LAsin>HAsin>HAbm? (dd)

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Negreiros - Sanctuary
Negreiros - Sanctuary Posts: 113 Arc User
edited May 2011 in General Discussion
is it true a sin HA can outdamage a BM?


ps: i did some calculations on pwcalc , for what i've seen:
i can go 5 aps with a sin being SAGE,and with a recast fist (-0,05 + SacrificialStrike proc).
i have to be demon to go 5 aps with same ekips,they would have similar damage but BMs have fist mastery
atak goes from (14123-15821) to ( 15389-1723 ).

more specific questions :
is the sage Blood Paint enought to prevent my HP going down ?(Sacrificial Strike weapon+5aps)
how much(fast) Sacrificial strike takes my HP? is it viable for a 5aps BM who dont have BP all time?
Average Increase of damage from SS is greater than Demon fist mastery?
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Post edited by Negreiros - Sanctuary on
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  • ColdAsLife - Dreamweaver
    ColdAsLife - Dreamweaver Posts: 432 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Trollin' alert.
    ColdAsLife, 90, Proud Sage Archer
    ArchRaziel, 5x, Cleric
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  • Abstractive - Archosaur
    Abstractive - Archosaur Posts: 1,232 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Negreiros - Sanctuary wrote: »
    is it true a sin HA can outdamage a BM?

    Double facefin.
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  • Negreiros - Sanctuary
    Negreiros - Sanctuary Posts: 113 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    no trolling...i was just expect someone to do the math for me and if i was lucky, pw calc links and sage/demon disscussions
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] i have seen PW alive...it was awesome xD
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Assuming same refines on weapons, all of them being 5APS


    LA Dag sin > HA BM > HA Claw sin
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    If you need something that requires complicated calculations to be done...general discussion is the wrong place, you need to go to the archer subforums and perform a summoning ritual

    Alas I cannot help you here, I am a fail archer because the various combinations of numbers and symbols associated with the subject of teh Maffs are incompatible with my brain.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    The reason no one likes to present calculations on general is because it gets buried by stupid.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If you need something that requires complicated calculations to be done...general discussion is the wrong place, you need to go to the archer subforums and perform a summoning ritual

    Alas I cannot help you here, I am a fail archer because the various combinations of numbers and symbols associated with the subject of teh Maffs are incompatible with my brain.

    I've already provided the answer OP was after, no maffs are required. :D
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Fist sin vs Fist BM depends on factors...
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Fist sin vs Fist BM depends on factors...


    Such as the strength of each, whether or not the sin spams Wolf Emblem, whether or not they're glitching Powerdash for 70%+ crit, what genie skills are involved, whether or not the BM is glitching DBB for 80/135% fire damage from weapon? Stuff like that? :o

    I could see a claw sin matching a BM's DPS or maybe even passing it if they were able to perma Powerdash glitch and use Wolf Emblem at every cooldown... but meh, I'd take a BM over a claw sin wannabe anyday.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I could see a claw sin matching a BM's DPS or maybe even passing it if they were able to perma Powerdash glitch and use Wolf Emblem at every cooldown... but meh, I'd take a BM over a claw sin wannabe anyday.

    Sage sin (as specified in the OP) has a 30 minute wolf emblem.

    Roughly
    HA claw sage sin = HA demon BM > LA claw sage sin

    if the sin exploits the glitch on canceling sage powerdash (+50% crit)..
    HA claw sage sin > LA claw sage sin > HA demon BM
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage sin (as specified in the OP) has a 30 minute wolf emblem.

    Roughly
    HA claw sage sin = HA demon BM > LA claw sage sin

    if the sin exploits the glitch on canceling sage powerdash (+50% crit)..
    HA claw sage sin > LA claw sage sin > HA demon BM

    Eh didn't read their post after it was edited, but mmkay fair enough. A class not meant to use claws outdamages a class meant to use claws... something's just wrong with that...

    *cries*
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Eh didn't read their post after it was edited, but mmkay fair enough. A class not meant to use claws outdamages a class meant to use claws... something's just wrong with that...

    *cries*

    b:tired find me something that isnt.

    well anyway maybe now ppl will stop making fun of claw sins :o
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    It also depends on crit rate and whether the sin can 5.0 with Chill.

