Evasion Equation - Updated

AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »

You can make the claim that the damage it absorbs is static but increased evasion reduces the net damage you take thereby having the shield absorb a greater percent of the actual damage sustained. Defense will do the exact same thing though and it is still unclear to me which will provide more survivability.

So, ok, maybe I am missing something?

But for example: if your defense is high enough to keep your winged shell from being popped in one hit, when you increase your defense you are actually reducing the amount of damage being absorbed by winged shell.

But this does not ever happen with evasion, does it?

AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think an example will best explain my reasons. Lets say a monster does 100 attacks against you before it dies each doing 1,000 damage per hit. For the sake of simplicity lets say you have 0 defense and 0 evade initially thereby taking all of the damage, 100,000 total. Now, you put on some gear and increase either your defense or evasion to 1%

--1% Evasion--
1000 per atk
99 hit
1 miss

---

99,000 damage taken

--1% Damage Reduction--
990 per atk
100 hit
0 miss

---

99,000 damage taken

Net result (on average) is the same decrease in damage. Throwing a shield into the mix doesn't really change things between the two situations. Its going to absorb damage, you are going to still dodge and damage will still be reduced. Now, depending on if defense affects the shield or not (I do not know) it would actually favor getting defense.

The main reason for determining these equations is because obtaining that 1% is not equal. They are also nonlinear with diminishing returns which means that after a certain amount one will be better to get than the other.

So.. ok... I am going to presume that we are still talking about my original assertion:

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I should also point out something that has been getting no discussion that I have seen:

The archer skill "Winged Shell" interacts nicely with evasion, in the context of short battles. In essence, it gives you an extra chance for evasion to mean something. (And, of course, Deaden Nerves fills a similar role for Assassins.)

...but I do not think your example represents a short battle.

First, your damage is way too low for a short battle. But, also, I do not think 100 hits would be "short".

Nevertheless, you can still see hints of the issue I was speaking of, here: For example, if you remove one hit from that sequence because of winged shell, with 1% defense, your winged shell reduces damage taken by 990 hp and with 1% evasion your winged shell reduces damage taken by 1000 hp -- in other words, the effectiveness of winged shell against that hit would have increased by approximately 1% from using evasion instead of defense for your total damage reduction. Granted, that's something like 0.01% of total damage received, but even wizards have a 5% chance to evade.

Anyways, if you are going to use an example involving 1% differences and then also claim that 1% is not worth discussing, I think you are arguing against your own example.

So, let's try another example:

Let us consider a battle sequence involving a constant 5000 damage for 5 hits, and let us contract a 20% evasion chance with 20% damage reduction. And, again, we are going to artificially assume one miss from evasion, much like in your setup. And let's also include the fact that winged shell only reduces damage by 80%:

So now we have: (with 20% damage reduction):

800
4000
4000
4000
4000

Total damage taken: 16800

And, with 20% evasion:
1000
0
5000
5000
5000

Total damage taken: 16000

So, you wind up avoiding 800 damage, on average. So, for example, if you had 13k health to start out with, you would take two hits after your charm ticks for the damage reduction case where you would take one hit after your charm ticks for the evasion case. (Of course, this charm tick thing involves luck: if we changed the battle slightly both would still take two hits after the charm tick so the "high defense" case comes out roughly 20% ahead in terms of damage taken after the tick. But a full discussion of the issues involving health charms would be too much for this thread.)

Or, you might want to think about 10k damage with 50% evasion and 50% damage reduction on an archer with 5k health...

AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »

However, one very important issue is that Winged Shell doesn't just provide you with a blanket 80% reduction for one hit. It provides a specific amount total that can be shielded.

So, ok, we might need to discuss the mechanics of winged shell:

And I believe you are interpreting a bad translation from chinese to be the actual mechanics of the skill.

