Unbalanced gears between HA and AA

MageMERC - Harshlands · July 2011

My level 92 friend (tks Dev) pointed this out to me the other day, which I'd never thought of until then, which indicates clearly how unbalanced the gear is between HA and AA.

Look at the following armour for TT 80

Lvl 80 TT heavy plate - Tiger Roar Plate

Pdef - 1392
MDef - (for each elements) - 595

Lvl 80 TT arcane robe - Intangible Robe

Pdef - 155
MDef - 1390

So, as this one example shows, the HA character gets a much better Mdef addition (595) , than the corresponding AA character gets for their Pdef addition (155).

Anyway, if Im missing something here, let me know, otherwise this sucks. Thats all I guess...

StormHydra - Sanctuary · July 2011

I've noticed it as well, but

HA users are supposed to be more naturally tanky because they are all melee.

Ignasia - Heavens Tear · July 2011

AA always has a lower pdef than any other armor. Thats why you shard with pdef stones instead of going full hp stones. Its not unbalanced, thats the way its supposed to be.

Jeremied - Sanctuary · July 2011

<_< Adding to the above post, at that level most AA users shouldn't be getting hit, at least not anywhere near the amount that HA users do. Since all the arcane users are raged, or have meatshields like venos, for example, AA doesn't require nearly as much Pdef as HA when it comes to PvE.

PvP on the other hand...=P

SmifnWesson - Lost City · July 2011

thats pretty simple to understand, there are more elements to consider aside from just the basic comparison of the armors, what you failed to enter into your calculations was the damage output of the two as well

even with the armors the way they are magic users have a way better chance of "one shotting" a heavy armor user than a melee class has at once shotting an arcane user of similar levels

how about you ask a wizard how he/she feels about the strength of their physical defense, or the fact that a psychics resistance to damage period while doing much more damage per your shot to yourself than youd do to them, or a clerics ability to turn any melee damage into something laughable

what arcanes lack in flat out numbers on their armors they make up for in skills, aside from psychics who are just rediculous, I think magic classes are the most balanced classes ingame

but thats just my opinion from my limited knowledge in fighting them and hearsay as I do not have currently any high lvl arcane class characters aside from a 80 cleric atm

Saintblu - Sanctuary · July 2011

I have to agree with this post, this is one of the few game where they made AA user super weak in def, before r9 and all that other godly gear came out use AA user used to get owned badly by barbs, and bms even archers. I Guess since the newer gear give use caster so much magic damg they trying to make up for it. I do agree that AA need more pdef, I shouldnt have to cashshop or farm all day to make up for my crappy def.

SmifnWesson - Lost City · July 2011

Saintblu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I shouldnt have to cashshop or farm all day to make up for my crappy def.

Im really surprised to hear such a high lvl wiz say this, again I may be putting my foot in my mouth here, but from what Ive heard from the higher ups Ive associated with endgame wizards have some seriously impressive pdef with stone shield and shards and stuff....

not to mention the fact they are a ranged "glass cannon" class, I mean with the exception of sins, which Ive died to my fair share of wizards, do wizards really have that much of a problem with the melee classes?

I dont really take into account the pet classes with arcane users cause most of the pvp venos Ive seen are HA, and mystics are just crazy when they know what they are doing as well....

*guess i know what class to make next*

Escorian - Dreamweaver · July 2011

-.-; sigh in every game mages have weak armor/defence b:bye think of what they call a wizard "Glass Cannon" wonder why almost every game refers them like this? maybe because they hit ****ing hard but cant take damage? mages were meant to not be physical Defense strong but i would like to point out that wizards with pdef ornaments and demon Stone Barrier can have more pdef then the heavies of the game. b:bye

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · July 2011

Ignasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

AA always has a lower pdef than any other armor. Thats why you shard with pdef stones instead of going full hp stones. Its not unbalanced, thats the way its supposed to be.

I think he's referring to the fact that even though HA mag defense is a joke compared to AA magic defense, it's still more magical defense than the AA people get physical defense. If it was balance it should be more like this in his eyes.

Lvl 80 TT heavy plate - Tiger Roar Plate

Pdef - 1392
MDef - (for each elements) - 595

Lvl 80 TT arcane robe - Intangible Robe

Pdef - 595
MDef - 1390

That being said magic attack has a much higher damage per hit than does physical attacks, even if DPS clearly favors melees. What this means is that if you tank a hit from a physical damage mob, you would clearly get more benefit out of that 595 than a melee person tanking a hit from a magical mob.

For example: Holeen

Physical Attack
2745 - 3294
Magic Attack
3843 - 4611

Now the following setup is just an example and in no way reflects in game mechanics. It's just being made to make a point.

