So... what's wrong with venos?

Gol_D_Chad - Sanctuary · May 2011

">_> If Veno and Barb become completely unplayed, I won't be shocked. You people and your boxes, with neat little compartments for what everything should do and be..."

zbzkda wrote: »

Veno will not, barb already is.

don't be quite sure about that. Mystics can do most things veno can and can do a few special things that venos can't. Thus, venos are at risk too.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver · May 2011

@zbzkda wall of text...explaning the basics that every veno should know?

its easy to kill a sin as mag class out of distance. so unless he pops up next to you, stuns you etc. its nothing special there. bishop and stuns? nothing new there.

so if Venos are not a DD class, what are Venos specificly then? only support? what about hercs who can tank? what about Nova and other skills that you can use PARALLEL to the debuffs? So since we have 2 debuffs we are considered now only as SUPPORT class? seriously? BMs HF+EP on genie also support class? Archers debuff on metal and HP reduction + TM, also SUPPORT class? seekers debuffs? mystics debuffs? clerics debuffs? Wiz debuffs? all support classes? whats left? Psy? -facedesk-

ALL Classes have 2-3 debuffs, yet only Venos are considered as SUPPORT class, strange theory you have there.

All classes should usually use their debuff, as Venos should usually do. So what makes us a SUPPORT class and them a DD?

And myriad you can use only if you have a target. you cant target a STEALTH sin! so you can use it only in TW on an another enemy, otherwise its useless even to mention it. like i would use myriad on a simple mob, just to check if there are any sins. or myriad in cube? -_-

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · May 2011

as more and more classes get introduced/updated older ones are going to suffer a loss in their niche, or find competition within it. in... another mmo i play; paladins were the goto tank for a majority of the game's life span. now with the advent of evasion being more useful, and more gear becoming readily available to mitigate damage, monks, ninjas, etc anything with remotely decent HP/evasion and a healer can do everything paladin can. paladin cant deal remotely enough damage to keep aggro off these guys, now they suck. classes evolved and devolve, and there is no 'supposed to be' amongst jobs, just things that 'can be' good at.

zbzkda · May 2011

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...

so if Venos are not a DD class, what are Venos specificly then? only support? what about hercs who can tank? what about Nova and other skills that you can use PARALLEL to the debuffs? So since we have 2 debuffs we are considered now only as SUPPORT class? seriously? BMs HF+EP on genie also support class? Archers debuff on metal and HP reduction, also SUPPORT class?

Hi:

Can you describe a veno as a DD with any seriousness since the introduction of APS? I have been playing for about 5-6 months tops, so granted I know nothing of the situation before OP gear and APS and sins etc. ...But as more things get introduced, veno is seen to come severely short of DD power relative to other classes. Again, I have been playing since about late December: so at the time when I came on to play the game seemed to necessitate a certain playing style for me to be useful. And I fulfil that role, and I am indeed very useful.

Also, with the advent of APS and OP gear, there really is no need for a herc tank, and it's only in BHs that I ever needed to tank anything with my (at the time) Glacial Walker...and that was when the team pretty much fell apart and only three or so were left and we still wanted to complete our BHs. I got my herc in the recent Perfect Pack sale.

Does the fact that my herc can tank make me a tank? No, it makes me a candidate for tanking in a dire situation. Same with a BM, though a BM can be fairly called a tank. Herc takes far too long to gain aggro, and with sins around and their lack of understanding of the phrase "Please DD slowly. If in doubt, do bursts of DD at say, 5-6 second intervals, then rest", and the fact that the slow down in DD means a much slower kill, I've never been asked to tank anything really beyond my BH51. From the time I hit Bh59, nobody ever even suggested that, even when the squad was breaking up.

So I submit that, and leave the question of what a veno's role truly is up to you.

And myriad you can use only if you have a target. you cant target a STEALTH sin! so you can use it only in TW on an another enemy, otherwise its useless even to mention it. like i would use myriad on a simple mob, just to check if there are any sins. or myriad in cube? -_-

@the point in bold: Yes...that's the point: in team PvP, when you see a sin go into stealth, you go close to where he disappeared and try to pop him out using someone else as a target

@the point that is underlined: The mentality I hold when talking about situational response is that of a world PKer and a griefer, who basically PKs people who are questing, griefs lowbies, kills assassins whenever he sees them etc. for lulz...do EVERYTHING for the kill count increment kids (kill_count++)! The more PKs you have, the bigger your e-p33n; pro-tip. That's how I intend to enjoy my game when I can eventually do well in PK.

