Seeker and Hp.

dex4life · January 2012

Hi my question is where do seeker's get their hp from?
Do they get it from the gear or do they have a special buff?
Or is it simply the vitality they have?
I have seen seekers with pretty high hp but didnt check their gear so im not sure.
Please explain b:bye

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · January 2012

many Seekers will put around 50 to 60 points into Vitality. On top of that they will often use high refine gears in order to increase their HP. Add this to the fact that most Seekers utilize nothing but HP Shards on their armor until really high levels (at which point they switch to a mix of Vitality, and Attack Level Shards) and we are talking about really high HP all around.

dex4life · January 2012

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

many Seekers will put around 50 to 60 points into Vitality. On top of that they will often use high refine gears in order to increase their HP. Add this to the fact that most Seekers utilize nothing but HP Shards on their armor until really high levels (at which point they switch to a mix of Vitality, and Attack Level Shards) and we are talking about really high HP all around.

I see.
So basically nothing different than what a bm could be if they wanted high HP as well right?
I made a seeker and i got him to level 30 and so far i love it lol

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · January 2012

b:surrender im weird i think, from when i got my tt70 gears, i sharded flawless garnet in my gears until recently where i mix the two. never regretted it.

Jessysm - Raging Tide · January 2012

Ya that does seem a bit weird, to shard garnets in the armor of a seeker. I mean they do wear heavy armor and all, so it isn't like their phys def is severely lacking or anything. It's quite the opposite really, magic defenses are lower. Though I believe seeker gets most of their damage reduction from their ability to obtain insanely high defense levels.

Perhaps considering a combination of HP and magic defense shards would work nicely.

cevil1 · January 2012

Early in the game, go for 2 str 2 dex 1 vit build.
Later, when you have at least tt90, restat and get +5~ refine. Use HP shards.
On your final gear, DO NOT put hp shards. I see many people on PWI do that, it's wrong, stop doing it.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · January 2012

cevil1 wrote: »

Early in the game, go for 2 str 2 dex 1 vit build.
Later, when you have at least tt90, restat and get +5~ refine. Use HP shards.
On your final gear, DO NOT put hp shards. I see many people on PWI do that, it's wrong, stop doing it.

what kind of build is that?

The build you need in order to equip your gear is going to be at least 5 STR and 3 DEX every 2 levels with 2 left over points between those two levels. Those two left over points usually go into Vitality.

When you have capped your vitality at 50 to 60 you should switch to a 6 STR 4 DEX build every two levels until such a time as your dexterity is capped at exactly 160. Once that is done you put all of your remaining points into Strength.

You want 50 to 60 Vitality so that you have a decent Hit Point level before shards. I would highly suggest that if you do not have a small fortune to devote to this game that you do not re-stat your vitality points.

As for why you want 160 Dexterity, it is because the highest level swords require at least 155 Dexterity in order to use them. But in order to get a nice even Critical Hit Rate Score you need to go up to 160 since every 20 points in Dexterity increases your Critical Hit Rate Percentile by 1.

Finally, to answer the question of whether Seekers do basically the same thing as what a Blademaster can potentially do... The simplest answer is yes, if a Blademaster wanted to go with a pure heavy armor and swords build Blademaster, they could in theory probably come up with something pretty similar HP wise to what a Seeker has. However they would be incapable of tanking in the same way as a Seeker is capable of for a couple of reasons: First Seekers have Vortex and Gemini Slash, both of which allow them to do massive amounts of damage to mobs that most other melee classes simply can't compare to without massive amounts of assistance. Secondly we also have a skill that grants innate Defense Levels. The only other class to my knowledge with that ability is the Psychic, though I could be mistaken on that mark. So yeah we are basically the second true hard tanking class. Though Blademasters and Assassins can steal hate from a poorly geared Seeker, it has become less of an issue as of the release of Seeker Rank 9 first cast and Seeker Rank 8 second cast.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · January 2012

cevil1 wrote: »

Early in the game, go for 2 str 2 dex 1 vit build.
Later, when you have at least tt90, restat and get +5~ refine. Use HP shards.
On your final gear, DO NOT put hp shards. I see many people on PWI do that, it's wrong, stop doing it.

