Evasion Equation - Updated

2

Comments

  • Aeroboi - Heavens Tear
    Aeroboi - Heavens Tear Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    yeah it seems unlikely, but it or something else like it could explain why evasion dont seem to work,
  • OlieTheKing - Lost City
    OlieTheKing - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Thanks for posting this very useful, evasion is tricky to decide on, although 20% extra misses = 20% less damage youve got to consider things like > Odds of somone hitting a crit on you? dragons? stuns? evasion could stop these functional skills from hitting you which is way more valuable than reducing damage with physical resistance?
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    (Insert post theoretically asking if it could be beneficial to shard full evasion gems now that the formula has been found)

    (Hastily thrown together pwcalc)
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Aeroboi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    yeah it seems unlikely, but it or something else like it could explain why evasion dont seem to work,

    But if you think that evasion increases your survivability, evasion can never work. Evasion gives you a chance of avoiding damage (and a few status effects) but only sometimes, and since it's random there will always be times when it does nothing.
  • Thehate - Heavens Tear
    Thehate - Heavens Tear Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Well, pvp formula indeed has differences, at least 5 percent minimum evade possibility listed.
  • AIethea - Sanctuary
    AIethea - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Thehate - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Well, pvp formula indeed has differences, at least 5 percent minimum evade possibility listed.

    Where / how did you find this info?
  • AIethea - Sanctuary
    AIethea - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But if you think that evasion increases your survivability, evasion can never work. Evasion gives you a chance of avoiding damage (and a few status effects) but only sometimes, and since it's random there will always be times when it does nothing.

    I am not really here to debate if you should or shouldn't get evasion. However, its also wrong to mislead people off of own personal bias. Evasion DOES increase survivability, this is a given FACT. It is random however, so its usefulness is what people can and always will debate.

    In a long battle you can expect that your evasion realized will be seen in terms of reducing the damage you take overall. In a short battle, either luck is with you or its not. When you get lucky it can potentially be game changing. Increasing your evade increases the chances that you will get that all-to-important dodge and win the game.

    Do you count on that as your only line of defense? Kinda risky but if you get your evade high enough you could. This formula helps you understand what it would take to get your evasion that high...and the difficulties involved. Moreover, if you find a target with high evade how do you counter that? Accuracy. This formula is about way more than just "Should I shard evasion?" so stop looking at only one piece of the puzzle and thinking you've seen it all.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Where / how did you find this info?

    He runs around and ***** eye random people. I guess he also forgot to mention that max evasion rate is ~75%.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    He runs around and ***** eye random people. I guess he also forgot to mention that max evasion rate is ~75%.

    When I view a level 1 cleric with my jungle belt she still has 5% dodge rate on me while I have 95% dodge rate on her.
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  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Aeroboi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sounds to me like
    if Crit = True
    bypassed Evasion

    Idk food for thought

    Could test that with a demon BM proc'ing auto-crit with Demon Glacial Spike, while archer uses evade boost. Any misses would mean it doesn't use that.
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  • AIethea - Sanctuary
    AIethea - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    When I view a level 1 cleric with my jungle belt she still has 5% dodge rate on me while I have 95% dodge rate on her.

    Was this due to their natural evasion following the formula or was this a default minimum?
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    When I view a level 1 cleric with my jungle belt she still has 5% dodge rate on me while I have 95% dodge rate on her.

    The 75% applies to actual game play situations... with BM/archer attack another archer with blessing activated. I didn't bother checking the physical hit rate of an magic class... considering I don't expect to be meleed by any of them.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    blah blah

    Basically you don't know the definition of "max". The max evasion rate in PVP is 95%. Any lower value than that can't be the maximum by definition.
    Similarly the minimum evasion rate is 5%. This explains why my stun misses on a damn wizard with 200 evasion.
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  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    He runs around and ***** eye random people. I guess he also forgot to mention that max evasion rate is ~75%.

