Bramble Damage Calculation

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Zsw - Dreamweaver
Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
edited July 2011 in General Discussion
Hello,

I was looking to find a calculation for the reflected damage of Bramble Guard but to no avail. My testing result showed unexpected patterns that I could not determine, but that could be due to the condition I was testing it in. I'm trying to determine this calculation in order to determine to what extent should I avoid bramble, and how much pdef or hp I need to have over or under my target in order to kill him without suiciding on bramble. As at the current moment, bramble is really a pain in tw and pk enabled instances being that I sometimes 1 shot myself off bramble while my target barely takes damage, and other times I 1 shot my target and I barely take damage myself.

So I'm wondering if anyone has tried and is able to help me or provide me with such a calculation to help determining the extent of the usefulness of bramble.

Thanks in advance.
Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
Post edited by Zsw - Dreamweaver on

Comments

  • KarenaiHana - Sanctuary
    KarenaiHana - Sanctuary Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Forward this request to Archer forum

    lol
  • AriesBreath - Raging Tide
    AriesBreath - Raging Tide Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    KarenaiHana - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Forward this request to Archer forum

    lol

    How does bramble relate to archers exactly?
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Don't look at me.. venos never bramble me.. even though I'm normally tanking <<
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  • KarenaiHana - Sanctuary
    KarenaiHana - Sanctuary Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »
    How does bramble relate to archers exactly?

    Its math my dear b:kiss
  • AriesBreath - Raging Tide
    AriesBreath - Raging Tide Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    KarenaiHana - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Its math my dear b:kiss

    Ahh archers and math. b:chuckle
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  • Allynna_ - Dreamweaver
    Allynna_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Reflected Bramble is : Your Damage * 0.(% of bramble) * Enemy's Pdef as a decimal (IE: 70% PDef, means * .3 - opposite way around).

    Essentially Bramble reflects your damage back before defenses/defense levels. So, if your Pdef is a fair bit lower than theirs (or they Invoke, AD w/e) your pretty much killing yourself on them.
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Ahh archers and math. b:chuckle

    b:angry

    I suppose just looking at the skill would tell you lots about how it would work. Then you just factor in your physical resistance and bingo!

    ---
    EDIT: Ohey! I completely should have read all the way down and noticed Allynna_ said it far better than I did :3
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
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    "Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    b:angry

    I suppose just looking at the skill would tell you lots about how it would work. Then you just factor in your physical resistance and bingo!

    ---
    EDIT: Ohey! I completely should have read all the way down and noticed Allynna_ said it far better than I did :3

    You let yourself get outmath'd by an archer on purpose? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY DECUS?! b:angry
  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    b:angry

    I suppose just looking at the skill would tell you lots about how it would work. Then you just factor in your physical resistance and bingo!

    ---
    EDIT: Ohey! I completely should have read all the way down and noticed Allynna_ said it far better than I did :3

    Decus being outmaths'd? I would've never guessed it! b:shocked
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  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    truekossy wrote: »
    You let yourself get outmath'd by an archer on purpose? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY DECUS?! b:angry
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Decus being outmaths'd? I would've never guessed it! b:shocked



    I don't think I ever went toe-to-toe with anyone's math on here. I'd probably embarrass myself if I did.

    Plus I am more of a give-em-tools-to-figure-it-out-themselves kinda guy. That or maybe I am just too lazy. Either way I was late in responding and not very helpful. Shame on me! =/


    Unrelated: I miss troll-face kossy b:cry
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray
  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Well, actually that was my original theory, but based on the test I did, the following happened:

    The person attacking has the following stats:
    331 - 331 Physical attack.
    59% Physical Defense.

    The brambled person being attacked has 61% Physical Defense.

    The attacker dealt 30 damage, and 37 damage was reflected.
    So neither 0.75 * 30 * (1-0.59) nor 0.75 * 331 * (1-0.59) gives me 37. (Can't recall if it was demon bramble or not, so I tried both)
    Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
    TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


    All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Was that buffed (including fox form) or unbuffed?

    Last time I bothered to test, bramble's reflect was based on the defenders unbuffed Physical defense. Kinda like how with a herc tanking a boss, the herc can take 1k damage but wind up reflecting far more. The same would happen for a veno going into fox form while bramble is active.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    I would think that the defense and damage reduction of the target doesnt matter.

