Other classes prefferring sage veno's over demon?
cre8ive
Posts: 0 Arc User
I've noticed lately that instead of advertising for a veno there's a lot of people advertising for "sage veno" or "sage amp" not just in Nirvana but on bh's and fc now.
Since i chose to go demon i find this rather annoying lol, sure thers the extra 5% on sage amp but doesn't the extra 6 seconds on demon amp make up for that to some extent? Not to mention the extra 15% reflect from demon bramble adding up to some serious damage when all the melee classes are kept brambled?
I honestly believe that each culti path is equally valid it just depends on your play style which path you choose, seems kind of sad that nearly all the new veno's i know are going sage because the other classes think sage is the only way to go for a veno
Since i chose to go demon i find this rather annoying lol, sure thers the extra 5% on sage amp but doesn't the extra 6 seconds on demon amp make up for that to some extent? Not to mention the extra 15% reflect from demon bramble adding up to some serious damage when all the melee classes are kept brambled?
I honestly believe that each culti path is equally valid it just depends on your play style which path you choose, seems kind of sad that nearly all the new veno's i know are going sage because the other classes think sage is the only way to go for a veno
Post edited by cre8ive on
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I guess sage amp is better on bosses that die before sage amp wears off.
Not all that long ago, I'd have said that such things hardly deserve the name 'bosses'. But then aps happened.
As a sage veno, I'm kinda happy to be vindicated, but it is a bit sad.0 -
Hahah I have noticed this too. Before I was going to go sage almost purely on amp. I'm glad I didnt.
There are good skills on both sides. Which is 'better' depends on the situation.
But of all things venos shouldnt really be discriminated on culti for something like amp though.
25% for 26 seconds
OR
30% for 20 seconds
I would take either, one doesnt exactly seem better than the other. 20%/25%/30% is better than 0%
Also on the demon side they have demon venomous (wood debuff), demon nova(30% 'dragon' amp), demon iron (reduce def to 0 b:dirty), demon bramble(75% reflect b:pleased)
on sage side .. sage soul degen (20% hp debuff.. that'd be nice in HH) sage iron (decent debuff and lasts long) sage purge (nice in tw b:chuckle)
Those are the only ones that speak out to me in a squad really...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
There is no shame in losing when there is no honor in winning.0 -
there's plenty of good arguments to go sage over demon, and the other way around, but the amps are pretty well balanced in my opinion. if something dies inside of twenty seconds... geez, i might not bother amping it at all, sage or demon. what difference does a maximum of six more seconds do?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.0
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It's mainly something you see in world chat squads and most likely from people who don't always know what they're talking about.
First, it was 5APS or GTFO.
Then, 5APS w/ 1 veno or GTFO.
Here, 5APS w/ Sage Amp or GTFO.
Yes, in the short run, Sage Amp > Demon Amp. But there are plenty of other things Demon venos can do to balance it out.
The preference for Sage Amp probably comes from one of two things:
1. Ignorance of how the cultis are balanced.
2. Sage Amp being a measure of "Idiot Proof".
FWIW, I've never been rejected from a squad because my Demon Amp was inferior.0 -
Basically, APS changed everything.
But there are definitely up and down sides to both sage and demon. It's just the people that decide that only a specific "type" of that veno is good and everything else sucks.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you so much ForsakenX for the sig b:cute0 -
It's mainly something you see in world chat squads and most likely from people who don't always know what they're talking about.the people that decide that only a specific "type" of that veno is good and everything else sucks.
I asked a BM who was advertising in world chat for a "sage veno only" for his fb why he wanted only a sage veno? and his anser was "the only good veno is a sage veno, demon veno = fail veno" ....didn't know whether to laugh or get angry lol
It's obvious from the replies that at least my fellow veno's know that both sides have their own advantages i just wish the other classes wouldn't be so predjudiced
I don't regret goin demon at all i love my 10.6 m/per sec speed, demon bramble, demon lending hand etc. hopefully the "sage amp only" is just a fad and i won't have to keep defending my choice every time someone asks why i went demon instead of sage lolThere are good skills on both sides. Which is 'better' depends on the situation.
