Are DEMON barbs better than SAGE barbs in terms of "keeping the mobs aggroed longer?"

yes demon barbs are better in keeping aggro..
sage barbs are better in tanking they excel in aggro but not much than a demon barb
yet, demon barbs doesn't excel in tanking much as a sage barb does..

ratio is 1:1, yet it depends on gears.

There are multiple things that lead me to believe a demon barb tanks better. The biggest thing is sage barbs take a dps cut from going tiger form. They have to chose between taking damage, or dealing it. It's only a few % difference, really, but it plays a large roll when combined with other things.

Demon barbs tend to be statted for more DD, where people who go sage are aiming for hp/pdef. This means equal player level, equal skills, equal weapons the demon barb is more likely to get aggro.

Skill wise, demon Flesh Ream has a shorter cooldown so is more spammable. Demon Roar adds a reflect to the attack that is stronger than even demon veno bramble. More skills are geared towards increasing the barbs own DD output. Both demon True Form and Shapeshifting intensity increase dps for demons, but neither skill increases dps for sage. The same with the culti bonus of sage and demon triple spark. Sage helps their defenses, demon their dps.

Sage Titans helps the squad do more dps and works to steal aggro off a barb. Demon Poison Fang gives a better, private damage boost that it doesn't share with the squad.

Last, and this is just my observation, I think crits draw more aggro than regular dps. I've done 100k dps on my bm and not stolen aggro, and then stolen aggro on my archer doing a 65k crit. Even though the archer does less damage, the crits seem to cause more hate. Demon barbs have a higher crit rate.

For me, there is NO better tank...

remember, ration is 1:1. It depends really on gears..
Some people thought Sage is better in tanking bcoz of the stats that Sage barbs will get in Tiger Form, like Sage True Form which gives 40% max HP, Sage shapeshifting which gives extra Physical Defense, Sage Bestial Rage for chi, etc.

I have a Demon Barb. I wasn't pure vit build I restated to use claws and I enjoy it till now.
Aggro is Mine...love that movie seriously.

I'm not comparing my Barb to your Barb (YS cause u live in Phils.), it's just that you should accept the fact that there are things that Sage barbs possess that Demon barbs dont possess, and there are things that Demon barbs possess that Sage barbs dont possess.

If u know what I mean, then good.

MightyChick - Harshlands wrote: »

So you're saying that Demon barb is better in many ways that Sage barbs do?
How about tanking? I thought Sage is better in tanking than Demon doesb:cry

Well, there are multiple components that make a "tank." How you take damage is only 1 part, aggro being the other large part. There's also pulls and tanking multiple mobs vs. tanking a single boss.

This is my opinion, but sage barbs tend to be better at pulls. The higher hp/pdef is useful and the mobs die before they can lose aggro. Demon barbs tend to be better at the aggro aspect of tanking, but have slightly less hp/pdef, but endgame either culti will have more than enough pdef and hp anyways. Aps barbs have the best aggro ability, and honestly, survive the best against a single targets (bosses). Having bloodpaint and aps is like having another 1-3 clerics spam healing you with IH. Seriously, my clawbarb gets about 2.5 times the average heals per second from paint of what my level 100 rank 8 cleric would offer spamming IH). They also can invoke and still triple spark. Triple sparks give 20% hp every 15-18 seconds. Triple sparks give 3 second immunity every 15-18 seconds.

sage= most defense/hp, best puller if mobs die quick or its early endgame (under 20k hp). Better catapuller.

demon=most aggro, better in general at tanking bosses. Better at pulling later (20k+ hp). Deadly armageddons in TW.

aps=best "tanking" class for single targets (bosses). Most DD, Most survivability. Sage aps I would consider more valuable in a squad, demon aps barbs has the advantage soloing.

MightyChick - Harshlands wrote: »

So every pull that the Sage barbs does should not take away aggro from the Demon barb if the Demon barbs gets aggro from them? So sages should not be in kitty form after every pulls, since the Demon barbs tend to do the tanking. Is that it?

Question about aps barb...
can they tank? I mean why you consider aps barbs as the best tanks? They cannot use skills right except with spark and invoke? how about if the claw barb doesn't have bloodpaint buff from sins? can they tank better than a sage barb?
How about if the Sage pure vit barb has bloodpaint? can they tank better than aps barbs with no bloodpaint?

Sage barbs can tank,yes..
but they cannot be the best..
For me, Demon barbs can tank better.
Wanna know why?

Sage - more defensive, more HP than anyone (with the right stats), more HP in tiger, great titan's buff, great HP buff, Sage Arma will not let your charm tick, Sage Sunder recovers 6666 HP (greatest skill for a pure vit tank barb, IMO), etc.

Demon - more offensive, more crits, great damage endgame....etc...

Demon barbs are better. They don't require the help of their kitty form and the skills that they can use. They can put their girly axes in their backs and restat to be able to use manly claws. Demon 5aps barbs are the best. With bloodpaint and demon spark on, they are certainly undefeated 1v1 melee pvp, or tanking Delta runs fast. Some pople thought they are squishy, but they are not.

