Sage vs Demon for soloing FF

kriviox
kriviox Posts: 0 Arc User
edited May 2011 in Assassin
Title kind of says it all.

My end-game goal is to be able to plvl people with my sin to make money to be able to afford things for my my sin and other characters and other stuff (this isn't a debate about if plvling people is wrong/right this is about being sage or demon, please remember that)

The more I read about sage sins, skill wise, it's sounds nice. Dagger Devotion increasing the attack by 90% would make BP heal more on top of the sage BP healing 3% instead of 2%. From what I can find sage sin is meant for survivability, which if you are soloing FF for people, you may want to stay alive.

However, 90% of the sins that I see who ARE soloing FF for people, are all demon. Is there something I am doing wrong with my calculations that would make it so that demon is more superior for this? Is the increase in attack really a better option than sage bp (and other skills)?

Also, in addition to this above, I am wondering HOW much better sage is for tanking FF (if people tell me it is) because I was considering going demon to avoid having to buy a whole lot of skills because the skills are rather expensive. At least up front. I know I will have to have good gear, so please, let's not discuss gear unless you are saying that it doesnt matter if you are sage or demon because gear is what matters -or- if you are saying that it is easier for one culti over the other with not top of the line gear (meaning I could get away with less refines up front by going one way or another)

Another reason, before research, I was leaning toward demon is because I am not a skill spammer, I enjoy autoattacking and talking with the group im in more than I enjoy hitting buttons all the time. Though, I know some skills need to be used xD

I know there are a zillion Sage/Demon questions and I have gone through stuff on it and read all the skills and advantages of each skill demon/sage however, I couldn't find much on why most FF soloers that I see are demon over sage.Thanks in advance :'D
Post edited by kriviox on

Comments

  • Dezto - Harshlands
    Dezto - Harshlands Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Tbh. it does not really matter once you get ~2.5 aps and +6k hp. Soloing FC is easy whether your are demon or sage.

    oh and inb4 olbaze, skai and empu spam this thread. b:laugh
  • kriviox
    kriviox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Mk that helps.

    I've heard of quite a few sins going demon at 89 and then after they get all the mats they need from farming nirvana (or get a good reputation/friends that will take them as a sage) they switch over to sage, which does make me wonder lol. Cause I was planning to probably go demon at 89 and then re-evaluate demon vs sage at 100. And see which path is 'worth it' seeing as aps is (up front before you get a reputation) what get's you into the squads. Though, one who was planning to do that, went demon then decided to stay demon lol.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    kriviox wrote: »
    The more I read about sage sins, skill wise, it's sounds nice. Dagger Devotion increasing the attack by 90% would make BP heal more on top of the sage BP healing 3% instead of 2%. From what I can find sage sin is meant for survivability, which if you are soloing FF for people, you may want to stay alive.

    Unless you're comparing 4 aps sage to 5 aps sin, Sages will always heal more with Sage BP, irregardless of Dagger Devotion.
    However, 90% of the sins that I see who ARE soloing FF for people, are all demon. Is there something I am doing wrong with my calculations that would make it so that demon is more superior for this? Is the increase in attack really a better option than sage bp (and other skills)?

    That's simply because like 99% of all 89+ sins are Demon. Reason for that is the same old stuff. There's also the fact that Demons have more DPS, therefore they clear FCC faster, meaning more coin/time.
    Also, in addition to this above, I am wondering HOW much better sage is for tanking FF (if people tell me it is) because I was considering going demon to avoid having to buy a whole lot of skills because the skills are rather expensive. At least up front. I know I will have to have good gear, so please, let's not discuss gear unless you are saying that it doesnt matter if you are sage or demon because gear is what matters -or- if you are saying that it is easier for one culti over the other with not top of the line gear (meaning I could get away with less refines up front by going one way or another)

    If you're going solo, then you don't really need any of the really expensive skills. You can spend 45m on the Advanced Mystical Page clip to get Bloodpaint, Dagger Devotion, Rising Dragon Strike, Chill of the Deep, Earthen Rift and Deaden Nerves. Since you're going along, there's really no need for Sage Power Dash and Sage Subsea, which are the actual hard-as-hell-to-get, expensive-as-your-firstborn-child skills.
    Another reason, before research, I was leaning toward demon is because I am not a skill spammer, I enjoy autoattacking and talking with the group im in more than I enjoy hitting buttons all the time. Though, I know some skills need to be used xD

    I'm a Sage and I spend majority of my time auto-attacking.
    Dezto - Harshlands wrote: »
    oh and inb4 olbaze, skai and empu spam this thread. b:laugh

    Oh but I couldn't do that, I've never actually tried soloing FCC.

