Dark Death thorn,R9 ,Sage questions :P

bluesinxx · January 2012

Hello there I was afk from the game a while and this is my current gear

http://pwcalc.com/176f7d57374a9516

What should I do now? x.x , I love pvp\pve and I was wondering in reforge daggers try something like GOF + Double 05, Or 20 atk lvl 0.5 0.5, Sacrifical assault 0.5,0.5,

Idk, double 0.5 for farm, and buy r9 for pvp, bcs 2.8\3.3(r9), And 3.3\4.0 for pve is sux(Daimon).

And yes , I want to became sage I loved the skills but Loss dps looks so sad

. Or Im wrong? I can get r9 and for farm 3.3 will be nice?

Anyway,Before change(yes I have 100 culti done) I need sage BP,Dagger devotion ,subsea, and what?

Sry for gramatical errors and plx suggestions from daggers\culti, tyb:pleased

Olbaze - Sanctuary · January 2012

bluesinxx wrote: »

Hello there I was afk from the game a while and this is my current gear

http://pwcalc.com/176f7d57374a9516

What should I do now? x.x , I love pvp\pve and I was wondering in reforge daggers try something like GOF + Double 05, Or 20 atk lvl 0.5 0.5, Sacrifical assault 0.5,0.5,

Idk, double 0.5 for farm, and buy r9 for pvp, bcs 2.8\3.3(r9), And 3.3\4.0 for pve is sux(Daimon).

And yes , I want to became sage I loved the skills but Loss dps looks so sad . Or Im wrong? I can get r9 and for farm 3.3 will be nice?

Anyway,Before change(yes I have 100 culti done) I need sage BP,Dagger devotion ,subsea, and what?

Sry for gramatical errors and plx suggestions from daggers\culti, tyb:pleased

Firstly: You should never, ever, go for G15 Nirvana with the intention of getting 2x -0.05 interval. Simply because the odds for that are 1:400. Add in GoF and you're looking at 1:16,000. The expected costs of either of these far outweight that of Rank 9.

Secondly: The DPS loss is kinda irrelevant for a few reasons. For one, there's got to be a point after which the additional DPS is just that: additional. Shaving off some seconds from killing a boss isn't really going to be meaningful.

Thirdly: 3.33 as a Sage is sufficient for most things, especially since you can use Windshield to get up to 4.0 if necessary. At 3.33 as a Sage, you'll be able to permaspark and use Power Dash as often as the cooldown allows.

Fourthly: The important Sage skills are: Bloodpaint, Dagger Devotion, Power Dash, Subsea Strike, Wolf Emblem, Focused Mind, Tidal Protection, Inner Harmony.

Finally: I personally know a 2.86 R9 Sage sin who can solo almost anything in the game short of a few WBs. And the only difference between his and your gear is that his refines are +10 minimum and he's sharded full DoT.

And just for giggles: A 4.0 base Sage using Windshield for 5.0 is practically identical to a Demon, except they have better survivability and more consistent damage.

Traz - Dreamweaver · January 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Firstly: You should never, ever, go for G15 Nirvana with the intention of getting 2x -0.05 interval. Simply because the odds for that are 1:400. Add in GoF and you're looking at 1:16,000. The expected costs of either of these far outweight that of Rank 9.

Secondly: The DPS loss is kinda irrelevant for a few reasons. For one, there's got to be a point after which the additional DPS is just that: additional. Shaving off some seconds from killing a boss isn't really going to be meaningful.

Thirdly: 3.33 as a Sage is sufficient for most things, especially since you can use Windshield to get up to 4.0 if necessary. At 3.33 as a Sage, you'll be able to permaspark and use Power Dash as often as the cooldown allows.

Fourthly: The important Sage skills are: Bloodpaint, Dagger Devotion, Power Dash, Subsea Strike, Wolf Emblem, Focused Mind, Tidal Protection, Inner Harmony.

