Exploit vs. Glitch
PhantomThief - Archosaur
Posts: 232 Arc User
Since the last patch, people have been complaining about the removal of channel cancelling. After reading through a multitude of threads talking about it, I have come to the conclusion that players are confused by the difference between an exploit and a glitch. So...
A glitch is a temporary malfunction in the game environment that causes an unexpected behavior in the program. In several games, the most common glitch is a terrain glitch, which usually involves getting a mob stuck on the terrain and attacking them when they are stuck trying to get to you.
An exploit is the use of a design flaw in the game to a player's advantage. Channel cancelling is an example of this; players would cancel the channeling of a skill in order to gain the buff it provided without paying the CHI costs.
And, that's the difference between the two.
A glitch is a temporary malfunction in the game environment that causes an unexpected behavior in the program. In several games, the most common glitch is a terrain glitch, which usually involves getting a mob stuck on the terrain and attacking them when they are stuck trying to get to you.
An exploit is the use of a design flaw in the game to a player's advantage. Channel cancelling is an example of this; players would cancel the channeling of a skill in order to gain the buff it provided without paying the CHI costs.
And, that's the difference between the two.
A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.
Post edited by PhantomThief - Archosaur on
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Comments
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Cancel casting still took mp0
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Regardless of what word you want to use, the fact of the matter remains: that is not how the skills were meant to be used, and the PW people decided people should be using them properly. I can see how it would hurt BMs in PvP no doubt, and think a ninja change like this is a bit stupid, but at the same time I have no problem with the change because skills that take two sparks *should* take two sparks to use, and there shouldn't be a way around it for any class.
It will be a lot more challenging for those that relied on this method of gameplay. But this was how these classes were meant to be played. (Nobody said the game was balanced.)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Annalyse (veno) - Melosa (cleric) - Glynneth (archer) - Pickerel (sin)
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Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »skills that take two sparks *should* take two sparks to use, and there shouldn't be a way around it for any class.
It will be a lot more challenging for those that relied on this method of gameplay. But this was how these classes were meant to be played. (Nobody said the game was balanced.)
the thing it it *shouldn't* take two sparks, it's kinda ridiculous, if it was that good it would be worth the 2 sparks but it's not. Barbs/Archers get a ele attack bonus, granted it's not as much a 135% as a demon DBB was but it's still a bonus that bm's do not have anymore, and for them it never cost 2 sparks.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Cancel casting still took mp
Fixed.Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »Regardless of what word you want to use, the fact of the matter remains: that is not how the skills were meant to be used, and the PW people decided people should be using them properly. I can see how it would hurt BMs in PvP no doubt, and think a ninja change like this is a bit stupid, but at the same time I have no problem with the change because skills that take two sparks *should* take two sparks to use, and there shouldn't be a way around it for any class.
It will be a lot more challenging for those that relied on this method of gameplay. But this was how these classes were meant to be played. (Nobody said the game was balanced.)
You're right, it doesn't really matter what you call it. However, I've seen people arguing over what exactly it is called, which is why I made this thread. If people stop fighting over what to call it, maybe people will actually listen to what is being said.
And, for the record, I've never used the Power Dash glitch, but it sounds like it made Assassins more OP than we are already. BMs got screwed by the patch and hopefully they will get some re-balancing in the future.A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
I disagree. First off you can exploit glitches and you can exploit design flaws, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
To say cancel cast is a design flaw and not a glitch means you know for sure that developers intended canceling via weapon switching to behave like that. I don't think you know enough about developer intent to make that judgement. The fact that they took uncharacteristic action to fix it supports that it was never their intention.
A design flaw would probably be something like 5.0 aps. When they were first developing the game they deliberately programmed it to behave like that but they probably didn't foresee the effect on gameplay that mechanic would have when they later added more and more -interval gear.Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »the thing it it *shouldn't* take two sparks, it's kinda ridiculous, if it was that good it would be worth the 2 sparks but it's not. Barbs/Archers get a ele attack bonus, granted it's not as much a 135% as a demon DBB was but it's still a bonus that bm's do not have anymore, and for them it never cost 2 sparks.
Stormrage Eagleon costs 2 sparks as well. Do you want to trade DBB for that?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »the thing it it *shouldn't* take two sparks, it's kinda ridiculous, if it was that good it would be worth the 2 sparks but it's not.
oh hello there frost scarab! say, why do you cost a spark for some measly slowing, again? it's as if you weren't worth it. EXACTLY as if... because you aren't.
what's that, shadow escape? you say you GIVE a spark instead of taking one? why, that's... that's unbalanced!
seriously, now --- every class has skills that aren't worth it, and this game hasn't been anywhere near to balanced in years. quit acting surprised when that gets worse. the sky is blue, the sun rises in the east, PWI is unbalanced and not getting any better.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »I disagree. First off you can exploit glitches and you can exploit design flaws, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
To say cancel cast is a design flaw and not a glitch means you know for sure that developers intended canceling via weapon switching to behave like that. I don't think you know enough about developer intent to make that judgement. The fact that they took uncharacteristic action to fix it supports that it was never their intention.
