Aps Bm vs. Sin

Sin>Every other class

_Cain_ - Lost City wrote: »

I'm wondering if I should shoot for 5aps on my sin or bm. My sin is currently 2.86 aps with rank 8. But I was wondering whether I should just account stash my stuff over to my bm to make him 5aps. I want to continue gearing my sin but its freaking hard to find the nv squads at this stage. I know damage wise a 5aps sin far out dds a 5aps bm but I dunno.

Its easy for people to say sins out-do everyone else which is beyond false. They have always hated assassins for killing single (which is odd) targets faster. Both 5APS require $$$ or a lot of coin farming.

Warriors have survived better, and always will survive better than assassins. Higher HP and overall defense, along with certain skills to nerf bosses / or heavy hitter's damage and amp. Assassins have pretty low survival rate, even with deaden nerves, they can still die if you are not careful. Pretty much, you will need enough HP to take hits, which is most important.

APS Warriors's advantage over assassin.
Better debuffs / amps
Higher survival

APS assassin's advantage over warriors
Higher DPS meaning easier healing from bloodpaint
Can use deaden nerves to make sure they don't die / chance to take only 1 damage


From an in game perspective when it comes to rushed random squads, your APS is not enough for some to accept you in nirvana, you will have to have 3.33 / 4.0 APS at least. Yet, keep your assassin and invest in more interval gear, (do not abandon survival). Just an advice.

Jin_Wang - Lost City wrote: »

Warriors have survived better, and always will survive better than assassins.

lolwut

Let's see which does better in a solo TT run, a self buffed sin or a self buffed bm. I'll put my money on the harder hitting class that can use bloodpaint.

A 92 sin at 2.22 sparked with +4 hook and thorns out DD's my 95 BM with +7 Gorenox Vanity at 2.86 Sparked. Not sure at +10...

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

coupled with rib strike that reduces the boss attk rate by 65%..add on top higher crit rate (up to 90% crit rate with powerdash) and extra 40% dmg to every crit from wolf emblem....

Nice asspulling there.

65% is for Demon Rib Strike.
90% Crit is hardly realistic for Demon Power Dash as that requires you have 50% Crit before it
40% damage to crits is for Demon Wolf Emblem

Majority of all sins won't have anywhere even close to 90% crit on Demon. I'd say 75-80% is more realistic.

Sage, on the other hand, gets 50% on Power Dash, which would push them to an easy 85-90%.

Also, due to the duration and cooldown on Demon Wolf Emblem, you're averaging 20% more damage per crit.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Nice asspulling there.

65% is for Demon Rib Strike.
90% Crit is hardly realistic for Demon Power Dash as that requires you have 50% Crit before it
40% damage to crits is for Demon Wolf Emblem

Majority of all sins won't have anywhere even close to 90% crit on Demon. I'd say 75-80% is more realistic.

Sage, on the other hand, gets 50% on Power Dash, which would push them to an easy 85-90%.

Also, due to the duration and cooldown on Demon Wolf Emblem, you're averaging 20% more damage per crit.

yeah, demon rib strike, demon wolf emblem (or are you one of those sins that just get tripple spark and ignore and consider endgame skill status reached?), and let's go down to 80% crit for your entertainment. Where's the asspulling? I'm kind of missing your point besinde trying to tell ppl "wait , sin it's not that good". It is actually that good, and anyone in game now is making a mistake if doesn't have/makes one for farming purposes.
I have also a 5 aps bm (9k base HP and 9k mdef/pdef cleric buffed with magic marrow) and vs my 5 aps sin (8k HP with 6.5k defenses) it is....lol, there is no competition. BM is just a BH reward / opener hoe, there's nothing the sin can't do a lot better: faster kills with less risk and better survival.

tyvm, ppl like you make the game available to ppl like me.
spend more sir, I for one ty.

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

(or are you one of those sins that just get tripple spark and ignore and consider endgame skill status reached?)

Why not go ahead and see for yourself how ignored they look?