So when I talk about a situation where myriad is required, I'm talking about a situation where you were trying to grief somebody and then they stealthed. Or you were flying by with some friends ganking people and you saw a sin stealth. These are situations where you would need to use Myriad. You certainly wouldn't randomly dart across to mobs randomly while grinding and use Myriad "just in case"...that's why you have Expel on your genie.

Interesting points all the same, though.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver · May 2011

zbzkda wrote: »

text

What does your 5-6moths has to do with the definition of Veno as Support class? There are not ONLY aps squads. So according to your theory anyone else who doesnt have fists and stealth, is a support class (since every class has more than one debuff)?

Herc as tanker was just an example. It helps the squad alot tho, especially if the APS tanker aka BM gets killed (which happens alot in TT3-x btw) and i need to hold agro till Cleric rez him. Sure Herc dies tho, but he can hold at least Agro till the usual Tanker gets up. This happend to me ALOT of times, not only in TT.

A squad with APS doesnt need a Veno anyway cause a OP squad is still OP, regardless if it has a Veno or not. They have their own debuffs...read other posts thats what most APS think of Venos ("Why get a Veno if we can do without and get more drops").

Herc can DD while Veno debuffs as well. Pets dont get their damage nerfed even at [?] bosses. i amp, ironwood and then i DD as usually. If i ONLY dd i take easily agro of a barb or low aps even, for that much i do make damage as any other class does. so i dont consdier myself only as support class. i do debuff with all my skills, but i do DD as well as any other class.

X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear · May 2011

A veno with DD seriousness is the same with any other class, requires gear. Vivi on HT for example, scary dd. Sometimes it can be hard to notice the power of magic dders in a squad with high dps bm/sins.

Don't forget even in this "Age of Dipshts", or "Age of APS", whatever you want to call it, every class still has a role to play in a squad, even if this role is smudged slightly. Every class is useful in it's own way. Sure 6 x 5aps toons will be the fastest, but who cares? Pick the squad you will have the most fun in.

zbzkda · May 2011

Hi:

Okay, I'll try to explain again, but this time, I'll not neglect to solidly dissect your post just for cordiality's sake.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What does your 5-6moths has to do with the definition of Veno as Support class? There are not ONLY aps squads.

I'm not sure how this links to any part of my post, so I'll refrain from commenting on it further.

So according to your theory anyone else who doesnt have fists and stealth, is a support class (since every class has more than one debuff)?

No, reading and comprehension skills do have a large part in determining interpretation of a message, so I'll make very unambiguous statements from here on: Every class has its own support moves. Based on the type of squad, the instance, and the availability of certain classes for the fulfilment of "traditional" roles, you may or may not have to fulfil an "irregular" role.

Now I'll bring in aps again, and this time it should be clearer what I was trying to say ^_^:

With the advent of aps, and the high amount of DD coming from assassins in squads, can you really in comparison describe a venomancer as a "DD class", given the number of excellent supporting debuffs it has? Amp, demon venomous, ironwood, myriad, Befuddling mist...and much much more! Given the duration and cooldown on the effects of all of these skills, and their combined effect when used with good timing, and kept up as consistently as you can, if you're in a squad with say, two assasins and an archer, your DD can never really match up to their combined DD, so my argument is, "Why not just enhance their DD instead?"

...

A squad with APS doesnt need a Veno anyway cause a OP squad is still OP, regardless if it has a Veno or not. They have their own debuffs...read other posts thats what most APS think of Venos.

Yes ^_^. That is the point: you cannot out-DD them. BUT this thread is apparently about a growing concern: Venomancers are increasingly the subject of exclusion from squads for useful instances. The idea of playing support in that case is to offer something more than plain old DD: offer DD support to the DDs. I believe the whole point of this thread is to debate ways that a Venomancer can be useful in the face of growing lack of need?

