty decent DoT attack, and it's habit. Rarely will I ever steal aggro for more than .25 seconds in just about any well geared squad.

    Heck my archer pulls aggro away from APSers better than my barb does. But I digress. As a barb my job is to keep the squad alive. So I keep my alpha male charged, and my chi bar full. If something goes haywire, I'm ready to do whatever it takes to grab the boss...and hold him.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • Light_Tiger - Raging Tide
    Light_Tiger - Raging Tide Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    im not 100% sure on this sence im not a 100+ barb but have you tried to use devour then 3 flesh ream rince and repeat it works wonders on holding agro even 2 a 5 aps its matter of hit power on the flesh ream and devour makes it stronger flesh ream stacks 3 times where devour does it once for a short time but devour is also a agro skill if a 100+ barb can tes this out and see how it works plz let me know if you see any change
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    im not 100% sure on this sence im not a 100+ barb but have you tried to use devour then 3 flesh ream rince and repeat it works wonders on holding agro even 2 a 5 aps its matter of hit power on the flesh ream and devour makes it stronger flesh ream stacks 3 times where devour does it once for a short time but devour is also a agro skill if a 100+ barb can tes this out and see how it works plz let me know if you see any change

    That's what Dubzz and I are arguing about in posts 26 & 27. We both have tried it and he likes it, I find FR spam to work better because Devour helps the DDs out alot more than it help you out.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Did trials on my Barb. I was squadded with a Sin, Cleric, and Seeker.

    To refresh, I'm a 92 pure Str build Demon Barb with TT90G Zerk axes. They are refined to +4.

    We SOMEHOW managed to keep Cold Mist alive (trial 4) with like... 2 HP left (or whatever), and got the final boss to spawn.

    The squad I was in managed to do a larger chunk of damage to the boss than the rest of our entire faction, and we got the drops. o.O This in spite of there being a 3 sin Squad and a lot of +10 or +12 5.0's in faction.

    Oh, and I kept aggro through the entire thing, when I wasn't stunned/sleeped. Demon FR and level 10 Devour were pretty nice, but having Zerk proc hitting on FR really adds to Aggro, at least in my experience.

    I think having the base buff helps a lot, but by the end, mine had expired and I was going off of my own sheer will.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level