Nirvana - Full squad Sin Vs Barb

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary
BerserkBeast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
edited August 2011 in Assassin
Question

What is more effective(DD wise),in Nirvana:

- A full Sin Squad
- A 5 Sin Squad + 1 Barb spamming Devour(50% less physical defense - can be spammed)

> In case of an average squad of 2.86 / 3.33 aps sins with +5 Weapons
> In case of an hax squad of 4 aps R9 +12 everything Sins.

....?
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Post edited by BerserkBeast - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    The gear you have is actually pretty much irrelevant.

    The question isn't too easy to answer, at least not accurately.

    And the parameters you've given are pretty much useless. Simplified version of the events goes so that the pdef reduction has to give 20% more DPS. Of course, this isn't true because Strength of Titans gives you more damage. And then we have to know the exact parameters of the example sin, such as their exact stats and gear.

    However, it IS obviously true that if the pdef debuff gives you 20% more DPS, then you're safe.

    It also depends on whether the squad is cycling Tangling Mire or not, because the 20% increase in DPS will come easier if you have a lot of pdef debuffs.

    Also, neither of your squads is ideal for Nirvana. Ideal nirvana squads tend to get a Venomancer. And your second squad is redundant: At that point, you'll be doing nirvanas so fast that any "improvement" will give at best some seconds saved off. And if you're already doing the runs in <10 minutes, I doubt anyone cares for an extra 15 seconds.

    Though, if I had to wager a guess, I'd say that the Devour barb is a bad idea.
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    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Question

    What is more effective(DD wise),in Nirvana:

    - A full Sin Squad
    - A 5 Sin Squad + 1 Barb spamming Devour(50% less physical defense - can be spammed)
    ....?

    Neither.

    5 Sin squad + 1 BM with demon HF. It would be the equivalent of having 10 Sins plus 2 BMs attack the boss for the next 9 seconds. No boss would survive halfway past the first spark cycle. (Those bosses that can't be amped, Bm could use glacial spike for same 50% defense reduction).

    /thread
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Neither.

    5 Sin squad + 1 BM with demon HF. It would be the equivalent of having 10 Sins plus 2 BMs attack the boss for the next 9 seconds. No boss would survive halfway past the first spark cycle. (Those bosses that can't be amped, Bm could use glacial spike for same 50% defense reduction).

    /thread

    ... Except that most bosses in Nirvana are immune to HF. On that basis, you could argue for Venos for Amp or Sage sins for Sage Subsea.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Arshies - Sanctuary
    Arshies - Sanctuary Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Half vana bosses are immune to Amp.dmg, HF & Subsea like Olbaze said.

    FYI:
    Area 1-Boss: Infernal Sovereign - Working
    Area 2-Boss: Noxious Sovereign - Not working
    Area 3-Boss: Vampiric Sovereign - Working
    Area 4-Boss: Demonic Dictator - Not Working
    Boss: Demonic Tyrant - Working
    Boss: Demonic Sovereign (2xdrop) - Not Working
    Area 5-Boss: Ashuras Tyrant - Working
    Boss: Ashuras Dictator - Not Working
    Boss: Ashuras Sovereign (2xDrop) - Not Working
    Area 6-Boss: Goldwing Phoenix - Not Working
    Boss: Arbiter of Flame - Working
    Boss: Nether Queen - Not Working
    Area 7-Boss: Vanished Ancestor - Working
    Boss: Enchanted Ancestor - Not Working

    I used to run mad clericless vana with sins x2, BM x2, barb and me (sage veno) all 5.0aps except me Dx
    Also I think this squad version goes balanced on the buffs, plus the veno can lend on the squad members if they need so.
    venos are goods debuff machine on bosses even if Amp./soul are not working.
    OfC as better gear/aps/refines more smoothy run and faster you are gonna run.
    Always remind to bring with you a genie with Tangling mire and cast it on every boss, specially in the ones immunes to Amp.dmg, HF & Subsea and when your squad does Demon/Sage sparks.
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    Arshies - Sanctuary
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    It's almost impossible to give an accurate answer, since there is no info on which build the sins have. However, since you're talking clericless runs, on the "average" setup you pretty much need barb hp buff. On the "hax" setup, the hp buff won't make much difference, but neither will that 6th person. If you got 5 sins with +12 r9/vana, a 6th or devour won't matter. Personally I'd prefer barb in that case, for hp and titans that make it 100% sure a charm won't tick, or use a crabmeat, even at annoying bosses like chicken.

