This is what real patch notes look like.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver · October 2011

FalseArrow - Heavens Tear wrote: »

pwi has many minor glitches to fix, but most of those dont matter.

Lol. Youre bad. Get out.

1.) Rubberbanding.
2.) Aps.
3.) Tideborn.
4.) EG.
5.) Sales.
6.) Squad mechanics.
7.) FC.
8.) Rank 8/9
9.) Room 34.
10) Aps.
11.) Cant forget aps.

Took me about 10 seconds to think of this. If you were worth more of my time I could go on. These arent minor problems with this game, theyre game breaking problems. They destroyed class balance, hinder players ability to even play, and allow people to buy faceroll skill level 11.

Dethprowl - Raging Tide · October 2011

PW is in straight up fail mode. Its one of the only, probably the only, game that cash sales its most powerful items and armor instead of making farming them easily part of the game.

Its days are numbered, less than 6 months probably depending on when the new games start going live or accepting beta testers. When word gets back on how much better those games are there'll be a mass exodus to games that allow you to farm the best equipment ingame without taking 2 years.

PWI has broken almost all of the rules of keeping online gamers happy and spending money. Not the least of which is the rule that you dont sell power. Sure they sold some r9 to people that are loose with their money, but they could have made more money over a longer span buy giving away the armor and charging a small fee for add ons. And I dont mean just give away suits of armor, but make the mats to build it free as quest rewards and make players work for it. But then that would probably mean PW would have to build some new instances for 100+ players, which they really hate to do. Hell they hate adding anything new for players after they hit 100. Really there is no need for r9 in the game at all. They dont care if you stick around after lvl 100 and really dont care to add instances that require r9. Sure serious TW players want r9 and are appearently willing to throw away nearly 2 thousand bucks for it, but its not really needed in TW or anywhere else in the game, there's nothing that hard to kill.

Anyway, keep blowing good money on a dying game if you like. In a few months youll be one of handfull of op r9 players still hanging on in a game whose days are numbered.

The rest of us will send you a hello from time to time from *** or Tera.

Renza - Raging Tide · October 2011

Well, the "rule" is to not sell power, though there's still a good portion of the player base that actually like to (obviously), problem is, the devs didn't quite figure out how to do it tastefully and instead just tossed in the most insanely over powered gear I've ever seen in my 8 odd years of MMO gaming.

devotion · October 2011

Dethprowl - Raging Tide wrote: »

PW is in straight up fail mode. Its one of the only, probably the only, game that cash sales its most powerful items and armor instead of making farming them easily part of the game.

Its days are numbered, less than 6 months probably depending on when the new games start going live or accepting beta testers. When word gets back on how much better those games are there'll be a mass exodus to games that allow you to farm the best equipment ingame without taking 2 years.

PWI has broken almost all of the rules of keeping online gamers happy and spending money. Not the least of which is the rule that you dont sell power. Sure they sold some r9 to people that are loose with their money, but they could have made more money over a longer span buy giving away the armor and charging a small fee for add ons. And I dont mean just give away suits of armor, but make the mats to build it free as quest rewards and make players work for it. But then that would probably mean PW would have to build some new instances for 100+ players, which they really hate to do. Hell they hate adding anything new for players after they hit 100. Really there is no need for r9 in the game at all. They dont care if you stick around after lvl 100 and really dont care to add instances that require r9. Sure serious TW players want r9 and are appearently willing to throw away nearly 2 thousand bucks for it, but its not really needed in TW or anywhere else in the game, there's nothing that hard to kill.

Anyway, keep blowing good money on a dying game if you like. In a few months youll be one of handfull of op r9 players still hanging on in a game whose days are numbered.

The rest of us will send you a hello from time to time from *** or Tera.

PWI won't die in 6 months because better games come out. It's not like guildwars2 or tera will make players open their eyes and realize how bad PWI is. Look at it this way, PWI has been consistently terrible since september 2009 yet still plenty of you guys play the game. There will always be people complaining on the forums that PWI will die soon and there will always be people paying money to play a game that doesn't deserve more than 2$ a month.

