Wizard Vs Sin = Wizzy Always Loose

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Hey guys, reason I am posting this is because I get pked by sins in the cube of fate everytime and every strategy I came up with failed. The way pwi designed Sins is almost OP against a wiz. I mean, Force of Will was like the best skill of a wizard cause no skill can remove it like the barb and bm anti-movement skill. But apparently a Sin can now get rid of it. So Force of Will won't work. And Sophoric whisper is basically same situation as Force of Will. So Basically stunning a Sin is out of the question. Basically my point is not How to beat a Sin, but how to Acquire a Opportunity to attack. I mean Sins are easy to kill by a wizard with 1 or 2 attacks. But the main question is, how to acquire a chance to attack with a Sin having the ability to Stun Lock, Stealth and Stun and attack, And especially with a High APS that can kill you very easily, or even in 1 attack. Now I know a huge wallet can basically make you beat a sin, unbeatable against a sin, but I am trying to avoid that. Is there any way or tactic.
The situation would be like this, you are in a room in the cube, a sin is hiding, appears and stuns you, and with High APS, kills you instantly. How is a wizy suppose to beat that.
I currently have 10K Physical resistance, 5K hp. I tried using Genies Absolute Domain skill, didn't work, I tried expel, didn't work. So idk what other ideas to come up with to actually give me a chance to fight back.

Angelstealth - Harshlands · June 2011

im not sure how everything works on a wizard but sins with aps can be very difficult. imo i would say fighting sins in rooms can be nerve wrecking but fighting one outside opens a new world of possibilities. anyway maybe try getting badge of courage. and make immunity pots. try to get occult ice for ur genie or at least fortify.

these r just 3 genie skills of many that can be effective against sins. also study some sins in pvp and see what they normally do and feed off of that. hope this helps.

Adroit - Lost City · June 2011

Well sins will always have the advantage. An equally skilled/geared sin will take you down probably 99% of the time. It sucks, but that's pwi for you.

Luckily, most sins are absolutely **** and couldn't pk their way out of a cardboard box, so there are a could things you can do to improve your odds. Being that sins nearly always open with a control skill from stealth, your only option is going to be genie to survive that first attack. I've found domain to be nearly useless because it lasts half the time demon headhunt lasts.. and doesn't break the lock (or even save me.. my hp is poo). Expel is kinda neat in group pvp because it buys you time for your squad to take the sin down, but in 1v1 pvp it is nearly useless. I've found badge + fortify to be semi useful against the terribad sins, if they open with a stun.. badge and blink to get out of range. It's usually a good idea to fortify right after to resist a tele stun or occult, but some sins are so stupid it may not be necessary. Faith provides a similar function to badge + fortify in that it purifies you + makes you immune to status effects (not damage) for 5 seconds. It's great for a one time escape (takes a buttload of energy unfortunately). If you manage to survive the first couple seconds, I'd recommend jumping into the air if you were on the ground, or getting off your flying mount if you were already in the air. It just gives you an extra second where they will either be unable to hit you, or be hitting you at half damage.. and you can decide what to do next. If the sin didn't auto force stealth, an apoth like vacuity (so they can't hold u in place) or maybe even an immune might be a good idea. I've found sutra to be my best bet just because you can often immune + sutra and start pounding them before they realized what happened. It really depends on the situation, but just like any type of 1v1, the key is to mix it up. Try to be unpredictable and outplay the sin. So if you notice that every time you break their first stun they force stealth, you might just badge and conserve a little genie energy (maybe be able to badge the next time they come out too). Once you know a sin is in the area, try insta cast emberstorm or wotp anything nearby in an attempt to knock them out and catch them by surprise (most cube rooms at least have an npc you could target.. or some mob that aoes or something..). It also helps to always keep moving (as annoying as this is) and jumping around like an idiot so they have a harder time catching you. Most of this was aimed towards aps sins, but if a sin is one shotting you from stealth you might consider pdef charms as well, 100 pstones for 20 half damage charms isn't that expensive.

