Skill Upgrades

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  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Damn... threads can get stupid fast.
  • Noveriot - Heavens Tear
    Noveriot - Heavens Tear Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Damn... threads can get stupid fast.

    qft..
  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    An addendum to my earlier post:

    The cooldowns on Blessing of the Condor and Awaken should be decreased to around one minute or so. If you think this is OP we should not be comparing it to the skills of the old classes since all the old classes have to be updated. Compare this proposition to the cooldowns on Assassin Inner Harmony and Shadow Escape which have similar functions to the two archer skills under scrutiny.
  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Aldryami - Sanctuary wrote: »
    An addendum to my earlier post:

    The cooldowns on Blessing of the Condor and Awaken should be decreased to around one minute or so. If you think this is OP we should not be comparing it to the skills of the old classes since all the old classes have to be updated. Compare this proposition to the cooldowns on Assassin Inner Harmony and Shadow Escape which have similar functions to the two archer skills under scrutiny.

    1 minute is too OP for Awaken. I'd be happy with it being 5 minutes, which I think is fair.

    I'm okay with condor cooldown, but the effect should last longer
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  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Inner Harmony gives assassins 2 sparks every 60 seconds. Thats one spark per 30 seconds. so how would it be OP for Awaken to give archers 3 sparks every (30 x 3) 90 seconds?

    Shadow Escape provides assassins with (very powerful) immunity every 90 seconds. So how would it be OP for Blessing of the Condor to provide archers with (slighty sucky) "immunity" every 60 or 90 seconds.

    I'm convinced people are stuck in the "old game" mind set.

    If the OP classes stay then its time to make everything else awesome too.
  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Aldryami - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Inner Harmony gives assassins 2 sparks every 60 seconds. Thats one spark per 30 seconds. so how would it be OP for Awaken to give archers 3 sparks every (30 x 3) 90 seconds?

    Shadow Escape provides assassins with (very powerful) immunity every 90 seconds. So how would it be OP for Blessing of the Condor to provide archers with (slighty sucky) "immunity" every 60 or 90 seconds.

    I'm convinced people are stuck in the "old game" mind set.

    If the OP classes stay then its time to make everything else awesome too.

    It's not about the spark/min. It's about how many sparks you're getting at once. I'm 100% sure my cloud eruption gains chi faster than a sin using Inner Harmony as fast as possible, but Inner Harmony is still the better skill.

    TIME is as much a factor as the number of sparks you're getting.
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  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Yea and in my proposition archers and assassins both get 6 sparks every 120 seconds.

    But I see what you mean. The Assassin can only stack 3 sparks with this skill every 120 seconds (though sins, of course have other ways of getting sparks fast). So, if we ignore the sins many other methods of chi-generation, the correct cooldown for Awaken would be 120 seconds.

    Also, in my proposition both classes get their immunity skill (the assassin one far superior) in a similair time-frame.



    Another thing I was thinking is how nice it would be if the update fixed evasion to make it worthwhile. Though the downside is that sins would also benefit from this.


    I know my thoughts are probably in the realms of fantasy, but its my wish list :) If a fair proportion of these ideas were realized I would re-install.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I'm 100% sure my cloud eruption gains chi faster than a sin using Inner Harmony as fast as possible, but Inner Harmony is still the better skill.

    You have a genie with 167 magic?
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    I guess what she's doing is spamming lvl 1 CE...which would need better than 4/s to match Inner Harmony...

    Sins are just stupidly OP, but it's not like a full sparked sin is going to make a much greater impact in mass PvP than a no-chi sin (partly because they get chi very quickly anyway). The difference I guess has to come from the class' skills. This is probably why you wouldn't give wizards any such chi gaining skills either. Full sparks on an archer can be pretty dangerous as it allows you to set up a good IG barrage.
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  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    str/mag combo?

    anyways who the **** cares. they will come out w/ w/e ridiculously stupid idea anyways.

    squad buff:
    all attacks gain the power of metal! adds +500 metal damage to each attack, costs 3 mirages, does not stack w/ seeker buffs/runes!

    im more curious about new gears, OP, super OP, similar, worse, etc hard to imagine anything much more then r9... i mean i guess that can have set bonus + 90 atk AND def level or like +120 atk level....

    or my GoF Spirit Blackhole Purify bow <3
  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I guess what she's doing is spamming lvl 1 CE...which would need better than 4/s to match Inner Harmony...

    Sins are just stupidly OP, but it's not like a full sparked sin is going to make a much greater impact in mass PvP than a no-chi sin (partly because they get chi very quickly anyway). The difference I guess has to come from the class' skills. This is probably why you wouldn't give wizards any such chi gaining skills either. Full sparks on an archer can be pretty dangerous as it allows you to set up a good IG barrage.