Dethprowl - Raging Tide · October 2011

devotion wrote: »

PWI won't die in 6 months because better games come out. It's not like guildwars2 or tera will make players open their eyes and realize how bad PWI is. Look at it this way, PWI has been consistently terrible since september 2009 yet still plenty of you guys play the game. There will always be people complaining on the forums that PWI will die soon and there will always be people paying money to play a game that doesn't deserve more than 2$ a month.

You may be right that people will still fall for this game, but I doubt that many over 100 will stay unless they just like being a big fish in a small pond. Like I said once the new games go live and reports start coming back about the better fighting systems and getting best armors ingame with a little work instead of taking out a mortgage on your house, there'll be a stampede from this game. At best PWI will be a starter platform for other games. Noobs may play it, until they hear about real games to transfer to that dont charge for things that should be farmable ingame.

Envelope - Raging Tide · October 2011

Dethprowl - Raging Tide wrote: »

PW is in straight up fail mode. Its one of the only, probably the only, game that cash sales its most powerful items and armor instead of making farming them easily part of the game.

Its days are numbered, less than 6 months probably depending on when the new games start going live or accepting beta testers. When word gets back on how much better those games are there'll be a mass exodus to games that allow you to farm the best equipment ingame without taking 2 years.

PWI has broken almost all of the rules of keeping online gamers happy and spending money. Not the least of which is the rule that you dont sell power. Sure they sold some r9 to people that are loose with their money, but they could have made more money over a longer span buy giving away the armor and charging a small fee for add ons. And I dont mean just give away suits of armor, but make the mats to build it free as quest rewards and make players work for it. But then that would probably mean PW would have to build some new instances for 100+ players, which they really hate to do. Hell they hate adding anything new for players after they hit 100. Really there is no need for r9 in the game at all. They dont care if you stick around after lvl 100 and really dont care to add instances that require r9. Sure serious TW players want r9 and are appearently willing to throw away nearly 2 thousand bucks for it, but its not really needed in TW or anywhere else in the game, there's nothing that hard to kill.

Anyway, keep blowing good money on a dying game if you like. In a few months youll be one of handfull of op r9 players still hanging on in a game whose days are numbered.

fore The rest of us will send you a hello from time to time from *** or Tera.

You said this very nicely. I agree with you mostly, though i don't think the exodus to other games is going to make the game die - there will always be enough players willing to pay cash to be the best, which will keep the game running.

But yea. Basically the biggest problem of pwi is that you can't really farm equipment anymore unless you cash shop for it. Yes you can do it without cs but that can easily take one or two years if you don't want to give up on your RL for it. Even more so if you have to make a farming alt so you will have to level and gear that alt first beyou can farm for your main. Which is more than just a bit annoying.

The sad thing about it: It wouldn't be so hard for the developers to fix this. They aren't the original developers, so what? They could just add a simple daily that gives you 500 rep, then add a cs item that allows you to do it up to three times a day. Or make Nirvana easier to farm. Or increase quest rewards...nerf aps cap... whatever you like, but either way it can't be that hard. And what do they come up with in the end? Recasting R8/9 gears so they have better stats. Come on...

devotion · October 2011

Dethprowl - Raging Tide wrote: »

You may be right that people will still fall for this game, but I doubt that many over 100 will stay unless they just like being a big fish in a small pond. Like I said once the new games go live and reports start coming back about the better fighting systems and getting best armors ingame with a little work instead of taking out a mortgage on your house, there'll be a stampede from this game. At best PWI will be a starter platform for other games. Noobs may play it, until they hear about real games to transfer to that dont charge for things that should be farmable ingame.

The thing is to be the best at good games actually requires skill. The major reason people cs and play PWI is so they can have the feeling of being the best when they actually have no skill. What else do you think would justify spending 4 figures on a game as so obviously bad as this one? PWI does a good job to ensure these sad people continue to feed their ego.

Good games are basically a different genre compared to F2P games that focus on cash shop for profit.

Tsukyini - Raging Tide · October 2011

Dethprowl - Raging Tide wrote: »

I doubt that many over 100 will stay unless they just like being a big fish in a small pond.

