Before you hyper a BM and LOL5APSFISTSAXES,

Okeano - Harshlands
Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
edited June 2011 in Blademaster
for the love of god read what Alter Marrow Physical and Alter Marrow Magical do. It's like 99% of the BMs I run into in FC these days are just smashing random buttons. And they are ALWAYS, ALWAYS doing magic Marrow then phy Marrow, leaving them 0 def while we are doing magic hall. And EVERY ****ing time I tell them they have the wrong Marrow on, EVERYONE tells me it's for chi. Well NO **** it's for chi. You'd think by statistics I'd run into one that does phy Marrow then magic Marrow. *facedesk*

Someone sticky this.
Post edited by Okeano - Harshlands on

Comments

  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    BMs that know marrow can be used for more than chi?


    No way that's ever gonna happen.
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Heh, I thought that only happened on PvE servers. b:surrender There's those kinds of people everywhere it seems.
    BM PvP Guide: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1320761

    YouTube channels: youtube.com/TheDan912 and youtube.com/TheDanPWI
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Its ok they're the same bm's that didnt CC before the nerf because ti was unethical, like puppy kicking.

    Also because they fail at the class
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Starflair - Dreamweaver
    Starflair - Dreamweaver Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    This statement needs to be a staple for all fcc guides. You'd think its common sense but BMs get themselves killed for this all the time. I use marrows primarily for chi as well, but Im also aware of the mobs Im facing lol.
  • Nael - Dreamweaver
    Nael - Dreamweaver Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Newbie BMs leave marrows at lvl 1, doesn't affect them...much.
  • StudmuffinIX - Archosaur
    StudmuffinIX - Archosaur Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    oh sweet there are fail bms on other servers too :D and here i was thinking arch had gathered them all up b:chuckle
  • LadyofReal - Heavens Tear
    LadyofReal - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,993 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I ran FF, on an alt, yesterday with a BM who only had a level one Heaven's Flame. When questioned about it, he gave the lovely response of: I'm a fist BM, HF isn't my primary concern. So yes, needless to say, that 90+ failure was promptly removed from my squad.

    In regards to the misuse of marrows, I have seen so many BMs run around with the wrong marrow on, and then cry because they died. I have seen it in TW and PvE scenarios. But, since my BM is semi-retired and my main is now an archer, I am always given the line of "you're an archer, don't tell me how to play."

    Personally, when I am actually using my BM for something, I almost never need a marrow in the first place. I've got enough HP and defenses that I can solo just about everything without having to worry. Granted things such as WBs, RB, and Warsong are a bit out of my reach; but even then, I still don't need the marrows to survive. They've become more of a nuisance for my gameplay than anything.

    And just for random LAWLs, my personal favorite response given to me by someone in a Nirvana squad:

    "I've been playing for four months, I know what I'm doing so ****."


    /facedesk
    Not motivated enough to make another PWI siggy
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    As ladyofreal said, I too rarely use my marrows for anything but chi gain.

    I have been told, and i do believe that using marrows PERIOD in tw's is just plain dumb, especially when its an archer after the bm.

    Archer: oh look... that bm just altar marrow magical, bam barrage or arrows/any number of other archer skills that hits physical.

    Archer scenario number 2: Oh look... bm just used his altar marrow physical, time for some lightning strike/thunder shock/thunderous blast.

    Both in tw are pretty much one shot bm is dead for a lot of rank 9 archers.

    As for the fc magic hall pull, its also not all that... smart to even use altar magical marrow there either. There is physical based mobs in that hall too, however they are far less... but still it just seems so pointless to even use the skills, especially when it 'tries' to balance out the skills by lowering the opposite skill by the exact same percentage.

    In pretty much every single instance it is like that, it's almost counter intuitive to use it to pull/survive anywhere including tw... it basically just makes you that much of an easier of a one shot/target for the classes that you aren't 'trying' to protect against. Which just seems so asinine.

    The skills are nice in theory, but really they are pretty useless when you think about the higher chance it gives to the people/mobs you aren't trying to protect against... to one shot kill you, or even 3-4 hit you.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I have been told, and i do believe that using marrows PERIOD in tw's is just plain dumb, especially when its an archer after the bm.

    Archer: oh look... that bm just altar marrow magical, bam barrage or arrows/any number of other archer skills that hits physical.

    Archer scenario number 2: Oh look... bm just used his altar marrow physical, time for some lightning strike/thunder shock/thunderous blast.