    At the very best, a Demon sin will get equal heals from Bloodpaint compared to a Sage sin. However, there's still the reduction from Sage spark and Sage Focused Mind, which makes the Sage always more durable.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kriviox
    kriviox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    At the very best, a Demon sin will get equal heals from Bloodpaint compared to a Sage sin. However, there's still the reduction from Sage spark and Sage Focused Mind, which makes the Sage always more durable

    Hm, if that is the case, and we say they do get equal heals, which would be more efficient in FF (and nirvana probably for later, but mostly talking ff) higher DPS or higher resistance? I can't manage to calculate that out because I know if you're fighting and the mob attacks once every 2 seconds, well if you take 6 extra seconds because you dont have the DPS, you took on 3 extra hits that you wouldn't have had you had you been faster, however, if you can take more damage does that equal out or does one reign supreme over the other?
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There's also the fact that Demons have more DPS, therefore they clear FCC faster, meaning more coin/time.

    I avoided the Sin pLevelers because they skipped a lot of mobs that barbs were getting. Sage sins would be better equipped to kill the mobs with their combination of skills like Chill of the Deep for +35atk level vs 30, Dagger Devotion for 90% vs 75%, Subsea for +50%dmg vs 30, Earthen Rift for 430% weap dmg vs 400. Triple Sparked, and with Sage BP; they would also find it easier tanking multiple mobs if even needed. When it comes to AoE Dmg, I don't think there's any argument against Sage having far better DPS when you stack up Chill, Dagg Devotion, Subsea, Earthen Rift, triple spark, and Tangling Mire. -They're all going to have a synergistic effect that Demon doesn't appear to touch.

    When it comes to the 1-1 bosses; you merely*might* have an argument. Bosses in FF stun, silence, sleep, etc. I'm not sure, but I think Sage has better chi recovery for eruptions (perma-sparking) with Rising Dragon Strike, Inner Harmony, and Master Li's Technique, and is also capable of spamming Wind Shield to match the aps of a Demon. Now throw in Sage's superior Devotion mastery. Wolf Emblem is probably going to depend on the duration of the battles, but is something to consider as well (30m buff vs 30s w/cd).

    There is no fact that demons clear FCC faster, as it's very circumstantial. It's like a veno that thinks it can take out range mobs that kite faster with their Nix than I can with an Ethereal Inamorato, or think of it as muscle car vs a car that handles corners faster. -It depends on the road.
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  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Dezto - Harshlands wrote: »
    Tbh. it does not really matter once you get ~2.5 aps and +6k hp. Soloing FC is easy whether your are demon or sage.

    oh and inb4 olbaze, skai and empu spam this thread. b:laugh

    b:laugh I decided not to post, even though I read this thread before any posts were made
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  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    kriviox wrote: »
    Hm, if that is the case, and we say they do get equal heals, which would be more efficient in FF (and nirvana probably for later, but mostly talking ff) higher DPS or higher resistance? I can't manage to calculate that out because I know if you're fighting and the mob attacks once every 2 seconds, well if you take 6 extra seconds because you dont have the DPS, you took on 3 extra hits that you wouldn't have had you had you been faster, however, if you can take more damage does that equal out or does one reign supreme over the other?

    Tricky question.

    What happens if you have 5 mobs on you at once?

    Demon sin suddenly has to spark just to stay alive from the HP restore from spark; Sage Sin sparks for HP restore and gets 25% damage reduction.

    For my play style, and what I want to do, sage is best for me. I spent ~2 hours looking at and comparing skills.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    For my play style, and what I want to do, sage is best for me. I spent ~2 hours looking at and comparing skills.