That may be true, but then again, does it matter? Most of those people have probably already spent the most they were ever planning to spend. PWE already got their money. New players will come and take their places. Even if those players also end up quitting after 100, it still won't matter, because the cycle will begin anew. Until it actually gets to the point of scaring away new players or seriously discouraging them from spending money, the cycle of turnover can continue and PWE will be able to maintain the game just fine. It won't die. It just won't always have the same people playing it.

Empu - Sanctuary · October 2011

Any of you actually considered that PWE manages this way because all the players want it so bad?

Let's face it, 90% of those who want rebalances and another game management think like this :

Irae - Harshlands wrote: »

*topic related input*

That said, I looove running with R9 sins because its just sooooooooooooo OP. So, people who have the money will get R9 over G15 because its simply That much better.

I still feel that its ruining the game though

I know many that agree about the 5 aps thing became totally ridiculous, but 10min later they wc "pm me your aps". They all think R9 and 5 aps ruined the game, still love to run with ppl geared that way, because they hate to waste time playing the game. A nirvana run over 15 min is already "to long" for some, seeing circles at 1st boss is a "fail squad" and having to do chests is "horrible fail".

If you take a look at this thread : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1203291 (or any thread related to "aps problem" or "OP fish")

You will see how many can state that sins aren't OP, and come with the "nobody wants 2h+ TT back" argument. Even though I personally take them for either naif idiots that consider rebalancing = everyone back to TT90 +2 like the old days, or hypocrites that are affraid to loose their royal throne, this does seem to be the major thinking ingame. Everyone wants things done fast, lvl fast and most off all, don't waste any time.

Now personally, I do believe a major rebalance of all classes pvp and pve wise is needed. Cashshopping should give an advantage, but not in the form of 1 shotting everyone and soloing whatever you want. However, I do see all the wc "looking for 5 aps DD for X", "5min vana run looking for 5 aps +10", "WTB fcc heads, lvl90 seeker" and even "FCC lvl80-90 LF aps sin". With those fake partisans of a rebalancement, that think r9 is bad but sneakily jump on any r9 sin to vana/tt with, I don't think the majority of players actually think PWE fails so bad.

Rather then bashing on a company that is, in my opinion, just following what the majority of the customers (especially the paying customers) claim from them, I think it is better to look at the playerbase itself. They are the ones that love 95% of the game based on 2 classes, aka sin + bm. They are the ones wanting to run any instance as fast as possible. PWE just gives them what they want.

devotion · October 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Any of you actually considered that PWE manages this way because all the players want it so bad?

Let's face it, 90% of those who want rebalances and another game management think like this :

I know many that agree about the 5 aps thing became totally ridiculous, but 10min later they wc "pm me your aps". They all think R9 and 5 aps ruined the game, still love to run with ppl geared that way, because they hate to waste time playing the game. A nirvana run over 15 min is already "to long" for some, seeing circles at 1st boss is a "fail squad" and having to do chests is "horrible fail".

If you take a look at this thread : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1203291 (or any thread related to "aps problem" or "OP fish")

You will see how many can state that sins aren't OP, and come with the "nobody wants 2h+ TT back" argument. Even though I personally take them for either naif idiots that consider rebalancing = everyone back to TT90 +2 like the old days, or hypocrites that are affraid to loose their royal throne, this does seem to be the major thinking ingame. Everyone wants things done fast, lvl fast and most off all, don't waste any time.

Now personally, I do believe a major rebalance of all classes pvp and pve wise is needed. Cashshopping should give an advantage, but not in the form of 1 shotting everyone and soloing whatever you want. However, I do see all the wc "looking for 5 aps DD for X", "5min vana run looking for 5 aps +10", "WTB fcc heads, lvl90 seeker" and even "FCC lvl80-90 LF aps sin". With those fake partisans of a rebalancement, that think r9 is bad but sneakily jump on any r9 sin to vana/tt with, I don't think the majority of players actually think PWE fails so bad.

Rather then bashing on a company that is, in my opinion, just following what the majority of the customers (especially the paying customers) claim from them, I think it is better to look at the playerbase itself. They are the ones that love 95% of the game based on 2 classes, aka sin + bm. They are the ones wanting to run any instance as fast as possible. PWE just gives them what they want.