Just remember there is literally nothing you can do to combat a good sin, even without stealth they have a noticable advantage.. and with stealth it really isn't a contest. Just try your best and hope the sin is garbage (pretty safe bet on LC), or never go anywhere alone >.>

Ketania - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Well, first you could try not +12ing a rank 6 weapon and get some rank 9 gear, and survive a bit better?

HexOmega - Dreamweaver · June 2011

yes, pdef charms is something widely unknown by people and saves my butt many times

its to survive the innitial hit that might just 1shot you, now you MIGHT be able to get off your defensive skill and die 5 seconds later or you can steal your allies enough time to kill the fish

winning by yourself be absolutely rare, it happens tho, when they are way toooo self-confident or simply noob

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Ketania - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, first you could try not +12ing a rank 6 weapon and get some rank 9 gear, and survive a bit better?

I don't see how my weapon has anything to do with this. My weapon is strong enough to 1 shot sins, But the problem is getting the opportunity to do it.

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Well sins will always have the advantage. An equally skilled/geared sin will take you down probably 99% of the time. It sucks, but that's pwi for you.

Luckily, most sins are absolutely **** and couldn't pk their way out of a cardboard box, so there are a could things you can do to improve your odds. Being that sins nearly always open with a control skill from stealth, your only option is going to be genie to survive that first attack. I've found domain to be nearly useless because it lasts half the time demon headhunt lasts.. and doesn't break the lock (or even save me.. my hp is poo). Expel is kinda neat in group pvp because it buys you time for your squad to take the sin down, but in 1v1 pvp it is nearly useless. I've found badge + fortify to be semi useful against the terribad sins, if they open with a stun.. badge and blink to get out of range. It's usually a good idea to fortify right after to resist a tele stun or occult, but some sins are so stupid it may not be necessary. Faith provides a similar function to badge + fortify in that it purifies you + makes you immune to status effects (not damage) for 5 seconds. It's great for a one time escape (takes a buttload of energy unfortunately). If you manage to survive the first couple seconds, I'd recommend jumping into the air if you were on the ground, or getting off your flying mount if you were already in the air. It just gives you an extra second where they will either be unable to hit you, or be hitting you at half damage.. and you can decide what to do next. If the sin didn't auto force stealth, an apoth like vacuity (so they can't hold u in place) or maybe even an immune might be a good idea. I've found sutra to be my best bet just because you can often immune + sutra and start pounding them before they realized what happened. It really depends on the situation, but just like any type of 1v1, the key is to mix it up. Try to be unpredictable and outplay the sin. So if you notice that every time you break their first stun they force stealth, you might just badge and conserve a little genie energy (maybe be able to badge the next time they come out too). Once you know a sin is in the area, try insta cast emberstorm or wotp anything nearby in an attempt to knock them out and catch them by surprise (most cube rooms at least have an npc you could target.. or some mob that aoes or something..). It also helps to always keep moving (as annoying as this is) and jumping around like an idiot so they have a harder time catching you. Most of this was aimed towards aps sins, but if a sin is one shotting you from stealth you might consider pdef charms as well, 100 pstones for 20 half damage charms isn't that expensive.

Just remember there is literally nothing you can do to combat a good sin, even without stealth they have a noticable advantage.. and with stealth it really isn't a contest. Just try your best and hope the sin is garbage (pretty safe bet on LC), or never go anywhere alone
>.>

Thanks for the help but how can you instant cast emberstorm, no wizard skill can be used without a target, if it did, it would make things more fair x_x

Arenaceous - Lost City · June 2011

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thanks for the help but how can you instant cast emberstorm, no wizard skill can be used without a target, if it did, it would make things more fair x_x

He's talking about targeting a nearby mob/npc and double clicking the skill.. But yea, there is no possibility to cast it without a target.

Ketania - Heavens Tear · June 2011

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't see how my weapon has anything to do with this. My weapon is strong enough to 1 shot sins, But the problem is getting the opportunity to do it.