    Really though, sins do much more damage with daggers so it's pointless to go 5.0 chill + claws unless you just want to prove a point.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It also depends on crit rate and whether the sin can 5.0 with Chill.

    Really though, sins do much more damage with daggers so it's pointless to go 5.0 chill + claws unless you just want to prove a point.

    HA claw sins I have only seen explained as alts to farm for mains, basically it is used like a BM with stealth and cheaper 5.0 due to using claws, I think damage is less a question than the convenience of stealth and sin buffs but idk I've never actually looked into the details of these builds and if they are worth it for their purpose or not.
  • Wunderkind - Dreamweaver
    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    HA claw sins I have only seen explained as alts to farm for mains, basically it is used like a BM with stealth and cheaper 5.0 due to using claws, I think damage is less a question than the convenience of stealth and sin buffs but idk I've never actually looked into the details of these builds and if they are worth it for their purpose or not.

    A demon sin that has all his/her -int for 4.0 base can use demon chill of the deep to stay 5.0 and have an extra 30 atk levels. That seems to actually bring it even if not more then a BM's damage.
    Currently: pwcalc.com/b4c92dacf1da8c21
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    I'd still prefer having a Demon BM in squad over a 5APS claw sin any day. Just sayin'
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    The real question is whether a 5.0 claw barb with the best gear possible can output more DPS than a 5.0 claw BM.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Regeston - Heavens Tear
    Regeston - Heavens Tear Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    I personally do my calculations by testing em out myself.


    I do have both, HA Sin and HA BM and using the same gear on both, my Demon Sin outdamages my HA BM..

    Well, the fact of my BM is Sage doesnt mean he is useless but eh, i can tell he can tank better than my sin.

    But if you choose HA sin, go APS defo, as much as possible.

    If you want to crit like a madman, go DPS LA OR, full aps (abov 5) with the atk lvl skill (thats aswell godlike)

    But my answer to yours.

    PVE HA Sage Aps BM < HA Demon Aps Sin / BM loss cause of low DPS/Crit%
    PvP Ha Sage Aps BM > Ha Demon Aps Sin / Sin loss cause of low damage against HA

    Just my opinion, i can be wrong at some point - but i really think the BM overcomes the sin cause of his cooldown of their skills. BM's can easily repel demon sparks if you know how to use the skills.

    Im not aware of the calculations, but thats from my own testings and experiences =)
  • Regeston - Heavens Tear
    Regeston - Heavens Tear Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The real question is whether a 5.0 claw barb with the best gear possible can output more DPS than a 5.0 claw BM.

    I sincerely doupt that.

    Barbs may have titans and extra critrate, but they still aint got fist mastery.
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Regeston - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I sincerely doupt that.

    Barbs may have titans and extra critrate, but they still aint got fist mastery.

    Actually, I heard a long time ago from some part of the forums in a thread of which the name I cant remember that some guy on some server tested it and the barb out-dps'd the bm :]

    Legit I swear!
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Regeston - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I sincerely doupt that.

    Barbs may have titans and extra critrate, but they still aint got fist mastery.

    I wonder how many people realize Fist mastery contributes less than 10% damage to a BMs DPS.
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  • Wunderkind - Dreamweaver
    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Actually, I heard a long time ago from some part of the forums in a thread of which the name I cant remember that some guy on some server tested it and the barb out-dps'd the bm :]

    Legit I swear!

    It is legit and they have calcs on the forums somewhere. Our poison fang does more damage then fist mastery does. This is of course raw damage, if you want to use skill combos debuffs etc then that's where it gets fuzzy.
    Currently: pwcalc.com/b4c92dacf1da8c21
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    It is legit and they have calcs on the forums somewhere. Our poison fang does more damage then fist mastery does. This is of course raw damage, if you want to use skill combos debuffs etc then that's where it gets fuzzy.