Finally: I personally know a 2.86 R9 Sage sin who can solo almost anything in the game short of a few WBs. And the only difference between his and your gear is that his refines are +10 minimum and he's sharded full DoT.

And just for giggles: A 4.0 base Sage using Windshield for 5.0 is practically identical to a Demon, except they have better survivability and more consistent damage.

Lost me o.o

Massad - Harshlands · January 2012

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lost me o.o

windshield is a genie skill that raises attack speed by 8% I think for 8 seconds.... and is reusable almost immediately giving sage sins 5 aps

The second part is because sage sins are slightly tougher than there demon counterparts.

At least I think thats what he meantb:surrender

Traz - Dreamweaver · January 2012

Massad - Harshlands wrote: »

windshield is a genie skill that raises attack speed by 8% I think for 8 seconds.... and is reusable almost immediately giving sage sins 5 aps

The second part is because sage sins are slightly tougher than there demon counterparts.

At least I think thats what he meantb:surrender

I know what it does...... that's why I even questioned his logic.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · January 2012

I stopped reading after the rolls he was expecting to get.

And @Traz I assumed you red texted those red texts because WS negated sage spark's damage reduction. Even if it's a small damage reduction, WS will still make a 5.0 sage sin have more survivability than a 5.0 demon sin because they'll still take less damage. Sure you can argue that demon sins can do the same thing, but why would they shorten the time on their spark with WS?

Also, sage sins have higher base dagger damage with SDD, which adds to the more consistent damage of sage sins. They also have sage bp, so survivability is better as a sage sin.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · January 2012

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lost me o.o

Simple. If you're 4 aps base, Wind Shield gets you to 5 aps. The Sage Sin does still have the superior Bloodpaint, superior Focused Mind and superior Tidal Protection, all of which make the Sage have higher survivability.

It makes me sad that people seem to forget that Sage sins have other skills than Bloodpaint.

Demon Focused Mind: 2/3 * 3/4 + 1/3 = 6/12 + 1/3 = 3/6 + 2/6 = 5/6 = 83% damage taken
Sage Focused Mind: 2/3 * 2/3 + 1/3 = 4/9 + 1/3 = 4/9 + 3/9 = 7/9 = 78% damage taken
---
Sage/Demon = 94%

There you go, Sages take 94% of the damage Demons take.

Any mistakes can be attributed to this thing.

bluesinxx · January 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Firstly: You should never, ever, go for G15 Nirvana with the intention of getting 2x -0.05 interval. Simply because the odds for that are 1:400. Add in GoF and you're looking at 1:16,000. The expected costs of either of these far outweight that of Rank 9.

Secondly: The DPS loss is kinda irrelevant for a few reasons. For one, there's got to be a point after which the additional DPS is just that: additional. Shaving off some seconds from killing a boss isn't really going to be meaningful.

Thirdly: 3.33 as a Sage is sufficient for most things, especially since you can use Windshield to get up to 4.0 if necessary. At 3.33 as a Sage, you'll be able to permaspark and use Power Dash as often as the cooldown allows.

Fourthly: The important Sage skills are: Bloodpaint, Dagger Devotion, Power Dash, Subsea Strike, Wolf Emblem, Focused Mind, Tidal Protection, Inner Harmony.

Finally: I personally know a 2.86 R9 Sage sin who can solo almost anything in the game short of a few WBs. And the only difference between his and your gear is that his refines are +10 minimum and he's sharded full DoT.

And just for giggles: A 4.0 base Sage using Windshield for 5.0 is practically identical to a Demon, except they have better survivability and more consistent damage.

If you dont mind a few more questions xD.
Should I try Gof and 0.5 for farm , Or get r9 and be 2.8\3.3 . This for PVE,And comparing on demons, difference beetwen 3.3 for 4.0 is huge?
I mean for TT,Vana,World bosses,

Anyway ty for answer =]

Traz - Dreamweaver · January 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
Simple. If you're 4 aps base, Wind Shield gets you to 5 aps. The Sage Sin does still have the superior Bloodpaint, superior Focused Mind and superior Tidal Protection, all of which make the Sage have higher survivability.