Which came first 5 aps or people wanting 5 aps? A major reason people become the top in an MMO is because they either spend more time than everyone else or find ways to spend time efficiently. If everyone has the ability to run an instance in 5 minutes they will always choose that over a longer run because it makes sense. I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind a 15 minute NV run being too long is that the average run might take under 10 minutes and therefore was an inefficient use of time. If they are complaining about the length for another reason they shouldn't be playing an mmo.

So basically, yes, what you are saying is correct about the players mindsets wanting things faster but that's in relation to the average. PWE didn't respond with these changes because people wanted them, they added the changes because it would make them money since people are forced to follow the forever decreasing average.

Xeian - Dreamweaver · October 2011

FalseArrow - Heavens Tear wrote: »

pwi has many minor glitches to fix, but most of those dont matter

1: the "last shot" bug: This is basically that there is not monster HP check to see if they have died, players do have this check.

2: long-range melee, no reflect: when I mob initiates a close-range attack, you simply can not outrun the hit, regardless of how far away you are. If the attack launches there's a good chance it will hit (like 90% at even levels) at the same time the Veno skill "Bramble guard" will see these as long-range attacks, and not deflect the damage, that was initially close-range.

(the above have unknown patch numbers, happening as long as I have been playing)

3: Phantom Buildings: Some buildings you can fall into and get stuck, literally. if you woud like to see what I mean, feel free to contact me on DW and I'll happily show you, reported this twice now, once when I started and once reciently. (I started at 172 or 175)

fixed 4: obviously known, often discussed, halloween event packs: it's been a month, these things still aren't fixed for the majority of people. fixed

5: graphical glitches in certain places in the game: orchid temple is the most infamous one, others exist I'm sure, and it has only gotten worse (patch 175)

minor? I think not this was a pm sent to spoons

(Btw, old main of Psytrac - Dreamweaver)

Empu - Sanctuary · October 2011

devotion wrote: »

Which came first 5 aps or people wanting 5 aps? A major reason people become the top in an MMO is because they either spend more time than everyone else or find ways to spend time efficiently. If everyone has the ability to run an instance in 5 minutes they will always choose that over a longer run because it makes sense. I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind a 15 minute NV run being too long is that the average run might take under 10 minutes and therefore was an inefficient use of time. If they are complaining about the length for another reason they shouldn't be playing an mmo.

In theory, 5 aps has always been possible, at least for archers. Ppl wanting something, is often the immitation effect. Untill some archer started to put in youtube what he could do with 5 aps (and +10~12 refines, but everyone forgot about that ofc), everyone just spit on fists. It always goes like that, and always will.

I think you mix up "standard / norm" with average. Average nirvana is not under 10min. Still everyone wants those fast runs, they even wc for 30min to make such a squad for just 1 or 2 runs. And you find that normal?

As far as I'm concerned, any free time activity is "inefficient use of time" or more clearly, a waste of time. To many are not "playing" anymore. It has become a sort of work. That is why they complain on 1 side that the game is so broken, but still are the first to jump on the occasion.

devotion wrote: »

So basically, yes, what you are saying is correct about the players mindsets wanting things faster but that's in relation to the average. PWE didn't respond with these changes because people wanted them, they added the changes because it would make them money since people are forced to follow the forever decreasing average.

I think this is such a naif point of view. Ofc, PWE want to make money. That is the definition itself of a company. To make money, they want to keep the majority of their customers happy. And I think that is exactly what they do.

The only reason ppl want to "decrease average", is because they turn this free time activity in a competition. If, for instance, you go fishing with a friend (another free time activity), would you care to catch a fish in 5, 10 or 30min? Or care to catch one before your friend? I highly doubt you do. You should try once, to turn it into a competition, and see if you still have fun to go fishing. What you say then, is that "fishing is a stupid activity" but you won't look at yourself and your friend, who are the ones who spoiled all the fun.

Each wc "LF 5 aps DD for nirvana" is telling PWE they should put in more packs. Each wc "LF 5 aps +10 for 5min nirvana" is telling PWE to put in another orb sale. If the players didn't get so freaking competitive, additions would involve cube-like instances, fashion and mounts. But since players only want to be better then the rest, they put in nirvana and rank9.