And it's not me who ignores the skills, it's the Demon sins that do. Honestly, majority of all demon sins get Rib Strike and Dagger Devotion and figure they'll never need anything else.

and let's go down to 80% crit for your entertainment. Where's the asspulling? I'm kind of missing your point besinde trying to tell ppl "wait , sin it's not that good".

The difference is that 90% crit gives you 5% more DPS than 80%. That's a lot when you're talking 15-20k DPH, 5 aps and tons of attack levels.

again, I have both, sin and BM, sharing the exact same gear except Top, boots and weapon, and again, I will say this, maybe it will get through some thick skulls finally: No matter the raw numbers in defense and HP, the Sin will always have better survival and better damage than the BM. Always.

@BloodyNero: It doesn't matter if some sins use or don't use rib strike, it doesn't matter what is the cooldown on wolf emblem and focused mind. REALLY, it doesn't matter. You know why? because every boss is dead before the skill effect is gone. On a same grade weapon, sin does about 50% more non crit damage to a boss (my bm does 3-3.5k/hit - my sin does 4.8-5.6k/hit, all non crit values). My BM has 27% crit (i guess) my sin has 4x % crit. Powerdash gives me 80% crit for 8 seconds and wolf emblem adds extra 40% crit damage on each crit hit.

There is no class in game that can farm better,easier and faster than a sin, whoever thinks that never played an endgame one. I was in the same boat, believe me , that's why I rolled a 5 aps +10 bm first. Then I quit the game for a while and when I came back I said to myself: why not roll a sin? I had much of the gear already on BM so... well, I did , and wow. Just wow. There is simply no comparison between Sins and anything else in game when we talk about PvE. Don't get me wrong, BMs at 5 aps +10 are also great, but they are a far, far second place behind Sins.

id choose sin just for the 5.0 bloodpaint >.>

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

again, I have both, sin and BM, sharing the exact same gear except Top, boots and weapon, and again, I will say this, maybe it will get through some thick skulls finally: No matter the raw numbers in defense and HP, the Sin will always have better survival and better damage than the BM. Always.

@BloodyNero: It doesn't matter if some sins use or don't use rib strike, it doesn't matter what is the cooldown on wolf emblem and focused mind. REALLY, it doesn't matter. You know why? because every boss is dead before the skill effect is gone. On a same grade weapon, sin does about 50% more non crit damage to a boss (my bm does 3-3.5k/hit - my sin does 4.8-5.6k/hit, all non crit values). My BM has 27% crit (i guess) my sin has 4x % crit. Powerdash gives me 80% crit for 8 seconds and wolf emblem adds extra 40% crit damage on each crit hit.

There is no class in game that can farm better,easier and faster than a sin, whoever thinks that never played an endgame one. I was in the same boat, believe me , that's why I rolled a 5 aps +10 bm first. Then I quit the game for a while and when I came back I said to myself: why not roll a sin? I had much of the gear already on BM so... well, I did , and wow. Just wow. There is simply no comparison between Sins and anything else in game when we talk about PvE. Don't get me wrong, BMs at 5 aps +10 are also great, but they are a far, far second place behind Sins.

I really don't like seeing credentials like 'i have a 5.0 sin and a 5.0 bm so i know better than you' u may not hv intended that but well u keep repeating and emphasizing on this fact so it actually seems like it.

I know that sins do better damage than bms but what i'm talking about is survival wise, BM beats a sin. That is the value of the heavy armor, the def buff and the high genetic pdef of BMs combined with alter marrows. The evasion difference is not so great as compared to the pdef difference. I've had to run from a world boss to survive after winding up taking the aggro from the barb (thanks alot to the BM in the squad); i had a charm on and without that i'd be toast and i have a nice 7k HP and fully buffed. The BM on the other hand took aggro from the barb (geez, devs pls fix the aggro damn it) he held on to it till the end of the fight; and most importantly survived the world boss' hits. Trust me i've seen his modest gear, deicides and all but the way the world boss hit him.....let's say it this way. What i felt as a burning iron rod on my back, seemed like a hard hotel pillow to that BM.