You restat if you plan on going r8 and using vit stones. Otherwise, keep the vit.

AtelierEdge - Harshlands · January 2012

Well I have full nirvana +5 without shards and 60 on vit and I have 9.3k hp I need to put more vit stones on my gear to survive more but from there my damage is good also my defense

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · January 2012

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

what kind of build is that?

im guessing its a LA or mage build >.>

seekers arent exactly the BEST dd around so i personally rather not sacrifice a load of VIT just so i can pass on HP shards
b:surrender

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2012

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

When you have capped your vitality at 50 to 60 you should switch to a 6 STR 4 DEX build every two levels until such a time as your dexterity is capped at exactly 160. Once that is done you put all of your remaining points into Strength.

I've seen a lot of Seekers saying that dex should be capped at 160 and everything else into strength for maximum damage. However I think aspiring seekers should also know that their accuracy (determined by how many points you put in dex) will suffer greatly unless you invest in not one but two rings (preferably "sign of frost: chaos" but misty rings will do in a pinch if you can't afford the former) with 50% increase in accuracy stats.

Why does accuracy matter ?

Well if you only PVE then I suppose its not such a big deal but in PVP Sins with their ridiculously high evasion stats will laugh at you and all the "MISS !!" "MISS!!" red highlights above their heads. b:laugh

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · January 2012

Doing some testing, STR did not increase my base damage at all. (Or at least not significantly with the values I was playing with.) DEX, however, did have quite an impact on the base damage range.

So I'm starting to wonder, where exactly do I want to put those points when they stop going to VIT?

CatManDoo - Dreamweaver · January 2012

i was like 82 vit point seeker:), i added so many points cause i wanted to pull fc-s easily and i did it really well (with legendary or tt80/90 atleast 3 sockets & +3 ref armor i remember i had 6,8-7,6k hp). and vortex was so powerful, so loss of str didnt matter much, only thing was that i wasnt good agro holder on bosses:). well now i,m r9 with almost 12,3k hp, full str, 160 dex. with one 50% acc ring i miss i sometimes miss some shots, but no way i,m adding more dex, probably buying sky cover ring to get extra acc.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · January 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Doing some testing, STR did not increase my base damage at all. (Or at least not significantly with the values I was playing with.) DEX, however, did have quite an impact on the base damage range.

So I'm starting to wonder, where exactly do I want to put those points when they stop going to VIT?

find some super rich guy to have them restat max possible str and dex and see how it goes

useful info needed lol

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · January 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Doing some testing, STR did not increase my base damage at all. (Or at least not significantly with the values I was playing with.) DEX, however, did have quite an impact on the base damage range.

So I'm starting to wonder, where exactly do I want to put those points when they stop going to VIT?

This is partially why I was so heavy on dex before I restated for r8. I once had 206 dex. I removed 46 vit, and about 80 something dex, and placed it all into str. I have 393 str now.

You could forgo str in this case, and just go all dex.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · January 2012

I went a heavy vit build, which was really abnormal for me since most my characters are pure. Pure dex sin/archer, pure magic cleric/wizard/psychic, HA veno, 400str/200dex bm, all with only 3 vitality and my barb only has about 50 vit points.

The reason is because seekers tend to be skill spammers and our skills are xx% base dmg + xxxx static damage + xx% weapon dmg. Strength affects your base damage, but the other two numbers aren't affected by strength.

As an HA class we really get the least benefit from strength for a couple reasons. The first being strength plays such a small role in our skill damage.

The second is our regular auto attack dps is ...kind of pathetic compared to every other melee class.