    Yea but mass pvp only happens once a week.

    For the rest of the time the sins triple sparked, wolf emblemmed powerdash is pretty strong.

    Oh and that reminds me, sins are masters of crit as well as masters of chi.

    Anyway, to reiterate the old skills are handicapped by weakness and outdated cooldowns. Revamp please ^^


    EDIT: lol Ruvil I think you are probably right. In respect to gear maybe they will bring out a ring that ignores all defense and attack levels. :)
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    str/mag combo?

    There is no way to add str to a genie to get more chi / sec using cloud erupt. Inner harmony is like spamming cloud erupt every 30 seconds which takes 167 magic (4.33 regen). Inner harmony is actually better since you can get 2 sparks at once (like having 260 energy genie).

    Chi Siphon is a lot closer to matching a sin though but is kinda annoying to use efficiently.
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  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There is no way to add str to a genie to get more chi / sec using cloud erupt. Inner harmony is like spamming cloud erupt every 30 seconds which takes 167 magic (4.33 regen). Inner harmony is actually better since you can get 2 sparks at once (like having 260 energy genie).

    Chi Siphon is a lot closer to matching a sin though but is kinda annoying to use efficiently.

    No, you are right. My CE doesn't gain chi faster than inner harmony. My mistake was I "remembered" the cooldown on inner harmony to be longer than it actually is....
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  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    So what do you all think of the upcoming update for archers?

    No sign of old skills (cooldown etc) being updated.

    Some of the new skills look ok.

    But I dont think they balance things much.
  • Angelstealth - Harshlands
    Angelstealth - Harshlands Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    for all knockback skills to work.
  • Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver
    Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver Posts: 272 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    ALL I WANT IS BP b:cry b:cry b:cry
    lvl101 Legit archer...not 1 hyper used or multi-FC
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    Almost all the skills I see are quite close to my suggestions earlier in this thread. Too bad they are all the least creative ideas.


    I really don't like soulforce. Just another metric to put cash shoppers ahead.
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    Seems interesting, being based upon Soulforce looks like it will suck though. At least it will provide more incentive for noobish players to actually refine their gear on PvE servers to make squadding randoms a bit easier (I swear if I get another 9x 3* +2 vit cleric for Warsong/Aba/Nirvy Imma kill myself lol).

    Stealth seems like it will have some uses if used defensively or if you can use it as an escape tactic (Shame EGs **** that though).

    AoE seal? Obviously helpful. Sunset Arrow will have its uses, stacked with STA, and we become pretty anti-barb.

    For those that have yet to see the new skills current translations by Korren

    I'm abit worried about how broken looking some of the other classes skills look so far (Psychic, Seeker, I might actually have to worry about potential death from BMs now), but we will see how it plays out. Maybe we will see more casters again...
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    If those skills are even remotely accurate... and easily obtainable. Then even fully refined r9 archers is going to have trouble with any other average refined class. On the flip side... a lot of the skills seems to require some sort of timing element to pull off efficiently... which a lot of the new people can't seem to grasp.

    EDIT: And WTF is with the 50 mp/second... my 2k mp pool can't take an abuse like that. Guess every archer who is worth anything will be sporting an mp charm now.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

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  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If those skills are even remotely accurate... and easily obtainable. Then even fully refined r9 archers is going to have trouble with any other average refined class. On the flip side... a lot of the skills seems to require some sort of timing element to pull off efficiently... which a lot of the new people can't seem to grasp.

    EDIT: And WTF is with the 50 mp/second... my 2k mp pool can't take an abuse like that. Guess every archer who is worth anything will be sporting an mp charm now.

    I don't think stealth will be useful without the ability to match Assassins stealth level.

    Most PK involves assassins, and in TW you'll have a bunch of seekers with a third eye.



    I think the left/right jump is the most useful skill an archer will get in the update. I just hope its cooldown isn't absurd.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    angellicdeity wrote: »
    I don't think stealth will be useful without the ability to match Assassins stealth level.

    Most PK involves assassins, and in TW you'll have a bunch of seekers with a third eye.



    I think the left/right jump is the most useful skill an archer will get in the update. I just hope its cooldown isn't absurd.

    Thats where are you wrong. Here in the clouds... the sins with balls to attack me is in the minority. Factor out guildies and friendlies... I am looking at sin in the single digit that is even a real threat to me. I never worry about sins in TW... and the chance of me running in to any 1 of those unfriendly sin that can actually do damage to me is essentially zero outside of tw (considering the amount of time i spent in game).