    Just pretend like you are attacking yourself with whatever your normal damage is times the reflect factor.
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  • __Astarte__ - Dreamweaver
    __Astarte__ - Dreamweaver Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Was there a significant level difference between the two guinea pigs? Because I'm not sure if it works the same for PvP, but I do know when there's a significant difference between a player and a mob (ex: vs a [?] boss) that they tend to take a lot less reflected damage. So while Attack and Defense levels may be ignored, maybe it still takes damage augmentations due to level difference into account? =O
    Censorship is the bane of creativity. Censorship is the bane of personality. Most of all...censorship is the bane of identity.
  • Allynna_ - Dreamweaver
    Allynna_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Made a slight error in my post last night. It's your Pdef/defenses that effect how much bramble you take back.

    Nothing is ignored in the Bramble Calc, when it says 60% of damage reflected, if you would deal 10k damage before defenses/defense level /pvp reduction w\e you get 6k back in your face. Then YOUR attack/defense levels, pdef, reduced pdef taken stat, pvp damage reduction is taken into effect.
    IE: 10,000 damage * 0.6 = 6000 * .25 (pvp reduciton) = 1250 * .4 (your 60% pdef) = 500.
    If the target has, say 80% Pdef, 10000 *.25 - 2500 * .2 = 500. just an example for pvp

    More Pdef on a Brambled target doesn't make it more powerful, just makes it seem more effective, as if the gap between defenses is enough it does look like your killing yourself on them.

    Also, reflected damage on TT bosses does seem less as they get the 1/4th damage reduction to any damage, including bramble thrown back at them.
  • HexOmega - Dreamweaver
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,342 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    KarenaiHana - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Forward this request to Archer forum

    lol

    told u that, zsw!

    and what did you get? archer answer!
    i like potato
  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Hello,

    Thanks for the response. However, when you refer to the damage I deal, do you mean the raw damage (331) or the damage that appears on my target (30)?

    Here are some additional info:

    The person with bramble is a 103 sin.
    The person attacking is a 100 BM.
    The BM was attacking bare handed so he has a constant physical attack of 331-331.
    The sin has 48 attack level, and 0 defense level.
    The bm has 0 attack level and 0 defense level.

    So if I use your calculation:
    331 * 0.6 = 198.6 * 0.25 = 49.65 * 0.41 (59% pdef) = 20.3565. Yet what was actually reflected was a damage of 37.
    Using 0.75 instead of 0.6 for the bramble reflect (demon) gives 25.445625

    And using 30 instead of 331 for the damage gives 1.845

    Addtionally, as crazy as it seems, based on my testing pdef on a brambled target does affect its power. When I lowered the pdef of the sin, the reflected damage on the BM also increased.

    Any insight to this would be helpful.

    Thanks in advance.
    Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
    TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


    All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
  • Purra_Pearl - Sanctuary
    Purra_Pearl - Sanctuary Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Don't look at me.. venos never bramble me.. even though I'm normally tanking <<

    I would bramble you any day, baby. <3 b:cute

    edit: I have a Wolfy whispering in my ear that I'm a creepy fangirl! D:
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Purra_Pearl - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I would bramble you any day, baby. <3 b:cute

    edit: I have a Wolfy whispering in my ear that I'm a creepy fangirl! D:

    Just put another kill contract out for him on WC. b:laugh
  • ItsAWolf - Archosaur
    ItsAWolf - Archosaur Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Hello,

    Thanks for the response. However, when you refer to the damage I deal, do you mean the raw damage (331) or the damage that appears on my target (30)?

    Here are some additional info:

    The person with bramble is a 103 sin.
    The person attacking is a 100 BM.
    The BM was attacking bare handed so he has a constant physical attack of 331-331.
    The sin has 48 attack level, and 0 defense level.
    The bm has 0 attack level and 0 defense level.

    So if I use your calculation:
    331 * 0.6 = 198.6 * 0.25 = 49.65 * 0.41 (59% pdef) = 20.3565. Yet what was actually reflected was a damage of 37.
    Using 0.75 instead of 0.6 for the bramble reflect (demon) gives 25.445625

    And using 30 instead of 331 for the damage gives 1.845

    Addtionally, as crazy as it seems, based on my testing pdef on a brambled target does affect its power. When I lowered the pdef of the sin, the reflected damage on the BM also increased.