The third is because of our huge defense levels. Lets say your gear reduces 80% dmg and you have 50 defense levels. This means your defense levels are absorbing 10% more damage and you are taking approx 10% of damage. Well, if you had horrid, ridiculously bad physical defense with only 50% reduction, and still had 50 defense levels that means your defense levels would be more useful by soaking up 25% of the damage. They have kind of a reverse synergy where the more effective one is then the less useful the other is. Since Seekers have huge defense levels it makes defense "less" important than normal. Not that you can ever have too much defense.

On the other hand, Seekers get a high amount of hp per vit point, and the defense levels help potentiate that hp. Adding 100 hp when you have 50 defense levels is like adding 150 more hp to your survivability.

Anyway, I saw no reason to limit my vitality pre super-endgame so I statted 120 vit, lol. Almost everything I didn't need to wear my endgame swords.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2012

Yeah my BM is also pure strength with the 200 dex cap so I can wear claws, etc...

But with my Seeker I can now see that there is little point to throwing everything into strength while forgoing either Vit or Dex. Strength just doesn't add that much significantly to base damage to justify losing the additional HP from statting Vit or the extra Crit from pumping Dex.

As Sakubatou pointed out above... we are skill spammers and most of our skill damage consists of base damage + xxx % weapon damage + some arbitrary figure. And unfortunately strength enhances only one of those damage multipliers... the base damage. Even when we 3 spark for extra damage (again thanks to Sabu for pointing it out to me on the BM board), base damage where strength increases apply... remains unchanged. Your sage/demon spark only multiplies the damage on your weapon which it then adds to whatever your base + arbitrary damage figure is.

I originally had my Seeker's dex capped at 200 also but decided to play around and lower it to 160 and put the 40 points into strength (Vit remains at 3). I'm sorry to say the damage increase was insignificant... honestly I hardly noticed a difference. It was certainly not worth giving up 3 crit points for (40 dex plus swapping my 4% crit R8 ring for an extra Frost Chaos ring with only 3% crit but which I needed to help with lowered accuracy).

Suffice to say I was done with that experiment and my Seekers over all crit rate is now back up to 26% b:victory

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · January 2012

ok, so extra points to STR, not worth it. I've been following this chart, but I'm starting to wonder if I want to cap VIT at some point and just put the extra points in DEX.

I did notice when I hit 90 that my Mountcrasher gear only called for 227 STR, but the chart shows 229. I'm using the Divine Comprehension blades atm, and I'm not sure if 229 is a req for a level 90 weap. So I just went ahead and dropped the points there.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · January 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

ok, so extra points to STR, not worth it. I've been following this chart, but I'm starting to wonder if I want to cap VIT at some point and just put the extra points in DEX.

I did notice when I hit 90 that my Mountcrasher gear only called for 227 STR, but the chart shows 229. I'm using the Divine Comprehension blades atm, and I'm not sure if 229 is a req for a level 90 weap. So I just went ahead and dropped the points there.

I am not sure who designed that chart, but that chart is way off on the Vitality, and slightly off on the Dexterity when you hit level 105.

There is absolutely no reason I can think of why one should have 106 Base Vitality (before gear) at level 105. In fact some Seekers restat so that they only have 3 Base Vitality before gear. In my opinion the ideal vitality to have at level 105 would be somewhere between 50 and 60 Base Vitality and probably closer to 50 before gear.

As for Dexterity, technically you only need 155 Dexterity, but in order to get the best Critical Hit Rate most Seekers will up that to 160. There really is no reason other than optimizing Accuracy and Evasion that you should raise the Dexterity any higher than 160.

Whatever is left over after Vitality and Dexterity are determined should always go into one's strength score.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · January 2012

i should check out my seeker stats later. From the beginning i relied alot on dex crit since no matter how much we spam skills, our rate of attack wasnt that fast

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · January 2012

Interesting info, so I played around a bit with pwcalc.....

