Def or HP?

OOLottieOo - Lost City · December 2011

hi, I'm fighting a normal mob named Taurox Enthusiast but it only seems to hit me with physical when i get close to it it is like it uses a magic attack when i am at a distance is it a magic attack? and it's annoying because i keep dying when 3 or more attack me at once so i was thinking would it be better to embed p.def? or m.def? if they use magic because I'm unsure if they do lol and is def better than hp for pve? atm I'm using full hp embeds and thinking about changing them for def of magic or physical.
Thanks!

CRYSTY_III - Sanctuary · December 2011

similar question would be : "Attack gem or Accuracy in weapon ?" (the only difference is that you get a bonus attack with EACH hit from the attack gem)

Ppl are used to do what they see on/at others but not always is the best option if they copy.

Well,let's say your HP gem gives you 20 HP points (BONUS AVAILABLE ONLY FOR 1st HIT taken : IF the 1st hit is higher than 20 , which it is in PvE, if you kill mobs close to your lvl,unless you receive a MISS one, on this case,then the bonus (to be extracted) counts for the next hit) .A physical defense would protect you from ,let's say, -5 hp damage / EACH HIT you receive.So if you'll receive more hits , a defense gem will protect you better( if the mob will hit you more than 4 times).
This protection works "better" if another mob respawned near you and you got agroed and
you need/want to continue the fight or you encounter "Increased Life" mobs.
Mobs hits very hard in PWI, even with hundreds of HP taking from you and a gem +20 hp wont help you to much if you find strong mobs.
PWI doesnt have only 1 mob type , they have physical ,magical, or aoe physical or magical aoe bosses diversity.
I don't use HP gems , i prefer defense gems but thats my choice .If i have an arcane character then i compensate the missing physical a bit with some phys def gems, if i have a light armor character i add physical and magical defense gems.Same thing applies to jewelry/belt gear stats.

But that;s my suggestion , feel free to wait/read/listen more advices and apply what you think its best for you.

Edit : oh yes, SoulRequiem is right, i forgot about refining , you get good enought hp if you refine your gear (at 65) to +2 all the parts.Get bonus from the refining jewelry too.
If you still want to have some HP gems then i suggest you to have only 1 gear piece with hp gems (the headgear or robe)

SoulRequiem - Sanctuary · December 2011

Short Answer:Have both Elemental and Physical ornaments to switch based on mobs you face.
Those you mentioned use magic at long range,and since you're Psychic I assume you don't want to get under their nose to being physically hit right?

Ornaments doesn't give Hp,so in this cave obviously Elemental Ornaments.

For Hp/Defence part the most efficient solution seems to me a mix of the two(Some say you get enough Hp with refines so shards just garnets).

seraphoxy · December 2011

You can get HP from refines... and buffs only give 40% HP versus a 100% boost to defense. Put in defense shards and refine the heck out of it
b:bye

DemansPsy - Lost City · December 2011

CRYSTY_III - Sanctuary wrote: »

similar question would be : "Attack gem or Accuracy in weapon ?" (the only difference is that you get a bonus attack with EACH hit)

Ppl are used to do what they see on/at others but not always is the best option if they copy.

Well,let's say your HP gem gives you 20 HP points (BONUS AVAILABLE ONLY FOR 1st HIT taken) .A physical defense would protect you from ,let's say, -5 hp damage / EACH HIT you receive.So if you'll receive more hits , a defense gem will protect you better( if the mob will hit you more than 4 times).
This protection works "better" if another mob respawned near you and you got agroed and
you need/want to continue the fight or you encounter "Increased Life" mobs.
Mobs hits very hard in PWI, even with hundreds of HP taking from you and a gem +20 hp wont help you to much if you find strong mobs.
PWI doesnt have only 1 mob type , they have physical ,magical, or aoe physical or magical aoe bosses diversity.
I don't use HP gems , i prefer defense gems but thats my choice .If i have an arcane character then i compensate the missing physical a bit with some phys def gems, if i have a light armor character i add physical and magical defense gems.Same thing applies to jewelry/belt gear stats.