    Same here, however it's difficult to determine w/o being to that point we're going to be how great our choice is. I didn't know I'd be able to 1 hit kill map 3 mobs w/ veno until I started doing it for example. If Demon were able to 1-2 hit AoE kill any FFC mobs, or any other profitable mob with just a +10 rank 8 or Nirvana weapon, then Demon may be more appealing.

    I think I forgot to mention Sage Rib Strike in my previous post. Many demon sins I come across don't even have a clue about sage skills outside of Bloodpaint, especially this one. I find myself many times being in a squad where I'm the only one with a -% max HP skill including those hella fun all sin stealth FFC squads. Demons will assume they contributed more because of having aggro while we took 1/10 off generating very little.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Lord_Ghetto - Dreamweaver
    Lord_Ghetto - Dreamweaver Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    if u have the coin for the gear ...sage... only reason most sins go demon is for the aps....but cant a 4aps sin get 5aps wit genie skill wind shield.... better skills same dmg but slightly more costly ...
    "Don't argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their lv and beat you with experience." b:surrender b:laugh
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Selling FC is a terrible way to make money. There are faster ways to make money with 5 APS.
    Lord_Ghetto - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    but cant a 4aps sin get 5aps wit genie skill wind shield....

    Not constantly.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Selling FC is a terrible way to make money. There are faster ways to make money with 5 APS.

    Then again if this person is considering selling FCCs for coin, they're most likely:
    1. Not 5 aps
    2. Looking for a solo way to get profit

    Then again soloing TTs might be better.
    Not constantly.

    Indeed. Though, it is possible for you to be under Wind Shield roughly 50% of the time, which would make any sage an average of 4.5 aps if so desired.
    I think I forgot to mention Sage Rib Strike in my previous post. Many demon sins I come across don't even have a clue about sage skills outside of Bloodpaint, especially this one. I find myself many times being in a squad where I'm the only one with a -% max HP skill including those hella fun all sin stealth FFC squads. Demons will assume they contributed more because of having aggro while we took 1/10 off generating very little.

    I've actually gotten complaints about using Sage Rib Strike on bosses in FCC.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    kriviox wrote: »
    However, 90% of the sins that I see who ARE soloing FF for people, are all demon. Is there something I am doing wrong with my calculations that would make it so that demon is more superior for this? Is the increase in attack really a better option than sage bp (and other skills)?

    90%+ of all sins are demon, only logical 90%+ off the sins soloing fcc are demon b:laugh
    Dezto - Harshlands wrote: »
    Tbh. it does not really matter once you get ~2.5 aps and +6k hp. Soloing FC is easy whether your are demon or sage.

    oh and inb4 olbaze, skai and empu spam this thread. b:laugh

    Not much to add to that b:chuckle fcc is easy to solo. The only 2 "hard" bosses are :
    Stormtrooper with it's chain sleep : with every lvl100 having r8 or better, they can all kill it before chain sleep.
    Fragrance : most only go till exp room so who cares (even though the part after exp room is the best exp/time lol)
    kriviox wrote: »
    Mk that helps.

    I've heard of quite a few sins going demon at 89 and then after they get all the mats they need from farming nirvana (or get a good reputation/friends that will take them as a sage) they switch over to sage, which does make me wonder lol. Cause I was planning to probably go demon at 89 and then re-evaluate demon vs sage at 100. And see which path is 'worth it' seeing as aps is (up front before you get a reputation) what get's you into the squads. Though, one who was planning to do that, went demon then decided to stay demon lol.

    Just my opinion on this side-topic : Going 1 culti to change after is a total waste. For a +/- 2.5 aps demon sin it's just as hard to find squads for vana as for a +/- 2 aps sage sin. Those I saw changing culti are mainly those who simply trashed on sage like most of the ppl did before. The whole "sage only good when you have money and are 100+" is just to hide they acted like a fool. Those who changed their mind on swapping culti, are usually those who find out they need to get their lvl100 culti done to actually be able too. There is no real "aps sin" 89 to 99, so rather just pick the culti you prefer right away.
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    90%+ of all sins are demon, only logical 90%+ off the sins soloing fcc are demon b:laugh



