I hate the "barbs are worthless" debate. Can someone please help?

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  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Ok... *cracks knuckles* time to educate another moron.


    First of all, read this:

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=983472

    Second of all:


    I tank BETTER with 5 aps than I did with pure vit. First of all is aggro. You're a moron if you think that at endgame a barb can tank. Everyone has a +10 rank 8 weapon now and they will rip aggro from a barb faster than charlie sheen snorting a line of coke. Sure you "COULD" have the DDs hold back, but do you REALLY want to spend 3 hours in nirvana because you had to give the barb 10 minutes on each boss to build aggro? I don't tink so.

    Second is the healing. I can tank a nirvana with no cleric easily. With 5 aps Bloodpaint becomes equal in strength to cleric heals. With my +8 nirvana claws at 5 aps I get healed so much, combine that with a constant 20% hp recovery every 15 seconds and 3 seconds of damage immunity to resist hard hitting attacks and I can tank easier than any vit barb.

    Your comment implying a 5 aps barb cannot tank is INCREDIBLY stupid.

    You're over here implying that "oh it's so scary and they might die and bla bla bla herp derp"

    And I say, lrn2play. Tanking is INCREDIBLY easy with 5 aps. With my -int gears in normal form I'm at around 11.3k hp buffed and ya know what? I've tanked almost everything there is to tank. I've tanked every world boss except for harpy. I've tanked every instance. I've done full delta, TT3-1/2/3, nirvana, warsong, lunar, and trophy mode.


    You're clinging to an outdated, archaeic formula that makes no sense anymore. A pure vit barb can't hold aggro, and unless his gears are AMAZING, when it comes to 3-2/3-3 he's just as squishy as everyone else, a pure vit barb can easily get 2 shot by emperor. I tank much better than a pure vit barb. When our cleric is dead or slept or stunned or w/e I can just keep tanking with bloodpaint and a few crab meats while I wait for the cleric to res/get out of stun/whatever

    I don't doubt you can do all those things.

    But if you think I'm gonna drop the MASSIVE amounts of coin 5aps gear and +10 claws require, then you have much more 'disposable income' than I do, my friend.

    R8/R9 *will* grab aggro from me, and yet I'm still wanted in squads because 1) I'm there when the 5aps God bites the carpet, and 2) my awesome buffs, and more awesome debuffs.

    And I can keep tanking with the same crabmeats and BP in tiger form with my r8 wep when the cleric bites it - because I know my class.

    Red

    \demon, 62dex, vit/str build, 18k
    \\still live longer than most, and still damn hard to keep aggro from me
    \\\it all boils down to knowing you char more than the gear you have
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    This debate are fun,

    First off,

    My barb is build the way a barb should be, minimum for HA and fist, the rest vits.

    My decide claw is refine to +6 with garnet, I have about close to 11k hp standing up with buff.

    Now about aggro,

    With a sin in a party,
    If the sin out damage me, most likely he/she can keep aggro constantly and even if ping pong occur it wouldnt matter. Because without a cleric i can tank just as well with bloodpaint with he/she cant.. then it will be big time fail.

    The only way a bm can outdamage is
    either he has too much refine on his weapon or better ones,
    he doesnt HF, or he somehow feel the need to take lots of pots to compete.

    In either case.. he can have it =x
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  • Zaibeast - Archosaur
    Zaibeast - Archosaur Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Bull****.


    Yes, a sin does more damage. I fail to see how that is relevant. A sin also does more damage than a BM. This is nothing new. Sins out damage everything. I feel like I need to say this three times to get it through your thick skull. Sins out damage everything. 4 times just to be sure.


    And really, do you have any proof? Any evidence? I have run instances on a 5 aps barb AND a 5 aps BM. Both using the same weapon. And the damage difference is not noticeable at all. I seriously turned on damage log at the bosses, took SSes and compared the too. There was virtually no difference.


    Dude, dimwit. Wasn't that whole point of this? Btw, if you didn't know....more damage = more aggro IJS! So a sin dealing MORE damage deals MORE aggro meaning THE SIN tanks.

    I have to give proof that a BM deals more damage to an equally geared Barb? What are you stupid? Read my previous posts. Or let me retype it just for BMs

    (1) BMs have fist masteries (If I need to remind you, fist masteries equals more damage whenever using fists, please take note of this b:chuckle)
    (2) Barbs DO NOT have fist masteries
    (3) Barbs have poison fang? Pfft, it doesn't come close to giving enough damage that the fist masteries have
    (4) Don't forget Dragons Bane that BMs have that UPS their critical hit rate for 30 seconds
    (5) Yup, I definitely do need some type of proof. Read the dam skills and tell me again that I need proof to back up that Barbs can do more damage than BMs with equal gear b:bye
  • StudmuffinIX - Archosaur
    StudmuffinIX - Archosaur Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    @ Rawrgh

    dude u have no clue what ur talking about....

    i've done a nirvana with a 5 aps barb with the same gear as me (im 5 aps too and have +10 deicides), while he is pure str build and im build mostly for vit i can still hit 25-30k crits while he can barly hit 10k crits (this is with my demon HF in effect). sooooo yea u have no clue what ur talking about there buddy..... fists were made for BMs, we have fist mastery which gives BMs an extra 75% dmg more (demon fist mastery 60% lvl 10). BMs will always out damage barbs with fists, the only class that can out damage a BM is a sin plain and simple.
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    @ Rawrgh

    dude u have no clue what ur talking about....

    i've done a nirvana with a 5 aps barb with the same gear as me (im 5 aps too and have +10 deicides), while he is pure str build and im build mostly for vit i can still hit 25-30k crits while he can barly hit 10k crits (this is with my demon HF in effect). sooooo yea u have no clue what ur talking about there buddy..... fists were made for BMs, we have fist mastery which gives BMs an extra 75% dmg more (demon fist mastery 60% lvl 10). BMs will always out damage barbs with fists, the only class that can out damage a BM is a sin plain and simple.


