Human Or Fox?

Heltis - Archosaur
Heltis - Archosaur Posts: 17 Arc User
edited June 2011 in Venomancer
b:laugh What the title says.

Here's what I mean

Is Fox form better than the Human Form for a Veno?

Which one is better?

Which skills/spells are better? The Fox Forms or the Human Forms?



I also want to know which pet is better:

Pinnaer Foxwing or Petite Sawfly?
Post edited by Heltis - Archosaur on

Comments

  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Well, first of all, you'll be using both fox and human form skills. I don't think I ever saw a veno using just human form skills or just fox form skills. Both sides of the tree have excellent skills that excel in a variety of situations.

    For example, venomous scarab is the most basic attack for a caster veno. Decent mana cost for damage and its cooldown. And then for fox, another example would be the amplify damage curse, which makes a boss take 20% extra damage, also important. (correct me anyone if I'm wrong, I haven't played for 8 months and just came back)

    I suggest you read up more guides or suggestions on what build you want to do and what skills you are looking for. Those two are only small examples of what a veno can do.

    As for the pet, I would suggest you keep the sawfly. If you have the patience to level it up, it's worth it.
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  • Narafuna - Dreamweaver
    Narafuna - Dreamweaver Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    We don't have a "human" form. We have an anthropomorphic form. Humans are those filthy creatures with no fur or tails.

    IJS
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  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Narafuna - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    We don't have a "human" form. We have an anthropomorphic form. Humans are those filthy creatures with no fur or tails.

    IJS

    Heh heh, you do have a point there b:chuckle
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  • Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver
    Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver Posts: 468 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Narafuna - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    We don't have a "human" form. We have an anthropomorphic form. Humans are those filthy creatures with no fur or tails.

    IJS

    Venos are so hot... b:dirtyb:dirty
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    You *need* to use both.

    However, if you go arcane, you'll probably find yourself using caster form more often than fox, only really dropping into fox for amp and purge.
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Narafuna - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    We don't have a "human" form. We have an anthropomorphic form. Humans are those filthy creatures with no fur or tails.

    IJS
    Actually, Venomancers are kemonomimi. Barbarians are anthropomorphic. Sorry I'm an anthro artist since the age of 5 so I had to correct you b:surrender



    Like everybody said, you have to use both forms if you want to get the best out of your Venomancer. Each sides have excellent skills that come to play in different situations. The real question for you is are you going to be strictly PvE or are you going to PK/TW in the future? Because some skills may seem useless in PvE but are godly in PvP.

    There are some really nice guides on Pwpedia for Venomancers. In depth information for the skills and where they should be used. A good start is this guide.
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  • Salasyn - Heavens Tear
    Salasyn - Heavens Tear Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I find I use foxform just as much as human form, even though I am an arcane veno. If you don't amp/purge/myriad rainbow bosses that squads will not like you as much.
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  • Narafuna - Dreamweaver
    Narafuna - Dreamweaver Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Actually, Venomancers are kemonomimi. Barbarians are anthropomorphic. Sorry I'm an anthro artist since the age of 5 so I had to correct you b:surrender
    You did not "correct" me, as I was already correct.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

    And "kemonomimi" is a term used in otaku culture for a subtype of anthropomorphic character which we happen to be. Us Venos are "light" anthropomorphic, and Barbs are "heavy" anthropomorphic.
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Heh heh, you do have a point there b:chuckle
    Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Venos are so hot... b:dirtyb:dirty
    <3
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  • sesusixo
    sesusixo Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    You *need* to use both.