    Not much to add to that b:chuckle fcc is easy to solo. The only 2 "hard" bosses are :
    Stormtrooper with it's chain sleep : with every lvl100 having r8 or better, they can all kill it before chain sleep.
    Fragrance : most only go till exp room so who cares (even though the part after exp room is the best exp/time lol)



    Just my opinion on this side-topic : Going 1 culti to change after is a total waste. For a +/- 2.5 aps demon sin it's just as hard to find squads for vana as for a +/- 2 aps sage sin. Those I saw changing culti are mainly those who simply trashed on sage like most of the ppl did before. The whole "sage only good when you have money and are 100+" is just to hide they acted like a fool. Those who changed their mind on swapping culti, are usually those who find out they need to get their lvl100 culti done to actually be able too. There is no real "aps sin" 89 to 99, so rather just pick the culti you prefer right away.

    About Shocktrooper... During an FCC with a full squad, we had a partial wipe at Shocktrooper. Cleric died... Then the Sin... Then the BM... And basically I was left alone on my Archer with Shocktrooper and some, er, dirtnappers while the cleric came back.

    I noticed that after a bit, I resisted a sleep/bubble using spark, and then... Shocktrooper stopped even using sleep. Started using a ranged, weak water attack. Was easy to tank with regular pots, forget crabs. I managed to kill it before the cleric came back.

    Anyone ever tried to kill Shocktrooper with a bow? Just a thought.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Lord_Ghetto - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    if u have the coin for the gear ...sage... only reason most sins go demon is for the aps....but cant a 4aps sin get 5aps wit genie skill wind shield.... better skills same dmg but slightly more costly ...

    How is it more costly? Sage BP saves on pots, Sage Eruption saves on pots, Sage chi recovery skills save on pots / genie stamina. Sage more dmg per hit saves on weapon repairs. Sage Rib Strike saves up to ~10% on weapon repair alone. Sage Chill of the Deep gives you more bang for the buck on Knife Throw, Bow usage, and any skills including AoE.
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    About Shocktrooper... During an FCC with a full squad, we had a partial wipe at Shocktrooper. Cleric died... Then the Sin... Then the BM... And basically I was left alone on my Archer with Shocktrooper and some, er, dirtnappers while the cleric came back.

    I noticed that after a bit, I resisted a sleep/bubble using spark, and then... Shocktrooper stopped even using sleep. Started using a ranged, weak water attack. Was easy to tank with regular pots, forget crabs. I managed to kill it before the cleric came back.

    Anyone ever tried to kill Shocktrooper with a bow? Just a thought.

    I think he doesn't put the bubble on the tank or person with aggro; at least from what I'm observing. -Not sure if soloing would make a difference though.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I noticed that after a bit, I resisted a sleep/bubble using spark, and then... Shocktrooper stopped even using sleep. Started using a ranged, weak water attack. Was easy to tank with regular pots, forget crabs. I managed to kill it before the cleric came back.

    Anyone ever tried to kill Shocktrooper with a bow? Just a thought.

    Shocktrooper does 2 things : a normal sleep and a sleep+dot. both are only used on random ppl not tanking, so if soloing you will get continuously put asleep. It is possible that with a bow he only does the dot thing, and not the regular sleep, hence not a chain sleep.

    Maybe I should test it, but I got a really bad bow (and no bp when using it) while having amazing daggers. Easiest thing is to simply spark and use a vac when he awakes. Vac > ad > maze steps is enough to kill a weak stormtrooper on an average sin. The dot is not a problem if you can keep attacking.
  • kriviox
    kriviox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Hm, lot to think about. I appreciate it.