So again, if you cannot out-DD new classes, you should again, play support and synergize with noticeable benefits. If a cleric is constantly receiving chi from you, would s/he not notice? If a BM is getting sparks from you to do DG more often so he can keep up with the Assassin's triple spark...will he not notice? If you make it a point to re-bramble the barb before each pull, and to ensure you re-bramble the melee DDs when they get rezzed after dying...will they not notice? If your amp is always there JUST in perfect timing with the BM's DG and the assassin's triple spark...will the BM and assassin who are trying to maximize spike damage not notice? If you make it a point to ask the barb to put on his wood damage buff before the boss, and you keep up the 20% wood debuff from Demon Venomous...would the barb not notice?

And if you do all these things, amping bishops, keeping the cleric chi'd during pulls, and the BM chi'd during bosses, and keep your squad feeling your presence...would you not be considered useful?

If the problem is that venomancers are being seen as useless...would making yourself extra useful, not make you an invaluable part of a squad for any instance?

This post is hopefully the conclusion of all the misunderstandings of my previous posts. Of course, in the face of all the new classes you can keep trying to hold on to your misconception of you being as good a DD as they are: maybe you are. Very well ^_^. However, I submit, and I maintain that maybe, just maybe, a change of playing style is all venomancers need in order to end this problem of squads not wanting them.

I believe I've been pretty clear about my reasoning, and why I suggest trying a support playstyle. If you choose not to do so or disagree with that recommendation, please refrain from trying to say that it in itself is stupid: a venomancer can play a support role quite nicely. Whether or not you choose to do so is up to you. Thanks ^_^

Devinettie - Heavens Tear · May 2011

A lot of people keep mentioning aps and blah blah..

I've played my veno since I started on HT.. I find a lot of people think Venos are not DD.. They are.. you all forget to look at D.O.T Damage Over Time.. Veno's have a few spells with D.O.T You cast the D.O.T spells, Amp, Iron, Myraid, then normal, and Repeat... Sure we don't hit as hard or as fast.. but our dmg adds up.

I find a lot of squads don't even know what my spells do...

I ask who needs chi.. and no one replies.. I had a cleric say "You can do that?" ..

I have barbs yelling at me for putting Bramble on them... "Cuase is steals their mana." Hello thats the psy. spell not the venos!

Get told to lure a mob.. and yelled at when ya don't use a genie...

I've had People look at my Pet "aka a lvl 95 tabby at the moment" and tell me its worthless.. but I tell them it has lvl 5 flesh ream, bash and howl.. and working on getting Strong for it... they Laugh till I duel them and it takes a pretty chuck out of them.

*shrugs* Some people hate us... But if we enjoy playin our class we play it... if we didn't like our class we wouldn't play it. Plan and simple.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver · May 2011

a venomancer can play a support role quite nicely

That he can, but even then its not everything a Veno can do. "quite" even to your argument, doesnt mean that its the ONLY thing he can do.

Your role in team PvP is to stay back in the shadows and just debuff.

in the shadows? you degrading yourself and your class to nothing more than a debuff h**. You can stand up and DD as well as any other class. since you are so focused on APS. APS doesnt need your sparks. neither you nor any other DD in their squad.

i said APS is OP they dont need a Veno...it means as well for any other class, that you appearnently consider as DD.

With the advent of aps, and the high amount of DD coming from assassins in squads, can you really in comparison describe a venomancer as a "DD class", given the number of excellent supporting debuffs it has?

Veno has enough time to debuff and to DD. Just cause you cant do it appearnelty, dont reduce all other Venos to same. Cause i can manage both. There are indeed better DDs than Venos, yet they do all their job. They debuff and DD as i do. Just cause i dont do same damage as them (and that depends on gear and build), doesnt mean i m less DD. A small employee is still an employee.

If a BM is getting sparks from you to do DG more often so he can keep up with the Assassin's triple spark...will he not notice?

He wont, cause its you who mentioned APS here and according to your situation every BM is APS. He doesnt need your sparks.

