R9 dagger and TT

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »

I started a sin for PK and the occasional TT. I'm planning to get r9 dagger and wear all possible interval for TT. My concern is with GOF add and wondering if it will let me leech back enough HP to be able to solo without using a charm.

This was the question, not if g13 or g15 are better suited.
The awnser is:

Yes you can.
You're bp is enough to compensate for the zerk.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't think a +12 zerk crit from a g15 vana can do 50k+ damage with an auto attack to a level 80 mob without any buffs/debuffs. I can see 30-40k, but not 50k+.

I seriously think you don't know how powerful r9 daggers are... In terms of PvP, my factmate in that video that you saw can crit 30k+ on average vs other players.

As Olbaze said, the damage difference between Nirvana and r9 is on a whole other level. And as it has been said before, I will repeat it. Don't forget that zerk = x2 damage, which means x2 heals. And since by r9, a sin will average around 40% crit, meaning when GoF procs, 40% of the time it will be a crit, meaning x4 damage, and x4 heals. Since the cost of the proc is set at 5% max health, the damage you deal against 150 bosses covers your hp loss when you proc. Not only that, but when combined with hp food and spark, it would be easy to solo most TT's.

Plus.. RealVonDutch just answered it, but now it turned into a discussion.

I don't think you've ever solo'd 3-3 to even start to talk in any of the viewpoint anyone has said in this discussion.

It's not 2x heal when you're taking 5% of your max hp it could be break even and you can't break even on any of your bloodpaints to do 3-3 without a charm (as the OP asked).

People can solo FC at 90 are you going to suggest they do that? I'd hope the answer to that is no not until they can do it much more efficient.

There's a lot more to solo'ing then who can guess the most damage on bosses. I know 4 sins with r9 and none of them use it to solo TTs because it's a lot more charm **** then they care to use. (G13s cost me 200k a run for charms on average... I need to drag along my cleric more QQ).

For yet another time I say again, it's not just getting 3-3 complete...no one would do 3-3 solo if it cost 3 hp charms.....it's doing it with efficiency and their are better options out there then r9 doing 3-3. He's going to die ... a lot with no charm (and he sure as hell is going to use a **** ton more charm if he means will mine tick at all with r9 rather then nrivana g15/13).

Wunderkind - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't think you've ever solo'd 3-3 to even start to talk in any of the viewpoint anyone has said in this discussion.

It's not 2x heal when you're taking 5% of your max hp it could be break even and you can't break even on any of your bloodpaints to do 3-3 without a charm (as the OP asked).

And I don't think you ever used r9 dagger b:laugh The damage even without proc is on another lvl of g13 vana. You heal a lot more per hit, even without proc. You simply factor that out, probably cause you have no idea at all and just go on the idea that the base bp is equal on both. Yeah you have 5% hp loss on proc, but you also bp way way way more.

I'd like to see what Cheze has to say on this topic. In his "herb farming guide" he uses r9 for harpy (maybe a Mickey Mouse boss compared to TT3-3 bosses for Wunderkind).

Lol why are you even bothering to reason with Wunder? He's such a fail troll that he has no other resort but to simply call Dutch a liar.
The fact that he even thinks in the first place that 5aps nirvana can even hope to compare to 3-4 aps r9 blows my mind out of the water and makes me see how hopeless it is to reason with him. Now you've showed him the proof several times and he still doesn't get it? Sorry but you guys are just trolling yourselves now b:laugh

For the lolz, I'll show you some math, Wunder.

5aps g13 nirvana build
All armor +10, 4 pieces with 4 +20 vit stones, +12 Barrier Thorn with 2 Garnet Gems, Demon Dagger Devotion and Demon Sparked.
18,572-21,519 (20,046 average) physical attack with 30 attack levels.

4aps R9 build
All I did was replace Barrier Thorn with Catastrophe Stinger and Attendence Ring*Perfect with Ring of Trauma.
20,985-24,898 (22,942) physical attack with 60 attack levels.

? Bosses have 50 defense levels so the attack level formula is different for both builds. The only way the Nirvana build could have 50 attack levels would be to fully DoT all but one piece of armor which is a 3k hp sacrifice.

Nirvana with 30 attack levels:
damage taken = { damage delivered / ( 1 + (1.2 * ({ defense level } - { attack level }) / 100 ) ) }
x= 20,046 / (1+[1.2 * (50 - 30) / 100])
20,046 / (1+[1.2 * 20 /100])
20,046/ (1+24/100)
20,046/1.24
16,166

R9 with 60 attack levels:
damage taken = { damage delivered * ( 1 + ({ attack level } - { defense level }) / 100 ) }
x=22,942 * (1 + [60 - 30] /100)
22,942 * (1 + 30 /100)
22,942 * 1.3
29,825

Factor in aps.
16,166 * 5 = 80,830 dps
29,825 * 4 = 119,300 dps

As you can clearly see, r9's dps is nearly 150% greater than Barrier Thorn, before factoring crits and GoF.
R9 is superior in that way.