    Both in tw are pretty much one shot bm is dead for a lot of rank 9 archers.

    Umm in TW the right thing to do is having Alter Marrow Magical on at all time. For one, Archer is one class, while you have many more magic class that will also target you. Archers don't waste 2 sparks to BoA on you just because you have magic Marrow on. If you got a R9 +12 Archer trying to kill you, you are dead either way. If he can kill you through magic marrow that fast, he can probably one shot you with lighting if you don't have any Marrow on. With normal Archers, they don't have the time to sit there and DPS you with phy attack, it's just not an effective use of their time. On the other hand, having magic marrow on actually means R+12 Wiz can't just one shot you with Gush and would have to actually crit or drop an ult on you.
  • StudmuffinIX - Archosaur
    StudmuffinIX - Archosaur Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Umm in TW the right thing to do is having Alter Marrow Magical on at all time. For one, Archer is one class, while you have many more magic class that will also target you. Archers don't waste 2 sparks to BoA on you just because you have magic Marrow on. If you got a R9 +12 Archer trying to kill you, you are dead either way. If he can kill you through magic marrow that fast, he can probably one shot you with lighting if you don't have any Marrow on. With normal Archers, they don't have the time to sit there and DPS you with phy attack, it's just not an effective use of their time. On the other hand, having magic marrow on actually means R+12 Wiz can't just one shot you with Gush and would have to actually crit or drop an ult on you.

    +1 -.- kinda sad that the sin knows how to play the class better than a level 101 blademaster GG
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    +1 -.- kinda sad that the sin knows how to play the class better than a level 101 blademaster GG

    Well I have a 101 BM too b:chuckle.
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Well in my defense it is what I was TOLD... and meh I don't pvp much at all...

    I still refuse to use marrows, as I said earlier it still makes you that much of an easier target for those who you aren't trying to protect against.

    There are other skills a archer could use to 1 shot you with altar marrow magical on. Barrage of arrows was just an example. I will give you all that it was indeed a bad example, but it was just an example nonetheless.

    There are far too many 5 aps/highly refined players in pretty much every single faction, not to mention as you said rank 9 +12 wizards that can just as easily one shot you with altar physical on. (granted I don't use altar marrow physical either... ANYWHERE.)

    As for pve... well I have been told that I am one of the better bms to play the class... and guess what? I don't use marrows anywhere.

    You can't base one person's skill level based on an opinion of theirs.. whether you agree with their opinion or not, and it certainly doesn't make my opinion wrong.

    The point is that even with marrows on, you can still get alcapwned by others as a bm, most other classes have surprise, and a lot more power on their side, making it a lot easier to pwn your *** whether you have marrows on or not. One way or another another class is a lot more likely to just kill you in a matter of a few seconds with either marrow on. If you have altar magical on, an archer could kill you, and if you have physical marrow on... well then you really are going to be a one shot kill for 90% (making this percentage off of the top of my hand) of the classes out there.


    Even you 'pros' don't know it all.

    (these edits are meant more for stud, and not you okeano... hell this whole post was more meant for stud.)

    Edit: In short don't question my intelligence, or my ability to play this class, just because you disagree with me not using marrows/feel that you should use altar marrow magical 'at all times in tw.' Especially when you have never played with me.. pve, or pvp.

    EDIT 2: Contrary to what you seem to think, I do know how to play my class at least in pve, and I have been playing for quite some time, and bm was, and has always been my preferred class to play, no matter how discouraged I get with it at times.

    .....

    Okeano, I do understand, that you do believe that bms should use marrow magical at all times in tw, and I do respect that, I am certainly not trying to change how bms use these skills, or where they use it, but I still think it would be asinine for most bms to use either marrow... unless they really want to get demon/sage versions of the skill, to lessen the side effect of the 'bad side' of the skill.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Well in my defense it is what I was TOLD... and meh I don't pvp much at all...

    Okeano, I do understand, that you do believe that bms should use marrow magical at all times in tw, and I do respect that, I am certainly not trying to change how bms use these skills, or where they use it, but I still think it would be asinine for most bms to use either marrow... unless they really want to get demon/sage versions of the skill, to lessen the side effect of the 'bad side' of the skill.