Magical Attack against an Hard Armor user:

4611-595=4016 damage taken

Physical Attack against an Arcane user:

3294-155=3139 damage taken

Now Mr.HA here has far more HP than Mr. AA user, so lets pretend he has 10k hp. That 4k hit him pretty hard, but nothing that he can't live through while being healed due to his naturally high hp.

Where as Mr.AA here only has 4k Hp, ouch it's a good thing he is not tanking because if he got hit again he would be dead and healing can only go so far if you're a two shot.

Now let's see that value if were balanced the way you think it should be balanced.

Physical Attack against an Arcane user:

3294-595= 2699 damage taken

Now all of a sudden, maybe Mr. AA realizes that he doesn't really need to put shards in defense shards just pure health. So his HP is say 7k. Suddenly he could tank too even up close and personal. Kinda defeats the purpose of even having tanks if everyone can tank the damage. Now of course this is grossly oversimplified and your defenses don't work this way, it also did not take into consideration the tiny amount of str Mr.AA would have for wearing his armor. But it does illustrate the basic principle on why AA doesn't have as high of a physical defense than HA has of a magical defense.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2011

Ignasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

AA always has a lower pdef than any other armor. Thats why you shard with pdef stones instead of going full hp stones. Its not unbalanced, thats the way its supposed to be.

add that little info too most of mobs also got less pdef and also we got more pdef buff:

barb got self buff
veno got self buff
wizz got self buff
psy def lv buff
etc etc

cleric and bm got squad buff

till vs mdef only 1 buff exist and if u dont have cleric around u then sucks

another thing magical attacks got range, phisical attacks most of time melee and lower dph (game
breaked where high aps was introduced)

i think only archer can a bit qq coz low def alsso dodge buff is useless

Okeano - Harshlands · July 2011

Wow, are you serious? It can't possibly be because HA have to spend 80% of the fight chasing while not able to do any damage while AA are running, falling from flight, regain flight while shooting at the same time; or because AA have much higher damage per hit than HA. You casters got 700-800 mil weapon on sale for 1/10 of the price while HA still have to buy armor/ornaments at full price just to able to take some of the hits, and you are still complaining?

Saintblu - Sanctuary · July 2011

SmifnWesson - Lost City wrote: »

Im really surprised to hear such a high lvl wiz say this, again I may be putting my foot in my mouth here, but from what Ive heard from the higher ups Ive associated with endgame wizards have some seriously impressive pdef with stone shield and shards and stuff....

not to mention the fact they are a ranged "glass cannon" class, I mean with the exception of sins, which Ive died to my fair share of wizards, do wizards really have that much of a problem with the melee classes?

I dont really take into account the pet classes with arcane users cause most of the pvp venos Ive seen are HA, and mystics are just crazy when they know what they are doing as well....

*guess i know what class to make next*

I think you did not understand my post. What I was referring to was back in the days before all this deadly gear came out, we used to get crushed by bms barbs and archers. They unbalanced def really affect us casters. Now a day since all this new gear came out it made up for us having very low def, now a day we can 1shot or almost 1shot every one. That gear still comes from cashshoping, so in order to get that deadly damg means you have to farm all day or cashshop. Go fight a caster who has basic gear on and you put ti on to, you see the big diffrence between HA user and AA. You got to understand we only hit hard because of todays gear allows us to, back in the days gear we couldnt kill a barb without getting like 3 or 4 crits off, BladeMaster use to crush us from their high magical def buff and stuns, and archer well we held our own agaisnt them but if they snuck attack us we died almost instant. It got to the point where most clerics wizard and venos went LA to make up for the low def our armor gave us.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · July 2011

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Wow, are you serious? It can't possibly be because HA have to spend 80% of the fight chasing while not able to do any damage while AA are running, falling from flight, regain flight while shooting at the same time; or because AA have much higher damage per hit than HA. You casters got 700-800 mil weapon on sale for 1/10 of the price while HA still have to buy armor/ornaments at full price just to able to take some of the hits, and you are still complaining?

That's because there is more of a demand for melee end game than there is for casters. Less demand/High supply=lower prices. Casters also make much less money than melees for this exact reason so even though you pay higher numbers on paper, it's still a much smaller percentage of your monthly income than a casters even if that caster is pro and gets into squads. They still aren't going to get into squads as often and the run is going to take longer. Which means less time making money. Which means less money earned. Middle class people tend to pay lower costs for well everything, but rich people while paying more for that meal still have far more disposable income and it's still a much smaller percentage of their overall income. Of course, this is just the average player we are talking about. There are plenty who get aroudn this by having permasquads and such like that.