    Mm I'm pretty sure when scrubby is trying to smack me with his sword, he hits me much fewer than 1 time every 4 tries.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Basically you don't know the definition of "max". The max evasion rate in PVP is 95%. Any lower value than that can't be the maximum by definition.
    Similarly the minimum evasion rate is 5%. This explains why my stun misses on a damn wizard with 200 evasion.

    In that case I'll let you know the next time someone is trying to actually kill me with my 95% dodge rate against their attacks.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In that case I'll let you know the next time someone is trying to actually kill me with my 95% dodge rate against their attacks.

    I just used blessing of condor on a lvl 101 barb in SP and had 90% evasion on him. This is with 0 evasion gems and 0 evasion ornaments. Obviously its possible to get higher than your "max" of 75%.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    However, its also wrong to mislead people off of own personal bias. Evasion DOES increase survivability, this is a given FACT. It is random however, so its usefulness is what people can and always will debate.

    In a long battle you can expect that your evasion realized will be seen in terms of reducing the damage you take overall. In a short battle, either luck is with you or its not.

    My point of view is somewhat different from yours, but only subtly.

    You are right that in a short battle, evasion can radically increase your odds of survival. Also, if you are concerned with breaking up a chain of attacks, evasion becomes even better for your survival, since each attack is another opportunity for evasion to kick in. (For example, if you are looking for one miss in a five attack sequence: 19% evasion gives you 65% chance of a miss, 20% evasion gives you 67% chance of a miss and 21% evasion gives you 69% chance of a miss.)

    However, if you are fighting a long term battle (like, against a boss), and you are just shy of having enough health to survive that boss's hardest blow, then you cannot rely on evasion and the long duration for the fight means you will probably die, where a little added health would have kept you alive. Put differently, evasion helps when you do not have adequate healing (which I think characterizes any short battle where you die), but does not help you survive when you have enough healing.
  • AIethea - Sanctuary
    AIethea - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    My point of view is somewhat different from yours, but only subtly.

    Nothing I said was an opinion or viewpoint. I have abstained from giving one because it is not the subject matter here nor do I think it pertinent. If you would like to know I think evasion is only useful in a long term fight, not in a short term because I do not like relying on luck. To be useful in a short term you would need a very high chance which seems overly hard to achieve / easy to counter. That is an opinion and I don't wish to discuss opinions further.

    This is fact, in a long battle your evasion will be more or less realized as you will dodge attacks. Those dodges mean less damage that you took and therefore less healing you require to stay alive. So yes, dodge IS useful even when you have enough healing. How useful is thee very question but it is not in doubt that it is useful to some degree.

    It also will slow down the rate of damage incoming. You are correct that you won't survive if you don't have enough HP to survive the largest attack, this is general tanking theory and a requirement which evasion will not overcome (except if you are extremely lucky). That is not the only way you can die though. Taking several large hits in a row can also kill you and a little extra hp won't save you but evasion can.

    Again, you need to look at the bigger picture rather than tunnel visioning on one small subsection. It is quite clear you have never played a game such as WoW where the encounters are very finely tuned. The dodge stat over there is highly sought after and a requirement on tanks for end game encounters. I understand the equations are different here and the community spits on evasion, but its all been based on hearsay. If evasion sucks then lets prove it; anecdotal accounts and poorly constructed handwaving BS shows nothing other than ignorance.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Nothing I said was an opinion or viewpoint.

    AIethea... everyone has a viewpoint.

    Beyond that, the concept that I used "survivability" to label, you have indirectly used "general tanking theory" to label. Neither of our labels are perfect, but I am ok with that because this is how english works.

    Also, especially in your "tunnel vision" paragraph, you have been ascribing to me motives and concepts which were expressed by other people. I do have issues with tunnel vision and over-focus, but issues that you describe here mostly belong to other people. (But you are correct that I have not played that other game.)

    Meanwhile, your comments about finely tuned encounters shows quite a lot about the character of your viewpoint.