I'll let you read between the lines and figure it out for yourself.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · June 2011

He,he. That's why stopped to play this f. unbalanced game. I got pk in cube also by the sins. So it **** me off so much, that I stopped to play.
BTW. You can have even rank 32 weapon with +105 refined with 1M damage. If you have no chance to use it, because of stunt, seal, sleep etc. it's worthless. Sins are broken in many ways. You have to deal with it, or stop to play. For me it was end of game as a wizard.

jackthelegend · June 2011

Have ya tried bramble ? That oughtta scare the sin of, unless they bow u to death -.-

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Ketania - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'll let you read between the lines and figure it out for yourself.

Reading between the lines... Really, we are having a conversation and you have to bring that up? I am not trying to be rude hun, but my point is my weapon has nothing to do with beating a sin and loosing. My point was having the opportunity to attack. Now rank 9 sure would be nice, but still, the result would be the same since sins have High Ap, High Damage, High Crit, Stealth, ABility to resist seal and sleep. Thanks for your suggestion though

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

He,he. That's why stopped to play this f. unbalanced game. I got pk in cube also by the sins. So it **** me off so much, that I stopped to play.
BTW. You can have even rank 32 weapon with +105 refined with 1M damage. If you have no chance to use it, because of stunt, seal, sleep etc. it's worthless. Sins are broken in many ways. You have to deal with it, or stop to play. For me it was end of game as a wizard.

I agree with you, sins are op, no matter how much you upgrade your gear, they are op one way or the other. But I am not giving up the game because of sins. There is more to the game then PVP

thumbs · June 2011

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I agree with you, sins are op, no matter how much you upgrade your gear, they are op one way or the other. But I am not giving up the game because of sins. There is more to the game then PVP

Wiz are simply UP. I'm enjoying playing my wiz, but as far as the game goes: it's simply not the best at anything. My sin is 3.33 aps sage with all the great sage skills except for Subsea, has over 5k hp, +3 or better on phys ornaments. I don't consider it OP at all at PvE and there's a fortune invested in it. My veno still out performs it at most tasks.

Adroit - Lost City · June 2011

thumbs wrote: »

Wiz are simply UP. I'm enjoying playing my wiz, but as far as the game goes: it's simply not the best at anything. My sin is 3.33 aps sage with all the great sage skills except for Subsea, has over 5k hp, +3 or better on phys ornaments. I don't consider it OP at all at PvE and there's a fortune invested in it. My veno still out performs it at most tasks.

wizards are the best at dropping ultis.. no other class really even comes close.

Scuzeme - Dreamweaver · June 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

wizards are the best at dropping ultis.. no other class really even comes close.

b:victoryTotally agreeb:victory

thumbs · June 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

wizards are the best at dropping ultis.. no other class really even comes close.

1) Wizards need to build heavier in pdef than other mage classes iif they want to do RB.
2) Veno spark: 900 vs Wiz 700
3) AoE follow up to anything a wiz does is likely Hailstorm which pales in comparison to Noxious
4) Veno can pull off almost 2 great aoe skills before wiz can pull of ulti unless using Sutra.
5)1-4 is just a veno excluding pet dmg/debuffs.\
6) Psychics, and clerics come pretty damn close, and Psys tnd to cast faster.

what's better: 2x 6k hits or 1 x10k hit in the same amount of time?

Adroit - Lost City · June 2011

thumbs wrote: »

1) Wizards need to build heavier in pdef than other mage classes iif they want to do RB.
2) Veno spark: 900 vs Wiz 700
3) AoE follow up to anything a wiz does is likely Hailstorm which pales in comparison to Noxious
4) Veno can pull off almost 2 great aoe skills before wiz can pull of ulti unless using Sutra.
5)1-4 is just a veno excluding pet dmg/debuffs.\
6) Psychics, and clerics come pretty damn close, and Psys tnd to cast faster.

what's better: 2x 6k hits or 1 x10k hit in the same amount of time?