Escorian - Dreamweaver · July 2011

Saintblu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think you did not understand my post. What I was referring to was back in the days before all this deadly gear came out, we used to get crushed by bms barbs and archers. They unbalanced def really affect us casters. Now a day since all this new gear came out it made up for us having very low def, now a day we can 1shot or almost 1shot every one. That gear still comes from cashshoping, so in order to get that deadly damg means you have to farm all day or cashshop. Go fight a caster who has basic gear on and you put ti on to, you see the big diffrence between HA user and AA. You got to understand we only hit hard because of todays gear allows us to, back in the days gear we couldnt kill a barb without getting like 3 or 4 crits off, BladeMaster use to crush us from their high magical def buff and stuns, and archer well we held our own agaisnt them but if they snuck attack us we died almost instant. It got to the point where most clerics wizard and venos went LA to make up for the low def our armor gave us.

what are you smoking? wizards have always been able to 1 shot ha classes. b:bye

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · July 2011

The game makes it extremely easy to get high pdef

-Physical Defense buffs are much more effective than magic resistance buffs
-Physical ornaments refine higher than mag ornaments
-There is a reduce physical damage stat but no reduce magical
-garnet shards give more pdef than sapphire gives mres

Mres is much harder to get. HA and AA are balanced, it's LA that totally sucks.

Burnout - Harshlands · July 2011

LA and AA have identical total defense, just some numbers switched around. That's why it's pointless to go LA for casters since what they gain in p . def they lose in m. def equally.

HA gets very high p. def and decent m. def. It's only a little lower than LA's m. def. And it also gets the most hp for refine. It's the best armor in terms of all around total defense, but it also requires the most stat points.

If they really reduced HA's m. def to what it "should" be, they would get absolutely ***** by casters.

SmifnWesson - Lost City · July 2011

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

but i would like to point out that wizards with pdef ornaments and demon Stone Barrier can have more pdef then the heavies of the game. b:bye

yea thanks for mentioning that as well, this was also the information I was told I just wasnt sure I guess if that was 100% accurate but I guess it was even if situationally....

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

it's LA that totally sucks.

i wouldnt say totally, maybe in the archer sense( i dont know dont have an archer ) but for a sin I think LA is totally appropriate considering their damage output and healing power with bloodpaint, but archers do not have this at least the healing portion.....

truekossy · July 2011

What Ast said pretty much sums it up.

http://pwcalc.com/2b87a2c28b7336eb HA in full TT80 greens. No shards/refines, just self buffs.
http://pwcalc.com/9b180954757ea6c8 AA in full TT80 greens. No shards/refines, just self buffs.
http://pwcalc.com/46ffe74cbddf52b4 LA in full TT80 greens. No shards/refines, just self buffs.

Notice how both the arcane and heavy players have a greater physical AND magical defense than the LA? With how (almost) every caster in the game has a p.def self-buff, plus can focus their weak point via ornaments for greater effect AND with how hard it is to gain mag defense compared to how easy it is to gain phys defense? Yeah, I'd say it's pretty much fine as-is.

@Wesson: Yeah... you really have it a lot easier in LA as a sin than an archer of the same level does. Try running around without any of your self-buffs or stealth and seeing how difficult things suddenly become. Then you'll realize what life is like for an archer until they get to the point where they can actually kill their opponents before getting damaged too badly (IE: +10 Lunar bows do triple digits on a well-geared arcane. Meanwhile, the arcane can easily nuke an archer in that kind of gear to oblivion).

Kittennice - Heavens Tear · July 2011

Magic never misses
Melee can miss
Thus extra def goes to melee users

StormHydra - Sanctuary · July 2011

Reduce physical damage by 1%/2% etc is overrated.

1% physical damage reduction is equivalent to about 50-200 phys. def. (depending on how much phys defense you already have, since it has diminishing returns)

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The game makes it extremely easy to get high pdef

-Physical Defense buffs are much more effective than magic resistance buffs
-Physical ornaments refine higher than mag ornaments
-There is a reduce physical damage stat but no reduce magical
-garnet shards give more pdef than sapphire gives mres

Mres is much harder to get. HA and AA are balanced, it's LA that totally sucks.

false....

archer got problem, sin is pretty fine sine he got dead nerves and 25% for reduce dmg to 1 or 50% for no stun etc, stealth, stuns overall he got enough skill what help to survive , u got 2 skill a insine nice dodge buff and 6 sec immune to movement blockage what cost 1 spark and harder to gain chi than sin,what is 100% useless ...