A design flaw would probably be something like 5.0 aps. When they were first developing the game they deliberately programmed it to behave like that but they probably didn't foresee the effect on gameplay that mechanic would have when they later added more and more -interval gear.
I'm pretty sure it was a design flaw, of course they deliberately designed it like that other wise they would've made the buff accessible only at the and of the casting. It was exploited, it obviously wasn't a "glitch", i can say that with enough confidence.0 -
I think its a design flaw that an arrow can hit a sideways moving target. fix plox! fix!0
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LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »oh hello there frost scarab! say, why do you cost a spark for some measly slowing, again? it's as if you weren't worth it. EXACTLY as if... because you aren't.
what's that, shadow escape? you say you GIVE a spark instead of taking one? why, that's... that's unbalanced!
seriously, now --- every class has skills that aren't worth it, and this game hasn't been anywhere near to balanced in years. quit acting surprised when that gets worse. the sky is blue, the sun rises in the east, PWI is unbalanced and not getting any better.
Again, you're talking out of your ***. DBB before the 2spark cost was amazing and contributed a **** load towards bms pking. If frost scarab raised your weapons attack by 60%+ it would be worth it but were talking about completely different skills here. The fact that shadow escape gives sins a spark is just a joke.
But anyway the moral of the story is if anybody knows what a useless skill is is a bm. We have tons of them so you can't tell us about useless skills. This particular skill we're talking was vital.
No offence but before you post again Lenie please try to understand the situation first and not get your information off people on the forums. Most of the people talking have actually experienced this where as you haven't.0 -
the best evidence we have that it was not the developers intent to be able to CC, is that they removed it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »the best evidence we have that it was not the developers intent to be able to CC, is that they removed it.
i don't know which side you're trying to back up but you're basically proving it wasn't a glitch and was an exploit. We can all agree it wasn't their intention but saying it was a glitch is far from the truth, just some ill thought out/made skills, which i think everybody in pwi can relate to someway.0 -
Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »I'm pretty sure it was a design flaw, of course they deliberately designed it like that other wise they would've made the buff accessible only at the and of the casting. It was exploited, it obviously wasn't a "glitch", i can say that with enough confidence.
Someone cancels a skill and yet still acquires a bonus from that skill, and you say this is intentionally designed?0 -
Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »i don't know which side you're trying to back up but you're basically proving it wasn't a glitch and was an exploit. We can all agree it wasn't their intention but saying it was a glitch is far from the truth, just some ill thought out/made skills, which i think everybody in pwi can relate to someway.
a glitch is an unintended design flaw, an exploit is using that flaw to your advantage. Exploits are not designed to be functional, because exploits are not part of the design, they flow from the flaw.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Every old class has stupid useless skills...and DBB is really too expensive to use considering the class' chi dependency.
They should revisit every skill that's useless and do something about them.
If you look at sins for example, almost every skill is useful. Really the only attack without any decent addon is Twin Strike...even Slipstream does decent damage.
For other classes...all the skills that doesn't Knockback in PvP really should do something else, like at least interrupt chan. All the crappy DoTs and useless spark consuming skills need a changeElena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
It didn't even work if you use the action traditionally associated with canceling a skill: pressing ESC. Instead you had to switch weapons.
If it was a design flaw it would have effected all methods of canceling skills instead of just the obscure methods.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Correct, that's what i'm saying. It was obviously intentionally designed like that, they new what they were doing and had to at least understand that they would obtain the buff before the chance to cancle it but they never thought people would exploit it by cc.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Someone cancels a skill and yet still acquires a bonus from that skill, and you say this is intentionally designed?
explain to be how it wasn't part of the design, they made it that way and kept it like that for over 3 years. In some sense i wouldn't been a little happier if they acknowledged this back when it was found and used as appose to changing it now.SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »a glitch is an unintended design flaw, an exploit is using that flaw to your advantage. Exploits are not designed to be functional, because exploits are not part of the design, they flow from the flaw.
This i can agree with, i'm just worried they'll mess it up even furtherQuilue - Sanctuary wrote: »Every old class has stupid useless skills...and DBB is really too expensive to use considering the class' chi dependency.
They should revisit every skill that's useless and do something about them.0 -
Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »explain to be how it wasn't part of the design, they made it that way and kept it like that for over 3 years.
you quoted the explanation[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »you quoted the explanation
i'm more so leaning towards an explanation to the fact of it taking 3 years to fix, also the fact that not many people (as far as i'm aware) raised it up as being a big fault to fix and it didn't unbalance the game, it actually gave it more balance. Why not fix something everybody has been complaining about for a while.0 -
Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »explain to be how it wasn't part of the design, they made it that way and kept it like that for over 3 years.
You are confusing design with implementation. Design is like the blue prints to a building.
Nothing in the blue prints called for this bug but some developer didn't fully hammer in a nail. That makes it a programming error which has now been corrected.
The game has had the same bugs for years.Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »i'm more so leaning towards an explanation to the fact of it taking 3 years to fix.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I need to stick to the archer forums.0
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And so, one dude discovers something funny and unusual but also easily repeatable (same result each time, no penalties) in game, which can make him save time or bring profit in some way.
