Wait wait wait... fists?!

Lynndis - Raging Tide wrote: »

Okay, I've been playing PWI on and off for a few years now, nothing too serious though. (As my highest char is a 58, in sanctuary, which I have since left due to realizing I have bad latency there. Now I'm in Raging Tide, highest char is currently 36.)

I've seen ideas and build schemes come and go, without ever being able to use any of them since I've never really gotten that far in the game. (I remember the days where fist weapons for BM's were sighed upon.)
But, now-a-days I see things like "Archers are done! Clerics are done! SINS FTW!" and other ****. Also, while browsing the archer sections for ideas, I see more people talking about fist weapons then... you know... what an archer is supposed to use! Bows / crossbows/ slingshots. I mean, is the whole game so absorbed in "aps" that regular gameplay is obsolete now?

Now, as I said, I've never gotten above 60, so I haven't done things like TT, TW, FC, and other high level things. But, after getting a job and finally being able to CS a little bit, I've delved full heartedly into PWI (After having a terrible experience with WoW.) But I am completely lost when people start talking about gear. I understand what TT gear is, but then people start saying things like G15, or CS;+5 or whatever, and I have no idea what any of those abbreviations mean.

Basically, I'm still completely a noob, despite having played for so long. But, I really want to play an archer, as I have always adored the high lv bow designs, the skill animations, and the overall look of archers.
So, are archers really that obsolete now? I would like some general hints on acquiring gear, but on gear help I would actually like to see the full names, and some general info on how to get it, pls? And, are fists really all that important to archers now? I don't have as much time to play as many other people, so if I'm going to invest in gear, I want to invest in what my arsenal is supposed to be, ranged weaponry.

I realize I'm asking for a lot, but I really do want to start getting far in this game. I want to eventually be a contender in higher level content, and Archers have always been a class that I look up too, despite never leveling one past 25.

Well, it comes down to triple sparking, with APS. The idea behind the APS craze is that, with lots of APSes, you build up chi really fast. Then, you triple spark. This heals you for 25% of your HP, and 25% of your MP, increases your damage by 700% of your weapons damage, for Demon gives you a 25% boost in attack speed, and for Sage gives you an incoming damage reduction of 25%.

Once you get to 3.33 APS base, a Demon archer can 'Perma spark' (the attack speed bonus lasts long enough for them to build up 3 sparks again before the spark effect wears off). They will also be at 4.0 (or is it rounded up like sins to 5.0?), and will be able to do vastly more damage per minute (DPM) than with any bow, crossbow, or slingshot.

I'm going sage on my Archer. I will be 5.0 Base, and will be able to go Sage Spark at all times. Being 5.0 and sparking is basically wasting part of your spark's ability, why have a speed boost if you're at 5.0 base? >_> Plus, the damage reduction will be nice, and my base speed with bow/clingshot/crossbow will be about the same as a Demon archer that's 4.0 base sparked with a bow/sling/xbow (erm... Well, you gotta consider gear levels here, too... 5.0 with some nubby fists isn't gonna come close to 1.10 aps with R9+12. But, a G11 Fist at 4.0 will out DPM a G11 bow at ~0.9 APS, refines being around the same, and considering the same sharding).

Anyway... Fists/claws are here to stay for Archers. They are actually quite useful, even at lower APS, just with Sage Spark I can kill the Bishops in FCC at Dreadindra quite easily, and guess what? it's a benefit of being Sage, that incoming damage reduction kicks in and keeps me alive since I have to tank those things too. >_> I have somewhat nubby claws, they're unrefined and unsharded, and I will possibly be getting Divine claws to replace them. Genorex Vanity is too expensive for me ATM. Need to farm.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Unless you are a veno, spark will increase your physical attack by 500% of your weapon damage OR will increase your magic attack by 700% of your weapon damage. Archers get the physical attack increase, of course.

Also, classes with a magic attack increase get mana recovery from spark (and a channelling speedup instead of an attack speed increase -- except I am not sure about demon venos) and everyone else gets a heal from spark.

Note that the skill description sometimes says other things, and the skill description has been wrong (though hypothetically speaking they could change that on us).