Escorian - Dreamweaver · July 2011

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

false....

archer got problem, sin is pretty fine sine he got dead nerves and 25% for reduce dmg to 1 or 50% for no stun etc, stealth, stuns overall he got any skill what help to survive , u got a insine nice dodge buff,what is 100% useless ...

those are sin skills not LA Armor you can make a sin HA and those skills still work the same way. LA Armor has the worst defense and just a little bit more HP Per refine then AA. b:bye

truekossy · July 2011

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

herpaderp

No duh. Of course the class with as many survival skills as the rest put together will be fine wearing the crappiest armor in the game. Doesn't change the fact that LA still sucks.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2011

Originally Posted by Escorian - Dreamweaver
those are sin skills not LA Armor you can make a sin HA and those skills still work the same way. LA Armor has the worst defense and just a little bit more HP Per refine then AA.

u can do HA armor archer too but useless

the point on HA user with that def is pair high hp+ high def or higher def lv or something

and i doubt most of sin use HA :P

truekossy wrote: »

No duh. Of course the class with as many survival skills as the rest put together will be fine wearing the crappiest armor in the game. Doesn't change the fact that LA still sucks.

indifferent if like u said he got many survival skills not like example archer :P
he feel more that pain until sin kinda king in 1vs1 pvp vs 2/3 class

truekossy · July 2011

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

*more *****

You completely miss the point here. Do you have ANY idea what you're talking about or are you just pulling **** out of a hat and trying to present it as a fact, regardless of how utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand it is?

Burnout - Harshlands · July 2011

The posts make it sound like LA is the worst armor around, but in all honesty it's not as bad as it seems. Might be bad for low lvl ungeared people, but after buffs and orn refinements, LA comes out pretty nicely. Try killing a full R9 archer who has 77 def. lvls and knows how to time Wings of Grace / stunning arrow effectively. It's hella hard when you take into account their dps potential.

Also, arcanes don't naturally have higher p. def. Try comparing a cleric or psychic's p. def to a barb. Wizards and mystics get 100% p. def self buff as part of their defensive skillset, while HA's get stuff like marrows, invoke, diamond sutra, etc. Ever seen a BM with near robe-like m. def?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2011

truekossy wrote: »

You completely miss the point here. Do you have ANY idea what you're talking about or are you just pulling **** out of a hat and trying to present it as a
fact, regardless of how utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand it is?

more irrelevant if sin get better LA ....

The posts make it sound like LA is the worst armor around, but in all honesty it's not as bad as it seems. Might be bad for low lvl ungeared people, but after buffs and orn refinements, LA comes out pretty nicely. Try killing a full R9 archer who has 77 def. lvls and knows how to time Wings of Grace / stunning arrow effectively. It's hella hard when you take into account their dps potential.

Also, arcanes don't naturally have higher p. def. Try comparing a cleric or psychic's p. def to a barb. Wizards and mystics get 100% p. def self buff as part of their defensive skillset, while HA's get stuff like marrows, invoke, diamond sutra, etc. Ever seen a BM with near robe-like m. def?

@truekossy this ^ irrelevant too?

since insine att lv the $>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the armor weakness in def

before that much att lv **** and uberpacks and gears was alot veno and some cleric too who choosed LA over AA, mostly archer who got the lowest profit from them a bit but in late game with ++++ gear that kinda unimportant,only who got betterimportant

StormHydra - Sanctuary · July 2011

HA users get much more HP per VIT than casters.

truekossy · July 2011

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

The posts make it sound like LA is the worst armor around, but in all honesty it's not as bad as it seems. Might be bad for low lvl ungeared people, but after buffs and orn refinements, LA comes out pretty nicely. Try killing a full R9 archer who has 77 def. lvls and knows how to time Wings of Grace / stunning arrow effectively. It's hella hard when you take into account their dps potential.

Also, arcanes don't naturally have higher p. def. Try comparing a cleric or psychic's p. def to a barb. Wizards and mystics get 100% p. def self buff as part of their defensive skillset, while HA's get stuff like marrows, invoke, diamond sutra, etc. Ever seen a BM with near robe-like m. def?

*sigh*

The closest this has been to saying arcanes have a higher base phys defense is when it was mentioned that arcanes can get a phys defense similar to that of someone in HA because p.def is so much easier to get than m.def... which is, quite frankly, true. And we've all agreed that Heavy has the best overall defenses.