Another thing about farming u say, "a sin can kill a boss in 1minute"... u seem to forget why BMs are there in nirvana squads and why aps matters there also for a BM. If u really wanna remember that try doing a nirvy run with only sins. Now if u're talking with reference to FC soloing, then yeah a sin can kill a boss in 1-2 minutes. But soloing FC is only 1 part of money making. Why do u think most of the 4-5 aps sins are now in nirvana and not out there soloing FC?

I agree sins are a fun class to play with, high damage, pk ability and u are clearly mesmerised by the way of the sin but getting a full geared sin is a mega pain which is what Cain was asking us

_Cain_ - Lost City wrote: »

I'm wondering if I should shoot for 5aps on my sin or bm. My sin is currently 2.86 aps with rank 8. But I was wondering whether I should just account stash my stuff over to my bm to make him 5aps. I want to continue gearing my sin but its freaking hard to find the nv squads at this stage. I know damage wise a 5aps sin far out dds a 5aps bm but I dunno.

Getting aps on ur BM is way cheaper than getting 5 aps on ur sin. I'd say get ur BM to 5.0 1st and then farm nirvana gear and then make ur sin 5aps. Sins mainly for soloing FC as they can stealth past the mobs . But this can be done with BMs too if u wanna sell the full runs. Either way selling FC ain't as lucrative as Nirvana.

You know, nevermind. >_> I'm gonna just go to bed.

SirChad - Raging Tide wrote: »

APS on PWI won't be getting nerfed anytime soon. Whatever you heard is **** tbh. PWI would lose so much money.

As for the debate... why even ask? You are going to choose sin anyways. All the servers are mostly sins. Until they get nerfed.. (which they won't as stated above) It will remain that way.

Sin is the one class you can play, without having any knowledge of how to use the class, and still be good. It's why everyone makes them. If they tell you otherwise... they are lying. Simple.

Looool i like, i like xDD

BloodyNero - Raging Tide wrote: »

Getting aps on ur BM is way cheaper than getting 5 aps on ur sin. I'd say get ur BM to 5.0 1st and then farm nirvana gear and then make ur sin 5aps. Sins mainly for soloing FC as they can stealth past the mobs . But this can be done with BMs too if u wanna sell the full runs. Either way selling FC ain't as lucrative as Nirvana.

you compare getting "some" aps on BM with getting 5 aps on sin?. Sure, -int weapons for sins might be more expensive than deicide because of the simple fact deicide comes from packs, but other than that you kida' need to use the same gear, so I don't see where you're going with "cheaper" here. And BTW, a 3.33 R8 sin still out DDs a 5 aps deicide. To make 5 aps BM you need TT99 HA /LA combo + tome or recast pants.
So with the idea in mind that you're going to make a Sin later you're basically working for LA sleeves, LA boots, LA pants ... lol, where's the HA advantage you're talking about? If you're not going LA but HA for full advantage of defenses, then you'll have to farm again the LA pieces. Lol, g13 dagg is about 130 mil now, go do math just how much is going to cost you to get deicide + gold mats for 3 pieces of TT99 gold.
You're keep marching on the defenses and HP numbers and keep ignoring the fact that Sins don't need that much HP or def to survive the same sittuations better. Why? Because of ribstrike that reduces the incoming DPS of boss by 50%, BP that heals for more than BM (about 50% more for same refines) and the 25% to avoid hits. So you take down the hit counts from boss by 50% and then you have 1/4 chances to avoid the hits...can you actually understand how much incoming damage is reduced that way? Plus Deaden Nerve if something goes south....

BaseTheAcE - Sanctuary wrote: »

Let's Compare BM vs Sin ;o

1) Solo TT:
Low Gear: (+3 - +5)
BM dosn't rly need alot of gear / refine --> 5.0 aps, +4 gear is enough to solo all TT's exept 3-1 Beast Boss (Possible if u avoid Purge with Domain, apo)3-2, 3-3 ;o

I really , really wanna see you solo 2-3 with +4 gear with flawless in it, or were you talking about +4 but +10 vit in sockets? Feel free to post a vid where you clean up 2-3 with a +4-5 deicide +4 gear BM SOLO.