I believe I've been pretty clear about my reasoning, and why I suggest trying a support playstyle

Restrain yourself "suggest" here someone anything, since you are standing only in the "Shadows". I never said i dont debuff, i said clearly i amp+ironwood and DD while that. That means I can do both.

I dont know where you got your idea beeing only a debuffer and staying "in the shadows". unlike you probably, every other Veno can DD within 50 seconds till he/she can amplify again (20sec debuff + 30sec cooldown) and yeah...Ironwood is also a DD skill.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · May 2011

Just gonna pick one thing out, reply to it, and leave this thread, because it's obviously not going anywhere now.

As a veno in a squad, your sparks are not your own, get used to it.

In an instance like FCC, you WILL be expected to use your AOE's. Both of them. At the same time, you have a necessary, spammable skill, Ironwood, to put armor break on the boss/mobs. You are reducing your usefulness in squad if you are not using it.

I tell a squad at the beginning of an FCC that I can either send sparks or AOE. Their choice. Usually, they look at my gear, and ask me to AOE.

As for your book about playing veno... GLWT.

ZAPATON - Sanctuary · May 2011

Vitruvio - Raging Tide wrote: »

So... what's wrong with venos?

Some of them (deers and bunnies) don't have tails.

/thread

Now seriously...

Vitruvio - Raging Tide wrote: »

Why is it so hard to find a FC squad as veno?

APS

/thread

Foxieee_trek - Harshlands · May 2011

Veno's are great if they know their class once a veno asked me what skill i just did and it was amp... in bh 59 so that was a pretty noob question.. and all the high lvl veno's i knew are hopeless for the new veno's to come they have to learn how to play with my class i learned it from my faction b:cute

anyway veno's are great at fc but ppl don't know that anymore cause they fcc alot...b:angry

OiOOio - Raging Tide · May 2011

Those that feel left out or venos are going extinct why dont u just squad with other venos or even mystics.

I am lvling my alt mystic so i can run TTs and other instances with my herc veno.... im sure it will be awesome!!

It may be slow but hey i am sure i can keep my herc alive much longer with mystics + my heal and their alt pets.

I am not sure about what kind of useful skills mystics has that require a spark but if they have anything that will help their mana and buffs then using lending hand on my veno is just that much more useful b:pleased

Mraochan - Lost City · May 2011

ZAPATON - Sanctuary wrote: »

Some of them (deers and bunnies) don't have tails.

LOL

That would be cute, a little deer tail or puffy white bunny tail... b:dirty

evilspawn123 · May 2011

I am lvling my alt mystic so i can run TTs and other instances with my herc veno.... im sure it will be awesome!!

I am doing the same but how will you open TT, you need 4 people right?

OiOOio - Raging Tide · May 2011

evilspawn123 wrote: »

I am doing the same but how will you open TT, you need 4 people right?

Awww I totally forgot lol, either way i got friends that could help me open it and then leave b:pleased... i dont think u will be kicked out if it happens, right?

Anyone wants to clarify... otherwise singe mode will have to do... although i have to see if it is worth it, which many said its not.

Mraochan - Lost City · May 2011

OiOOio - Raging Tide wrote: »

Awww I totally forgot lol, either way i got friends that could help me open it and then leave b:pleased... i dont think u will be kicked out if it happens, right?

Anyone wants to clarify... otherwise singe mode will have to do... although i have to see if it is worth it, which many said its not.

Solo mode isn't worth it.

And no, you won't be kicked out.b:victory

ZAPATON - Sanctuary · May 2011

OiOOio - Raging Tide wrote: »

Awww I totally forgot lol, either way i got friends that could help me open it and then leave b:pleased... i dont think u will be kicked out if it happens, right?

Anyone wants to clarify... otherwise singe mode will have to do... although i have to see if it is worth it, which many said its not.

You only need 4+ people to open it, after that, you can go on even if everyone else leaves squad, leaving you alone. b:pleased

Edit:

Mraochan - Lost City wrote: »

Solo mode isn't worth it.

And no, you won't be kicked out.b:victory

^ This + 1

Silest - Sanctuary · May 2011

Chickpea - Lost City wrote: »

How?