But that;s my suggestion , feel free to wait/read/listen more advices and apply what you think its best for you.

Edit : oh yes, SoulRequiem is right, i forgot about refining , you get good enought hp if you refine your gear (at 65) to +2 all the parts.Get bonus from the refining jewelry too.
If you still want to have some HP gems then i suggest you to have only 1 gear piece with hp gems (the headgear or robe)

Thing is about def shards is they only protect you from one type of attack, at low levels then ya def shards isn't too bad, at higher lv when mobs start using both phy and mag attacks, id go with hp shards since they help w/ both types, and they only count for the first hit if you're not healing, if your hp is too low and your using a heavy healing pot, then most of that pot's effect is being wasted as soon as you hit your max hp which even at higher levels does tend to happen often, and again, at higher levels you also run into the diminishing returns thing for p/m def hell at about 3k p def, takes like 300 more points for 1% more damage reduction or you can get 300 more hp which would probably increase your hp pool by 5+% (for average Arcane user), and along with the fact you have healing spells, pots, charms, etc, makes hp shards far more useful(only thing better than hp shards being josd which protect you from a a guaranteed 2%(long as you haven't reached the max of 50 def lv above your opponents att level) from BOTH magic and physical attacks, but unless you're a CSer, merchant or no -lifer that's gonna be out of your reach) that is my view on it anyway.

Bellarie - Raging Tide · December 2011

CRYSTY_III - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well,let's say your HP gem gives you 20 HP points (BONUS AVAILABLE ONLY FOR 1st HIT taken)

Wait, what? Are you saying that I lose my +40 HP bonus after I take a hit, even if the hit is 1 damage? I'm not sure I understand how HP gems work exactly, I thought they just add the listed amount to max HP?

Regenbogen - Lost City · December 2011

just take on mobs 1on1 and also learn to retreat or get cs equiptment and a charm...b:bye

Bellarie - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wait, what? Are you saying that I lose my +40 HP bonus after I take a hit, even if the hit is 1 damage? I'm not sure I understand how HP gems work exactly, I thought they just add the listed amount to max HP?

more hp become more effective with higher defences...
with low defence extra hp is as usefull as a raindrop in hell.b:kiss

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · December 2011

Def shards VS HP shards. Typically, the def you gain from low level def shards makes them totally not worth it, unless you shard exclusively with one kind of shard, and you have nothing but 4 socket gear available. That does cost a lot of coins. Then, you end up with moderate defenses and low HP. So, instead of taking 2.75k damage, and having 5k HP, you'd take 2.55k damage, and have 5k hp (for example, just pulling some random numbers out of the air). Thus, you'd be a two shot for whatever it was with or without the def shards.

Now if you were to use HP shards, you'd take the same damage, 2.75k, but you'd have more HP, say, 6.5k. So, instead of being a 2 shot, you take two hits and have a sliver of life left.

This is the basic idea behind def shards vs HP shards.

The only time you can really go with def shards is if you already have a lot of HP, and losing a few HP from not sharding Cits won't drop you into a oneshot zone for HP. If, say, all Def Shards did more in the way of actual +Def, this might be different, but... You aren't gonna see many 90 BM's running around with 35k PDef.

When you get to the point of Vit Shards vs Citrine Gems, you have to remember that +10 Vit in a given socket will give you more HP typically than a Citrine Gem would, AND, that Vit will increase your MDef and PDef ever so slightly. This applies to Barb, BM, Seeker, Archer, and Sin. Mystic, Psy, Cleric, Wiz, and Veno get more out of a Citrine Gem than a Vit gem.