Anyways, your total current attack strength shows up when you hit C so you can work out the details, if you like.

Ah, it says 700% weapon damage bonus on the skill description for Sage/Demon spark for Archers. I wondered if it was bugged... And Veno is so broken, it doesn't really matter to me much anymore what triple spark gives. b:sad I really wish it was otherwise, though...

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, you can, if you have similar refines on both. But this also pulls a lot of aggro onto you and you take a lot of damage when you are tanking, where with a bow you can see the boss coming and stop shooting and stuff.

If you want to tank, and have a Cleric with Blue Bubble up, this can often times be perfectly fine. If you don't have a cleric... Oh well.

We are not obsolete, but High APS builds are extremely useful for farming.

I honestly do not understand why people are so opposed to seeing archers with fists. It's not like we regularly PK and TW with them, we use them to farm.

We still appreciate our bows and use them when it is most appropriate but if there is a dominant strategy that allows a person to farm more efficiently then don't expect them not to go for it out of some futile, nonsensical pride for wielding a bow.

That whole "stick to your guns" argument is invalid the way I see it, because the archers who now wear claws are sticking to their guns. If they weren't they would have given up and quit a long time ago-when sins came out, when 5 aps became the craze, etc etc. What they have done is adapted. Now we just need the devs to have mercy and give us BP

Anyway G15 stands for Grade 15. If I am correct, the actual PWI term for "grades" of armor and weapons is "Level". I believe "grade" is the malaysian term for "Level". That is why if you look at your gear, you will see Lv.11 (for example) instead of Grade 11.

(Ironic that it is a term common in PVE servers considering I've noticed many PVE server players are strictly opposed to using MY terms and yet use that one with no clue of its origin.)

CS- the only meaning I know of this are Cash shop, Crazy Stone, Cat Shop

If you mean CHS, that would be Crimson Horn: Soulsmasher. A TT80 gold bow with -.05 int and gloom ( I love this bow), the "+5" would likely just refer to teh refine of the bow.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, it comes down to triple sparking, with APS. The idea behind the APS craze is that, with lots of APSes, you build up chi really fast. Then, you triple spark. This heals you for 25% of your HP, and 25% of your MP, increases your damage by 700% of your weapons damage, for Demon gives you a 25% boost in attack speed, and for Sage gives you an incoming damage reduction of 25%.

Once you get to 3.33 APS base, a Demon archer can 'Perma spark' (the attack speed bonus lasts long enough for them to build up 3 sparks again before the spark effect wears off). They will also be at 4.0 (or is it rounded up like sins to 5.0?), and will be able to do vastly more damage per minute (DPM) than with any bow, crossbow, or slingshot.

I'm going sage on my Archer. I will be 5.0 Base, and will be able to go Sage Spark at all times. Being 5.0 and sparking is basically wasting part of your spark's ability, why have a speed boost if you're at 5.0 base? >_> Plus, the damage reduction will be nice, and my base speed with bow/clingshot/crossbow will be about the same as a Demon archer that's 4.0 base sparked with a bow/sling/xbow (erm... Well, you gotta consider gear levels here, too... 5.0 with some nubby fists isn't gonna come close to 1.10 aps with R9+12. But, a G11 Fist at 4.0 will out DPM a G11 bow at ~0.9 APS, refines being around the same, and considering the same sharding).

Anyway... Fists/claws are here to stay for Archers. They are actually quite useful, even at lower APS, just with Sage Spark I can kill the Bishops in FCC at Dreadindra quite easily, and guess what? it's a benefit of being Sage, that incoming damage reduction kicks in and keeps me alive since I have to tank those things too. >_> I have somewhat nubby claws, they're unrefined and unsharded, and I will possibly be getting Divine claws to replace them. Genorex Vanity is too expensive for me ATM. Need to farm.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Unless you are a veno, spark will increase your physical attack by 500% of your weapon damage OR will increase your magic attack by 700% of your weapon damage. Archers get the physical attack increase, of course.

Also, classes with a magic attack increase get mana recovery from spark (and a channelling speedup instead of an attack speed increase -- except I am not sure about demon venos) and everyone else gets a heal from spark.