    If you are only told about it, you might want to try it out yourself. If you are in an active TW faction, try half of the TW without any Marrow and another half with magic Marrow. I mentioned that statistically, you will get hit by magic attacks much more than physical in a TW. Not using magic Marrow in a TW is like not using it against a Wiz 1v1 because you are afraid of their BT. But like I said, don't take mine or others word for it, try it out yourself.
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    If you are only told about it, you might want to try it out yourself. If you are in an active TW faction, try half of the TW without any Marrow and another half with magic Marrow. I mentioned that statistically, you will get hit by magic attacks much more than physical in a TW. Not using magic Marrow in a TW is like not using it against a Wiz 1v1 because you are afraid of their BT. But like I said, don't take mine or others word for it, try it out yourself.
    ^^ nice advice.... I really should start using the magical marrow for tws, and other pvp fights, because as you said, wizards do... do a hell of a lot more damage then meleers; however, like I been trying to point out... I for one will do so with caution due to all the 5.0 sins/bms, and even barbs/archers running around. At least in mass pvp anyways, 1 vs 1 its easier to marrow a arcane user, or melee fighter.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    If you are demon, then you should really get demon Marrow. With Cleric buffs and demon Marrow, I have 11k off both resistance. Since resistance in the game gives a demishing return, using demon Marrow actually means I'm giving up a small amount of phy def for a large amount off magic def. I have 80% phy reduction and 58% magic reduction w/o any Marrow. With demon Marrow I have 73% reduction from both attacks. As you can see, I'm giving up only 7% reduction for phy attacks to gain 15% more reduction for magic.

    Aslo, if I do demon Bell with Marrow before I run into stun in TW, my phy reduction stays at 80% for 15 seconds ;).
  • Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver
    Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Slivaf don't forget about evasion, yeah it's not often but archers will sometimes miss you in TW. Magic never misses.
  • Michael - Harshlands
    Michael - Harshlands Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    actually a unique feature of blade tempest is while half the damage is physical its physical SPELL damage which means that True Emptiness will absorb both the physical and magical portions of the attack so magical marrow will still keep you fairly safe even during blade tempest as long as you save 1 genie energy to TE when they channel it.

    About marrows in TW, after a few TW's against a certain guild you should be able to determine what the majority of attacks aimed at you will be and then either magical marrow (majority magical attacks) or dont marrow unless you see mages channelling ultimates (majority physical attacks) most guilds will fall into category A but its always possible your fighting a category B guild (usually 3rd tier TW guilds primarily sins mostly not a threat to big guilds but they can slow you down in TW with enough venos/purge bows to remove bramble) in which case dont marrow.


    Most of the guilds we fight require marrows, even though the TWs are short im primarily hit by EPs, venos and mages as the physical classes die too fast in big TWs to be a significant threat
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    actually a unique feature of blade tempest is while half the damage is physical its physical SPELL damage which means that True Emptiness will absorb both the physical and magical portions of the attack so magical marrow will still keep you fairly safe even during blade tempest as long as you save 1 genie energy to TE when they channel it.
    About marrows in TW, after a few TW's against a certain guild you should be able to determine what the majority of attacks aimed at you will be and then either magical marrow (majority magical attacks) or dont marrow unless you see mages channelling ultimates (majority physical attacks) most guilds will fall into category A but its always possible your fighting a category B guild (usually 3rd tier TW guilds primarily sins mostly not a threat to big guilds but they can slow you down in TW with enough venos/purge bows to remove bramble) in which case dont marrow.


    Most of the guilds we fight require marrows, even though the TWs are short im primarily hit by EPs, venos and mages as the physical classes die too fast in big TWs to be a significant threat

    No the phys bypasses.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Michael - Harshlands
    Michael - Harshlands Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hmm then my TE is glitched, as when Violator (+10 rank9 mage) hit me with blade tempest while I was TE'ed and magic marrowed I took 900 points of damage during a 1v1(without TE I get hit for around 9k). We were both actually quite surprised by the lack of damage and tested it quite a few times, so either my 115 ST genie bypasses the laws of nature or more likely blade tempest does get absorbed by TE but most people have lower ST's on their genies (reducing the shield strength) or get crit (which would hit for about 50% of the normal damage) and thus believe the physical damage bypasses the TE shield. (I will admit this was 2 patches ago so if you have tested it since then I will have to check it out and see if it still works the same way with my genie)
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hmm then my TE is glitched, as when Violator (+10 rank9 mage) hit me with blade tempest while I was TE'ed and magic marrowed I took 900 points of damage during a 1v1(without TE I get hit for around 9k). We were both actually quite surprised by the lack of damage and tested it quite a few times, so either my 115 ST genie bypasses the laws of nature or more likely blade tempest does get absorbed by TE but most people have lower ST's on their genies (reducing the shield strength) or get crit (which would hit for about 50% of the normal damage) and thus believe the physical damage bypasses the TE shield. (I will admit this was 2 patches ago so if you have tested it since then I will have to check it out and see if it still works the same way with my genie)