I can't blame PWE for the stupidity of the players. I blame the players.

devotion · October 2011

PWE's F2P business model does not revolve around making the customers happy in the sense of providing players what they want and I can assure you this. A large amount of updates PW released are mainly based off the idea that people are willing to pay ridiculous amounts of money to feed their egos. It's amazing how easily people are persuaded to spend money when it's a function of how good you are at a something and PWE finally figured it out on their first anniversary (or they waited a year to develop a dedicated playerbase before unleashing the greed, I think this is more likely).

I'd like to point out that a game is very different than fishing. The entire point of a game is competition whether you like it or not. People can play games to enjoy the lore or make friends but in an mmo competition is always the backbone. Fishing is mainly a leisure activity but don't for one second think there isn't competition (fishing derbys, "I caught the biggest fish", etc.).

Another thing, I've been using fists(on a warrior) before this version was even released. The only reason people spit on them here is because the game was still in its early stages before fist builds were even viable since you need cv claws and only 3-4 people actually had a cv weapon.

Also, I think my point of view is far from naive. I've played since september 27th 2007 and my point of view is based off the changes I've seen since then.

Empu - Sanctuary · October 2011

@ devotion : Your 1st and 2nd paragraphe show exactly what I mean.

I like the term "greed", it makes me giggle and wonder in which world you live. The majority of big companies are ruled by short-term profit, just look at the financial pages of any newspaper of the past decades. You act like PWE is 1 person, who decides on everything. In reality, it's a bit more complicated then that : that is why I said you are naive. All that research about "corporate governance" for you is just "greed".

I also think you don't really see a very important point : the behaviour of a group is not simply the addition of the behaviour of individuals composing the group. Your paragraphe about fists shows that clearly. I think you missed all the fancy calculations about fists being the best single target dps weapon starting from lvl29, even at no -int gear. If you start to add any -int gear, even just -0.05, the difference will only become bigger. Why did only a few use fists? Simply cause of the group-dynamics. At that moment it was "axes or gtfo". Same as the "5 aps or gtfo" we see today.

But well, I'll leave you to your own opinions. I just think it's sad to blame everything on something or someone else. I also play a few years now, and my point of view is based on the endless "QQ it's their fault!". The playerbase didn't change 1 tiny bit, they are, and always have been, looking to lvl faster then the rest, be stronger then the rest and mostly busy with their own needs (yes, players are more greedy then PWE imo).

JSXJoe - Sanctuary · October 2011

I dont see the problem that PWE couldn't fix this, because on another game that belongs to PWI = rh (Rusty Hearts, dunno if I can mention it, unless it's the same company lol). Based on the game mechanics itself gear doesn't matter quite a bit compared to PWI you can go into instances, farm your gears, train your skill, do endless PvP and guess what not gear is what is important there in PvP nope. Skill is the only thing that matters...seriously when I started pking there I got owned by someone of the same class 10 levels below myself and I'm no nub o.o and thats reason enough to say, that this game is PvP based 10000 times better then PWI. NO need to CS, but you can if you want fashion and stuffs, ya know. You can basicly farm everthing all by yourself or in a squad. And thought this game is instanced rly much, PvP and PvE is much more fun due to it's dynamic gameplay. And know what =? these are 2 different games and rh is gaining more and more popularity, even without heavy Csing and stuff, and so could PWI too I guess. Raising lvlcap is indeed the only thing that could save PWI now, cuz when you're 150 even the NPC gear would be better then r9 so no need for r9 anymore, that would be just a massive money waste then. And bring out new gears that are overepic, a giant if you compare it to warsoul and treat it as a bug o.o and make it "working-your-dang-a$$-off"-hard to get. Limit Assassins only to somewhat 2.5 aps maximum or lower, because thats the only class that is OP compared to all others. And while we're at it, fix Stealth, increase mana cost at x20 or x10 and make any skill no matter what cause them to be visible again! even if they just take pots and stuff and make them move at least 50% slower then without stealth. Their chi ganing skill need to have more Cooldown like 5 mins to all. That would make sins like they were meant to be, they would still be amazingly strong but with limitations, fair limitations!.