It makes me sad that people seem to forget that Sage sins have other skills than Bloodpaint.
Demon Focused Mind: 2/3 * 3/4 + 1/3 = 6/12 + 1/3 = 3/6 + 2/6 = 5/6 = 83% damage taken
Sage Focused Mind: 2/3 * 2/3 + 1/3 = 4/9 + 1/3 = 4/9 + 3/9 = 7/9 = 78% damage taken
---
Sage/Demon = 94%
There you go, Sages take 94% of the damage Demons take.

Any mistakes can be attributed to this thing.

From my experiences on both sage and demon sins, it's balanced. Mainly because certain bosses will sleep, seal, stun, blah, blah and I have a % chance not to get slept or stunned with demon focus mind. BP can be buffed on either type of sin, and in my case I have a sage BP slave. Seems all equal to me.

bluesinxx wrote: »

If you dont mind a few more questions xD.
Should I try Gof and 0.5 for farm , Or get r9 and be 2.8\3.3 . This for PVE,And comparing on demons, difference beetwen 3.3 for 4.0 is huge?
I mean for TT,Vana,World bosses,

Anyway ty for answer =]

No, you should not try for anything other then SS and -int on G15s. If you do PK a lot I'd say get r9, but the SS -int daggers do help for certain boss fights PvE wise. The difference between my sage sin and demon one (damage wise) is very very big, but sage sins are not that far behind in damage and can still do just as well living through a boss fight as a demon one can.

bluesinxx · January 2012

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The difference between my sage sin and demon one (damage wise) is very very big, but sage sins are not that far behind in damage and can still do just as well living through a boss fight as a demon one can.

So for me a 70% pve 30% pvp I should never became sage? =(

Edit But When I PK, I miss sooooooooooooooooo much sage subsea,tidal,shadow escape, and stuff

Traz - Dreamweaver · January 2012

bluesinxx wrote: »

So for me a 70% pve 30% pvp I should never became sage? =(

Edit But When I PK, I miss sooooooooooooooooo much sage subsea,tidal,shadow escape, and stuff

Non-sense damage isn't everything. It's up to how you like to play. I have both sins so I know the differences between both and they are very different. But when it comes to it, it's not about x does more damage so y must be a bad choice. That's being very narrow minded. There are lots of positives to being sage and lots to being demon and both are balanced very well. As others have said there are plenty of sage sins that can do everything a demon does, it's just done a little different.

Empu - Sanctuary · January 2012

@ OP : Considering your gear, changing culti is a waste. If you want to try sage, just make an alt and get an accountstash stone. It will cost a little more time and r8 for the chest part, but you won't waste the skills on your demon sin and have an extra key-collecting toon. Only with r9 or r8 recast gear I see the use of changing culti.

As for the daggers, they are pretty good stats already. I wouldn't reroll them, sage or demon.

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Non-sense damage isn't everything. It's up to how you like to play. I have both sins so I know the differences between both and they are very different. But when it comes to it, it's not about x does more damage so y must be a bad choice. That's being very narrow minded. There are lots of positives to being sage and lots to being demon and both are balanced very well. As others have said there are plenty of sage sins that can do everything a demon does, it's just done a little different.

This resumes everything. It's dumb to always want to point 1 as better then the other, especially if looking globally.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Finally: I personally know a 2.86 R9 Sage sin who can solo almost anything in the game short of a few WBs. And the only difference between his and your gear is that his refines are +10 minimum and he's sharded full DoT.

He needs a barb to solo seat b:shutup b:bye

Olbaze - Sanctuary · January 2012

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

He needs a barb to solo seat b:shutup b:bye

Yeah, what a noob.

b:cute

bluesinxx · January 2012

I have only DD ,wolf emblem and subsea, because I had plains to be sage, so I dont care much about skills :P.