Nightsfangs - Archosaur wrote: »

When it comes to tanking an aps barb is better at keeping aggresiveness on him, so when u have to tank a single target aps is the best option, that's mostly cause aggro is dps bassed and barbs aggro control skills aren't really efficient (actually they suck :P).

When it comes to tank a lot of stuff at the same time u'r best option is to swich to tiger form Invoke+BR>roar>sunder+ToP>arma, so in that domain aps barbs are just as good because who gives a **** about 2.3k hp when you just one shotted everything.

Aps is the best option when u tank a single target, but mostly aps is an option mostly for soloing not tanking.

Aps barbs have better effects from bloodpaint, mostly because of attck rate, sage barbs attack slow and when in tiger form for 50% less dmg so bp effects aren't that noticeable.

Seriously, fixed

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its obvious that if the sage has BP and the demon one hasnt, the sage can survive better due to the heal. You cant compare 2 cultivation if the situation isnt the same.

I agreed with everything you said up to this point. Sage triple spark damage reduction is nice, especially early endgame when your don't have huge amounts of defense and take a considerable amount of damage. Removing 25% damage is huge...

... as your defense and gear grows 25% reduction matters less... and less... and less.

Demon spark + paint is the opposite. As your gear gets better and your damage improves that 25% attack speed is a direct damage multiplier and 25% more damage means 25% more heals. With claws, 25% more paint heals is can be in the 10k+ range each spark, which will way out reach what 25% damage reduction can do.


To the original poster, consider endgame. Sage will have 35-45k hp tiger, demon will have 33-43k tiger, both will have about 35k standing up, and aps will have 30-35k hp standing up and 32-38kk tiger. Not a huge difference between sage vit or demon aps. Especially considering you only need about 16k hp to tank anything in the game. So who has more pdef/hp doesn't really matter because every build has more than enough hp and pdef possible to tank. For me it comes down to aggro.

And you asked about aps and aggro. Most barbs start to have trouble with aggro when BM's/archer are around 2.5, struggle at 2.86, and give up at 3.33 or 4.0 aps because they can't pull aggro for more than a split second, if at all (for sins it's 2.5-3.33). And I'm talking good barbs. Alot of half-assed barbs have trouble even before then. When I leveled my BM and he was only 1.86 aps he used to keep aggro from 100+ barbs that were only mediocre. So lets consider aggro of a 3.33 aps barb=Barb spamming Roar, Flesh Ream, Devour, PA... 4.0 is a 20% aggro improvement, 5.0 would be a 66% aggro improvement.

One more thing, you'll hear people say you can't use skills as a barb with claws, but claws switch in a fraction of a second with no animation time. I can switch to axe and use Pentrate Armor and back to claws in the same swing. Going tiger form takes longer and thats "instant" and the weapon switch can be done in the same moment. People who say you lose anything more than 2k hp by going aps don't know their class very well, aps is just an extra skill barbs can use and some barbs are missing.

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

nice build i am one of the lucky one i need sht from the crew of aps fanatics i wish the day alredy come when they do what they did primise and remove chi gaining from 3rd sparking alredy i mean how long do we have to wait for them to fix this aps glitch everyone uses.


i welcome long two hour tt runs 30 min nv and all that sht where no aps workb:surrender.

Troll?

Aps is not a glitch. It's math and works exactly as the game intended it to, although the term "attacks per second" was somewhat added for the pwi population. The game actually uses interval between attacks, which is the inverse of aps. One is attack/sec, the other is sec/attack. Axes are 1.2 sec/attack (.83 aps is the game display number) or single handed poles are 1.1 sec/attack (.91 aps). -int reduces the sec/attack and is basic subtraction so when fists are .7 sec/attack and the armor has -.2 int total, that's .7-.2=.5 sec/attack. How is that a glitch?

And to really blow your mind, if aps wasn't capped at 5.0 than archers and sins could get .15 sec/attack which would be 6.66 aps unsparked and 10 aps demon sparked. So a cap already exists to keep the game from really blowing up, lol.

And PWI never promised anything about an aps nerf. They expiremented with not gaining chi during spark time on private chinese test server, considered it a game ruiner and a failure and emergency patched it out, so it wont be coming our way and I wouldn't suggest basing your game play/stats/build on what you think wish would happen and instead base it on what it actually is.

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

STR barb and proud of it

never gona wear any ****** claw b:shutup axe and hammer for life

Crippling your barbs build and gameplay based on naivete is nothing to be proud of.

Why do barbs need to keep aggro from endgame high aps sins and BMs? They can get bloodpaint from their massive dps and should have endgame gears if they are at that level.

If the issue is getting into squads that want high damage output thats different. But shouldn't an endgame sin or bm who can take aggro from a barb be able to survive anyway?

laloner wrote: »

Why do barbs need to keep aggro from endgame high aps sins and BMs? They can get bloodpaint from their massive dps and should have endgame gears if they are at that level.