b:victory0 -
I asked a BM who was advertising in world chat for a "sage veno only" for his fb why he wanted only a sage veno? and his anser was "the only good veno is a sage veno, demon veno = fail veno" ....didn't know whether to laugh or get angry lol
It's obvious from the replies that at least my fellow veno's know that both sides have their own advantages i just wish the other classes wouldn't be so predjudiced
I don't regret goin demon at all i love my 10.6 m/per sec speed, demon bramble, demon lending hand etc. hopefully the "sage amp only" is just a fad and i won't have to keep defending my choice every time someone asks why i went demon instead of sage lol
b:victory
Exactly. It's just that this game is so obsessed with APS and biased towards so many things, we only get naive players that forget what the point of a game is. The game turns into a competition.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you so much ForsakenX for the sig b:cute0 -
IMO any veno is a godsend in runs (you increase damage ever so much b:dirty not to mention spark passing and aoe seal..) so im not picky about demon or sage. Only time i would prefer sage really would be if my boyfriend isnt in squad(sage rib strike) and there's no archer, sage soul degen ftw.
But other than that all cutie foxes are welcome in my squads any timeYeah my sig doesn't match my name...i would say im being all clever and trying to confuse people...but im really just too lazy to make a new one
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Always been preference between sage and demon when it comes to PVE and instance .
Sage got :
-Amplify 30% more damage .
-Soul Degen reduce Max HP by 20% .
-Ironwood that always works .
Amplify is pretty good balanced between both culti . Not the case for the 2 others :
-Demon soul degen reduce evasion o.o
-Ironwood never or barely works .
Demon actually got Demon Nova which is completly awesome (curse still works on boss that can be amplify) .
Demon summer sprint ( yes teach me how to purify when you are stunned/slept i'm still trying to figure out ) .
When it comes to PVP and TW the only things i like in sage veno is the aoe purge . But i wouldn't trade my demon culti for the sage one . Then it's all about people preference .0 -
Itori - Lost City wrote: »Hahah I have noticed this too. Before I was going to go sage almost purely on amp. I'm glad I didnt.
There are good skills on both sides. Which is 'better' depends on the situation.
But of all things venos shouldnt really be discriminated on culti for something like amp though.
25% for 26 seconds
OR
30% for 20 seconds
I would take either, one doesnt exactly seem better than the other. 20%/25%/30% is better than 0%
Also on the demon side they have demon venomous (wood debuff), demon nova(30% 'dragon' amp), demon iron (reduce def to 0 b:dirty), demon bramble(75% reflect b:pleased)
on sage side .. sage soul degen (20% hp debuff.. that'd be nice in HH) sage iron (decent debuff and lasts long) sage purge (nice in tw b:chuckle)
Those are the only ones that speak out to me in a squad really...
Almost fell also to the ''go sage or you fail'' trap as well...much as the lure of nirvy is strong, i still feel i don't have to compromise my play style to please some people (RL is rough, don't bring it here in pwi) I refuse to be just classified as a AA herc sage veno with sage amp just so I can go with squads.
It is sad that now we have a new way to discriminate a veno..before it was ''go herc/nix or gtfo'' now it's ''go AA herc/nix sage amp veno or gtfo'' Some hi-level venos in my fac felt left out of nirvy because of this ''we need sage amp'' thingy some bonehead aps players ask. There are many ways that a demon veno can adjust to make up for the ''lost'' amp %.
I am proud to be a demon LA golem fox atm...I dream of going HA/AA someday. I won't trade armor for squishy robes. Hopefully when I can have my demon amp and soul degen I can show my fac what they're missing when they turn their back on a well-seasoned demon veno for nirv.
Demon Fox forever...0 -
Since i chose to go demon i find this rather annoying lol, sure thers the extra 5% on sage amp but doesn't the extra 6 seconds on demon amp make up for that to some extent? Not to mention the extra 15% reflect from demon bramble adding up to some serious damage when all the melee classes are kept brambled?