Anyway for me I should do another sin on account and get r9 on sage ,and usedemon only on pve, the difference beetwen the both is so big like that?

Empu - Sanctuary · January 2012

But why on earth would you want to get r9 when you have good g15 nirvana with 2 sockets and +12 ?

Anyway, the r8 chest part is the only part of your gear you can't put in accountstash. Just make a 2nd sin and go sage... The skills to care about are the ones you thought on your sin that will be lost. Changing culti is totally worthless with the easy lvling, unless you have expensive bound gear that can't be put in accountstash, i.e. rank9 or maybe r8 recast.

bluesinxx · January 2012

R9 have 2 rare skills in a dagger

Gof
atk lvl...

Idk if I could use my sage sin for farm, I think I need to get usual to be 4.0...

About the sage resistence,I also dont care much about that I can do Vanas,TT w\o problems, I think on vana my sin will be a bite worse, but on TT rib strike and power dash will worth, or im wrong?

Empu - Sanctuary · January 2012

bluesinxx wrote: »

Idk if I could use my sage sin for farm, I think I need to get usual to be 4.0...

I don't really get what you mean with this.

For the rest :
-Sure, r9 is better then what you have now (could be debated ofc, not all like GoF and the absence of -int)... if you socket and refine it at least to the same lvl. It will never be more then a few seconds though. Personally, I don't think that is worth the huge cost. I doubt you used the g15 daggers enough to make it worth making, sharding and refining it to +12. But everyone is master of his own wallet ofc. Just keep in mind that you'll need to get to +12 again and garnet gems to notice a difference.
-I doubt you will notice that much difference in nirvana unless you solo it. With +12 weapons and ppl that know how to time debuffs/amps, the slightly improoved weapon of 1 out of 6 on 5 minute runs won't make a world of difference.
-As a sage sin myself, I'll never say that sage isn't worth it. I agree with Traz above, that both culties are just different and don't even try to qualify either of them as "better" then the other as I consider that a childish naif way to look at things. What I say is : changing culti is not worth it. You're better of making a new toon and get it to 100. The only reason to actually change would be r9 or r8 recasted gear because those are the only ones that have a big cost and can't be transfered to a new toon. Then again, who would get that kind of gear on a toon he/she doesn't like the culti on?

bluesinxx · January 2012

Sry for my bad english xD. I mean When you guys talk seens so

Sage will be fail for dps(comparing to demon). then
I shoud do another sin because my Sage will be usable ONLY for pvp, and let demon for pve.

I know Will fall down 5.0 to 4.0, And I need daimon for that ,

Just for that is 20%, And I cant use Frenzy,Tangling mire(anyway BM can HF,Tangling Mire and stuff)But anyway I'll get 8% more critical(bcs I loss demon DD) on power dash hf , And boss will start with 10% less hp,

PVP Ill not discuss how sage is better,only thing I see better on demon for pvp is stun.

But I play PVE,PVP and Im just worry for lossing alot damage on TT,Vana.

Anyway I think TT I'lll not be so many loss based on rib strike,

Anyway what I mean is,I want just a sin for both thing xD, I became sage ok Illl loss 5 skills,But I'll have the sage skills too and will be forever sage I guess, and again my fear is loss too many damage for being 3.3\4.0 (2.8\3.3 on future)

anyway thank for solve the most of doubts empu :P

Kastus - Raging Tide · January 2012

or!

just keep ur current gear 4.0 farming is still good

just go sage keep ur current gear

and go full r9 for pvp

and for farming sins are gonna be OP in the end of the day 4.0 or 5.0

Empu - Sanctuary · January 2012

bluesinxx wrote: »

Sage will be fail for dps(comparing to demon). then

PVP Ill not discuss how sage is better,only thing I see better on demon for pvp is stun.

But I play PVE,PVP and Im just worry for lossing alot damage on TT,Vana.