    That being said... sin's new skills is kinda **** in terms of improving their 1v1 pk abilities.

    Resurrection burial: curse your target, your target will absorb 15%-35%(depends on ur SF) damage you take from others for 10sec, effect doesnt work if your target attack u.
    - doesn't work on target... i can see it being used on cata pullers... but useless in 1v1.

    solar eclipse: AOE stealth, yo, 12meters , max 5seconds.
    - ok... so they can have another stealth skill... not like the 2 they already have isn't enough.

    investigate: make u able to check other players' inventory.
    - great... now they know i carry every single apoc available, all my gears are bounded... and two stacks of angels. guess that can be useful... LOL.

    Lose a Thousand Pieces of Gold (literal translation, meaning giving up wealth): debuff your target, make him drop coins upon death. the amount of coins depends on your target's lvl.(. lol, my mage 105..)
    - lol... like i am worried about losing coins.

    Toxic dagger: 10 meters frontal aoe, base dmg + 9300 poison dmg over 30sec.
    - if thats max level... i am looking at 20k-ish wood damage. so like 5k pvp wood damage over 30 seconds... more of a joke if you ask me.

    Yan Fu Resurrection burial: curse your target, your target will absorb 20%-60%(depends on ur SF) damage you take from others for 15sec, effect doesnt work if your target attack u.
    - again... doesn't work 1v1... could be useful on cata pullers or massive pvp.

    so essentially... me as an archer is actually getting some useful skills to use on sins... while they are getting essentially nothing on 1v1 pvp.

    lightening strike: attack range+6, crit rate of next 4-8 hits(SF) incrased by 15%, 20sec.
    - could see that being useful for distance control and more crit. considering most top grade archers are +12 r9... we should be getting increase crit from next 8 hits.

    Left leap / Right leap:20meters.
    - easy counter to sin's tp.

    Silence: Stealth! 50mp/sec, moving, using Wings of Grace, or sparking will kick u out of stealth.
    - depending on detection... guess this could be used as an escape. kinda make me regret that i didn't dragon glitch.

    Sunset arrow: attack target and all enemies 8meters around, base+250% weapon + 1500 dmg, decrease their hp recovery by 20% , pot 30%, increase charm cooldown by 3sec.
    - sounds useful in any type of pvp. like the 250% weap dmg better then the 1.5k (i mean wtf is this).

    BrightShadow arrow: seal all targets in a 25meters line for 3sec, deal base+100%weapon + 3200dmg.
    - more of just a single sealing skills. at least it would depend on the degree (of angle) of effect... considering i cant be sure when is the last time i got more then 1 people standing in an absolute straight line.

    Tian yu lightening strike: attack range+6, crit rate of next 5-9 hits(SF) incrased by 25%, 30sec.
    - again... useful considering more of us are +12 r9... so we should be getting the upper end of the effect.



    after my skills break down... i have to say i am more considered with other classes' control/stat effect skills... then anything the sin has.


    EDIT: I am sure all the archers know the walkback glitch that can add 1-2 meters to barrage. Makes me wonder if the +range skills can perma extend barrage's range. Although I don't think its very promising, considering my own barrage was stopped many times by mystic's knockback skill.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

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  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    The leaps will be pretty useless in regards to the big picture if they aren't as easily manipulated as BM leaps. Thing is, with holy path and the fact archers should fight in the air I don't see leaps making a huge change to the playstyle of an archer.
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    The leaps will be pretty useless in regards to the big picture if they aren't as easily manipulated as BM leaps. Thing is, with holy path and the fact archers should fight in the air I don't see leaps making a huge change to the playstyle of an archer.

    Leaps will help out a little bit with getting some space if on the ground vs Sins/BMs.

    Barbs are already pretty kitable. If the cooldown is longish, maybe we will have to save our leaps for after a BM pulls us in or teleports to us with their new 1337 control skills lol.

    I'm a bit interested in the chi costs on these skills. Have a feeling the AoE Seal is going to be 2 sparks. Leap will probably use chi as well...
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  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    I like leaps because if u are trapped in a freeze, a leap can save you from taking some damage. I would have appreciated a better passive speed buff too <.>
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    The leaps will be pretty useless in regards to the big picture if they aren't as easily manipulated as BM leaps. Thing is, with holy path and the fact archers should fight in the air I don't see leaps making a huge change to the playstyle of an archer.

    It does quite a bit. Most well geared archers don't take to the air in TW unless the person they really need to kill so happens to be flying out of range. Why do leaps help?