So, a Barb with 200 Vit points actually has better Mdef with MDef ornaments than a level 80 Sin would with Pdef ornaments, depending on the gear (well, my barb does, vs my Sin at 80; My Barb has 16,500 HP at 80 and my Sin had 8,500 HP buffed at 80, my BM had 10k HP buffed at 80 and needed to use Marrow Magical to get the same MDef as Barb does, which resulted in... About the same PDef as my Sin had at 80. Go figure).

When considering Garnet vs Ambers in weapon, you have to look at overall Accuracy. My Barb has less accuracy than MP. b:surrender But, I switched to two Misty forest rings and... I still have less accuracy than MP. Accuracy on a Barb is a tricky issue, if you use Flesh Ream, it has a 100% chance to hit so forget accuracy and just stick with Garnets. If you are going to be PKing, then Accuracy becomes a huge issue. Two +50% accuracy rings are gonna not help much, and putting an Amber in your weapon is a drop of water in the Ocean. You could just use FR, for 100% accuracy, or you could put some points into dex... Or you could go nuke and hope for a oneshot on each hit. Swing and miss a lot, but when it hits, it's game over. that requires a lower vit, higher str, low Dex build.

BM's should have enough accuracy if they are a Fist/Axe build to not bother with Ambers.

If you have an Archer and are missing your target, then you need to reroll as something else.

laloner · December 2011

When it comes to shards people want to know the damage absorbing power of a defense shard. The equation for this is termed Effective Health which at first I found confusing. Once I figured out that Effective Health mean how much damage the shard would absorb it all became clear.

Except I think instead of using max HP in the effective health equation you should use the maximum survivable attack.

Bellarie - Raging Tide · December 2011

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

just take on mobs 1on1 and also learn to retreat or get cs equiptment and a charm...b:bye

more hp become more effective with higher defences...
with low defence extra hp is as usefull as a raindrop in hell.b:kiss

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about defense, my confusion comes from people saying that the HP bonus from a citrine is only good for the first hit taken. Allow me to explain:

Starting HP - 4K + 150(Stone of Gaea) = 4150/4150 HP
After taking 70 damage - 4K/4K HP
This is what the above wording in bold make it sound like, the same kind of effect as a mag/phy defense charm, only for HP.

Starting HP - 4K + 150(Stone of Gaea) = 4150/4150 HP
After taking 70 damage - 4080/4150 HP
This is how I always figured the HP bonus of a shard worked.

Sir_Puma - Raging Tide · December 2011

It really all depends on your weaknesses..

If you are a mage class, phys def shards will help for what gets close to you and some random long range physical attacks.

HP is harder to get up on a pure mage, so of course, when u start putting flawlesses and up in your stuff (let's say it's 3 sockets), the extra 120 hp will be nice.

Now, we all know mage classes get way up in magic def so , more or less like others mentionned, for a mage, phys def neck and belt is more sought after then magic resist one.

I never really understood why the tt99 pieces for mage give magic resists and those for melee give phys def. Woudn't a mage be better end-game in a belt with something like : Phys def 350, channeling -6%, magic and hp + ?

I mean really, my gf has a clerc in full tt99 and can get over 12 000 magic def, at that point, a belt giving 400 doesn't really make that much of a difference..

As BM, I can have easy 25 000 phys def, did I shard my stuff with garnets ? Nope.. In citrines..

Mages have it harder versus physical mobs, I will agree. But I think ur survavibilty factor will come from wearing phys def ornaments and maybe 1 piece with high garnets. Rest should be citrines.

It's also why i see many mages (that don't have Lunar Cape for some reason..) wear a Cape of Elite Leather instead of a Tauren Chieftan one..

250 or so mag def for a mage is mehh.. 250 phys def though, shows

There are a few ornaments that give a somewhat mix of both worlds that work good till u get some high end stuff. Equine talisman and Demon slaughter belt (or oht one) both give magic def, physical def and hp.

Of course, some people will say : but i want my channeling !! yeah ok, i admit, but do you prefer casting faster or living longer ? Get channeling on rings/sleeves/wep and some rank gear has some if u go for that.