First off, Sage amp is better than demon amp because in a decent squad the boss dies long before 26 seconds. Bramble damage really is nothing next to people dishing out 100k+ dps a second. Someone else mentioned demon speed burst as another positive,... And not that I'm only picking on Demons, but Sage Soul Degen is out the window too, although its awesome in TT it doesn't reduce hp in Nirvana.
I'm one of the people who has told squads from the start that adding a veno to the squad is the most effective, but I still see sage veno as a better option. They are reliable debuffers and can replace a cleric in a squad with a constant debuff. Not that I'm going to waste two seconds longer trying to find a sage veno over a demon veno, because the difference isn't huuuuge. To me its similar to taking a 5.0 BM without demon HF, or shouting in WC for 15 minutes to find one with demon HF to save you 60-75 seconds a run.
Many demon veno's have given up on casting Ironwood scarab, it seems. I don't even see the animation for it and if I question the veno I hear "it never procs anyways."... Then spam it? And if thats the case we can argue that Sage Veno's have a 30% amp + a 40% pdef debuff which would be about a 45% increase in damage and demon's "only" have a 25% amp.
Demon Parasitic Nova is awesome and can be used as a second or main amp but its one of the rarest skillbooks in the game and I'd guess less that 1% of demon veno's have it. Can we really consider it? Also, does it stack with other skills?
Both classes have the option of using Myriad Rainbow. For sage, this means they have more than a 25% chance at armor break, but a demon's ironwood has only a 20%. For Demon's this mean they have a second chance at causing an armor break. Sage's (and this is more about player quality, than culti) tend to use myriad more, I think because they don't have a more spammable skill that causes armor break. Is it true Myriad can only proc Break Armor if their isn't already a pdef debuff on the boss?
Lastly, because Sage has a more reliable debuffing/amping system this means people surviving on only bloodpaint can count on more powerful heals returned the entire time, not 20% of the time they have great heal, 80% of the time they get much less.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »First off, Sage amp is better than demon amp because in a decent squad the boss dies long before 26 seconds.
if the boss dies that quickly, i honestly have to ask: what difference does amp do? a handful of seconds this way or that, if the squad puts out that much damage then you can cope for that bit of time.
edit: if the bosses drop as quickly as that, then you'll need two venos in squad --- because you'll be starting on the next target before amp has cooled back down again!Sage Soul Degen is out the window too, although its awesome in TT it doesn't reduce hp in Nirvana.
and nirvana's all you care about?Many demon veno's have given up on casting Ironwood scarab, it seems. I don't even see the animation for it and if I question the veno I hear "it never procs anyways."...
which is why demon ironwood is one skill i'm not planning to buy if i do go demon. personal choice of mine, though, that. they can and should still use pet pierce to get SOME armor break done. (and that's one thing your demon/sage debuff calculations seemed to lack, any consideration of pets' debuffs.)Then spam it?
in your "decent squad" 26 seconds, doing nothing but spamming demon ironwood would fire it... twice. (with some other debuffing done during its first 8-second cooldown.) yaaay. i wouldn't bother either.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.0 -
Does Demon Nova not work on Nirvana bosses?
I agree with Sakubatou's last post.
Squads are also looking for burst dmg at points where the boss is the weakest and most debuffed. That extra 5s may not fall under an HF/Amp/Tangling Mire/ etc interval.0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »First off, Sage amp is better than demon amp because in a decent squad the boss dies long before 26 seconds. Bramble damage really is nothing next to people dishing out 100k+ dps a second.
o_o what is your definition of 'decent'?
I guess my first nv squads were fail then, didnt really keep track of the time but my demon brambles (15 mins) wore of after like.. 2~3 runs. My faction was just taking me cause it was 2x drops and I had turned 100 recently.
Squad was something like.. BM, 2 sin, veno, aps barb, and me. The other veno was sage, but neither of us had our culti's amp at the time. I guess thats why we went so slow and we both had to amp on 1 boss :P boss lasted a little longer than 20 sec, like I said I didnt pay attention. Not trying to break a world record. We both used myraids, but with the barb.. I think we yelled once cause we had gotten armour break but he devoured.
edit: another thing.. when I was asking higher level venos on culti, (even some non-venos that liked to throw in their opinions) Most the people who PvP said demon was the way to go, that sages regretted going sage. Then I met some people who said sage was the way to go, "if you plan on doing instances and not just pvp" they regretted going demon.