1) wizards build chi faster than any other magic class
2) wizards have the longest range of any magic class
3) wizard ultis have the best effects
4) wizards have the largest number of ultis (don't need to worry about cooldowns)
5) psychic aoes have a much smaller aoe radius than wizards (lol we hit twice the area per aoe that they do)
6) parasitic nova "pales in comparison" to any of the wizard ultis
7) clerics have one ulti (cooldown again) + less range + less damage + lame effect + other uses for chi than dropping ultis (aka can't drop them as often)

To answer your question, that one 10k hit is much better.. better chance at bypassing a charm (or one shotting) an opponent. I thought even carebears had heard of charms and why DPH is important in pvp.

Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver · June 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

1) wizards build chi faster than any other magic class
2) wizards have the longest range of any magic class
3) wizard ultis have the best effects
4) wizards have the largest number of ultis (don't need to worry about cooldowns)
5) psychic aoes have a much smaller aoe radius than wizards (lol we hit twice the area per aoe that they do)
6) parasitic nova "pales in comparison" to any of the wizard ultis
7) clerics have one ulti (cooldown again) + less range + less damage + lame effect + other uses for chi than dropping ultis (aka can't drop them as often)

To answer your question, that one 10k hit is much better.. better chance at bypassing a charm (or one shotting) an opponent. I thought even carebears had heard of charms and why DPH is important in pvp.

I`m a Carebear b:surrenderb:surrender
The 10k damage of our ultis you mentioned above is in PVP?

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver · June 2011

Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I`m a Carebear b:surrenderb:surrender
The 10k damage of our ultis you mentioned above is in PVP?

I can easely get up to 16 with sage BIDS in TW XD

BTW: Lol at comparing a 2spark veno ulti (nova) with a nospark wizzy aoe (hailstorm). OBVIUSLY the 2spark skill is stronger than the nonspark skill

Noxius gase vs hailstorm on the other hand, I'd rather have a chance to freeze and a little bit less dmg, than some lame *** nonfactor poison DoT

MadameFrost - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Well Wizards attacks may be slow, but if we get channeling gear up to 50%, we cast pretty fast. And as for aoe attacks, hailstorm,emberstorm,will of the phoenix (favourite) and our 2 spark attacks (blade tempest + BID + Mountain Seize) are all aoe attacks. And very effective if I might add. I am not saying venos suck or anything. Every class has their advantage in some category in PVE, but in PVP, I have to admit, sins are op, I checked out their skills, I mean they have Anti-Stun, Anti-Seal + Sleep, they can go into and come out of stealh, they have Long stuns, High Damage, High Crit, High APS (if they spend cash, but still aps is still high). Sins skills are obviously Over powered since they pretty much have no weakness, I know they can get 1 shot by any magic class, but sadly with all of their abilities, they hardly give a chance or opportunity to any arcane class to attack. And with their deadon nerves, they can survive a deadly blow, so it will take 2 Hits to kill a sin. Now if we have a High Channeling, we can easily take a sin down in 2 shots no problem, but our Phy. Def. Will be weak and we won't stand a chance, and if we focus on Phys. Def. We won't have time to make 2 hits, not even 1. Now some people deny this idea that sins are OP because they love their sins, they enjoy them. And I admit they do look fun, but this causes an unbalance in the game. But what can I say, its PWI. I accept the fact thats why I give up on killing sins, going to keep doing cube no matter how much I get killed lol. b:pleased

jaon · June 2011

thumbs wrote: »

1) Wizards need to build heavier in pdef than other mage classes iif they want to do RB.
2) Veno spark: 900 vs Wiz 700
3) AoE follow up to anything a wiz does is likely Hailstorm which pales in comparison to Noxious
4) Veno can pull off almost 2 great aoe skills before wiz can pull of ulti unless using Sutra.
5)1-4 is just a veno excluding pet dmg/debuffs.\
6) Psychics, and clerics come pretty damn close, and Psys tnd to cast faster.

what's better: 2x 6k hits or 1 x10k hit in the same amount of time?