Simply keep spamming the follow command. I guess spamming pet-attack command works too, but I feel they will not response as fast to that. You see, I know veno's do not do this, because the chicken will start following herc. The "panic" caused on him will only last but a few seconds, so just spam follow to get him to come back immediately when the panic is over. The chicken should not move at all, thus no annoyed players having to chase the chicken down.

I did FCC from lvl80 to 97, and with my first fight with the pheonix, I used this method. It's never had to run after my herc.

Also the pet HAS to be on manual for this to work.

Renza - Raging Tide · May 2011

I see a lot of veno's simply play there class in a really useless way in squads, looking at FC for e.g, I see a lot that don't bother to use amp damage on bosses to let us kill it quicker and for e.g on the first boss with the exploding traps I see some veno's that just simply don't bother to summon there pets as they're either to lazy to tell the pet to run back to "her" or stow and re-summon, same goes with runewolf when it does its crazy aoe and sometimes with the bubble boss, instead of stowing it or healing it when its poisoned, they just simply don't bother to summon it, therefore gimping there damage.

Now obviously there isn't that many HA veno's about but when a squad I was in today invited one that was HA, near level 90 with a level 60 magic weapon on and also switched to a level 60 axe during one of the bosses while rarely amping the bosses and not using the pet all the time, you know you've ran into a fairly useless veno for the squad.

I've definitely met some really helpful veno's in the squads as well no doubt, just shamefully the useless veno's seem to out-weigh the good ones from my experience.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2011

Simply put, aps is idiot proof as are barbs.

i cant remember the last time a random veno actually debuffed, and most will spam heal their pet screaming at my 5 aps *** to let them tank in fcc

zbzkda · May 2011

Hi ^_^

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...<Needlessly harshly toned post over something I thought I was very clear about>...

***Snip.***

Restrain yourself "suggest" here someone anything, since you are standing only in the "Shadows". I never said i dont debuff, i said clearly i amp+ironwood and DD while that. That means I can do both.

I dont know where you got your idea beeing only a debuffer and staying "in the shadows". unlike you probably, every other Veno can DD within 50 seconds till he/she can amplify again (20sec debuff + 30sec cooldown) and yeah...Ironwood is also a DD skill.

I didn't say you don't debuff either: can you kindly point out where in my series of posts I said that? I'd be very grateful

. Also, sorry but Amplify Damage can be used every 30 seconds, not every 50 ^_^. Additionally, I have the right to "suggest" anything I see fit to contribute to any discussion I see on these forums, since I am also a player of the game.

Also, I "got my idea" about playing a pure support style in a squad from nothing more than what I saw as common sense: It appeared to me that I could not possibly compete with the DD from an assassin, or archer, so I thought about ways I could contribute other than DDing, and it works for me. And seeing that it has worked for me I came to try to give my input, but apparently I went wrong somewhere since it doesn't align with the way you like to play your own Venomancer. Fair enough ^_^, as long as I got to at least say something I thought was useful. But that's not the issue either:

zbzkda wrote: »

Hi:

<MOAR TEXT>.

This post is hopefully the conclusion of all the misunderstandings of my previous posts. Of course, in the face of all the new classes you can keep trying to hold on to your misconception of you being as good a DD as they are: maybe you are. Very well ^_^. However, I submit, and I maintain that maybe, just maybe, a change of playing style is all venomancers need in order to end this problem of squads not wanting them.

I believe I've been pretty clear about my reasoning, and why I suggest trying a support playstyle. If you choose not to do so or disagree with that recommendation, please refrain from trying to say that it in itself is stupid: a venomancer can play a support role quite nicely. Whether or not you choose to do so is up to you. Thanks ^_^

I'm now officially dropping this folly. I saw the thread and tabled a possible solution to what seemed to be a mounting problem. You just keep trying to say I'm stupid, or seem to be thinking that I'm somehow trying to make you look small, so you'll probably keep replying with that biting tone no matter how reasonable my suggestion is. That said, I came in, and I went right to the core, and tried to discuss the issue and immediately tried to present a solution. I don't know why you decided to latch onto me and pour sarcasm and scorn, but...after all of your replies to both myself and others in the thread: can you point out which of your posts tries to give a solution? Say give some pointers from your own experiences that would probably shed some light on these other Venomancers' problem?