Those seem to be the general opinions, but personally I don't agree with them. Like Olbaze said above, with 2.86 aps I can solo pretty much anything and don't even have windshield. Those instances where demon would have made me noticably faster, I save out that time (if not more) by not having to look for buffs (or serie log alts to buff myself). Let's face it, killing the bosses only is the small part in most instances. Killing the mobs for kill counts and the running is what takes most time. As for nirvana, it's about the debuff timing more then someone's particular damage output. Long story short, like said above, anything you can achief with 1 culti can also be done by the other. It's just different in playstyle.

HellWariorB - Raging Tide · January 2012

There are many advantages of being sage sin. I have myself one 4.0 aps base and i like it more (skills related) then my friend R9 +12 sin (although i don't mind the dmg). I acquired most skills (still need PD, IH and SS QQ) and the effect of the skills between sage and demon is noticeable. As a sage sin u have the possibility of choosing between 4.0 or 5.0 sparked depending on bosses and situations and when i fight bosses i usually use WS after i spark so 2/3 of the spark time i am 5.0. If the boss is tough i usually stay 4.0 and selfbuffed with 6.1k hp i can solo SoT uncharmed (i usually don't use charms because is cheaper and more challenging).
Bottom line is don't choose your culty based on aps but base it on your playstile, skills u like and i don't believe your friends will care much if you are demon or sage.

Traz - Dreamweaver · January 2012

I have both sins that use the same G15 daggers. My demon will always be number 1 choice (even when sage sin gets refines on bound gear -different account-). The damage difference is **** difference. Sage sin is a very solid and nice build, but I just like the massive increase in damage my demon sin has over my sage sin.

bluesinxx · January 2012

I still LF skills before be sage but... I really think then will not be screwed up the dmg.

Sot for example mobs die very quickly, so I'll not notify more then 20 seconds on guards,bosses.

Vana, I do with 3 plp, 4 accounts, and the most important HF combo,Tangling mire stuff, I can loss 25% dmg on attack speed BUT, DD gives-me 5% more damage, power dash 8% more critical, I get one more 4x damage on HF(assault + crit), and make worth

TT I think is even better,boss starts with 10% less hp, and on HF,PD,Frenzy and stuff they will die on the same time

But on wednessday event(I forgot the name) you kill bosses and craft shards,ring,emblem.Demon is OP no doubts...

Anyway this is my opinion, Ill post my review after buy remaning skills

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · January 2012

@bluesinx, please don't. It's obvious English isn't your primary language, and that would just make my eyes and brains bleed.

Geshwur - Raging Tide · January 2012

I'm justsaying... Sage and demon, like it's been said before, are two completely different things...

That's NOT to say that sage sucks PvE...
My GF is 4base sage, and can solo FC just as fast as a 5.0 demon sin.

A sage played WELL can do just as well as any demon PvE.

Also, on the G15 w/Sac -int note...
I haveG15s that I'm working on getting Sac-int, AND have rolled a sage sin (On same account, w/account stash.) So I will soon have a comparison of 3.33 base sac sage vs 4.0 G13 sage.

As well as a good comparison of equal gear sage/demon sin.

Traz - Dreamweaver · January 2012

Geshwur - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'm justsaying... Sage and demon, like it's been said before, are two completely different things...

That's NOT to say that sage sucks PvE...
My GF is 4base sage, and can solo FC just as fast as a 5.0 demon sin.

A sage played WELL can do just as well as any demon PvE.

Also, on the G15 w/Sac -int note...
I haveG15s that I'm working on getting Sac-int, AND have rolled a sage sin (On same account, w/account stash.) So I will soon have a comparison of 3.33 base sac sage vs 4.0 G13 sage.

As well as a good comparison of equal gear sage/demon sin.

3.33/4.0 WS with full DoT and SS -int does a **** ton more damage then a G13 5.0 WS sin.