Now for BP.

16,166 x 0.02 = 323 Bloodsuck
29,825 x 0.02 = 597 Bloodsuck

Factor in GoF Proc.
1,194 Bloodsuck
5% of 13,349 HP is 667
This still isn't counting crits and GoF crits...
Furthermore, GoF does not activate EVERY single hit., so he has a few hits to gain HP if GoF does for some reason exceed BP. Plus crits 1/3 of the time and godly GoF crits - which most of them will be with 36% crit rate.

Now I know I'm doing something wrong here as physical attack does not directly equate to damage dealt - the fact that Demon Spark only doubles my actual attack while it triples my physical attack proves that.
I tried looking for a physical attack to actual damage formula but I couldn't find one. If someone knows how to do it or how to use this formula attack multiple = 1 + DEX/150 + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs properly, please let me know so I can do this correctly. But either way, if you don't get the picture, quit now...

P.S. I just saw your build Wunder. Dutch, if you could post your build, I can compare you two directly.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, you're forgetting a billion things, such as:
1. Level 150 mobs come with a 0.25 multiplier to all damage you deal

That's the 50 def levels you didn't understand.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

2. Most bosses have a non-zero positive defense value, which will reduce your actual damage.

Riiight... -facepalm-
However, I didn't count any buffs in these calculations, so say buffs and HF/Mire/Amp counteract that? lol

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. GoF isn't 100% so you can't just double the BP effect.

I only counted GoF to show that BP does in fact more than compensate.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

But you're misusing it.

It's not 50 Defense Levels that bosses have. It's the 0.25 damage multiplier because they are more than 40 levels higher than you are. Read more here.

And btw, 50 Defense Levels only gives you a multiplier of 0.625 assuming zero attack levels. To get a 0.25 with zero attack levels, you'd be looking at having 250 Defense Levels.

Bleh b:cold

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not really. I'd assume that most bosses have enough pdef for at least a 50% reduction, if not more.

Any damage buff that you get won't do much, as you might've observed. And I wonder how will you have HF and Amp when soloing TT bosses? Mire yes, but it's not even close to being -100%.

Yeah I was joking b:mischievous

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well but that's only true in some idealistic world where bosses somehow don't have a 0.25 multiplier and instead have a completely-negateable 50 Defense Levels and zero physical defenses.

In truth, it's obviously not that simple. You only deal 1/4th of the damage to bosses, with Pdef maybe 1/8th and the 5% that GoF takes stays constant.

*sigh* I should have done a little more research first b:embarrass

Ezehc - Lost City wrote: »

burn 150k charm per 3-3/3-2 solo
ghost lord, beast, emperor, minister, wrist boss.
takes about 30-40 minutes.
people who think g13 is better makes me lol.

That you cheze? O.o

And is that quick switching different daggers r9/other you have? So far it seems G15 is the best option out of the 3. And you use 150k that's more then roid asked to use, he said charmless.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't really know how you can say g15 dags are the best option out of the 3, considering it's more or less the same proc, with less damage output, meaning less BP input.

I'm just saying, 5aps with g15 vana GoF/SS is never better than 4aps r9 GoF. Though of course, g15 vanas with GoF/SS is the next best option, if you're not going for r9.

You have to understand the drastic difference int he proc rate. It's a good middle ground not nearly as much of a HP eater as the r9 and also much more damage then G13. The difference of 4.0 to 5.0 is bigger then most think.

I'll say this again it also depends on the sins build. If a sin is full +10 all DoT and has 12k hp buffed, it's a very different story then my sin which has no DoT or jades just vit stones and 16.6k hp buffed.

Rank 9 will hurt me much more then it would the first example. I'd do much less damage with it and the 5% proc takes much more of my bloodpaint. Honestly the right answer is....it just depends on the sin. For hte majority I can see G15 with a 15% proc rate vs a 30% proc rate with r9 easier to deal with. R9 does have 30 atk lvls but the G15 wold have an extra hit so it does balance more then people really want to figure. It also depends on genie skills for the DPS...most just want to look at raw damage of the daggers and that's misleading.

Wunderkind - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You have to understand the drastic difference int he proc rate. It's a good middle ground not nearly as much of a HP eater as the r9 and also much more damage then G13. The difference of 4.0 to 5.0 is bigger then most think.

I'll say this again it also depends on the sins build. If a sin is full +10 all DoT and has 12k hp buffed, it's a very different story then my sin which has no DoT or jades just vit stones and 16.6k hp buffed.