1. Non-sense. Since Wizards have : 1. Earth Barrier which raises for 30mins! either for 120% Sage or 150% Demon PH Def
vs Clerics 20secs absorbing plume which costs mana as well
or 150% Veno's Sage and 120% Demon in fox form which makes Venos UNABLE to use the "awesome" 2 aoes mentioned by author.Fox form Malefic Crush Has relatevely very long cooldown to count it as usefull.
2. Ehm those 900% sparked Veno damage is NOT even close to 700% of Wizard here is why : My ill-geared lvl 80 Wizard which have 60Mag less than my 99 Veno does with NON-sparked Pyro more in 1000-2000 damage than Veno with Venomous Scarab. As well worth to mention that Veno has in general 1/2 damage of Cleric/Wizard/Psy and probably Mystic of same lvl.
3. Ehm If you going to compare Aoe skills at least compare SAME tier. It's obvious that skill of 2 tiers higher will have more damage duh.
4. Is that so? *cough cough. Care elaborate that "interesting" statement?
5. Aren't we forgeting something? WHAT MAIN PURPOSE OF WIZARD CLASS?. Not to mention Wizards can also debuff and trust me you won't like their debuff :P
6.Psy and Cleric NEVER were or would be close. For more explanation either read about PSy/Cleric or make those chars and play them fully through the game to see difference. And by play i mean actually playing them both and not just powerlevel to 100 in 1-2 days :P

regarding to your last question assuming A.was Veno and B.was Wizard-- situation like that not exists. read point 2 :P
b:bye

Harrydresden - Raging Tide · June 2011

my wiz veno n cleric all use g15 nirv +10 so i can compare the dmg of aoe

noxious and razor feathers are 200% wep dmg aoe (so with a good wep it is noticable) as sage noxious gas actually does hit quite hard. razor not so much cause u dont benifit from the metal mastery bonus (qq to sad plume shots)

my main is a wiz and i hav done so many tw and i drop 2spark aoe

when i tw on my veno n cleric i tend to play like a wiz, ie nuking and trust me, the cooldowns, the lower dmg and range make them far less effective to play as one would play a wizard

a veno 3x sage spark IS pro, but errr how often does one spark in a pvp situation....

jus for thought:
nova is 300% wep dmg + something small + base
tempest is 400% + 14k +base
bids / MS 500% + 14k for bids 11k for ms?
BT is 400% +12kish and 2x base dmg <--OP if u hav a good wep as having 15k+ mattack x2.....

ohh yea sins > wiz in 1v1 in like EVERY situation XD only hope really in groups with expel n a pro cleric who actually purifies the seal off n u retain the phys immune

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · June 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

1) wizards build chi faster than any other magic class
2) wizards have the longest range of any magic class
3) wizard ultis have the best effects
4) wizards have the largest number of ultis (don't need to worry about cooldowns)
5) psychic aoes have a much smaller aoe radius than wizards (lol we hit twice the area per aoe that they do)
6) parasitic nova "pales in comparison" to any of the wizard ultis
7) clerics have one ulti (cooldown again) + less range + less damage + lame effect + other uses for chi than dropping ultis (aka can't drop them as often)

To answer your question, that one 10k hit is much better.. better chance at bypassing a charm (or one shotting) an opponent. I thought even carebears had heard of charms and why DPH is important in pvp.