    Mines always been bypassed by BT, then again i quit a few months ago.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • ArmaniEx - Harshlands
    ArmaniEx - Harshlands Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Never knew TE was that useful, hmm interesting. Demon marrows are the ****..I can marrow have around 12k mdef with no cleric buffs and still leave my pdef at 8k which is more than most decent sins have lol that also gives me time to leap away if a sin pops up on me.


    Only thing I find so frustrating is how demon roar says "will never fail" but when you use it on the most broken class in the game their bs buff tidal protection nullifies it. WTBBB DEMON ROAR WORKING 100% like it says on the description.
  • Sunked - Lost City
    Sunked - Lost City Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    You r talking about demon marrows rite? as sage marrows r kinda suicidal
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    You r talking about demon marrows rite? as sage marrows r kinda suicidal

    Sage bell balances sage magic Marrow somewhat. Sage or Demon, magic Marrow should be on during TW at all times. In FC well... unless you are at the hall with pure phy mobs, having sage magic Marrow on and getting slaps by magic mobs as you get close is still going to hurt much less than taking them on without any Marrow.
  • Omea - Lost City
    Omea - Lost City Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hmm then my TE is glitched, as when Violator (+10 rank9 mage) hit me with blade tempest while I was TE'ed and magic marrowed I took 900 points of damage during a 1v1(without TE I get hit for around 9k). We were both actually quite surprised by the lack of damage and tested it quite a few times, so either my 115 ST genie bypasses the laws of nature or more likely blade tempest does get absorbed by TE but most people have lower ST's on their genies (reducing the shield strength) or get crit (which would hit for about 50% of the normal damage) and thus believe the physical damage bypasses the TE shield. (I will admit this was 2 patches ago so if you have tested it since then I will have to check it out and see if it still works the same way with my genie)

    It's the same with BT and Psychic Will, Will blocks the physical damage from the attack, and the magic part deals somewhere around 1/10 of un-Willed damage.
    How come, if someone asks a question in a forum, at least 13/20 posts answers the question in the same exact way, 5/20 word the exact same answer differently and 2/20 say something completely unrelated to both life and death?
  • Antraze - Raging Tide
    Antraze - Raging Tide Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    sword/pole BM with lv7 HF b:surrender

    gonna get it to ten when I get the moonies
    I use Marrows for chi and FC, judging what would get me more i use that particular marrow
    already a squishy **** BM, dun need to be even more squishy xD
    Antraze - Retired workhorse of a Blademaster.

    Go check out my YouTube channel
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  • GG_BIG_Y - Sanctuary
    GG_BIG_Y - Sanctuary Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    well...i would be lying if i said that I hate bms running around with the wrong marrow b:chuckle

    When I play my wizzy for TW, There is nothing that warms my heart more than when i c noob bms running around in tw with physical marrow on b:laugh got to love those instant 1 shots b:dirty
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I sometimes marrow for bosses that move around a lot to help my wife out since she duo's cleric and BM for Nirvana. Example is the Ashura Tyrant i.e. "slasher" boss, who hurts even with 10.2K HP and is entirely physical-based damage. In other cases, besides luring foxes (or being excessively weak to magic during the Darkwing Corpse boss when he does his AOE under 1m HP), it makes little sense to magic marrow throughout Nirvana (every boss hits physical mostly and mag marrowing means weakening on norm atks), and doing phys marrow would get your *** kicked on most since a good chunk of them cast magic at regular intervals.

    Truthfully in Nirvana there's very few reasons to use marrow at all. The balance of normal phys and mag def seems to work itself out.

    For FF I used magic marrow quite often for bishops, Shocktrooper, or magic mob pulls where I thought I was the best AOE DD and would get aggro on them. The only boss I can think of where using phys marrow might be a good idea is either Holeen, Oceania, or Messenger.
  • GaiaCleaver - Heavens Tear
    GaiaCleaver - Heavens Tear Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    If you are demon, then you should really get demon Marrow. With Cleric buffs and demon Marrow, I have 11k off both resistance. Since resistance in the game gives a demishing return, using demon Marrow actually means I'm giving up a small amount of phy def for a large amount off magic def. I have 80% phy reduction and 58% magic reduction w/o any Marrow. With demon Marrow I have 73% reduction from both attacks. As you can see, I'm giving up only 7% reduction for phy attacks to gain 15% more reduction for magic.