    I would love anyone forever if they could show me where the calcs are to this, I find it very intriguing

    and I love claw barbs :D
  • Wunderkind - Dreamweaver
    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I would love anyone forever if they could show me where the calcs are to this, I find it very intriguing

    and I love claw barbs :D

    ....Loading.... b:laugh

    Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Yeah that was me and here is the post:

    Made 2 comparisons for fist barb and fist bm, now assuming the fist stratagy is hit til demon spark and repeat, the two are very similar. Now the barb has damage from Poison Fang that doesnt show in calc, +483-571 for 5924-6692 damage per hit, a very small difference from the bm'd damage, and more than made up for by the extra 4% crit

    Barb
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f80503abef24cf81
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 28% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 67339.2 (this includes damage from demon poison fang)

    Bladmaster
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8d0ec812e587cd6c
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 24% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 65468.9

    Now keep in mind that this advantage only holds for 60seconds after demon titans buff. The BM will take a very slight damage lead after the crit part of the buff wears off. Aslo, if you buff BM with titans he will do more DPS than you (if you are exact same build/gear).

    ....100% Complete.... b:victory

    As I said it's very dependent on buffs and skill combos. He didn't factor in things like bestial onslaught 35% crit glitch as bms also have crit glitches and if you take penetrate armor vs HF hf will obviously win, this also depends on what you have on your genie (tangling and frenzy for instance).

    In all intensive situations it's pretty much the same as I can tell. My barb is 4.0 but sage and I can say using my sage penetrate armor + tangling + frenzy + windshield can really put out just as much as a bm still.
    Currently: pwcalc.com/b4c92dacf1da8c21
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Yaaayyy :D

    *insert clapping tiger smily*

    iloveuiloveuiloveuiloveuiloveuiloveuiloveuiloveu
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    To answer the actual topic question:
    Semi-HA 5 APS Claw Sage Sin: 169,035 dps
    Semi-HA 5 APS CoD Claw Demon Sin: 203,916 dps
    5 APS BM: 158,313 dps
    Full HA 5 APS Claw Demon Sin: 173,805 dps

    A few comments:
    1. I did not include an LA claw build because that'd be silly.
    2. I did not include armor shards for the BM because BMs don't shard DoTs so the shards have no effect on DPS
    3. I put random "endgame" items in slots that did not matter, such as the Sage Sin's ornaments.
    4. I did not include R9 because I'm too lazy. And if you look at the numbers, it's highly doubtful that including R9 would provide anything of interest.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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  • Wunderkind - Dreamweaver
    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    To answer the actual topic question:
    Semi-HA 5 APS Claw Sage Sin: 169,035 dps
    Semi-HA 5 APS CoD Claw Demon Sin: 203,916 dps
    5 APS BM: 158,313 dps
    Full HA 5 APS Claw Demon Sin: 173,805 dps

    A few comments:
    1. I did not include an LA claw build because that'd be silly.
    2. I did not include armor shards for the BM because BMs don't shard DoTs so the shards have no effect on DPS
    3. I put random "endgame" items in slots that did not matter, such as the Sage Sin's ornaments.
    4. I did not include R9 because I'm too lazy. And if you look at the numbers, it's highly doubtful that including R9 would provide anything of interest.

    Now do 5.0 G15 nirvana SS daggers, 5.0 G13 nirvana daggers, and 4.0 r9 dagger calc and see if they are higher then a few of those put together. I bet 4.0 r9 daggers doubles up highest one. b:shutup
    Currently: pwcalc.com/b4c92dacf1da8c21
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Now do 5.0 G15 nirvana SS daggers, 5.0 G13 nirvana daggers, and 4.0 r9 dagger calc and see if they are higher then a few of those put together. I bet 4.0 r9 daggers doubles up highest one. b:shutup

    And even if so, then what?

    None of those are interesting in any means. R9 > G15 > G13.

    ANd it looks like I forgot to switch from Sage Dagger Devotion to Demon, not gonna fix that. It wouldn't really change anything.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Ehh you gave the sins dots while the BM is unsharded. Are you accounting for wolf emblem correctly?
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ehh you gave the sins dots while the BM is unsharded. Are you accounting for wolf emblem correctly?

    I gave the sins DoTs because that's what they would be wearing. The BMs wouldn't. Or I dunno, but I've never seen a BM with full sharded DoTs.

    And I did not factor Wolf Emblem in. As with other small details, it's not really necessary. It wouldn't change the ranking among the sins as it'd be the same for all three and the extent of superiority over a BM is kinda uninteresting.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.

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