Note that the skill description sometimes says other things, and the skill description has been wrong (though hypothetically speaking they could change that on us).

Anyways, your total current attack strength shows up when you hit C so you can work out the details, if you like.



Yes, you can, if you have similar refines on both. But this also pulls a lot of aggro onto you and you take a lot of damage when you are tanking, where with a bow you can see the boss coming and stop shooting and stuff.

triple spark will only increase damage by 500% for all phys damage dealing chars- the exception being demon veno with 650% from demon spark, 500% if sage
the 700% applies only to mag classes such as cleric wiz psy and mystic - a sage veno will get 900%, 700% if demon

about the whole -interval, the total -int you need to reach 5.0 (in practice perma spark) is -0.4 which is only available at 99+
the ONLY class that can reach 5.0 UNSPARKED is archer using claws cause with rank 8 they get an additional -0.1 that BMs dont, sins also have the same top but dagger base speed is lower than claws by +0.1 (meaning daggers need -0.1 to reach 1.43 which is fist/claw base speed)

the gear needed to reach 5.0 (meaning 3.33 or 4.0 base) with demon spark for any class is only available at 99+ as i alrdy stated which makes use of most of your gear slots
for a BM heres a gear that ive seen used all of this gear amassing -0.4 totalling 3.33 base clicking demon spark will show 5.0

for an archer if they buy r8 (72 gold when rep on sale) heres what they would need to hit 3.33 unsparked or 4.0 base heres a build using minimal str that gives 4.0 base with Deicides, R8 top, 2x TT99 LA, 2x TT99 HA and lunar cape

sins as stated will need MOST if not al of the items with -interval to reach 5.0 with daggers, sure they could use claws aswell except could still outdamage ppl even with low APS as shown with this build that is pretty much required to get 5.0 for a sin

sins technically have it a bit harder to reach 5.0 in that they need G13 nirvana daggers which require 100 rapture crystals (1.5m~ each usually sometimes 2m) while archers and BMs only need Deicides which can be made for about 50mil with [Lunar Glade Insignia∙Weapon]

these however alrdy stated are usually only for FARMING not for usual practice with theexception of BMs and sins since they have skills for their correcponding weapon, albeit fist BM in PK or TW is horrible specially in mass PK which also makes sins very limited in TW as they are mostly single target
archer on other hand always has the option of using his trusty Bow and killing mass amounts of ppl from a safe distance

on a side note: altho i have 0 aps based char, i have memorized and learned all thats needed to be 5.0 including the interval breaks which go by breaks of -0.05
them being1.25 with it being dagger base speed
1.25--1.33--1.43--1.54--1.67--1.82--2.00--2.22--2.5--2.86--3.33 --4.0
squadding with too many APS chars makes ppl learn useless stuff (○,:,○)

an archer would be nerfing their primal damage with bow by adding any more str than whats needed to wear the claws, while yes having higher str would help with more damage, the amount needed to be comparable to same aps BM would be too much to be useful when switching to the primary wep used for 90% gameplay being Bows, which is why alot like to go with minimal str build and even stating some off if they get too much from gear

also; archer doesnt NEED tome to reach 5.0 base, simply adding in 2nd cast nirvana legs with -0.05 will make an archer 5.0 base tome will not make it go any higher and would be triple the cost
the total amount of -interval reachable is -0.55, sins need -0.5 to get 5.0 sparked, -0.55 to get 4.0 base; archers need -0.4 for 3.33 and -0.45 for 4.0 base if they get -0.5 then they get 5.0 unsparked

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

You can get the 4.0 Archer build you linked to 5.0 unsparked with a tome.

And don't forget, the less STR you have, the lower your fist damage is. The more STR you have, the higher your fist damage is. The more STR you stat in, the less DEX you have, the less bow damage you do. Trade off.

1. Yes for 250-350m, again, why bother other than to show off? You don't even need to 99 ornaments to 5.0 on demon, thus allowing for more flexibility in those 2 gear slots.
2. When you're sparked your stats are trivial, and it comes down more to your weapon's refines, and your gems. Attack is going to help you way more than a tiny bit of str would. The bow drop off is not significant enough to even consider it really... 'less' anyways. On the plus side you get a higher HP helmet, a nice positive trade off.