Rank 9 will hurt me much more then it would the first example. I'd do much less damage with it and the 5% proc takes much more of my bloodpaint. Honestly the right answer is....it just depends on the sin. For hte majority I can see G15 with a 15% proc rate vs a 30% proc rate with r9 easier to deal with. R9 does have 30 atk lvls but the G15 wold have an extra hit so it does balance more then people really want to figure. It also depends on genie skills for the DPS...most just want to look at raw damage of the daggers and that's misleading.

GoF on a g15 is the same proc rate as GoF on a r9. They're the same unique attribute. But of course you're talking about SS instead.

And I think Olbaze said it somewhere before, the damage difference between 4aps and 5aps is somewhere around 23% extra, based on PWI math. 30 attack levels more than covers that. Not only that, but g16 refines are much higher.

Also, if you had GoF on a g15 int vana dagger, you'd proc more often with the extra attack. That isn't considered "safe" in your terms. And even with SS, the extra attack per second still increases proc chances per minute. And both procs cost a solid 5% of your health each time.


From what I'm understanding from your post, you think that God of Frenzy on a g15 dagger procs differently than the God of Frenzy on a r9 dagger. They are not different. They're the same attribute with the same proc percentage, just on different daggers.

When you want a dagger to sac strike proc, you'd want it to do the maximum damage in that hit, so you get more BP in return. R9 delivers that with the proc. G15 vana procs doesn't deliver the damage part as well as R9 can.


Even after all of us trying to explain this to you, you can't seem to get it b:cold

And another thing.. R9 also has the 5 def levels, or 5% damage reduction, with the ring, as well as another raw 105 damage from the ring. And before you say anything about a g15 user having the R9 ring, I ask, why would one get the rep and the badges/chips, just for the ring? Why stop there, when R9 dags is just around the corner?

Also, if one can afford R9/g15, why would they not get a charm?

Wunderkind - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why in the world would I talk about GoF on G15? I'm talking about Sac Strike only...if I want god of frenzy r9 daggers are cheaper. There's only a 1 /1000 odds of getting GoF (2% chance) and a -int (5% chance). I think there is one maybe 2 G15s with GoF and a -int and they simply got lucky.

I don't believe you can keep up with minister's sleep at 4.0 from my memory, you need 5.0 to be able to spark time through the sleep (tide mostly takes care of the rest). There are other advantages such as that to 5.0 vs 4.0 that don't show up in DPS calcs only involving raw damage. And before you say anything yes you can hit skills but that takes away from you DPS and other things negating your point of r9 doing more damage in the first place.

I have r9 ring...and no r9 weapon...because I +10d my gear first....which does a lot more for me then skipping it and having r9 daggers with +5 gear....that point is meaningless to this comparison.

I didn't bring up the charmless thing, that was roids question and I simply answered his scenario.

There are TWO GoF G15 daggers on Sanctuary with -int. One has +dex, the other has +accuracy, I believe, in addition to the -int and GoF. Both are +12.

So, there's more than just 2 GoF -int daggers in PWI, unless Sanctuary has a monopoly on them... Then again, we have at least two barbs with 47k HP (R9 +12), and some scary gear BM's. >_> Yeah, there's some Cash Shoppers on Sanctuary... We pay for your servers (one of those 47k HP barbs gets between 50 and 100 ToBL's a week, if that tells you anything, and those are just the ones I see).

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

I freaking did the math for you babies and you're STILL arguing? FFS...

math is just a statistic based on luck or something.

Hehehehe... People just like being stupid and arguing, just let it go.

Wunderkind - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There's a lot more to solo'ing then who can guess the most damage on bosses. I know 4 sins with r9 and none of them use it to solo TTs because it's a lot more charm **** then they care to use. (G13s cost me 200k a run for charms on average... I need to drag along my cleric more QQ).

For yet another time I say again, it's not just getting 3-3 complete...no one would do 3-3 solo if it cost 3 hp charms.....it's doing it with efficiency and their are better options out there then r9 doing 3-3. He's going to die ... a lot with no charm (and he sure as hell is going to use a **** ton more charm if he means will mine tick at all with r9 rather then nrivana g15/13).

Ezehc - Lost City wrote: »

burn 150k charm per 3-3/3-2 sologhost lord, beast, emperor, minister, wrist boss.
takes about 30-40 minutes.
people who think g13 is better makes me lol.

I Just wanted to show the compairason, because you probably forgot your own charm burn when answering this :

Wunderkind - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That you cheze? O.o

And is that quick switching different daggers r9/other you have? So far it seems G15 is the best option out of the 3. And you use 150k that's more then roid asked to use, he said charmless.

and you still complain b:laugh So for you the answer would be : "you cannot solo 3-x without a charm. However, if you do get a charm to solo, rather go with g13, oh no I changed my mind, now g15 is better, cause it's slower and uses more hp charm, but at least it won't be because of the proc."

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

math is just a statistic based on luck or something.

Hehehehe... People just like being stupid and arguing, just let it go.

And luck is just the occurrence of the improbable.