He shares it to his buddies, and the fault in design is soon known by most of the community and becomes a way of gaming (especially if it's never known by the managers and/or not fixed properly), even if it's entirely illegal.
And that is how it goes.I think its a design flaw that an arrow can hit a sideways moving target. fix plox! fix!
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Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »DBB before the 2spark cost
there never WAS any time "before" DBB cost two sparks. "costs two sparks" has been part of that skill all along. there was a time (a much too long time, but so it goes) when you could exploit a flaw to evade its two-spark cost; that flaw is now fixed.
some bugs can be exploited. exploitable bugs sometimes --- ideally quickly and always, except that this game's run by PWE --- get fixed. after an exploit gets fixed, you get to play as the game was designed to be played, whether for better or for worse.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »You are confusing design with implementation. Design is like the blue prints to a building.
Nothing in the blue prints called for this bug but some developer didn't fully hammer in a nail. That makes it a programming error which has now been corrected.
The game has had the same bugs for years.
I agree with the blueprints but as they were making the skills they must've built it that way
Exactly, why not fix things people have been complaining more about (not that I've seen anybody complain about cc needing to be fixed)0 -
LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »there never WAS any time "before" DBB cost two sparks. "costs two sparks" has been part of that skill all along. there was a time (a much too long time, but so it goes) when you could exploit a flaw to evade its two-spark cost; that flaw is now fixed.
some bugs can be exploited. exploitable bugs sometimes --- ideally quickly and always, except that this game's run by PWE --- get fixed. after an exploit gets fixed, you get to play as the game was designed to be played, whether for better or for worse.
When i say used to not cost 2 sparks i'm of course talking about cc, but why are you pointing this out and ignoring what i'm pointing towards, for the live of me I've no idea why you're here talking about things you don't know![:\](https://forum.arcgames.com/pwi/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
I know i keep saying that but damn it's true!
If you were a bm, or even understood what a bm can do in pvp you could have sympathy, you're just listening to those who do and still disagree which is very understandable because i also want all the games "glitches/exploits" to be dealt with but it's very doubtful. I still think most people have sympathy at least. oh well.
oh and gms need to fix this, i can't delete my post to merge it with the post i just made. I look like an idiot making b2b posts -_-'0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »I disagree. First off you can exploit glitches and you can exploit design flaws, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
To say cancel cast is a design flaw and not a glitch means you know for sure that developers intended canceling via weapon switching to behave like that. I don't think you know enough about developer intent to make that judgement. The fact that they took uncharacteristic action to fix it supports that it was never their intention.
A design flaw would probably be something like 5.0 aps. When they were first developing the game they deliberately programmed it to behave like that but they probably didn't foresee the effect on gameplay that mechanic would have when they later added more and more -interval gear.
I agree the two aren't mutually exclusive. A player can exploit a glitch. A player can exploit a design flaw, as you say.
However, the cancel casting is obviously a design flaw. They never intended for players to get the buff when they cancelled the skill. A programmer messed up the code, thus its a flaw, not a glitch.
I suppose this thread is now more pointless than when it started...A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »Exactly, why not fix things people have been complaining more about (not that I've seen anybody complain about cc needing to be fixed)
Ehh it was a pretty big problem with sins canceling powerdash from stealth. They were getting +50% crit while still being invisible. BMs should be blaming sins for ruining their fun.PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »However, the cancel casting is obviously a design flaw. They never intended for players to get the buff when they cancelled the skill. A programmer messed up the code, thus its a flaw, not a glitch.
Ehh I call programming mistakes which cause transient errors glitches. A design mistake occurs at a higher level (like the blue prints to a house). I guess it's all semantics but then that is the topic of the thread lol.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Ehh it was a pretty big problem with sins canceling powerdash from stealth. They were getting +50% crit while still being invisible. BMs should be blaming sins for ruining their fun.
Oh yeah of course that's the case for sins but i'm referring to bm's. Y sin ruin the bm
I love the short straw, fix sin, **** ON BM! yay, and you can't blame me for QQ come on.0 -
all glitches are flaws
all flaws are not glitches
if you exploit a glitch you are necessarily exploiting a flaw[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »all glitches are flaws
all flaws are not glitches
if you exploit a glitch you are necessarily exploiting a flaw
Correct
That's what we're trying to argue about. Assuming cc was a glitch you'd be correct but assuming it wasn't you'd be incorrect.0 -
Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »When i say used to not cost 2 sparks i'm of course talking about cc, but why are you pointing this out and ignoring what i'm pointing towards,
i keep pointing that out because that was exploiting a bug. what you try to point towards is... idunno what you're trying to point towards; it looks like you want the bug back so you can go on exploiting it some more, is that it?
or are you trying to say that BMs can be powerful characters in PVP so long as they're allowed to exploit bugs in the game? well yes, that shouldn't surprise anybody, that goes for every class that has exploitable bugs really. that is not an argument for not fixing bugs, nor for COMPLAINING about it when bugs get fixed.
next let's fix the veno glitching-into-foxform-with-claws bug, unless of course this same bugfix already covered that. i want to point and laugh at any venos pitiful enough to complain about that, too.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.0
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