I would say BM's are the jack of all trades in the resist departement. We even have genie specific moves (one is for barbs as well) to help us almost negate magic atks or just boost it way up. (True Emptyness to cut damage by A LOT when maxed and Balance used after Golden Bell and altar physical). I would say that 80% of the Bm's i see are HP sharded (Others are more oriented towards atk and def shards but thats another story)

Long text but anyway, hope this helped you see better...

CRYSTY_III - Sanctuary · December 2011

Bellarie - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wait, what? Are you saying that I lose my +40 HP bonus after I take a hit, even if the hit is 1 damage? I'm not sure I understand how HP gems work exactly, I thought they just add the listed amount to max HP?

Nop, ofc you wont lose the 20HP bonus if you get a 1HP damage.
You will lose those 20HP bonus ONLY if the hit is higher than (or it takes more than) 20 HP.

If you receive first hit 228 HP Damage then consider/think that the 20 HP BONUS from gem is gone.

You wont receive 1 HP damage if you kill mobs close to your lvl , even if you are tank character . 1 HP damage you'll receive it if you kill mobs with 50 lvls below your lvl , or maybe lower if you PvE.

But it's same thing on pvp too about hp gem.

Srry for confusion , i;ll edit my post to add this note.

And yes it add to the maximum HP amount once you equiped that gear with HP gems and ofc FIRST thing which will be gone(slowly not all in same time or in 1st hit) from your total HP will be the HP bonus during a long fight, mob or pvp/duel

Things will change in better if you have a VIT +10 stone end game gem. A very rare gem and very expensive (more expensive than the White House lol)
2 VIT +10 stones means vit +20 which means that the 20 points to Vitality will get you a bonus +1 (not sure) to the HP recovery (same as 20 DEX gives you 1% crit chance) and the HP amount too with around 200-240 HP.

Off Topic note :I wish PWI had more Attribute gems variety, same as VIT,different lvls too but with STR,DEX,MAGIC to add 1 ,or 2,or 3,or 4...points to gear , even a lower lvl could compensate/get their missing 1 STR or MAGIC to be able to equip their weapon or so,without to search on auction for a (****) gear with that attribute point.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · December 2011

There's a graph somewhere showing the relative effectiveness of HP versus defence. Ah:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=342691
There we go.

{
Edit: Sneeeaky! You edited it

It's right now - much as I'd love 20vit to give 2k hp

You missed a zero off that HP bonus there; Each point of vit is worth around 10HP. (It varies by class, I know *I* get 12 per vit, and tanky classes get more, but I don't remember off the top of my head how much)
}

CRYSTY_III - Sanctuary · December 2011

@Vitenka

b:chuckle yes srry, and ty b:victory

While i was bringing my coffee from kitchen ,ive been thinking like...hmm only 20 ?? something is wrong here b:laugh .. i must reedit lol..

Edit : and ty very much for the link , really helpful, i hate math formulas with variables lol but ill look into it

And yes , Vitality depends on classes .Also it was modified with the newer patches since 2008.
I know it because an archer could get +10 HP to 1 vit spent in 2008 and now gets +12 HP in 2011.Not sure if its lvl-related .

Rickioo - Archosaur · December 2011

seraphoxy wrote: »

You can get HP from refines... and buffs only give 40% HP versus a 100% boost to defense. Put in defense shards and refine the heck out of it
b:bye

I LOL'd

it looks like the OP is a sin but i say hp is a good thing for you, you just need to work on your play tactics heres a idea use a bow to lure away other mobs so you dont get ganged or use a zeal geine with the earthflame skill all this insanly long answers might be a bit much for you since your a new player i think your dieing because of the way your playing and not because your hp or def

Erryne - Sanctuary · December 2011

OP is a psy. Why she go in melee range, I has no idea, except if they spawned next to her or holy pathed away from a different mob(s).