My current build...
http://pwcalc.com/af8e0048aa9ed124
HP ~ 7081
Physical Atk. ~ 3070-3765
Pdef ~ 6643
Crit ~ 11%
Accuracy ~ 2415
Evasion ~ 1784

50 VIT extra 40 to DEX
http://pwcalc.com/4f3dbb5128ebbac5
HP ~ 6481
Physical Atk. ~ 3070-3765
Pdef ~ 6477
Crit ~ 13%
Accuracy ~ 3015
Evasion ~ 2184

50 VIT, extra 40 to STR
http://pwcalc.com/2b1527e91f493f69
HP ~ 6481
Physical Atk. ~ 3389-4155
Pdef ~ 6709
Crit ~ 11%
Accuracy ~ 2415
Evasion ~ 1784

At a glance, points to STR, only have a significant improvement to the pdef value. Which, as Hexalot previously described, is moot given our def levels. HOWEVER, look at the significant increase in the base damage range.

Putting the points to DEX makes a significant increase in the accuracy and evasion values, plus there is another 2% crit.

Now here's where we get to the fuzzy part....
Which is going to be a bigger benefit long-term?
For me, it's going to come right down to which deals the most damage since the differences in the defense values are pretty much moot.

Say I'm running a vortex for an hour in Delta. Which build will deal the most overall damage in that hour? STR has a nice steady increase to all damage dealt across the board, but how does that compare with dealing double damage 2% more often?

I'll have to make a chart for that in a few. I've got a formula sitting around here somewhere I used to compare pet DPS, shouldn't take long to convert some values.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · January 2012

Okay I have a few questions about your build Sylven... why the heavy focus on the magic attribute? Also why do you have a magic attack ring when Seeker does not benefit at all from such rings? I assume that you have magic defense items for the same reason I do, and that being Seekers significant lack of Magic Defense, but I tend to make up for that lack of defense by having a Genie that has Absolute Domain instead of by focusing on a high Magic Score (relatively speaking). Also it should be noted that with sufficient Herb Yuanxiao that one need not worry so much about having a low MP score.

For reference this is my build:

http://pwcalc.com/4716c07e336cb16c

_Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear · January 2012

fairly cheap endgame build that balaces seeker's defence and HP:

http://pwcalc.com/d8ee4410bd758760

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · January 2012

_Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

fairly cheap endgame build that balaces seeker's defence and HP:

http://pwcalc.com/d8ee4410bd758760

I wouldn't necessarily call that a cheap build, but it certainly is an interesting one that I hadn't considered before.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · January 2012

The magic ring is just there because it was a quest reward and has MP + 110. I need to replace it with a real ring, I just haven't decided what yet.
The focus on boosting the magic attribute was to keep mana up for the sole purpose of sustaining Vortex without having to suck mp food like it's going out of style. I plan on getting a Lunar Glade robe and filling it with Turquoise like my helm and then changing the Tome to something more fitting. I might get another Musty just because it's cheap and has the +Vit, but I might also shoot for a Ring of Mastadon's Strength via farming or a Sign of Frost: Chaos if I can merchant the coin for one.

I don't cash shop so it's not likely that I'll ever get a build like _Nottunyx_'s, but that is fairly interesting.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands · January 2012

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah my BM is also pure strength with the 200 dex cap so I can wear claws, etc...

But with my Seeker I can now see that there is little point to throwing everything into strength while forgoing either Vit or Dex. Strength just doesn't add that much significantly to base damage to justify losing the additional HP from statting Vit or the extra Crit from pumping Dex.

As Sakubatou pointed out above... we are skill spammers and most of our skill damage consists of base damage + xxx % weapon damage + some arbitrary figure. And unfortunately strength enhances only one of those damage multipliers... the base damage. Even when we 3 spark for extra damage (again thanks to Sabu for pointing it out to me on the BM board), base damage where strength increases apply... remains unchanged. Your sage/demon spark only multiplies the damage on your weapon which it then adds to whatever your base + arbitrary damage figure is.