    Aslo, if I do demon Bell with Marrow before I run into stun in TW, my phy reduction stays at 80% for 15 seconds ;).

    Late reply but... no, please! You should not compare the reductions (80% and 58% with 73% and 73%) but the actual damage received (20% and 42% with 27% and 27%). So what you get is:

    27/20=1.35 -> you receive 35% more damage from physical attacks
    27/42=0.643 -> you receive 35.7% less damage from magical attacks
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Late reply but... no, please! You should not compare the reductions (80% and 58% with 73% and 73%) but the actual damage received (20% and 42% with 27% and 27%). So what you get is:

    27/20=1.35 -> you receive 35% more damage from physical attacks
    27/42=0.643 -> you receive 35.7% less damage from magical attacks

    You make a good point, so I did a in game test. I took weapon off my Cleric and hit my BM with Cyclone and Plume. The result was 325, 130 without Marrow and 214 and 174 with demon Marrow. So % wise, Marrow cause me to take 34% less magic damage and 33.8% more physical damage.

    So yeah you are right about it being equal % wise. But there are 2 points I would like to make. Because these are not the %'s of the same number, equal % trade off doesn't mean direct equal trade off. The Marrow reduced 111 damage from magic while only increased the physical damage by 44. If we assume you are getting hit from magic and physical equally, because magic hits are initially harder, 34% of magical damage, in terms of direct points taken out of your hp, saved is more than 34% physical damage gained. This brings to my second point that you will get hit much more often in TW by magic than physical attacks.

    PvE wise, if there are bosses with big magical hits between melee hits, I will often use magic Marrow. The boss is doing 700-800 with melee hits and 5000-6000 with its magic in between. I'll take the 34% more off 700-800 over time (because IH and Bloodpaint heal can easily cover), to reduce the massive spike hits by 34%, which often save me a charm tick, or one shot by hard bosses in 3-3. The healing methods in this game, IH or Bloodpaint, are healed over time. So during the melee hits of the bosses you are getting overhealed, and taking a bit more DPS, or damage from weak hits at small interval, is barely noticeable. No amount of stacked IH can save your charm from ticking or you from one shot if you get hit spiked for either 50+% of your HP or over your HP.
  • GaiaCleaver - Heavens Tear
    GaiaCleaver - Heavens Tear Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    You make a good point, so I did a in game test. I took weapon off my Cleric and hit my BM with Cyclone and Plume. The result was 325, 130 without Marrow and 214 and 174 with demon Marrow. So % wise, Marrow cause me to take 34% less magic damage and 33.8% more physical damage.

    So yeah you are right about it being equal % wise. But there are 2 points I would like to make. Because these are not the %'s of the same number, equal % trade off doesn't mean direct equal trade off. The Marrow reduced 111 damage from magic while only increased the physical damage by 44. If we assume you are getting hit from magic and physical equally, because magic hits are initially harder, 34% of magical damage, in terms of direct points taken out of your hp, saved is more than 34% physical damage gained. This brings to my second point that you will get hit much more often in TW by magic than physical attacks.

    PvE wise, if there are bosses with big magical hits between melee hits, I will often use magic Marrow. The boss is doing 700-800 with melee hits and 5000-6000 with its magic in between. I'll take the 34% more off 700-800 over time (because IH and Bloodpaint heal can easily cover), to reduce the massive spike hits by 34%, which often save me a charm tick, or one shot by hard bosses in 3-3. The healing methods in this game, IH or Bloodpaint, are healed over time. So during the melee hits of the bosses you are getting overhealed, and taking a bit more DPS, or damage from weak hits at small interval, is barely noticeable. No amount of stacked IH can save your charm from ticking or you from one shot if you get hit spiked for either 50+% of your HP or over your HP.

    Just to make it clear, at no point did I say that marrows are not useful , and demon magic marrow was one of the first skills I got for my bm. I actually personally consider it a must have, and a bm who uses marrows correctly will have significantly more survivability than bms who do not. Demon physical marrow is nice too when you deal with mobs/bosses who deal physical damage only.

    I just wanted to make sure you compare the right numbers :).