    The ideal fast squad would be, imo, barb + veno + bm + 3xsin. A max of debuffs/amps makes bosses go down really fast, especially if you got some at lvl11.
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ... Except that most bosses in Nirvana are immune to HF. On that basis, you could argue for Venos for Amp or Sage sins for Sage Subsea.

    Based on Arshies list above, 6 bosses can be amped/HF'd and 7 cannot. Of the 6 that can be amped, under HF they'll go down in a fraction of the time that it would take under either Veno's amp or Barb's devour. Of the 7 that cannot be amped, Bm has Glacial spike debuff which cut's bosses phys and mag defense by 50% for 10 seconds. Combined with tangling mire, non-ampable bosses will go down in roughly the same time as if they were under Barb's devour/Veno's ironwood (ie, with 5 Sins...one spark cycle). Plus if GS is demon, Bm gets 50% chance for 100% crits for half of debuff time.

    I suppose it could be argued that having Barb, Bm and Veno plus 3 sins is the best of all worlds. But in practice and if you had to choose... how many aps Sin squads out there do you know who would give up HF for Veno's amp or Barb's devour ?

    Particularly when the HF debuff comes with an extra 5 aps DD to boot ?

    BM wins hands down.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I suppose it could be argued that having Barb, Bm and Veno plus 3 sins is the best of all worlds. But in practice and if you had to choose... how many aps Sin squads out there do you know who would give up HF for Veno's amp or Barb's devour ?

    Particularly when the HF debuff comes with an extra 5 aps DD to boot ?

    BM wins hands down.

    You also have to keep in mind that usually a sin is tanking and not all that many can (or are just scared to even try) tank everything on their own buffs only. If you have a cleric in squad, you already have a spammable phys def reduction of 30% (or even 40% if lvl11) and the hp buff becomes less usefull for the one tanking since he's healed. BM has the advantage of having a def buff, hf or a def debuff (even if not spammable at all), can use a purge weap, and is one of the better DD.

    However, if I have to choose between veno with sage amp and bm, I'd actually go for the veno. Maybe I'm weird one on that (don't really need the def buff anyway). To many bms don't know the seal timings and waste their hf, with amp you don't have that problem. And veno make that annoying 2nd boss really easy even with a slower squad. Nothing beats amp + hf though b:laugh
  • Gnip - Raging Tide
    Gnip - Raging Tide Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Well for what it's worth...
    My experiences running with full 5 aps squads is the typical 5-6 minute runs, so devour or not doesn't seem relevant.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    4 APS sins + sage veno + demon bm with sage amp/demon hf, respectively.

    From experience, on non-ampable/hfable bosses, Veno would just spam myriads in hope of armor break, and if there is none then the BM glacial spikes.

    Also have a barb alt for barb buffs every 4-5 runs.


    I run 4 man (2 have alts with keys to waste) runs with 2 R9 demon sins (me being one of them), a demon hf bm, and demon amp veno, and our runs are typically 5-7 minutes long for each.

    4 sins + demon bm + sage veno would just be overkill. On hfable bosses, at least one of the sins doesn't even need to spark. But then again r9 +12 demon dd is pretty much up there in terms of dps >.>
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  • HellWariorB - Raging Tide
    HellWariorB - Raging Tide Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »
    4 APS sins + sage veno + demon bm with sage amp/demon hf, respectively.

    From experience, on non-ampable/hfable bosses, Veno would just spam myriads in hope of armor break, and if there is none then the BM glacial spikes.

    Also have a barb alt for barb buffs every 4-5 runs.


    I run 4 man (2 have alts with keys to waste) runs with 2 R9 demon sins (me being one of them), a demon hf bm, and demon amp veno, and our runs are typically 5-7 minutes long for each.

    4 sins + demon bm + sage veno would just be overkill. On hfable bosses, at least one of the sins doesn't even need to spark. But then again r9 +12 demon dd is pretty much up there in terms of dps >.>

    if u have in squad a R9 sin a BM the rest of the squad can be made of Wizz lol and the run will be done in 15 min lol

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