I originally had my Seeker's dex capped at 200 also but decided to play around and lower it to 160 and put the 40 points into strength (Vit remains at 3). I'm sorry to say the damage increase was insignificant... honestly I hardly noticed a difference. It was certainly not worth giving up 3 crit points for (40 dex plus swapping my 4% crit R8 ring for an extra Frost Chaos ring with only 3% crit but which I needed to help with lowered accuracy).

Suffice to say I was done with that experiment and my Seekers over all crit rate is now back up to 26% b:victory

Of course, the lower your weapon attack is, the lower the amount that your strength will affect your base damage by will be, since base damage is a direct product of your mastery, your strength divided by 150, and your weapon attack.

The better your weapon gets, in terms of attack range/height, the more your strength will affect your base damage.

However, the amount of survivability that your vitality adds in the form of HP is nearly constant, excluding the +5% HP from cube neck/R9 recast chest/some other necklaces. So yes, it may be more efficient to add vitality when your weapon isn't too strong.

In the end, if you plan on getting a weapon at endgame that's relatively strong, then the increasing returns from the product of your weapon damage and your weapon attack multiplier from strength (Str/150) will eclipse the constant returns of the extra vitality, and it will start to seem more desirable to restat that vit into strength.

The same can be said for dexterity, since the amount that it contributes to your crit is also constant, and strength is a factor in the efficiency of added crit.

Mattiks - Dreamweaver · January 2012

I would say while leveling up and learning the class, a build that includes vit is great, survivability is very important. But once you approach your endgame build, it is definitely better to go PURE strength. What I mean is, vit 3, dex 3, as much possible in strength, with the minimum requirement of dex needed to wield your sword. I've heard of capping dexterity at 160, but capping it at 150 is fine if you have the rank 8 sword. Personally, my dex is capped at 132 and eventually plan to lower it to 121. But the only reason I'm going so low on dex is that my sword only needs 141 dex and my helm and cape each give 10 dex as a bonus. If your a rank 8 seeker your dex should be capped at 150 (green), but i digress, this isn't a dex thread. Endgame seeker hp should come from refines basically, vit should be 3 base if you want maximum damage output/phys defense, and HP is better off coming from refines and shards. I hope this was helpful.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · January 2012

Ok, I finally took a few minutes and worked out the damage differnces between the different builds I posted earlier.

Now, we will use Vortex as our base because it does a fixed DPS.
I'll also calculate using L10 Vortex so that we don't get ito any differences between Sage and Demon.
The damage is equal to base damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus 7842.8. For the weapon, we'll use my Divine Comprehension with a weapon damage range of 999-1269. (We'll use the median of 1134)
It states that it consumes mana every 1.5 seconds, but deals constant damage. When I use Vortex, I see damage numbers about every 5 seconds, and it's 3 numbers displaying at once, so I'll use 36 attacks per minute for this formula.

So, now that we've defined our damage bases, here's the formula...
((base damage + 100% weapon damage + 7842.8) = Base Damage per strike
A Critical Strike would be (Base Damage per Strike x 2)
Then we need to calculate the critstrike rate into our overall formula...
If we figure a critstrike rate of 10%, then that's 6 crits per minute. then you could count 32.4 regular stikes and 3.6 critical strikes per minute. Sure, you never have a partial crit, but we'll work with it for now...
So, then we take all of these fun numbers, and throw them together into the final formula..
((Base Damage per Strike x 32.4) + (Critical Strike Damage x 3.6)) / 60 = Damage Per Second
Sure it's not perfect because Crits are still random, but for theorizing which system will net more damage, it's an exellent base.

Now for the formulas.

My current build. (Links are in my post above)
Base Damage = 3417.5 (Median of 3070 and 3765)
3417.5 + 1134 + 7842.8 = 12394.3 Base Damage per Strike
12394.3 x 2 = 24788.6 Critical Strike Damage
Critical Rate is 11%, so 11% of 36 stikes is 3.96.
(12394.3 x 32.04) + (24788.6 x 3.96) / 60 =
(397113.4 + 98162.9) / 60 =
495276.3 / 60 = 8254.6 DPS

whew...