    Any insight to this would be helpful.

    Thanks in advance.

    331 * 0.25 = 82.75 (PK Penalty)
    82.75 * 0.75 = 62.0625 (Reflect)
    62.0625 * (1-0.59) = 25.445625 (pdef)
    25.445625 * 1.48 = 37.659525 (attack lvls)

    pdef is too much alike to judge which value it uses, any discrepencies can also be caused by the level difference (for example, 0.61 def && 1.51 atk lvl (add 3 for lvl difference) would come to 36.54)
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    ItsAWolf - Archosaur wrote: »
    331 * 0.25 = 82.75 (PK Penalty)
    82.75 * 0.75 = 62.0625 (Reflect)
    62.0625 * (1-0.59) = 25.445625 (pdef)
    25.445625 * 1.48 = 37.659525 (attack lvls)

    pdef is too much alike to judge which value it uses, any discrepencies can also be caused by the level difference (for example, 0.61 def && 1.51 atk lvl (add 3 for lvl difference) would come to 36.54)

    Ohh thats interesting it uses the attack level of the target while reflecting the damage of the attacker. I guess they apply the attack / defense levels at the end after the reflect damage is calculated.
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  • ItsAWolf - Archosaur
    ItsAWolf - Archosaur Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ohh thats interesting it uses the attack level of the target while reflecting the damage of the attacker. I guess they apply the attack / defense levels at the end after the reflect damage is calculated.

    It would appear that way yeah, basically your character performs an 'attack' when he is reflecting. Prolly explains why my barb spins around madly at times in a group of mobs when he's brambled. (and no, not because he's using sunder :P)
  • Foxchu - Archosaur
    Foxchu - Archosaur Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    ItsAWolf - Archosaur wrote: »
    It would appear that way yeah, basically your character performs an 'attack' when he is reflecting. Prolly explains why my barb spins around madly at times in a group of mobs when he's brambled. (and no, not because he's using sunder :P)

    kk you guys got the math :o and wolf here just explained the rest... bramble is an actual attack made by the person, hence the effectiveness of the herc to keep healing aggro off the veno when tanking multiple mobs. bramble is a thing to be feared and respected b:pleased so be kind to your venos cause they give awesome buffs :D
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  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Foxchu - Archosaur wrote: »
    kk you guys got the math :o and wolf here just explained the rest... bramble is an actual attack made by the person, hence the effectiveness of the herc to keep healing aggro off the veno when tanking multiple mobs. bramble is a thing to be feared and respected b:pleased so be kind to your venos cause they give awesome buffs :D

    Now if only they actually gave the buff more often even when a non-BM/Barb is tanking... b:cry
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Does an attacker attack level make the reflected damage higher though? Does target defense level make it less? :O

    Too bad the reflect damage doesn't count as a mellee attack. Then two brambled opponents could have the damage bouncing between them endlessly until one of them died b:chuckle
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  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    ItsAWolf - Archosaur wrote: »
    331 * 0.25 = 82.75 (PK Penalty)
    82.75 * 0.75 = 62.0625 (Reflect)
    62.0625 * (1-0.59) = 25.445625 (pdef)
    25.445625 * 1.48 = 37.659525 (attack lvls)

    pdef is too much alike to judge which value it uses, any discrepencies can also be caused by the level difference (for example, 0.61 def && 1.51 atk lvl (add 3 for lvl difference) would come to 36.54)

    Your calculation seem to make sense, ty for the clarification. Thanks for the responses everyone, I'll do a bit more testing to confirm if this works for all situations.
    Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
    TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


    All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
  • Aranarwa - Heavens Tear
    Aranarwa - Heavens Tear Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Too bad the reflect damage doesn't count as a mellee attack. Then two brambled opponents could have the damage bouncing between them endlessly until one of them died b:chuckle

    ^^ I lolled soooo hard.....
    Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder b:chuckle
  • krisnda
    krisnda Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited July 2011
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    truekossy wrote: »
    Now if only they actually made the buff for PvP... b:cry

    Fixed. b:sad
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