Nightstalk - Raging Tide · January 2012

Im sage and not going back. To many things I like about being sage. Plus I just got BP so its all good. Sage PowerDash is OP and I can't wait to get that one. I love Triple Sparking>Inner Harmony>DowerDash combos with extreme poison Fun stuff. Wouldn't trade my Sage for demon any day xD

Northern - Dreamweaver · January 2012

bluesinxx wrote: »

R9 have 2 rare skills in a dagger

Gof
atk lvl...

Idk if I could use my sage sin for farm, I think I need to get usual to be 4.0...

About the sage resistence,I also dont care much about that I can do Vanas,TT w\o problems, I think on vana my sin will be a bite worse, but on TT rib strike and power dash will worth, or im wrong?

The funny thing is you left out my favorite thing about rank 9 that almost no other dagger has.......+ 2 range

Niteshadows - Harshlands · January 2012

bluesinxx wrote: »

I still LF skills before be sage but... I really think then will not be screwed up the dmg.

Sot for example mobs die very quickly, so I'll not notify more then 20 seconds on guards,bosses.

Vana, I do with 3 plp, 4 accounts, and the most important HF combo,Tangling mire stuff, I can loss 25% dmg on attack speed BUT, DD gives-me 5% more damage, power dash 8% more critical, I get one more 4x damage on HF(assault + crit), and make worth

TT I think is even better,boss starts with 10% less hp, and on HF,PD,Frenzy and stuff they will die on the same time

But on wednessday event(I forgot the name) you kill bosses and craft shards,ring,emblem.Demon is OP no doubts...

Anyway this is my opinion, Ill post my review after buy remaning skills

demon is good no isn't. people gots others opinion and is no good no. nite's assumption is blue dont no speak engrish. ish sad something else, many laugh a good one and stuff for u. nite will stick head in toilet now. ~flush

ugghhhh what now?b:chuckle

Crones - Heavens Tear · January 2012

bluesinxx wrote: »

So for me a 70% pve 30% pvp I should never became sage? =(

Edit But When I PK, I miss sooooooooooooooooo much sage subsea,tidal,shadow escape, and stuff

Sage or GTFO my sin is sage i love it, the focused mind is so bad **** and u should stick with Stage 1 nirvana so u can have the 5aps with windsheild just +12 the dags and put 2 drakeflames for the shards for pve stuff...and getting r9 for solepurpose of pvp seems dumb to me waste of money on a sin. but if u plan to get full r9 on a sin it better be a sage sin anyways, ive seen a full r9 sage sin full dot shards +10 armor, +12 weapon with drakeflames in it solo warsong bh both fire and metal

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · January 2012

Niteshadows - Harshlands wrote: »

demon is good no isn't. people gots others opinion and is no good no. nite's assumption is blue dont no speak engrish. ish sad something else, many laugh a good one and stuff for u. nite will stick head in toilet now. ~flush

ugghhhh what now?b:chuckle

Lol, I think someone just got swirlied...

Crones - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ive seen a full r9 sage sin full dot shards +10 armor, +12 weapon with drakeflames in it solo warsong bh both fire and metal

Seen demon sins do this too without huge amount of gear. I mean, mine has flawless citriness and +7 refines and can solo the groups of mobs in metal and we've killed the boss before bb ever got up while I "tanked" the only 4 hits. I imagine with apos and a few more refines it's doable. And Fire is even easier.

Not to add fuel to any fire (sage sins are good for some reasons, demon sins are good for some reasons.) but the classic scenario of full DoT sage or full JoSD demon, the demon sin gets more damage reduction and more damage. As defense grows and defense levels are added 25% spark reduction becomes less important. Demon get easier dps in the early endgame stages, and a sage has to grow into their dps. Sage have more tankability early endgame and demons have to grow into theirs. I chose demon because of its damage because I see more options for growing defense than I do damage, even though its more expensive.

Dark Death thorn,R9 ,Sage questions :P

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