My DEX build
Base Damage = 3417.5 (Median of 3070 and 3765)
3417.5 + 1134 + 7842.8 = 12394.3 Base Damage per Strike
12394.3 x 2 = 24788.6 Critical Strike Damage
Critical Rate is 13%, so 13% of 36 stikes is 4.68.
(12394.3 x 31.32) + (24788.6 x 4.68) / 60 =
(388189.5 + 116010.6) / 60 =
504200.1 / 60 = 8403.3 DPS

One more time...

My STR build
Base Damage = 3772 (Median of 3389 and 4155)
3772 + 1134 + 7842.8 = 12748.8 Base Damage per Strike
12748.8 x 2 = 25497.6 Critical Strike Damage
Critical Rate is 11%, so 11% of 36 stikes is 3.96.
(12748.8 x 32.04) + (25497.6 x 3.96) / 60 =
(408471.5 + 100970.5) / 60 =
509442 / 60 = 8490.7 DPS

So, for those that can't see through the math....

Vortex DPS of VIT build is. 8254.6
Vortex DPS of DEX build is 8403.3
Vortex DPS of STR build is. 8490.7

While that initially doesn't look like a huge difference, look at the per-minute damage...
Vortex DPM of VIT build is. 495276.3
Vortex DPM of DEX build is 504200.1
Vortex DPM of STR build is. 509442

Or for the Delta fiends, here's per HOUR =P
Vortex DPH of VIT build is. 29,716,578
Vortex DPH of DEX build is 30,252,006 (535,428 more than VIT)
Vortex DPH of STR build is. 30,566,520 (314,514 more than DEX, 849,942 more than VIT)
That's a HUGE difference of per hour of damage between the builds.

It just confirms what Mattiks said. Pure STR is going to be the best overall build. It not only boosts your defense, but has the highest average output damage as well, even counting the Crits with Dex. As far as Accuracy goes, I very rarely miss with an accuracy of 2415, increasing it by 600 points isn't going to make a huge difference overall. Same goes for Evasion.

ItsAWolf - Archosaur · January 2012

To be honest, a less than 3% damage increase when comparing vit build versus str build only proves to me that the differences are negligible and you should do whatever floats your boat really. For example: add all the vit you need until you feel you can survive, add the dex you want to hit/crit comfortably then add the rest to str. Then once you get to refining the **** out of your gear at endgame remove the vit (especially since str will start adding more to your overall damage once you get to your R9 sword or whatever).

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · January 2012

I was kinda hoping the DEX build would be stronger.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · January 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

At a glance, points to STR, only have a significant improvement to the pdef value. Which, as Hexalot previously described, is moot given our def levels. HOWEVER, look at the significant increase in the base damage range.

Putting the points to DEX makes a significant increase in the accuracy and evasion values, plus there is another 2% crit.

Now here's where we get to the fuzzy part....
Which is going to be a bigger benefit long-term?
For me, it's going to come right down to which deals the most damage since the differences in the defense values are pretty much moot.

Say I'm running a vortex for an hour in Delta. Which build will deal the most overall damage in that hour? STR has a nice steady increase to all damage dealt across the board, but how does that compare with dealing double damage 2% more often?

I'll have to make a chart for that in a few. I've got a formula sitting around here somewhere I used to compare pet DPS, shouldn't take long to convert some values.

if seeker could ever DECENTLY go 3.33+ APS then id restat more to STR. But as it stands, we arent speed hitters and rely on each hit and skill making their mark so personally id rather focus on accuracy and crit.

i think for seeker there are too many factors coming into place because not all attacks will be a constant vortex, nor will all players have the same combos which in turn affects each seekers speed output too. What stat might be good for a delta vortex might suck great monkey balls for skill spammage. It kinda reminds me of cleric and the citrine/garnet shard debates.

Seeker and Hp.

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