Sage vs. Demon. Lets do some Math.

I know I know. Another Sage vs. Demon thread but I still feel like people are underinformed about their choices so I thought I'd make a post explaining the mathematics and my views and hear some rebuttles.

I have leveled both a sage sin and a demon sin and I have no goal to say one is better than the other, just to explain the positives of both unobjectively. My initial goal was have the Sage Sin as my "true" endgame character but farm for it using my demon sin, but as I get closer to endgame I am very much considering that demon may be the best better culti choice for endgame also. Here is why:

Dps and survivability are our goals. As a sin, paint+dps adds to our survivability. Dps=aps x dph x crit rate x attack levels. Both attack speed and damage per hit are important. There are about 5 decent daggers at endgame. Rank 9, G15, Barrier Thorns, Rank 6 Hitmans Legends, and Rank 8, roughly organized from best to worst but lets be honest: Rank 9 is endgame. You can get -int and more dmg from G15 (.-05 unless you are unholily lucky), -.1 from Hitmans, -.1 from Barriers. Rank 9 and Rank 8 have no -int but have dph to make up the loss. I think we can all agree Rank 9, despite its lack of interval is our endgame goal because it out DDs everything else.

For that reason I'll be using this build as my "endgame" goal. Shards may very but the gear is pretty well agreed on as best with only small variations.
http://pwcalc.com/0947b9d695ed8b51

So. Sage with rank 9 maxes at 2.86 and demon maxes at 4.0 with spark. With genie sage can hit 3.33.

Sage will hit
(9415+11471)/2 = (10443 dph average x 2.86) x 1.35 crit rate = 40320 dps unsparked
(18550+22601)/2 = (20575.5 dph average x 2.86) x 1.35 crit rate = 79442 dps sparked
(18550+22601)/2 = (20575.5 dph average x 3.33 windshield) x 1.35 crit rate = 92497 dps windshielded

Demon will hit
(9141 + 11138)/2 = (10139.5 dph average x 2.86) x 1.37 crit rate = 39729 dps unsparked
(18276+22268)/2 = (20272 dph average x 4.0) x 1.37 crit rate =111091 dps sparked


So, Sage Mastery makes little difference in evening things out. Especially endgame. The lower quality the weapon, and the lower refines the weapon the more a sage mastery helps but as a weapon improves and is refined, and including sparks it favors Demon Dagger Mastery. Multiply the Sage dph with its mastery (20575.5) by the 35% crit rate and Demon dph with dagger mastery (20272) by 37% and you can see that endgame Demon Mastery is better than Sage Mastery.

A breakdown of the numbers above:
Sage unsparked does 1.5% more dps than Demon unsparked.
Demon sparked does 39.8% more dps than Sage sparked.
Demon sparked does 20.1% more dps than Sage using windshield and spark.
As a Sin aproaches endgame Demon Mastery becomes greater than Sage Mastery.
The disclaimer is that this is endgame.



Okay, but sage has more survivability, right? Yes. 3% sage bloodpaint means they get 150% more heals than demon doing the same amount of damage. A Demon Sin can do 140% of the dmg a Sage Sin can, making the difference in paint heals about 7%. Much less than the "I get 50% more heals than you" a sage Sin taunts, but still more. That combined with the fact that a Sage sin has 25% dmg reduction from their spark. Even if they windshield for more dmg they at least still have the option of more attack, or more defense, which a demon sin doesn't have allowing Sage sins more versability. Another argument is how important is dmg reduction in a class that has the highest evasion rate in the game and skills able to evade 1/3 of enemy skill attacks?




Skill choices:
Lets pretend half of us didn't pick our culti based entirely on the spark. Here is a list of important skills that people would consider sage or demon better. I compiled this list about a year ago when I picked my culti http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=922702

Bloodpaint: Obvious winner here is Sage. 50% more heals and a squad buff. Argument is why pick your culti path on a squad buff that you can get an alt or a squadmate to give you?

Wolf Emblem: I'd say the winner is Sage, but only for those that are poor at remembering to constantly buff. Double the rage dmg for half the time, or half the rage dmg all the time? Honestly, I prefer demon because it last 30 seconds and almost anything but a WB doesn't. I'd rather have 40%more rage dmg for 30 seconds and have a boss die in 10 seconds than 20% more rage dmg as a 30 minute buff. I think the benefit of sage is most sins do not keep this buff on half the time but save it for only bosses. I give the edge to Sage slightly but also note that in places like Nirvana where bosses last 30 seconds this would increase a demon sins DD output more than sage Emblem would increase theirs.

Focused Mind: An important skill, and I'd have to give the edge to Sage. 33% to evade enemies skills, or 25% to evade enemy skills and 20% chance to avoid status effects. Demon version is great for when Maze steps is on cd, and someone is trying to stun you, but increasing your chances from 1/4 to 1/3 to evade their skill entirely is probably better.

Rib Strike: There are better ways to reduce an enemies hp by 10%. *Points to demon dps* 111k damage per second sounds like a better way of knocking off 10% hp. The real purpose of this skill is survivability so I give the edge to demon for 65% slower attack speed debuff.

Shadow Escape: Although the dispel is useful, a sin has no problems getting chi. Especially a demon sin attacking at 4.0+. This one is close also, but I'd say the decreased cd is more useful because of how many times in pvp I've wanted shadow escape, in pve I've needed shadow escape, and in pve where it would have been a convenience to have it ready. I think demon is better.

Tackling Slash: Sage. Paralyzes for long means it does its purpose even longer as opposed to demons slow effect where opponents can still start kitting again.

Throatcut: Although sage would take any uncertainty out of this skill missing, when demon procs and you suddenly have a sealed, paralyzed, amped opponent its beautiful. 25% chance of the amp effect happening sucks but not a huge deal for only 1 spark and I consider it a better deal than a 5% increase in sealing that sage gives. Demon wins.

Headhunt: 6 seconds stun vs. a sin saving chi? Demon wins.

Deaden Nerves: My major deterent to even bothering with this skill is as a sin 20% more hp maybe buys me 1 or 2 more hits. It helps, I use it, but less often than I should. Because of that cd is not a problem for me and would much more prefer the 35% hp.

Maze Steps: Longer anti stun = win. Sage.

Earthen Rift: Rank 9 has a range increase. If thats endgame, you don't need it as much as your skill bonus anyways. I'd prefer the dmg increase Sage gives.

Subsea: 8 seconds 50% is amazing, tied in with coordinated HF, Mire, and Amp but as since groups rarely can fully coordinate on a 6-9 second HF, a 10 second mire, a 15 second amp, and an 8 second Subsea I'd prefer the 30% Subsea. Especially since as a sin you are prolly the main DD and amping other people and not yourself would cause aggro shift. Demon Subsea would help you keep aggro and correlate with your sparks.

PowerDash: ... I used to prefer sage, but since CCing is gone its a dead skill to me.

Inner Harmony: Demon, Emergency heal to get you to your next spark.

Shadow Teleport: Although the decreased cd would be awesome Demons 5 second stun totally trumps it.



People used to think Sage had the best skills and demon only had the spark, but as you can see their skills are pretty evenly matched.