    Well if you see that rank 9 wizard channeling that nasty BIDS and he's looking at you, its quite easy to leap and break the channeling saving the people around you from receiving a hefty 10K+.

    If you have an archer barrage opened on you, its quite nice to be able to leap out of the area so that you don't hurt your team mates in TW. If a barrage is opened on you as an archer, you:

    1) Have the survivability to warrant opening a zhen on (Rank 9, heavy JoSD)
    2) Are around a cluster of your guildmates.


    You may be right it doesn't make a huge difference in the playstyle of an archer per-say. But as far as TW is concerned, leap is probably the best skill you have as an archer if your well geared.


    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Thats where are you wrong. Here in the clouds... the sins with balls to attack me is in the minority. Factor out guildies and friendlies... I am looking at sin in the single digit that is even a real threat to me. I never worry about sins in TW... and the chance of me running in to any 1 of those unfriendly sin that can actually do damage to me is essentially zero outside of tw (considering the amount of time i spent in game).

    You brought up TW, where the ability to leap is probably the best thing you can do for your team as a rank 9 archer. Again when people drop AOE's, having leap can let you break the channel or keep your team mates alive by leaping away from the people around you while you get zhened on.

    I've watched several replays of old TW's I participated in. Having leap would have saved hundreds from certain death when people like QuFeng, and Yoshiki, decide to drop their zhens on me.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Leaps will help out a little bit with getting some space if on the ground vs Sins/BMs.

    Barbs are already pretty kitable. If the cooldown is longish, maybe we will have to save our leaps for after a BM pulls us in or teleports to us with their new 1337 control skills lol.

    I'm a bit interested in the chi costs on these skills. Have a feeling the AoE Seal is going to be 2 sparks. Leap will probably use chi as well...

    Fighting a BM, sin or barb on the ground one on one is the stupidest thing you can do as an archer. In the air we already have pretty much all we need to kite effectively this will only really help against paralyze, aka pretty useless in regards to the big picture.
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I like leaps because if u are trapped in a freeze, a leap can save you from taking some damage. I would have appreciated a better passive speed buff too <.>

    For sure, I'm not saying leaps are bad it's just it won't make big changes to the archer playstyle.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    It does quite a bit. Most well geared archers don't take to the air in TW unless the person they really need to kill so happens to be flying out of range. Why do leaps help?

    Well if you see that rank 9 wizard channeling that nasty BIDS and he's looking at you, its quite easy to leap and break the channeling saving the people around you from receiving a hefty 10K+.

    If you have an archer barrage opened on you, its quite nice to be able to leap out of the area so that you don't hurt your team mates in TW. If a barrage is opened on you as an archer, you:

    1) Have the survivability to warrant opening a zhen on (Rank 9, heavy JoSD)
    2) Are around a cluster of your guildmates.


    You may be right it doesn't make a huge difference in the playstyle of an archer per-say. But as far as TW is concerned, leap is probably the best skill you have as an archer if your well geared.
    Sure leaps are helpful to cancel ultis being casted, that's assuming people target archers when dropping one. If you are being targeted from max range all it takes is a step back to cancel casting. I guess if you are with a pack of guildies and aren't max range and you are being targeted then leaps would help. Too bad as an archer you should never be near other guildies per se. I just don't see this actually changing the play style that much. It has it's advantages but it doesn't change the archer mindset.


    I also want to point out another thing about our leaps. If they are tricky to manipulate to be able to leap forwards and backwards they will be almost useless against casters in pvp (not tw). If you are 30m from your enemy and you simply side leap you will only be 36m away from them. You need to be >22m away from your enemy to cancel a 30m range skill. Smart casters know to close the gap on archers and even more so now.

    Ultimately, the usefulness of leaps will be determined on how they are implemented but I don't see them changing much about archers unless they are no chi, not buggy and have a really short cooldown.
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Sure leaps are helpful to cancel ultis being casted, that's assuming people target archers when dropping one. If you are being targeted from max range all it takes is a step back to cancel casting. I guess if you are with a pack of guildies and aren't max range and you are being targeted then leaps would help. Too bad as an archer you should never be near other guildies per se. I just don't see this actually changing the play style that much. It has it's advantages but it doesn't change the archer mindset.


    I also want to point out another thing about our leaps. If they are tricky to manipulate to be able to leap forwards and backwards they will be almost useless against casters in pvp (not tw). If you are 30m from your enemy and you simply side leap you will only be 36m away from them. You need to be >22m away from your enemy to cancel a 30m range skill. Smart casters know to close the gap on archers and even more so now.