    However, if you go arcane, you'll probably find yourself using caster form more often than fox, only really dropping into fox for amp and purge.

    ditto. i only use fox if situation requires it.
    rushing through mobs, purge, and amp usually.
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    It makes no sense whatsoever to choose only human or only fox skills. To best make use of a venomancer go down both paths and be selective at the start about which skills you advance.
  • Itori - Lost City
    Itori - Lost City Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I would suggest you focus on one tree more than the other. It wasn't up until 7x that I actually started leveling my fox form skills (other than purge and amp, which where already maxed) Which form you use depends on the situation, really. I see some venos only go into fox for amp while I find myself switching forms from boss to boss. I know venos that dont have many fox skills while I maxed and even got demon version for quite a few. It all depends on your preference.
    When I was lower level venomous, ironwood and heal pet were pretty much all I used, but I also leveled brambles and amp for bh squads.

    The Petite Sawfly has a much higher attack, while the flying fox is more defensive. But when you kill things faster you wont have to heal much anyways.
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  • Nunxbl - Archosaur
    Nunxbl - Archosaur Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I'm man so why I haven't played on veno much. But I have been keen on fox form veno. I have question: are there any1 who play main as fox form? Are you heavy or light armored? b:chuckle
  • LenieClarke - Heavens Tear
    LenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    as i understand it, HA venos tend to play largely (though certainly not entirely) in fox form. i'm leaning more and more towards that playstyle myself, even though i'm AA; it's getting easier as i level up my fox tree skills. in regular grinding i can keep up my HP and MP pretty well by spamming leech and consume spirit, i think i have them both at level 5 or 6 now.
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  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    as i understand it, HA venos tend to play largely (though certainly not entirely) in fox form. i'm leaning more and more towards that playstyle myself, even though i'm AA; it's getting easier as i level up my fox tree skills. in regular grinding i can keep up my HP and MP pretty well by spamming leech and consume spirit, i think i have them both at level 5 or 6 now.

    +1 This. As a pure Arcane veno, I switch back and forth from fox form all the time still, due to all the versatility in skills that a veno can use. I mostly use fox form for the speed, amp, and purge during buffing bosses. But I don't ever forget to use leech and sometimes befuddling. I'm still trying to get my cultivation so I can use demon crush vigor for a chance at a free spark ^^
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  • lululullaby
    lululullaby Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I noticed that my friend gets sidetracked when she's playing, and it's really funny to watch her just jump around and do something completely unrelated to to the . . . quest . . . mission . . . (?) or whatever you call it. b:laugh
  • Mauntille - Heavens Tear
    Mauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    It's the same as any other class. We have multiple trees and completely neglecting a tree is not using your class to the fullest.

    Think of it this way: a pure mage tree veno (not even amp) could be compared to a cleric that only heals (never attacks/debuffs). A pure fox tree veno could be compared to a cleric that never heals or buffs.

    There are necessary skills to both trees. For example, a primarily fox form veno may lead off with Ironwood before dropping down into fox form and a mage form veno should definitely be using Amplify Damage.

    In the early levels, it's okay to focus on one tree over the other because resources can be low, but once you get about 80+, you should definitely be maxing everything.

    @Nunxbl - Normally the venos that I see going fox form and HA at later levels start off as either LA or Pure Magic (LA so that you only have to stat out your dex or Pure Magic so that you only have to stat out your Mag). Personally, I'd prefer the LA -> HA route if you're going HA and using fox form primarily. But keep in mind, LA isn't that great of end game gear for classes that don't pul from dex to attack, so you'll definitely want to start switching over your pieces to either HA or Pure Arcane eventually.
  • Morell - Lost City
    Morell - Lost City Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    depends on build..

    and i believe the most logical build for veno is arcane. i m not saying most fun, anyone can prefer something different. but, i say arcane because,

    as veno you ll never get an hp to rival a bms or barbs or etc.. you always have your personal tank with you, so you might as well not waste points on vit.. this is for PvE of course. on PvP, you know offence is the best defence if you ve seen a psy in action. i find that my best chance has always been to hit real hard and fast in PvP, disregarding the nix of course. against a powerful opponent pet only gives you time to attack. so you need to kill fast. and ranged skills are also best in this kind of situation. so you might as well pile your points on mag, instead of str.

    however you ll always need fox form, because amp damage is incredibly useful. other than that, i see no point in other builds. theres also, imho no point in dividing the points.. having a little bit of eveything is not such a good idea when you can have 1 huge thing that pwns. (eg a crit once in a while, not bad but also not great melee hits, not bad but not great mag hits... its better to have a great mag attack and be done with it.)
  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Not that I disagree that venos should be primarily mages (for the versatility), but there are some things to consider.
    Morell wrote:
    as veno you ll never get an hp to rival a bms or barbs or etc..