I kinda wonder how people did things BEFORE getting to 89.. but it's so easy in this game now.. still, demon doesnt make you bad at pve and sage doesnt make you pvp. The only thing culti does is improve skills your class already have.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
There is no shame in losing when there is no honor in winning.0 -
Demon Nova is the same curse as HF, but only 30% more damage . Its stackable with amp/EP . So yes it does work on nirvana boss that dont resist amplification damage .
I did it many times until someone told me . O.O Demon Nova Amplify ???
Edit : Also it's rare cause people expect to find it in AH or try to buy it from others . I farmed PoF and gambled mine . Compare the Demon veno communauty with the sage one and you would understand why you consider it as rare . No one is gambling Demon Veno lv99 skills, so if you want it, go work for it xD0 -
Nine_Lives - Raging Tide wrote: »Almost fell also to the ''go sage or you fail'' trap as well...much as the lure of nirvy is strong, i still feel i don't have to compromise my play style to please some people (RL is rough, don't bring it here in pwi) I refuse to be just classified as a AA herc sage veno with sage amp just so I can go with squads.
It is sad that now we have a new way to discriminate a veno..before it was ''go herc/nix or gtfo'' now it's ''go AA herc/nix sage amp veno or gtfo'' Some hi-level venos in my fac felt left out of nirvy because of this ''we need sage amp'' thingy some bonehead aps players ask. There are many ways that a demon veno can adjust to make up for the ''lost'' amp %.
I am proud to be a demon LA golem fox atm...I dream of going HA/AA someday. I won't trade armor for squishy robes. Hopefully when I can have my demon amp and soul degen I can show my fac what they're missing when they turn their back on a well-seasoned demon veno for nirv.
Demon Fox forever...
There was only one troll I know of in the forums that ragged on demon venos and they've been banned multiple times. I think their latest incarnation is JanusZeal.
I don't blame the squad makers for trying to find what appears to work best. They just tend to be ignorant about it. In situations like this: take matters into your own hands and make your own squad. Start showing them what you're capable of and if you compare: you'll get noticed and win favor for your culti.
Personally if a veno wants to get in on a high aps squad; I think they should have a very good weapon + great dmg (pure), survivability as well as L11 skills. With the amount of coin it takes to get 4.0 base aps: a veno or any other class shouldn't be able to just hop on and ride along on the cheap with others who've paid a fortune.
Assassins deal with the same issues: Squad makers aren't yet asking for base aps; so Sage Assassins are discriminated against. Also; Sage Subsea Strike pwns Demons but hasn't been noticed as a factor.
You can try reasoning with the squad maker. I've got my Lv.98 cleric into every 100+ squad I applied to. I think I got my 4.0 sage assassin into every 5.0 Nirvana squad I tried. The only issue there is that others may get pissed off at squad maker for not sticking to the WC.
Be grateful you can get into more Nirvana squads as a veno than other mage classes! My Wizard is just hording 99 key piles.0 -
LenieClarke - Heavens Tear;14356391]if the boss dies that quickly, i honestly have to ask: what difference does amp do? a handful of seconds this way or that, if the squad puts out that much damage then you can cope for that bit of time.
HF = 100% amp, Subsea or EP = 20-30% amp, Tangling Mire = about 50% less defense or about 30% more damage, and a physical debuff of 30% is about 15-20% more damage. That means if there is a Veno's Amp its doing 30% more on a fully debuffed boss. 30% Amp+ HF would be a 60% increase.... See how this stacks and multiplies quickly?
Actually, lets try to theorize the math. X damage, HF doubles it, so=2x, EP increases it by 20% so 2x times 1.2=2.4x. Tangling Mires physical debuff of about 50% is an actual increase of about 30% damage, so 2.4x times 1.3 = 3.12x, then a plain 30 debuff is another 15% damage or so = 3.588x. So if you have a fully debuffed/amped boss you will be doing about 358.8% damage on it before amp, and amp increase THAT by 30%. That means the 5% difference of sage and demon is much larger than we expected. With amp that's 4.664 times your normal damage. This is theoretical and speculation, but you can see why veno's are wanted and why bosses blow up so fast.
edit: if the bosses drop as quickly as that, then you'll need two venos in squad --- because you'll be starting on the next target before amp has cooled back down again!