2)true - but the difference between 30m and 28.5m doesnt make a huge difference except in some TW situations and archers got even higher range
3) well side effects of wiz ultis are nice but still sage /demon effects could occur 100% not only 50% chance and while side effects on ultis are nice those on normal skills suck compared to other magical classes especially psy soulforce skills
4) you could also say most of our aoes consume 2 sparks while other classes have more 1spark aoes with lower CD so pro?
5) their range on some of the skills has been updated from 6-->8m still not 12m like wiz but still another fail update d
6) true

all the DPH is useless if you get stunned sealed 1 shotted sleeped.... before you can get the awesome aoe off and psy >= wiz in terms of DPH

Ruxal - Harshlands · June 2011

The wizard forum still running? Good going guys, keep hope alive.

tweakz · June 2011

jaon wrote: »

1. Non-sense. Since Wizards have : 1. Earth Barrier which raises for 30mins! either for 120% Sage or 150% Demon PH Def
vs Clerics 20secs absorbing plume which costs mana as well
or 150% Veno's Sage and 120% Demon in fox form which makes Venos UNABLE to use the "awesome" 2 aoes mentioned by author.Fox form Malefic Crush Has relatevely very long cooldown to count it as usefull.

You missed one very important point: Do those other mage classes tank much in RB? -lol

2. Ehm those 900% sparked Veno damage is NOT even close to 700% of Wizard here is why : My ill-geared lvl 80 Wizard which have 60Mag less than my 99 Veno does with NON-sparked Pyro more in 1000-2000 damage than Veno with Venomous Scarab. As well worth to mention that Veno has in general 1/2 damage of Cleric/Wizard/Psy and probably Mystic of same lvl.

Then you haven't refined or imbued your weapon very well. At lower levels the difference will seem significant.

3. Ehm If you going to compare Aoe skills at least compare SAME tier. It's obvious that skill of 2 tiers higher will have more damage duh.

2 probable Aoe skills vs 2 aoe skills. -pretty simple

5. Aren't we forgeting something? WHAT MAIN PURPOSE OF WIZARD CLASS?. Not to mention Wizards can also debuff and trust me you won't like their debuff :P

Sage Summer Sprint, or L3 eruption. =P

Galox - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Madame, it seems that you are on of those Wizzies that place Channeling over Survivability. It. Is. Wrong. At least, for PvP.

There are way too many Wizzies/Clerics/ect ect ect always placing Channeling over Survivability and trying to be competent in PvP. Yes, Sins are OP and will always get the upper hand in almost any situation. But having close to 0 PDef doesn't help at all.

Anyways, one of the best counters to Sins is Expel (Not on you, on them) BUT Sins who set up the filters right are just immune to it (Skill just totally fails, don't even get cast on yourself), but if it does land it can be awesome. Fortify on your genie can help a lot too. Tbh I can't explain much more, except for you need to go out and find what works for you.a

Adroit - Lost City · June 2011

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

2)true - but the difference between 30m and 28.5m doesnt make a huge difference except in some TW situations and archers got even higher range
3) well side effects of wiz ultis are nice but still sage /demon effects could occur 100% not only 50% chance and while side effects on ultis are nice those on normal skills suck compared to other magical classes especially psy soulforce skills
4) you could also say most of our aoes consume 2 sparks while other classes have more 1spark aoes with lower CD so pro?
5) their range on some of the skills has been updated from 6-->8m still not 12m like wiz but still another fail update d
6) true

all the DPH is useless if you get stunned sealed 1 shotted sleeped.... before you can get the awesome aoe off and psy >= wiz in terms of DPH

What are you even trying to say? DPH > DPS in pvp/TW. If you had a target with say.. 10k hp, hitting him for 11k would be FAR better than hitting for 8k, 7k, 9k. Not only would you kill them faster with that 11k, but they wouldn't have time to react.. if someone sees their health dropping quick they can use defensive skills to last longer (or get out of the way). I really don't care about the smaller 1spark aoes that other classes have, they just don't compare. Using one of my ultis once > them using their smaller aoes twice.

As for your last statement, psys are not equal to wizzies in terms of DPH (where it matters). Single target DPH, we have both undine + genie spark which means we will hit a single target SIGNIFICANTLY harder than a psychic can. In AoE DPH, I've already gone over this.. but we hit more area per hit, at end game BT will do more damage than stone smasher, out ultis have better effects, we have more chi etc etc etc.

Wizard Vs Sin = Wizzy Always Loose

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