Lynndis - Raging Tide wrote: »

And, are fists really all that important to archers now? I don't have as much time to play as many other people, so if I'm going to invest in gear, I want to invest in what my arsenal is supposed to be, ranged weaponry.

I realize I'm asking for a lot, but I really do want to start getting far in this game. I want to eventually be a contender in higher level content, and Archers have always been a class that I look up too, despite never leveling one past 25.

I've been an archer in PWI since 25 October 2008, starting on Sanctuary server to level 72 and moving to Dreamweaver where I am now a level 102 archer. Until maybe 3 months ago, I was one of the few remaining 100+ archers on Dreamweaver who REFUSED to go fist/claw archer. I was stubborn, plain and simple. When I first started playing PWI, archers were some of the best DD'ers in the game with our bows, xbows, or slingshots. I remember being yelled at countless time in instances for stealing aggro, learning how to meter my damage so as not to steal aggro, and apologizing countless times for causing deaths (usually my own and at least one other) in parties because I stole aggro.

And then... I finally decided to take the plunge since I had obtained all of my TT99 gear, my rank 8 bow and chest, my Lunar cape. I had finally achieved my ultimate goal of hitting 1.0 with a bow b:laugh I found myself somewhat... well, bored. What do I do now? So I got my little pixel hands on some Deicides (which are level 95 Lunar claws) and a reset note. With my gears, I believe I only needed to restat about 16 points from dex into strength to wear the Deicides, so really the loss of bow damage was minimal to the point of being unnoticeable. And then I learned all that I could do with claws.

The first time I did anything wearing those claws, oh did I kick myself in the rear-end for waiting soooooo long to get them. I am a sage archer with 5.0 aps (attacks per second) base. The gear required to achieve this include the Lunar cape, TT99 heavy neck and belt, TT99 light wrist and boot, rank 8 chest, and 2nd forge (250 uncannies + TT99 light leggings) nirvana leggings. I'll say honestly now that I've gotten my legs completed... the difference between 4.0 and 5.0 is almost unnoticeable because I was already "perma-sparked" at 4.0 - but the new legs were worth every minute of countless hours spent in Nirvana to get them because I take great pride in earning them, in working hard for them.

Archers are far from obsolete. Maybe I can't do all the things a BM can do, but it's close - I can even Heaven's Flame in a manner with Blood Vow, I just can't aoe it b:chuckle I can't pull like a BM can in FC and my lower HP and defenses don't allow me to tank EVERYTHING, but there's very little I can't do these days, including tanking all of FC and any TT up to and including 2-3 (I've not tried anything beyond 2-3 yet and don't really need to because I have some super uber friends I can't take aggro from anyway).

My advice to Lynndis is yes, you should focus on your primary weapon, bow/xbow/slingshot - I was an xbow user until the day I got rank 8, probably one of very few xbow users anywhere b:laugh I now have a useless, unused TT99 gold xbow sitting in my bank collecting dust. If you plan on going "end-game" with an archer, joining a big TW faction, and doing lots of PvP, focus on that ranged weapon goal first, achieve it, get rank 8 or 9 bow, then switch your focus to claws for PvE farming. Your bow damage won't suffer so greatly with a restat at level 100 and you'll amaze yourself with how fast you kill with those claws. I cannot think of a time where I've even attempted to use my claws in TW - I feel that would just be silly. But in PvE, I have gotten to the point of not being able to stand how darn slow a bow is b:chuckle

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

But assassins can use claws to help fund their daggers, and with claws they are better than an archer in the same gear.