Have ran into this problem but between teleporting time and walking up to the boss its about 30 seconds anyways.
and nirvana's all you care about?
*Points to thread topic.* Welcome to forums. We're talking about why WC squads are picking sage over demon. 99% of the time its because they are forming Nirvana squads and want a veno for amps and debuffs. I'm not challenging whether a sage veno is better to have in your squad if you are going to do a BH51 or go pk.
which is why demon ironwood is one skill i'm not planning to buy if i do go demon. personal choice of mine, though, that. they can and should still use pet pierce to get SOME armor break done. (and that's one thing your demon/sage debuff calculations seemed to lack, any consideration of pets' debuffs.)
Ya, I go back and forth on whether I'd learn Ironwood or not. I think I would and if it failed I'd try Myriad Rainbow human, then I'd try Myriad fox. And pets aren't popular in vana because if the boss randoms and seals on them the pet runs, the boss chases and pulls away from all the aps dd's who then have to chase it and lose their sparks.
in your "decent squad" 26 seconds, doing nothing but spamming demon ironwood would fire it... twice. (with some other debuffing done during its first 8-second cooldown.) yaaay. i wouldn't bother either.
Valid point. The unampable bosses take longer and an armor break during them is awesome. But veno's are brought to vana's for one reason, to amp/debuff so we may as well try to get a debuff in or we will continue to make our class look bad and people will continue to neglect venos usefulness in vana.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
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Oh lol, I remember JanusZeal...he was some fail guy trying to tell me that HA veno is a viable build for PvP LOL...
Huy gaiz i r HA wif fox sage tryin 2 fight r9 archer LUL, i r gonna WINNNNN
^ LOLI seriously wonder: people who don't RPK, if you play the board game "Sorry!" and you roll the dice so that you land on an opponents piece and send it back to the beginning, do you sincerely apologize and ask everyone if you can have a do-over roll so you can give your victim another chance? It's a god damn game..
--LongKnife0 -
Like Kurushimii said, Demon Nova stacks with everything except for HF. In Nirvana, I tend to time mine to land between HF's. (My static squad only has 1 BM.) And the book really isn't that hard to get. The cube is fairly easy for a 90+ veno to run and I actually got Nova as my first and second books.
As for getting Armor Break to proc, if you're spamming myriads and D. Ironwood, it'll generally land on one of the three. If you're that much of a stickler about it, keep Ironwood at level 10 or put Pierce on a pet.0 -
Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »The cube is fairly easy for a 90+ veno to run and I actually got Nova as my first and second books.
b:cry so lucky i kept getting crush vigor, til i came hopeless, openned book and see tadaaa parasic nova . Too bad you're not on my server, i would have made you open the book u.u0 -
Aww Kuru xD I got Demon Parasitic Nova on my second try.
Personally, I never been rejected from squads for being Demon and actually I haven't seen people asking for Sage Venomancer specifically, but that could be just me and I haven't been on too much either.
I use Amplify Damage as soon as the cooldown if off, I still spam Ironwood and the Myriads so the proc isn't all that rare. I have Extreme Poison and Tangling Mire which I spam as much as possible. My genie is also especially made for debuffing with lots of dex to make EP last quite a few seconds. Demon Crush Vigor and Lending Hand help me keep up my chi quite well so I can use Demon Parasitic Nova quite often too (despite spamming ironwood and myriads). I also have Pierce on my DD pet (which I use 80% of the time anyway since I don't get to tank too much endgame) which is 36% physical defence reduction (close enough to sage ironwood) that I spam as well along with the other pet skills.
I've been in some of those crazy 5.0 APS squads and we finished before Bramble was of (that means less than 15 minutes, its duration) so really, the difference between Sage and Demon isn't all that big when the Demon Venomancer knows what to do and how to make up for things they lack.