    And, we are not disputing issues of fact, but issues of ... scope?

    Anyways, survivability is typically used in, in my experience, in the context of cumulative distribution functions. And CDFs can be used to meaningfully describe boss encounters. But using them for PvP here creates some difficulties, because even simple PvP tactics take us out of the realm of CDFs and into the realm of markov processes (you need to use branch cuts before you can apply CDFs in PvP).

    This means, to me, that to use the unqualified term "survivability" to characterize PvP in this game requires "tunnel vision". But, that is ok: I can do tunnel vision!
  • AIethea - Sanctuary
    AIethea - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    AIethea... everyone has a viewpoint.
    But if you think that evasion increases your survivability, evasion can never work.
    And, we are not disputing issues of fact, but issues of ... scope?

    Yes we have viewpoints, and the 2nd quote of yours is a viewpoint which is highly counter productive especially when given by a known name in the community. I did give you my viewpoint in the last posting, but aside from that this thread has been about the equation itself. People will debate how useful evasion / accuracy is, and is the point of finding that equation, that is scope. However, blanket statements w/o anything to support it is not looking for answers and not what I want.
    Meanwhile, your comments about finely tuned encounters shows quite a lot about the character of your viewpoint.

    Really now? I am quite curious to know. Other games, such as WoW make it a point to do just that, finely tune the encounter. And its not my opinion either, the developers come out and say it over and over.

    I used the term "general tanking theory" because I did see it as minorly different from survivability but they are basically the same. In terms of survival I see it as the entire group whereas the former I see as the a single entity, the tank. Generally speaking, the tank needs to survive for the group to so they are related. Symantec aside, I agreed that the tank cannot be 1 shot.

    I could speak of your character here but I also understand that you started throwing in statistical terms to try and give credence to your claim where I questioned it. In the case of 1 shotting a tank, it could be more simply put that if it can happen, it will happen; the question is just when. Far more people understand this as opposed to a CDF. Statistics seems to be your background and kudos, mine is very basic compared I am sure. I am an engineer. However we look at it though, back up your method and results and always try to look at the big picture.

    --Hopefully last of the long posts. My apologies to all the people who probably don't care =)
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yes we have viewpoints, and the 2nd quote of yours is a viewpoint which is highly counter productive especially when given by a known name in the community.

    Ok... I apologize for stating that issue like that. I still think my underlying point was valid, but I agree that for this thread I should have qualified it:

    In PvP, against someone using physical attacks, increasing evasion does increase a person's odds of surviving any specific sequence of attacks where their survival can be in doubt.

    (But survivability can be a confusing concept in PvP, especially in some contexts where evasion is significant.)
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Really now? I am quite curious to know. Other games, such as WoW make it a point to do just that, finely tune the encounter. And its not my opinion either, the developers come out and say it over and over.

    And here the developers do not even speak english...

    But we might ponder questions like "tuned in what way?" and "tuned to what end?" Anyways, if nothing else the finely tuned bit tells me that your point of view was centered in a different game.
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I used the term "general tanking theory" because I did see it as minorly different from survivability but they are basically the same. In terms of survival I see it as the entire group whereas the former I see as the a single entity, the tank. Generally speaking, the tank needs to survive for the group to so they are related. Symantec aside, I agreed that the tank cannot be 1 shot.

    Ok, though this is another context where I have oversimplified: it's not just "1 shot" where health matters for surviviability on bosses -- bosses typically have an attack rate of one attack every 3 seconds, and a magic attack once every 8 seconds. Meanwhile self healing available from a charm has a cooldown of 10 seconds for solo archers, and that healing is proportional to total HP. So archer "self healing" on a boss depends on total hp in a way that evasion cannot replace.
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I could speak of your character here but I also understand that you started throwing in statistical terms to try and give credence to your claim where I questioned it. In the case of 1 shotting a tank, it could be more simply put that if it can happen, it will happen; the question is just when. Far more people understand this as opposed to a CDF. Statistics seems to be your background and kudos, mine is very basic compared I am sure. I am an engineer. However we look at it though, back up your method and results and always try to look at the big picture.