If the issue is getting into squads that want high damage output thats different. But shouldn't an endgame sin or bm who can take aggro from a barb be able to survive anyway?

I agree with this. If you ask a majority of the sins/bm's if they would prefer to tank or if they want you to tank most would rather tank things themselves so they can openly DD. Having to hold back damage output is both difficult and sometimes deadly because you are not getting the heals of a tank and since you are not fully DDing you are not getting as much bloodpaint heals as you normally would get.

This is when the job of a barb becomes support. Use Devour to lower the bosses attack levels and raise the amount of bloodpaint heals the tank can get. Steal aggro for a second if you think the sin/bm needs a break to fully heal. Other than that, DD. I think demon barbs do a better job at DDing but both sage and demon can do a good job at support.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

He's happy with his build, and he's playing the class as designed - and successful with it.

Recommending what you would do is fine. Ridiculing him because he plays a barb as a barb makes you an ***.

I'm sorry, did you just necro a thread after two weeks to defend the person who ruined a perfectly good conversation by bad mouthing aps for no reason, and then call me an ***? Ghoul stalks threads, offers no advice or only bad advice to derail threads and bad mouth barbs who use weapons other than axes. Based on his advice in other threads he has very little concept of what a barb can do. My response to him was a defense of my build and barbs everywhere. Thanks for going out of your way to necro a thread just to criticize me about criticizing a troll, hypocrite.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm sorry, did you just necro a thread after two weeks to defend the person who ruined a perfectly good conversation by bad mouthing aps for no reason, and then call me an ***? Ghoul stalks threads, offers no advice or only bad advice to derail threads and bad mouth barbs who use weapons other than axes. Based on his advice in other threads he has very little concept of what a barb can do. My response to him was a defense of my build and barbs everywhere. Thanks for going out of your way to necro a thread just to criticize me about criticizing a troll, hypocrite.

Tell you what, Sweetcheeks. I'll make an *extra* effort to watch all your posts and make sure to call you an *** right away, instead of making you wait.

If you think barbs are best as aps machines, then you are more than entitled to your opinion. Just as he is entitled to his opinion that his build is appropriate as well.

Either way, delayed or not, you're still an ***.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

In pve I cant see any drawback whatsoever to using claws even more so after recast is added.

in pvp barbs are **** unless they spend much much more than the opponent anyways,

So sugarbuns what exactly crawled up your *** died and necrosed into a load of **** that you then vomited onto this forum red hot catholic love style?

Originally Posted by _Ghoul_ - Lost City
STR barb and proud of it

never gona wear any ****** claw axe and hammer for life

Crippling your barbs build and gameplay based on naivete is nothing to be proud of.

^ This condescending response to the above statement is what caused me to knee-jerk "**** YOU".

See, I agree that claw barbs are pretty damn cool - I have a 142 demon claw barb on a private server I have a great time with. I also have a 102 demon axe and hammer barb on PWI that I enjoy. I don't think either is better than the other. Personally, working under the 105 level cap restrictions of PWI, I would suggest a claw BM as being 90% the strength of a claw barb, with the advantages of having actual fist mastery, and *it's built to be that way*. YMMV.

But I happily cheer anyone on who wants to make a claw barb, or a bow sin, or a heavy armor veno, or whatever.

Even if ghoul called his momma fat upthread doesn't matter - telling someone they are simply too stupid to play this game because they play their character as was originally designed is the behavior of an ***.

Being called out on it is what you risk when you show your peen in open forum. If you believe in your statements enough to whip em out here, be prepared for the possibility of someone not agreeing with it. I just responded in the same respectful tone that he used.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Originally Posted by _Ghoul_ - Lost City
STR barb and proud of it

never gona wear any ****** claw axe and hammer for life

Crippling your barbs build and gameplay based on naivete is nothing to be proud of.

^ This condescending response to the above statement is what caused me to knee-jerk "**** YOU".

See, I agree that claw barbs are pretty damn cool - I have a 142 demon claw barb on a private server I have a great time with. I also have a 102 demon axe and hammer barb on PWI that I enjoy. I don't think either is better than the other. Personally, working under the 105 level cap restrictions of PWI, I would suggest a claw BM as being 90% the strength of a claw barb, with the advantages of having actual fist mastery, and *it's built to be that way*. YMMV.

Eh unless you can afford rank 9 highly refined it really is gimping your character to an extent in pve, a great extent

But I happily cheer anyone on who wants to make a claw barb, or a bow sin, or a heavy armor veno, or whatever.

Even if ghoul called his momma fat upthread doesn't matter - telling someone they are simply too stupid to play this game because they play their character as was originally designed is the behavior of an ***.

Being called out on it is what you risk when you show your peen in open forum. If you believe in your statements enough to whip em out here, be prepared for the possibility of someone not agreeing with it. I just responded in the same respectful tone that he used.

Random advice on morality?

blarg

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

He asked why I called him an ***. I demonstrated why he's an ***. It wasn't difficult.

His next step is to whine necro, and post "QQ MOAR".

Not arguing saku's line of astric status that's up to him lol

IJS takes one to know one