That's all that I needed to say about that.^^ Finding myself playing other games while I was rly addicted to this game for over 2 years xDD Such a pitty that a great game like PWI has to suffer under such tremendous bad management. Well, hope never dies I guess...so I hope that PWE and PWCN will learn something from their community =D

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear · October 2011

JSXJoe - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dont see the problem that PWE couldn't fix this, because on another game that belongs to PWI = rh (Rusty Hearts, dunno if I can mention it, unless it's the same company lol). Based on the game mechanics itself gear doesn't matter quite a bit compared to PWI you can go into instances, farm your gears, train your skill, do endless PvP and guess what not gear is what is important there in PvP nope. Skill is the only thing that matters...seriously when I started pking there I got owned by someone of the same class 10 levels below myself and I'm no nub o.o and thats reason enough to say, that this game is PvP based 10000 times better then PWI. NO need to CS, but you can if you want fashion and stuffs, ya know. You can basicly farm everthing all by yourself or in a squad. And thought this game is instanced rly much, PvP and PvE is much more fun due to it's dynamic gameplay. And know what =? these are 2 different games and rh is gaining more and more popularity, even without heavy Csing and stuff, and so could PWI too I guess. Raising lvlcap is indeed the only thing that could save PWI now, cuz when you're 150 even the NPC gear would be better then r9 so no need for r9 anymore, that would be just a massive money waste then. And bring out new gears that are overepic, a giant if you compare it to warsoul and treat it as a bug o.o and make it "working-your-dang-a$$-off"-hard to get. Limit Assassins only to somewhat 2.5 aps maximum or lower, because thats the only class that is OP compared to all others. And while we're at it, fix Stealth, increase mana cost at x20 or x10 and make any skill no matter what cause them to be visible again! even if they just take pots and stuff and make them move at least 50% slower then without stealth. Their chi ganing skill need to have more Cooldown like 5 mins to all. That would make sins like they were meant to be, they would still be amazingly strong but with limitations, fair limitations!.

That's all that I needed to say about that.^^ Finding myself playing other games while I was rly addicted to this game for over 2 years xDD Such a pitty that a great game like PWI has to suffer under such tremendous bad management. Well, hope never dies I guess...so I hope that PWE and PWCN will learn something from their community =D

RH isn't developed by pwe / wanmei b:sin but by Stairway Games [korea] (not surprised)
that why it didn't follow typical built of pwe / wanmei
PWE just publishing it here
and grats for enjoying it btw b:pleased

Eilexa - Heavens Tear · October 2011

Ugh seriously...I'm getting tired reading of people who are complaing about silly things about this game... if you have a problem with the game or it's patches or it patch notes or it's website or whatever, if you prefer another game....GTFO - just don't play PW or go play the other games that are so great or have decent patch notes (a thread about patch notes? really? FFS) b:surrender

JSXJoe - Sanctuary · October 2011

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

RH isn't developed by pwe / wanmei b:sin (not surprised)
PWE just publishing it here
and grats for enjoying it btw b:pleased

Yeah I know but it's the same management as PWI, PWE actually is just a publisher, haven't heard of any game they developed by themselfes lol And maybe they should start making own games so they could make changes quick and near in time without asking PWCN all the friggin time or any over publisher/developer.

RH is the best game PWE come up with since PWI, all other games are just like PWI or somehow related, all the same gameplay mechanics but rh is different. Never felt like playing DMC so much while actually playing an MMO =D

PK ppl of PWI, if you love fighting against other players and if you're craving for challanging PvP then go tho rh and leave your money there =D

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear · October 2011

I think PWE here are a part of PWCN... b:quiet
You can see news for both NA & CN of PWE and Wanmei (PWCN) at PWE company site.

(for extreme, PWE = Wanmei name for english b:chuckle)
So basically what developed by Wanmei = developed by PWE
(but PWCN have full influence on development)

Tsukyini - Raging Tide · October 2011

JSXJoe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Limit Assassins only to somewhat 2.5 aps maximum or lower, because thats the only class that is OP compared to all others. And while we're at it, fix Stealth, increase mana cost at x20 or x10 and make any skill no matter what cause them to be visible again! even if they just take pots and stuff and make them move at least 50% slower then without stealth. Their chi ganing skill need to have more Cooldown like 5 mins to all. That would make sins like they were meant to be, they would still be amazingly strong but with limitations, fair limitations!.