Please, please don't reply again with more scathing remarks, I'm going to simply back out of this discussion now, and go elsewhere. Thanks

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · May 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Simply put, aps is idiot proof as are barbs.

i cant remember the last time a random veno actually debuffed, and most will spam heal their pet screaming at my 5 aps *** to let them tank in fcc

Since there's something... Worth responding to...

I run FCC with a debuffer pet. Basically a Kowlin. Has Pierce, Howl, Bash, and... Umm... Been so long, I can't remember the last one. Might be Pounce, can't remember.

Anyway, when I'm doing FCC, I will run into the mobs in Fox Form, and AOE curse all the mobs. Then I will use Myriad. Meanwhile, my Kowlin is attacking the shade, and set to use Pierce so there's an armor break on the shade to help make it die faster. Once I get to the shade, I'll amp it. If it self buffs with a PDef buff or APS buff, I'll purge it, otherwise, I just shift to human form and will start to AOE if any mobs are left.

If there is a Psy, Wiz, Mystic, etc., in the squad, and they are DDing on the Shade, I will poke Howl and nuke the Shade's MDef for the magic DD. Otherwise, I'll let kowlin munch the mob as normal.

For bosses, Kowlin is nice because of it's speed. Slasher boss, as long as it doesn't oneshot the little... Dog... thing... Is the most useful pet there as well. Kowlin will actually get back to me before the slash goes off most of the time, where as my Cub (also has pierce, but no Howl) won't make it back in time.

Shocktrooper is a pain, I usually just recall pet and leave it in the petbag. Can't keep it alive for the entire boss anyway, most venos can't even keep a herc alive.

So... Yeah, I do a LOT of shifting from FF to human form, I can use as much as 50 mana food in one FCC just from switching from fox form to human form. Myriad nukes Mana too... Thank goodness they didn't give Venos a constant channel AOE, I'd use like 200 mana food in an FCC run. >_>

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver · May 2011

@zbzkda

again wall of text. seriously, you can make your point without describing how long you played the game, what you do at bishops and how you killed a sin yesterday.

Difference between your and my playstyle? i dont compare my damage to other DDs. Cause every damage matters, regradless how small it is. You are right about the 30 seconds (i blame the late hour), yet withitn 30 seconds i can be a DD as well. i dont stand around and wave with my tail and let the squad do the job while just waiting amp to cool down.

There are mass of other forum threads that show whats your job is and how you have to handle it. i find them more usefull than saying "stay behind" "in the shadow" "you are not a DD". In TW we do have a different role tho, but QQ bird isnt considered as our DD?

As for not replying. If you dont want to reply to my answers, its up to you. But please dont tell others what they have to do. Thanks ^_^

tfi3f · August 2011

Bump...PvE servers are the only place where you'll hear about people saying veno is a DD...LOLOL and the only servers that fail to kill harpy in PWIC LOLOLOL

Wiz, archer, BM, mystic, psy = killers in TW
Sin, archer, psy = PvE DDs.

Veno = support in TW
Veno = support in instance

...Maybe PvE might do it right next PWIC but I doubt it b:laugh

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · August 2011

tfi3f wrote: »

Bump...PvE servers are the only place where you'll hear about people saying veno is a DD...LOLOL and the only servers that fail to kill harpy in PWIC LOLOLOL

Wiz, archer, BM, mystic, psy = killers in TW
Sin, archer, psy = PvE DDs.

Veno = support in TW
Veno = support in instance

...Maybe PvE might do it right next PWIC but I doubt it b:laugh

And the crickets roar.

Cool necro bro.

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver · August 2011

Yes, good job necroing

Vitruvio - Raging Tide · August 2011

Why do you necro my thread?

Olessia - Lost City · August 2011

I know its a necro but...

The answer to this question is simple!

They're jealous of our tails and ears. I mean.. cmon! A fash set with ears and a tail for both males and females now? Not to mention a crazy abundance of all class pets, they so jealous of our little kitties! Excluding our kind is their way of saying OMG I SO JELLY.

deyz r so jelly.....

chaoticshelly · August 2011

Closed for necro.

So... what's wrong with venos?

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