    I had been leaning toward sage for it's benefits on most skills. The aps is what was catching me back more toward demon. Though, before I do decide to go one way or another I'm going to have to look at the prices of skills b:chuckle some of the skills I see selling for 30/40m just for one is a bit out of my price range when I'm trying to upgrade gear and goods.(like HF being 40m on HT sever) Sage shadow escape looked nifty too in addition to all that was said here and wolf emblem lasting 30 minutes rather than what seems like two seconds >.< Because going demon, there are very few skills I would get, whereas sage would be a bit more of an investment (seeing as if I'm going sage for the skills then don't get the skills, kind of sol there)

    I think once I am in FF and actually fighting the mobs I'll be able to judge better on my sin for how much damage they do to me, how many I can hold on me safely, etc. (few levels too low for FF runs, just have done FF on my bm)

    Though, sage/demon BP is at 92? Ecatomb skill list is showing up as available at 92, though, a long while ago I heard someone talking about they couldn't wait til 99 for sage bp? Is ecatomb or the person wrong?
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    kriviox wrote: »
    HmI had been leaning toward sage for it's benefits on most skills. The aps is what was catching me back more toward demon. Though, before I do decide to go one way or another I'm going to have to look at the prices of skills b:chuckle some of the skills I see selling for 30/40m just for one is a bit out of my price range when I'm trying to upgrade gear and goods.(like HF being 40m on HT sever) Sage shadow escape looked nifty too in addition to all that was said here and wolf emblem lasting 30 minutes rather than what seems like two seconds >.< Because going demon, there are very few skills I would get, whereas sage would be a bit more of an investment (seeing as if I'm going sage for the skills then don't get the skills, kind of sol there)

    Best choice in terms of budget would be to spend ~45m on the 300 Advanced Mystical Page clip. Gets you a bunch of key skills, such as Bloodpaint, Dagger Devotion, Deaden Nerves, Chill of the Deep, Rising Dragon Strike, Earthen Rift and Shadow Escape.
    Though, sage/demon BP is at 92? Ecatomb skill list is showing up as available at 92, though, a long while ago I heard someone talking about they couldn't wait til 99 for sage bp? Is ecatomb or the person wrong?

    It's 92, I say that from personal experience, as I learned Sage Bloodpaint and Dagger Devotion on 94. Basically, the level requirement on the book is correct, but the cultivation requirement is still messed up. You don't actually need Master of Harmony for the 92 skills.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kriviox
    kriviox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Best choice in terms of budget would be to spend ~45m on the 300 Advanced Mystical Page clip. Gets you a bunch of key skills, such as Bloodpaint, Dagger Devotion, Deaden Nerves, Chill of the Deep, Rising Dragon Strike, Earthen Rift and Shadow Escape.



    It's 92, I say that from personal experience, as I learned Sage Bloodpaint and Dagger Devotion on 94. Basically, the level requirement on the book is correct, but the cultivation requirement is still messed up. You don't actually need Master of Harmony for the 92 skills.

    Ah thank you.

    Also, about 45m for all of them or per each? Or is it like a gamble with the skill books where it costs 4.5m (when tokens are 10k) per try just to get a book you already have b:chuckle
  • Mauntille - Heavens Tear
    Mauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    kriviox wrote: »
    Ah thank you.

    Also, about 45m for all of them or per each? Or is it like a gamble with the skill books where it costs 4.5m (when tokens are 10k) per try just to get a book you already have b:chuckle

    It's about 45mil to get the bookclip. You get your 300 pages all at once and trade them in to the Mystical Librarian in 1k for 10 books. You're guaranteed to get 10 different books, as opposed to tokens and potentially getting the same book over and over.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    kriviox wrote: »
    Ah thank you.

    Also, about 45m for all of them or per each? Or is it like a gamble with the skill books where it costs 4.5m (when tokens are 10k) per try just to get a book you already have b:chuckle

    With the Advanced Mystical Pages, you get 10 different books. And btw, I deeply regret that I spent about 35m trying to get Bloodpaint from the same stuff by buying single random books.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kriviox
    kriviox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    With the Advanced Mystical Pages, you get 10 different books. And btw, I deeply regret that I spent about 35m trying to get Bloodpaint from the same stuff by buying single random books.

    Ya that is why I asked lol. I spent....well.... I have 12 BM books in my BMs inventory that are useless to me.


    Three were gifted so. 9 x 4.5: 40.5m then I made 5 of the ones I use. I gave up and bought demon bell for 25.
    88m for skills was ridiculous and I didn't even have HF which I believe is around 40m -_-. Hence why I am skeptical about making the same mistake twice. So glad I know about that now though. b:thanks

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