In practice, though, that specific amount is the health of your shell. Until your shell absorbs that amount of damage, or until it times out, it stays up. However, on a hit when that health is exceeded, it gives you its full 80% damage reduction, regardless of how much damage you take on that hit. Of course, once it's gone, it no longer protects you.

fleuri is right, but i'm not sure about the 80% thing; i've turned 20k+ mage hits into 800s lol

as for your formula, i'm not disagreeing with it, but i also can't say it's 100% credible. i can say this, because i know accuracy has a lot to do with luck as well. where i've used characters with 10k accuracy and missed several hits in a row on ~300 dodge mages, and i've used mages that can slash archers with over 6k dodge with under 100 accuracy, i have reason to believe your % to hit or miss is capped somewhere; maybe 90-95%.

95% sounds more logical, based on in-game testing. I know very well that I don't miss 10% of my hits on mages; nor does my mage slash others 1/10th of the time.

crit caps at 95% as well. pdef, mdef, def level, atk level, and cast all cap at 90%, though.

AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would love to know where you get this info, if you have a source / link. Heresay doesn't mean much =/.

The one on crit seems accurate based on what shows in character menu when people use 100% crit rate skills

The rest aren't, though.

AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would love to know where you get this info, if you have a source / link. Heresay doesn't mean much =/.

i use to decompose the pw server+client files(i'm sure there's some not-so-legal forums you could browse to find similar variables), then translate them into legible english some time in the past; i lost all my previous documented saves after a hdd crash, and useless mediafire..

can you believe mediafire deletes what you upload if it goes 'inactive' for 90 days? what's the point of online storage if it's just gana be removed anyway. b:sweat

anyway. i know defenses are capped at 90% reduction, i know crit is also capped at 95%, and you can see 90% cast in-game using that eye thing. these are all long confirmed(interest fact: cast is capped at 95% in myen - weird that it's 90% in pwi).

somewhere on the forums, either in psy or sin forum, there was long discussions about atk/def levels; some still seem to believe it caps at 120, but that's illogical based on previous caps.

as i cannot provide evidence, i'll speak from experience: i know a sin ingame, full rank 9, 4s set full of +1 atk stones. he's holy. he has about 160 atk levels with chill of the deep.

..yet he doesn't hit any higher than a sin with 98 atk levels.

this was done in the raging tides server.

this is my reason to believe it caps at 90. i'd confirm it, but as i've lost all the decompilers i wrote for pw, i cannot

truekossy wrote: »

The one on crit seems accurate based on what shows in character menu when people use 100% crit rate skills

The rest aren't, though.

disprove any of them, lol

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I do not remember where I got 80% from, and I have not tested that recently, and I could be wrong about the damage reduction percent you get from winged shell.

However, I also believe that damage reduction from winged shell stacks with other damage reduction mechanisms. And, I believe I tested that. I just wish I remember when and where I tested that.

i'm not sure if the shell has a total reduction of damage or not - i've never looked into it. if i had to wager, based on the the skills level(the dark melee skill that gives you a level 5 barrier vs. level 11), both offer the same reduction when hit with something that would break it in 1 hit. this leads me to believe you will always take a maximum damage, but i know this also isn't true.

b:shutup $5 says the skill is glitched

+12 striking dragons on the physical immune boss in fb99 abbadon with fist ultimate(demon version, +135% patk in fire vs. +50% patk in water), you hit less than 200 lol

really doubt that buff is helping sins kill anyone whose resisting 90% of the phys atk

Hi, i'm lvl 84 and i have make some test and i have 5300 evasion :

when i select a huggy hare i have 42% evade, when i put the genie buff who give me extra 10% (482 more evasion) the evasion grow up tu 44%, when the buff end or i remove a piece of armor who give enter 300 and 400 evasion, the bonus down to 40% (for 300-400 evasion added/removed u earn/lose 2% evasion luck)

But i go on the tree lvl 21, my evasion is 70% but when i remove 300~400 evasion i lose 2% for every gears i remove (68% => 66%, etc), but surprise if i add 482 evasion, i earn only 1 %... maybe evasion is nerfed after 70% no ?