Has there ever been an official statement that sins are not "like they were meant to be"?

Just because some players have issues with them doesn't mean that they aren't functioning as intended.

devotion · October 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

@ devotion : Your 1st and 2nd paragraphe show exactly what I mean.

I like the term "greed", it makes me giggle and wonder in which world you live. The majority of big companies are ruled by short-term profit, just look at the financial pages of any newspaper of the past decades. You act like PWE is 1 person, who decides on everything. In reality, it's a bit more complicated then that : that is why I said you are naive. All that research about "corporate governance" for you is just "greed".

I also think you don't really see a very important point : the behaviour of a group is not simply the addition of the behaviour of individuals composing the group. Your paragraphe about fists shows that clearly. I think you missed all the fancy calculations about fists being the best single target dps weapon starting from lvl29, even at no -int gear. If you start to add any -int gear, even just -0.05, the difference will only become bigger. Why did only a few use fists? Simply cause of the group-dynamics. At that moment it was "axes or gtfo". Same as the "5 aps or gtfo" we see today.

But well, I'll leave you to your own opinions. I just think it's sad to blame everything on something or someone else. I also play a few years now, and my point of view is based on the endless "QQ it's their fault!". The playerbase didn't change 1 tiny bit, they are, and always have been, looking to lvl faster then the rest, be stronger then the rest and mostly busy with their own needs (yes, players are more greedy then PWE imo).

I don't know how to put this more clearly. The entire reason people play mmos is for competition. Why do you think there are levels and items and pvp? There are people who don't fall under this category but they are far from the majority. Obviously people are going to want to level faster than the rest and be stronger... that is called competition. PWE is simply releasing updates that take advantage of this human nature. Every game worth mentioning is centered around competition it's just they profit from providing a good experience so that keep people playing where as PWE profits from what I said above.

I'm not here to debate whether or not PWE is greedy, I'm correcting you on your original statement that the issues we see are because of the players.

Since you still think I'm naive I'm going to give you a little lesson as to why people used to say axes or gtfo. It might not make sense to you since you seem to have a different mindset than the majority of mmo players but bare with me. First of all, most players ultimate goal is to reach endgame. This usually takes priority over everything. You can still pvp some but almost everything you do in-game is centered around levelling. Since you are always levelling your gear will continue to be obsolete in a short time. As a blademaster, you have 4 weapon paths which means you could possibly be spending a lot of money updating 4 weapons each generation. This, coupled with the fact you are always short on spirit points to level the four skill trees means people mainly focus on one weapon path while levelling. Now, don't forget people also like to pvp even before endgame so having a build suitable for pvp is also a factor in your weapon choice. So ultimately we want to find the best weapon tree that will allow us to level fast and be formidable in pvp.

Lets compare axes and fists following the above criteria. Axes enable you to aoe grind which was the fastest way of levelling outside of zhen parties. No warriors were invited to grind parties at butterflies or fish since they are melee so you were forced to solo kill mobs at a ridiculously slow rate or aoe grind. For pvp, since you weren't at endgame yet you barely ever refined your armor. This means most blademasters HP came from their build. If you want to ever stand a chance in pvp you absolutely must have drake bash which is an axe only skill so unfortunately to pvp with a fist build almost all your attributes are in strength and dex which leaves you with tremendously low hp and not near enough to pvp with. Finally, there is a weapon that fits perfectly with the above two requirements which are the gold 70 axes with beserk which makes aoe grinding a breeze and you a power house in pvp. The only place fists out performed axes pre-endgame was in solo target dps which would be FBs and HH but dragon was 100 times more effective for the real dps classes and again this does not justify the dramatic hp loss required to use fists. One thing I'd like to point out is that once we reached 90 pretty much all my warrior friends started to add fists to their toolset. This is because they had the benefits of HH90 now and farming instances became much more important.