However, fact of the matter is, regardless of how high up on the charts your gear is,... LA still sucks compared to arcane or heavy!

http://pwcalc.com/d8599783ebd5c021 R9+12 Demon BM with full jades. P.def/M.def self-buffed: 11k/14k (demon marrow up, of course)
http://pwcalc.com/2b7cf6084c771a26 R9+12 Sage Wiz with full jades. P.def/M.def self-buffed: 9.6k/14k (and this is being nice and giving an advantage to both the archer and BM since we all know demon stone barrier gives a greater p.def boost than sage)
http://pwcalc.com/acbfea7a85d96860 R9+12 Demon Archer with full jades: P.def/M.def self-buffed: 8.8k/5.3k

Oh lookie, the one in LA has the worst physical AND magical defense! Again! Oh and before you say it, buffs wouldn't change that LA would STILL have the worst defense.

tl;dr: No matter what you try and use to justify it. Fact of the matter is that LA is the worst armor defensively out of all three armor types. This has already been proven and brought up countless times in the archer forums and in case you haven't noticed... now that we have easily accessible (relatively speaking) high-end gears... casters are just going pure robe from the start. And even back when it was still expensive, the general consensus was always that you'd restat from LA to pure at higher levels when you had better gear to do so. That, in and of itself, shows you that even the classes that aren't locked into LA have come to realize its inherent inferiority.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

Hi, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Thank you for firmly proving, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you are clueless in this discussion and that your opinions should be henceforth ignored. For a while there, I thought you were just another regular troll or something. Much easier to accept you being flat out ignorant/stupid/etc.

Burnout - Harshlands · July 2011

truekossy wrote: »

*sigh*

The closest this has been to saying arcanes have a higher base phys defense is when it was mentioned that arcanes can get a phys defense similar to that of someone in HA because p.def is so much easier to get than m.def... which is, quite frankly, true. And we've all agreed that Heavy has the best overall defenses.

However, fact of the matter is, regardless of how high up on the charts your gear is,... LA still sucks compared to arcane or heavy!

http://pwcalc.com/d8599783ebd5c021 R9+12 Demon BM with full jades. P.def/M.def self-buffed: 11k/14k (demon marrow up, of course)
http://pwcalc.com/2b7cf6084c771a26 R9+12 Sage Wiz with full jades. P.def/M.def self-buffed: 9.6k/14k (and this is being nice and giving an advantage to both the archer and BM since we all know demon stone barrier gives a greater p.def boost than sage)
http://pwcalc.com/acbfea7a85d96860 R9+12 Demon Archer with full jades: P.def/M.def self-buffed: 8.8k/5.3k

Oh lookie, the one in LA has the worst physical AND magical defense! Again! Oh and before you say it, buffs wouldn't change that LA would STILL have the worst defense.

tl;dr: No matter what you try and use to justify it. Fact of the matter is that LA is the worst armor defensively out of all three armor types. This has already been proven and brought up countless times in the archer forums and in case you haven't noticed... now that we have easily accessible (relatively speaking) high-end gears... casters are just going pure robe from the start. And even back when it was still expensive, the general consensus was always that you'd restat from LA to pure at higher levels when you had better gear to do so. That, in and of itself, shows you that even the classes that aren't locked into LA have come to realize its inherent inferiority.

Thank you for firmly proving, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you are clueless in this discussion and that your opinions should be henceforth ignored. For a while there, I thought you were just another regular troll or something. Much easier to accept you being flat out ignorant/stupid/etc.

You missed the point of my post entirely. Take off ALL self buffs. The wizard gets the LOWEST p. def out of all 3. In fact, the archer has TWICE the base p. def that a wizard has.

Now take into account stone barrier, but give both classes BM and cleric armor buffs.

http://pwcalc.com/cfc3104bc09bde0d

http://pwcalc.com/150f5406d890c099

Who has more p. def after full BM and cleric buffs, the archer or the wizard?

Fact is, 100% of a low number is worse than 60% of a higher number, which is the case here after full buffs.

The archer also has 3 more defense levels than the mage. 77 vs 74. which is what? around 2-3% less damage from both phy and mag?

Now, factor in Wings of Grace, an archer self buff that reduces all damage by 30%. Now who has the better survival?

LA is not THAT bad. People only think its bad because sins stay aps and have **** refines on crappy gears just so they can get some -int, or archer who go +12 bow and +5 on everything else.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2011

truekossy wrote: »

Thank you for firmly proving, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you are clueless in this discussion and that your opinions should be henceforth ignored. For a while there, I thought you were just another regular troll or something. Much easier to accept you being flat out ignorant/stupid/etc.

exclude trolling and quote somebody with ur fake text prove u have right?
sad

awasome numbers fatcs, pls lets do a vote, how many ppl thing assassin is underpowered coz of light armor oh sorry u just talk about game nothing else

Unbalanced gears between HA and AA

Comments

Categories