Sin needs more gear to Solo TT like 2-3 for example. +4 Gear on Sin, 6k - 7k hp ;o hmm almsot 1 hit in 2-3 by AE... WuLord gonna **** em aswell etc etc.

and BM will just laugh and lauch in face of wurlord, right?

Mid Gear:(+6 - +8)
BM won't even need a charm now to solo stuff

solo what?

Sin still needs charm and might gonna die if u do some little mistakes. Still u can solo pretty much while ur way faster than BM.

I'm at +5 with 3 immac in each gear piece. I can solo nirvana without charm.

High - Ultra Gear: (+9 - +12)
BM can solo all kind of TT's

Sin can solo all kind of TT's but way faster than BM ;o

this should have been the status for all intervals

2) FCC
8k hp buffed is enough to solo FCC w/o bigger kind of Problems - Easy to know that BM get this kind of HP way easier.
Still Once Sin got this kind of amount of HP ur faster again, can avoid most of mobs.
Only Problem for SIns IMO is to solo BigRoom in 1 Pull ;o
Most of sins need a very good gear for that.
(Yaya I know u can solo Big Room with epic noob gear but a decent weapon apo helps so don't QQ)

I've been soloing FC with 5k HP for a couple of months before 2x. 8k HP on sin? I barely have that now and I can solo Nirvana with it just fine (talking about unbuffed values here).

3) FB's
BM can tank all FB's / BH's in general w/o bigger problems. Still u will have to go in squad most of times.
(Ofc u can solo it with a decent gear but unwined takes kinda ages compared an unwined FB for a sin)
Exept FB69 and FB99 a sin can solo his BH most of times even with low gear.
With Mid gear or higher u can easy solo all FB's. (Unwined ;o)

FB69 who cares, FB 99 /BH are solo-able as soon as sin has over 7k HP. I've been doing SoT/Abaddon since I hit that mark. Not that I would have had to wait that much, but I just thought that would make me comfortable. Taking those in a squad? lol, since I started doing BH100,

4) Rebirth
BM not having many problems in Rebirth in general. With Ultra gear u can even solo Delta ;o
HF, Glacial Spike helps alot.
Sin not taking that much aggro in Waves (Yea I know the dmg of R9 sin and there 1hit power but plz keep it average) in general.
Subsea is a nice dmg addon, bloodpaint helps the BM and Barb but not a necessary.
(Idk why some squads QQ to do BH Delta without BP these days.)
Sin can drop the Bosses fast. In general a well class aswell for Delta.

RB is moot point. A wizard with **** gear can get easier in RB than a Sin and sometimes BM.

5) Nirvana
Both classes are kinda welcome lol

yeah, usually looking for +10 5 aps sins, then a BM as HF slave. Even better when running 3 man and BM is an alt of one the 2 sins. No one really cares about the BM damage - I must admit it can be a factor - ppl care more about HF every time it gets out of cooldown.

6) Lunar
Kinda a mix of FCC and TT

no one does it, not even for BH

So in general I can say:

BM not rly that expensive. U don't rly need high refine to solo stuff and the gear is cheaper in general. (Don't need Rank 8, Deicide Claws are cheap compard to some Decent Daggers)
Aswell its easier to farm ur gear in the beginning. Its easier for a BM to find a Nirvana squad with lower aps as for a sin. IMO !
(If u got other experience go ahead tell us but plz no QQ)

Sin is kinda more expensive but once u got a good gear its rly easy to get the rest of ur stuff done. U will easy get higher refines, aswell its easier to gear a new Character of ur choice.

True, sin might be a bit more expensive than BM to get to 5 aps - I would say at current prices something in the 60 mil ballpark more, but you make the efort once and end up with a much better suited char for anything endgame (except RB and TW).

Make a 5.0 BM then make a Sage sin on another account with sage BP