    Ultimately, the usefulness of leaps will be determined on how they are implemented but I don't see them changing much about archers unless they are no chi, not buggy and have a really short cooldown.

    If you're at the max range of their skill their skill only casts within a radius - not a square. So a side leap will do the trick. It is sufficient enough. You dont need to be 22 meters away. By your own admission if you stepped back you would do the same trick. If they're already attempting to cast, they cant cast a distance shrink.



    Furthermore, you can keep saying that as an archer you'll never be beside anyone, yet that isn't the case 60% of the time in TW - especially with all the Rank 9 floating about. Everyone is just that much harder to kill now days, and alot more people need to be focused down.

    There is only soo far you can move up the left and right side of a lane before your knee-deep in enemy lines such that you're way too close to the other team.


    In fact, the people you're most likely to be close to are:

    1) Clerics
    2) Archers
    3) Mages
    4) Psychics

    They are all ranged Damage Dealers and they are classes that too go onto the left and right side of lanes.


    Many AOES range from 8-12 meters which sounds small on paper until you realize it covers over 452 square meters. A lot more people are in the range of an AOE dropped on you as an archer than you care to admit. Especially true when you're fighting at any chokepoint with towers and binding points.


    Many new TW guilds underestimate the area Barrage of Arrows covers on the crystal and left/right towers. I remember seeing lots of well geared people think they could run through the little sliver on in-between the tower and crystal being covered by 2 barrages only to be greeted by over 12K damage because of lag. Barrage of Arrows and Mage BIDS cover the same surface area.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    The stealth skill better damn well give me two sparks when I use it.
  • OIdpop - Heavens Tear
    OIdpop - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    to be honest they should make the archer simular to the bm,s different masteries.

    slingshot should have its own skills and mastery.

    crossbow should have its own skill and mastery.

    would make it much interesting to use those 2 weapons more than just a bow all the time.

    but noooo its bow mastery for all of them..thats like getting a drivers lisence and being able to drive a semi truck or fly a fighter jet.
    This game is like washing hair with shampoo... Rinse and repeat if desired.
    Proud owner of many mains.101 bm,101 seeker,101 demon sin,100 sage sin,101 archer,101 barb,100 cleric,100 wiz( first toon since sept 08 finally made it in 2013)newly added mystic 100 HA,72 psy.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited December 2011
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    angellicdeity wrote: »
    If you're at the max range of their skill their skill only casts within a radius - not a square. So a side leap will do the trick. It is sufficient enough. You dont need to be 22 meters away. By your own admission if you stepped back you would do the same trick. If they're already attempting to cast, they cant cast a distance shrink.
    It's basic trig. If you are 30m away from your target and leap left or right 20m you are now sqrt(20^2 + 30^2) = 36m away. You will cancel casting at max range but like I said, good players won't fight an archer at their max range. If the caster is less than 23m away from you a side leap won't cancel a 30m range skill. sqrt(20^2 + 22^2) = 29.7m
    Furthermore, you can keep saying that as an archer you'll never be beside anyone, yet that isn't the case 60% of the time in TW - especially with all the Rank 9 floating about. Everyone is just that much harder to kill now days, and alot more people need to be focused down.

    There is only soo far you can move up the left and right side of a lane before your knee-deep in enemy lines such that you're way too close to the other team.


    In fact, the people you're most likely to be close to are:

    1) Clerics
    2) Archers
    3) Mages
    4) Psychics

    They are all ranged Damage Dealers and they are classes that too go onto the left and right side of lanes.
    You should never be near a cleric, give me a break. Even if TW is an 80v80 pure middle lane battle there is plenty of room as an archer to not be near people. Doing so otherwise is simply being lazy and not controlling the movement of your character. Even at the start of TW when every single player is rushing down mid I have no problem not being in a group of people while consistently on the front lines. Ever heard of a concave?
    Many AOES range from 8-12 meters which sounds small on paper until you realize it covers over 452 square meters. A lot more people are in the range of an AOE dropped on you as an archer than you care to admit. Especially true when you're fighting at any chokepoint with towers and binding points.

    Okay, now you are making TW sound like a cluster**** of people. Going by your logic, if you as an archer get zhenned on for some strange reason and leap 20m away to save your guildies why is the location you leaped to any better? If so many people stack up in TW why aren't they also stacked up a small 20m away? 50m^2 of that initial 452m^2 zhen will still be getting hit by the zhen along with anyone you leaped into. The only benefit is if you cancel the casting due to being >22m away which only means people have another reason not to drop an ulti on the weakest defensive class in the game. Then again if everyone is so stacked up why not just target the cleric instead?

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