    Actually, "CDF" was something I picked up after playing this game. The only reason I was studying them was to try and characterize the math I was stumbling over when I was trying to work out my odds of success in combat here. I picked up the only general definition I have for "survivability" in the same wikipedia article, where previously my definition for survivability had been the pwi specific equation HP/(1-DEF/(DEF+40*LEV)).

    And I should perhaps have mentioned the concept of using that equation for the definition of survivability, since that also influenced my use of terminology. But it was not my only thought and after your bit about how your background is from a different game I decided to discard that paragraph.

    I have a habit of oversimplifying. I usually am under the impression that most people do not care how I think.
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    --Hopefully last of the long posts. My apologies to all the people who probably don't care =)

    Meanwhile, I probably annoy them far worse than you do.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I should also point out something that has been getting no discussion that I have seen:

    The archer skill "Winged Shell" interacts nicely with evasion, in the context of short battles. In essence, it gives you an extra chance for evasion to mean something. (And, of course, Deaden Nerves fills a similar role for Assassins.)
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I've gotten Armaed for 12k with winged shell on...Yup, that means the Arma reached ~60k+...
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Meanwhile, I probably annoy them far worse than you do.

    I'm sure Kiyoshi finds you absolutely adorable.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
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    Qui: b:dirty
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I've gotten Armaed for 12k with winged shell on...Yup, that means the Arma reached ~60k+...

    No it means you have really crappy pdef.
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  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I have a habit of oversimplifying. I usually am under the impression that most people do not care how I think.

    I like to read your posts, then again I lurked the archer forums for ages before actually posting lol. I've got to have at least 1 active sage archer I respect on the forums ^^

    Plus, it would be boring if everyone agreed on everything all the time. This sort of counterpoint is probably why the archer forums is so active compared to some of the other classes. That and all the good archers (mostly from sanctuary) posting things of interest. :P
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  • AIethea - Sanctuary
    AIethea - Sanctuary Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I should also point out something that has been getting no discussion that I have seen:

    The archer skill "Winged Shell" interacts nicely with evasion, in the context of short battles. In essence, it gives you an extra chance for evasion to mean something. (And, of course, Deaden Nerves fills a similar role for Assassins.)

    Personally, I don't see how evasion makes this any different. Its a damage shield and just gives you a little buffer. Evasion will make it feel like it lasts longer perhaps? I'm not sure how defense works in regards to the shield but that could have a similar effect as well.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I just used blessing of condor on a lvl 101 barb in SP and had 90% evasion on him. This is with 0 evasion gems and 0 evasion ornaments. Obviously its possible to get higher than your "max" of 75%.

    Must be nice to be able to check an opponent's gear in a real fight... to bad I never had that luxury.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Ast likes to play with her food before going for the kill!

    It's really too bad that barbs have 100% hit rate skills...stun from a mighty swing to the face would cut your extra evasion duration very short...
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ast likes to play with her food before going for the kill!

    It's really too bad that barbs have 100% hit rate skills...stun from a mighty swing to the face would cut your extra evasion duration very short...

    Suddenly I feel like I want to be killed by Ast
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    AIethea - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Personally, I don't see how evasion makes this any different. Its a damage shield and just gives you a little buffer. Evasion will make it feel like it lasts longer perhaps? I'm not sure how defense works in regards to the shield but that could have a similar effect as well.

    Let us say that you have a 20% chance to evade, ok? That is your chance to evade one attack.

    But if you have a 20% chance to evade one attack this means that you have a 36% chance to evade one attack if you are attacked twice.

    Or, from a different point of view: evasion can keep your winged shell from popping.

    Or, put differently, if you could evade most attacks and you did not have enough health to survive one attack, winged shell might let you survive that one hit.

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