Empu - Sanctuary · October 2011

devotion wrote: »

I don't know how to put this more clearly. The entire reason people play mmos is for competition. Why do you think there are levels and items and pvp? There are people who don't fall under this category but they are far from the majority. Obviously people are going to want to level faster than the rest and be stronger... that is called competition. PWE is simply releasing updates that take advantage of this human nature. Every game worth mentioning is centered around competition it's just they profit from providing a good experience so that keep people playing where as PWE profits from what I said above.

Let's just keep it we live in a different world. I don't put competition in free time activities and games, especially a game where there is no "winning" to start with.

You say :
-Ppl play mmos for competition, sure, this could be a reason. Let's assume you are right.
-Ppl for that reason want to lvl faster and be stronger then the rest, sure, under previous hypothesis that makes sence.
-PWE releases updates that allow to lvl extremely fast and become extremely powerfull. Indeed they do.
-You present this as taking advantage of ppl, and that it's a bad thing. Here I stop to agree. If anyone forces you to buy rank8 in cashshop, it's the playerbase that will spit on you if you don't have at least that. Any instance, with maybe, just maybe, the exception of 3-3, is perfactly doable with TT90. So, PWE gives us stuff to lvl faster and be stronger. According to your reasoning, this should be good no? They give you a way to be "competitive", which is, according to you, the thrill of any game.

At the rest of you post, I just lol'ed.

But to stop a yes-no discussion : if pwe and the game are so bad, just quit and go play some other game. It's just a game for ***** sake. The amount of players that hate the game, but still play or atleast look on it's forums every day, really surprises me. I mean, trying to "save" something as futile as a video game, when saying there are so many of them that are so much better anyway, really is a waste of time (maybe a game for some?).

JSXJoe - Sanctuary · October 2011

Tsukyini - Raging Tide wrote: »

Has there ever been an official statement that sins are not "like they were meant to be"?

Just because some players have issues with them doesn't mean that they aren't functioning as intended.

Here then sry for my formulation, but thats exactly how sins should be at least.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

At the rest of you post, I just lol'ed.

But to stop a yes-no discussion : if pwe and the game are so bad, just quit and go play some other game. It's just a game for ***** sake. The amount of players that hate the game, but still play or atleast look on it's forums every day, really surprises me. I mean, trying to "save" something as futile as a video game, when saying there are so many of them that are so much better anyway, really is a waste of time (maybe a game for some?).

You don't need to think hard about it, thats just human nature. They know that there are games out there that are considered "better" then PWI in some kind of aspects...but they still have the desire and an intense wish that PWI would get over with all those bugs and unbalanced **** and finally become the game again that they loved and admired so much. They still play and come to forums because they hope to see their beloved game to become how they always wanted it to be.

EDIT: And btw ofc is it too hard to understand that someone is pissed when his/her fav game is nearlyas good as dead just because no one ever cared about the community and just care about earning money in the short term. Well satisfiying costumers and earning money should somehow be connected, don't you think =?

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · October 2011

Tsukyini - Raging Tide wrote: »

Has there ever been an official statement that sins are not "like they were meant to be"?

Just because some players have issues with them doesn't mean that they aren't functioning as intended.

They are functioning as intended, but a developer in China did admit they messed up and are working on ways to "make them less effective." Why do you think the incoming spark nerf, cancel casting glitch fix, and caster nirvana were implemented? They are a problem and even the devs know it. The issue that they seem to be trying to do is to figure out a way to make them less effective without actually nerfing the gear/skills people paid money for, worked on and earned.

Ikarium - Dreamweaver · October 2011

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They are functioning as intended, but a developer in China did admit they messed up and are working on ways to "make them less effective." Why do you think the incoming spark nerf, cancel casting glitch fix, and caster nirvana were implemented?.

If that were a direct quote, as I recall it, I don't think that was what they said. As I recall it they said they were working on making 5APS/perma-sparking less effective. Not Sins.
And the "spark nerf" nerf, IF it even happens is just making Sins more OP than other classes than they are now (their chi regen skills VS other classes will put them way ahead of anyone else).
CC glitch was just that. A glitch. It was fixed.

This is what real patch notes look like.

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