But of course you also would need to deal with the overhead of creating and maintaining your assassin. If you are in this to have fun, you might not want to deal with an assassin character.

yes ofc, i think i did say so in previous post that sins can also wear claws altho i also said that altho with the +0.1 base attack they would still be able to out-damage some archers and BMs due to their high crit and innate damage with daggers
ive seen 2.22/2.86 sins pull agro from 4.0/5.0 BMs and archers which kinda shows how broken they are

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. Yes for 250-350m, again, why bother other than to show off? You don't even need to 99 ornaments to 5.0 on demon, thus allowing for more flexibility in those 2 gear slots.
2. When you're sparked your stats are trivial, and it comes down more to your weapon's refines, and your gems. Attack is going to help you way more than a tiny bit of str would. The bow drop off is not significant enough to even consider it really... 'less' anyways. On the plus side you get a higher HP helmet, a nice positive trade off.

Because I'm gonna make the tome, mostly from other tomes I already have, and I can use it on my Sin, BM, Veno, Cleric, etc., etc., etc., and it will be useful. And also because I've had no luck in getting the damn cape yet, so... Meh.

Weapon, yeah... But, let's say I use the same weapon, my unrefined, unsharded Dark flash. I have just enough STR to use it on my Archer. Using sage spark on my Archer, I'm going to be doing a LOT less damage per hit at 1.67 aps than my BM, who has waaaaaaay more STR (minus fist mastery) would, demon sparked, at 1.67, with the same weapon. There's a massive gap in STR values between my BM and my Archer... STR does make a difference. Add in Fist mastery, and you open the gap even more. Blazing arrow narrows it again, though, somewhat...

But then, my BM uses a better fist weapon anyway, than Dark Flash, so whatever. b:chuckle

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you want to pay double for an interval tome, like you suggest here, I certainly am not going to stop you.

I think you missed the point, the point was, sage = retardedly expensive, when you can farm what you need for your archer etc as a demon for much cheaper. My 5.0 was total ~ 170m, not using TT99 ornaments, not using second cast pants, not using a tome. Well worth the investment.

truekossy wrote: »

Go demon without investing much into skills -> Attain cheap 5.0 -> Use cheap 5.0 to farm the more expensive gears and your sage skills -> Obtain expensive 5.0 -> Switch to sage

Far better use of time and resources than
Go sage -> slowly work your way to 5.0 spending many times more than demon who already has it and can afford to blow that kind of coin now -> Have 5.0 with inferior gears (or have spent so much time working on gear instead of APS that the gap between you and the demon has continued to increase) -> Have to catch up to the demon that's already gearing up an alt or whatever because they've had 5.0 for longer and have been able to get a major economical head start on you

Well, in my opinion, for people starting now, wanting to farm bosses for gear, they should not rely on sage archer nor on demon archer. One alternative would be be building up an assassin farmer and having their assassin supply gear.

Another alternative would be to give up on this "farm everything yourself approach" and either supplement your income with merchanting (buying deals and selling to people that do not have your advantages) or supplement your merchanting with occasional farming.

And you can probably think of other options.

But its really not a race, for anyone that might be considering getting 5.0 gear, sage or demon. Or, from another point of view, they have already lost that race: both sages and demons already have that 5.0 gear. (Except maybe on the Archosaur server? I am not sure about that one, but probably even there.)

ANYways, I think you should be paying attention to where you want to be, and how you want to be playing, rather than talking about a stepping stone goal -- like 5aps -- as if that was your reason for your cultivation choice.

truekossy wrote: »

I do agree with your edit. However, you have to consider that cultivation choices are no longer permanent. So as long as you don't make an investment you consider as too large to turn back, your cultivation choice at 89 can be considered as another tool towards your goals in-game (IE: Get a demon sin at 89 with minimal skills and use it to gear up/buy sage books, then switch to sage for PvP once you have the gears and skills needed to continue breezing through PvE)

Mmm.. but isn't cultivation change higher price than the price differential between sage/demon on 5aps gear?

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you have no skills learned, it's just 200 Mirages and the Celestial Schism Mold, which costs 10 Gold. That comes to some 13,000,000 gold.

The two pieces most people would acquire for 5 aps on a Sage would probably be cape and Nirvana leggings, which come to what, 175,000,000+ coins.

I think you have left out the cost (and time) involved doing your cultivation quests, with no skills learned?

(And it's not like a demon would not want those two pieces of gear, so on the other side of the fence we are talking about time shifting the cost rather than avoiding it entirely.)