People will always have issues though. Like how they argued for Herc vs. no Herc. I guess next is Sage vs. Demon. For me it doesn't matter, Demon path has many many nice things to offer that fit my playstyle, I'm totally happy with my choice. Sage has its own good stuff to offer. Last note, indeed it is rare to find Venomancers with Demon Parasitic Nova but I also think a lot of Venomancers don't even have lvl11 Amplify endgame to begin with. I personally worked to have all my skills (and with the help of some people) before I hit 100 with the exception of Parasitic Nova which I got a couple of weeks after via Cube.[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0 -
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Actually, yes, nab, since I play AA, I can use rank 9.
...HURR DURR faceroll kb and WINNNNNNN
HA veno against nirvana/r9 psy = dead, or even +12 r8 psy = dead, so Idk how mentioning psy in your argument helps you at all lol b:shutupI seriously wonder: people who don't RPK, if you play the board game "Sorry!" and you roll the dice so that you land on an opponents piece and send it back to the beginning, do you sincerely apologize and ask everyone if you can have a do-over roll so you can give your victim another chance? It's a god damn game..
--LongKnife0 -
Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »Personally, I never been rejected from squads for being Demon and actually I haven't seen people asking for Sage Venomancer specifically, but that could be just me and I haven't been on too much either.
This. ^
Nit picking over 5% diff, it's ridic. b:chuckle
People that hate on demon venos have yet to realize how sexy we are.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Kali - Raging Tide wrote: »This. ^
Nit picking over 5% diff, it's ridic. b:chuckle
People that hate on demon venos have yet to realize how sexy we are.
5% can translate into 10% ore more time wasted in Nirvana. They're that picky with melee DD's, why not venos too?0 -
I agree that nitpicking over 5% is pretty ridiculous, and furthermore, there's no way to tell that a sage veno has sage amp without heavily scrutinizing and micro-managing damage to that small extent.
There's no reason to be picky over that, especially when demon veno's have a sufficient amp, that lasts 6 seconds longer, which can easily offset the 5% if the squad needs that time to deal damage, and when armor break (the effect of a lucky myriad rainbow or a demon ironwood) doesn't proc nearly as often with myriad versus ironwood.
When I duo Nirvana with my wife, our fighting team (we use two of our alt buffers that don't fight) consists of me using a sin and veno, and her using a bm and cleric. I've noticed that when combining amp with HF and armor break (this is more to emphasize armor break since we're in the veno forum) in the span of one level 10 HF easily does 1-2m more damage on bosses with a 4 aps sage sin and 5 aps demon bm. So it would make sense to be able to hit armor break as often as possible. This is what has had me considering switching to demon on my veno (the one on her own account) and attaining the human form myriad, because it is that effective. People making a fuss over, or denying veno's over, sage amp versus other amps are really making an issue into something that's not, furthermore, ignoring armor break which obviously demon veno's get more of. However, I use my veno primarily in fox form to maximize DPS, so when I re-stat her down to LA for a mix of magic-melee I will consider the effect of her current sage ironwood compared to armor break.0 -
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i just cant help but laugh... like insanely hard.
a good few months well before the aps craze hit and i chose sage, people were telling me it was a dumb decision and prior to that ushering me to go demon....
back then it was demon or qtfo.
now... XD bwahahahaha.All you need is something to believe in. -Solar_one. <--
mah snoockums, mah hubby, mah eberyfing. 
Lag; You think yours is bad ? It took Jesus 3 days to Respawn !
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Current games aren't -games- anymore, just light shows operated by win buttons, lol."
"ah sh*t, were gonna die!.... but it's still cool!" -INTMDATOR0 -
Kali - Raging Tide wrote: »Maybe, maybe not, who cares. A few seconds more spent in an instance is no diff, jmo. Nit picking, thats all. b:chuckle
It's not a few seconds. Have you even run this instance much?
Do you kill the adds in the first room, if not, and if so: why? Do you run from the boss that 1 shots most people? -If so or if not; why? 5% is a significant difference that can translate into much more. High aps squads are favored because they can avoid time killing events.0
![http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]](http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
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