Since you appear to be lv66, learn to use psychic will and earth vector on top of your previous skills. Spark management is key for a decent psychic, I rarely spark up myself.

I know myself my old lv85 gear were sharded with flawless garnet and was doing ok/good in gamma. I'm currently mostly citrine now in my 90 though, but got pdef add from gears to make up. Still somewhat unsure on my final gear's shard, but I'm leaning toward immac garnet.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · December 2011

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There's a graph somewhere showing the relative effectiveness of HP versus defence. Ah:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=342691
There we go.

{
Edit: Sneeeaky! You edited it It's right now - much as I'd love 20vit to give 2k hp

You missed a zero off that HP bonus there; Each point of vit is worth around 10HP. (It varies by class, I know *I* get 12 per vit, and tanky classes get more, but I don't remember off the top of my head how much)
}

Venos/Archers(?) get 12.
Wizards/Psychics/Mystics(not sure) get 10
Barbs get 17
BMs and Seekers get 15.

I don't know what assassins get.

Bashmaster - Raging Tide · December 2011

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary wrote: »

Venos/Archers(?) get 12.
Wizards/Psychics/Mystics(not sure) get 10
Barbs get 17
BMs and Seekers get 15.

I don't know what assassins get.

barbs get 18... sins get 12 and i do believe venos get 14 not 12

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2011

OOLottieOo - Lost City wrote: »

hi, I'm fighting a normal mob named Taurox Enthusiast but it only seems to hit me with physical when i get close to it it is like it uses a magic attack when i am at a distance is it a magic attack? and it's annoying because i keep dying when 3 or more attack me at once so i was thinking would it be better to embed p.def? or m.def? if they use magic because I'm unsure if they do lol and is def better than hp for pve? atm I'm using full hp embeds and thinking about changing them for def of magic or physical.
Thanks!

nice a grinder.
So assuming your using arcane armour as a psy, the typical gear is that + physical defense ornaments since arcane provides more than enough magic resist..... As for HP and the extra physical defense u need, well you know both can be obtain with shards, but only one can be obtained with another method which is refining.
for armour:
HP - refining, shards
Pdef - shards

but uh... to make it super simple. Aim to make your pdef catch up to your mag def, and your HP at least around half of your pdef >.> how you go about doing it is your choice.

at your level you might also want to try out 1 piece of HA armour. This is the poormans method of compensating HP/pdefense that was used in the old days but its effective.

You basically get the lowest magic resist gear and swap that in for an 3 star HA gear with higher pdef since you, as a mag class are able to afford loosing a 'little' bit of magic resist.
ex)
☆☆Boots of the Cosmos Lv66
Physical Defense +62
Magic defence +555
Str required 37
Refine HP start +17, 34, 51

VS

☆☆☆Mithril Greaves Lv 18
Physical Defense +195
Magic defence +85
Str required 39
Refine HP start +18, 36, 54

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide · December 2011

Erryne - Sanctuary wrote: »

OP is a psy. Why she go in melee range, I has no idea, except if they spawned next to her or holy pathed away from a different mob(s).

Since you appear to be lv66, learn to use psychic will and earth vector on top of your previous skills. Spark management is key for a decent psychic, I rarely spark up myself.

I know myself my old lv85 gear were sharded with flawless garnet and was doing ok/good in gamma. I'm currently mostly citrine now in my 90 though, but got pdef add from gears to make up. Still somewhat unsure on my final gear's shard, but I'm leaning toward immac garnet.

Thank you for pointing out that the OP needs to learn to play her class. On my psy i get hit by maybe 1 in 10 mobs when 1v1.

Use your skills, meele mobs - immoblize nuke knockback repeat-- phys ranged mobs immbolize nuke stun nuke repeat-- magic mobs - stun nuke nuke nuke repeat

Psys are crazy OP PvE and PvP if you die or take lots of damage 1v1 in PvE you need to learn to use your skills.

Def or HP?

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