    Sage Fox Form gives 150% more pdef, 250% more acc. Sage Melee Mastery 200% dmg increase.

    -Compare this to Sage Assassin: No pdef increase (but def increase 120% for 15s after eruption (not consistent). No Acc booster. Dagger Devotion only 90% increase.

    Even as a pure mag, my fox form melee dmg is decent and roughly comparable to 1-1 mag dmg even with -48%ch.
    Mauntille wrote:
    There are necessary skills to both trees. For example, a primarily fox form veno may lead off with Ironwood before dropping down into fox form and a mage form veno should definitely be using Amplify Damage.

    My guess is that a fox would have Pierce on their pet and not waste time or coin on Ironwood.
  • Mauntille - Heavens Tear
    Mauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    thumbs wrote: »
    My guess is that a fox would have Pierce on their pet and not waste time or coin on Ironwood.

    The person I was thinking of used Venomous -> Ironwood partially as a lure. Depending on the pet, you could argue that Pierce is the expense being cut out. Even if they don't use Ironwood, I'm sure there are other mage form skills that could be found useful.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I just met a venomancer who didn't have amp, or purge.
    TO be fair, it was their alt, and only level 70. But it certainly didn't feel like they wanted to be a venomancer very much.

    The flip side...
    Well, ironwood is better than pet-pierce, but not vastly greater. The only irreplacable mage skills are natures-grace and metabolic boost. (Consume spirit and leech life are nice, but nowhere near enough). The two mage AOEs are pretty damn good too, of course.

    The downside is that if you're in foxform almost all of the time then you probably want to concentrate on physical attack, which is hard for a veno to do.

    Overall, if anything, I'd say veno's are more aimed at foxform than not. We get a (pretty darn big) boost in foxform, and don't lose anything for it (where barbs lose weapon damage by going tiger)
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    thumbs wrote: »
    My guess is that a fox would have Pierce on their pet and not waste time or coin on Ironwood.
    That's not a bad idea in theory, but what a waste of a skill, especially if it happen to be on a herc. I use my veno has a second class when doing duo Nirvana with my wife (her on cleric and BM, me on BM/sin and veno), and while it's certainly a waste of MP, I just use fox form mostly (veno is HA/AA but this one favours HA and using phys rings, -int gear, and garnet sharded magic sword) and myriad and take a similar gamble that demon veno's take with ironwood.

    Whoever mentioned accuracy, even though they have accuracy boosts in fox form, especially sage, it's usually not sufficient unless it's well over 90% hit. My 100 veno's is 89% with sage FF, meaning I'll eventually get her lunar or COA rings instead of ROTHL. My 92 veno being LA has 95%, which is sufficient.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Odd.

    I've found the accuracy boost sufficient as a Magic/Vitality veno. I rarely miss, and most of my fox-skills are auto-hit too.

    Does it all change as I move to the next tier of bosses or something?
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Mobs have differing evasion. In frost my 100 veno with the same gear has 94%, in Nirvana, 89-90%. There's plenty of factors that change one's chance to hit i.e. improving on accuracy, like dexterity, bonus accuracy % gear, and fighting mobs with lower evasion.

    After so many attacks it's likely that you don't micromanage each hit (when I do, it's a miss relatively often), but in cases like Nirvana, an arcane will miss quite often in Nirvana unless they have bonus accuracy via the methods in last paragraph. I don't think this is as big of an issue, however, on FF bosses or especially any mob that has a normal level instead of [?], the latter tend to have a much higher evasion of phys attacks.

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