    Sin 5aps with same refine dagger will out dps everyone. Period
    Fist BM with same weapon and Barb buff/devour/HF outdamage Barb. Period
    Fist BM without Barb buff/Devour wouldnt outdamage barb.

    Poison buff and SoT more than compensate for the lack of fist mastery.

    Funny thing is, how many sin actually lack the dps for 5aps dagger
    you basically need the same stuff we need plus that rep armor rank 8 to reach 5aps for dagger.

    and how do you build a bm with vit build? bm of 4 path require 3str 2dex per lvl right? maybe you got a really good tome or something if not you arent really Vit build you know.

    Anyway a few runs of nirvana wouldnt count for much. there are a lot of things that affect dps, barb will try to devour more if there are at least 2 other 5dps to bring the boss quicker. Boss random aggro, and move away to other players affect dps as well.
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  • DangerField - Dreamweaver
    DangerField - Dreamweaver Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    @ Rawrgh

    dude u have no clue what ur talking about....

    i've done a nirvana with a 5 aps barb with the same gear as me (im 5 aps too and have +10 deicides), while he is pure str build and im build mostly for vit i can still hit 25-30k crits while he can barly hit 10k crits (this is with my demon HF in effect). sooooo yea u have no clue what ur talking about there buddy..... fists were made for BMs, we have fist mastery which gives BMs an extra 75% dmg more (demon fist mastery 60% lvl 10). BMs will always out damage barbs with fists, the only class that can out damage a BM is a sin plain and simple.

    Are you high or are you actually trying to argue that a bm with the exact same gear and less str will outdamage a barb by a factor 2-3?
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Yeah that was me and here is the post:

    Made 2 comparisons for fist barb and fist bm, now assuming the fist stratagy is hit til demon spark and repeat, the two are very similar. Now the barb has damage from Poison Fang that doesnt show in calc, +483-571 for 5924-6692 damage per hit, a very small difference from the bm'd damage, and more than made up for by the extra 4% crit

    Barb
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f80503abef24cf81
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 28% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 67339.2 (this includes damage from demon poison fang)

    Bladmaster
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8d0ec812e587cd6c
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 24% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 65468.9

    Now keep in mind that this advantage only holds for 60seconds after demon titans buff. The BM will take a very slight damage lead after the crit part of the buff wears off. Aslo, if you buff BM with titans he will do more DPS than you (if you are exact same build/gear).

    Trolls are the biggest impact on the misinformed.
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  • Zaibeast - Archosaur
    Zaibeast - Archosaur Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sin 5aps with same refine dagger will out dps everyone. Period
    Fist BM with same weapon and Barb buff/devour/HF outdamage Barb. Period
    Fist BM without Barb buff/Devour wouldnt outdamage barb.

    Poison buff and SoT more than compensate for the lack of fist mastery.

    Funny thing is, how many sin actually lack the dps for 5aps dagger
    you basically need the same stuff we need plus that rep armor rank 8 to reach 5aps for dagger.

    and how do you build a bm with vit build? bm of 4 path require 3str 2dex per lvl right? maybe you got a really good tome or something if not you arent really Vit build you know.

    Anyway a few runs of nirvana wouldnt count for much. there are a lot of things that affect dps, barb will try to devour more if there are at least 2 other 5dps to bring the boss quicker. Boss random aggro, and move away to other players affect dps as well.

    You're pretty much saying that since a barb has poison fang and SOT, it more than compensates for the lack of the fist mastery. Alright fair enough, BUT BMs still have that skill known as Heavens Flame which still ups the DD potential of BMs. You may argue that HF affects everyone in a squad but so does the strength of titan buff so that throws it out of the equation leaving just poison fang versus fist masteries. Most nirvana squads even without a barb in that squad can still get barb buffs without the barb actually being in that squad (like my barb for example).

    Rank gear is dirt cheap and 95% of sins in each server has rank 8 so that's not even an issue.

    He didn't say he was "purely" a vit build, he was "mostly" a vit build. A difference in the two words. If you were so straight down to the point of a pure vit build, you can basically say pump every single point into vit and nothing else and that equals a vit build lmfao (sarcasm again). From my understanding, vit build would essentially be pump however much str/dext you need to wear your gear and everything else into vit.

    Bleh this overall debate is pointless. Bottom-line, barbs out DDing BMs is basically impossible if their gears are similiar lmfao. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to say. Oh well, continue on with your pointless debates. b:laugh
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    You're pretty much saying that since a barb has poison fang and SOT, it more than compensates for the lack of the fist mastery. Alright fair enough, BUT BMs still have that skill known as Heavens Flame which still ups the DD potential of BMs. You may argue that HF affects everyone in a squad but so does the strength of titan buff so that throws it out of the equation leaving just poison fang versus fist masteries. Most nirvana squads even without a barb in that squad can still get barb buffs without the barb actually being in that squad (like my barb for example).

    Rank gear is dirt cheap and 95% of sins in each server has rank 8 so that's not even an issue.

    He didn't say he was "purely" a vit build, he was "mostly" a vit build. A difference in the two words. If you were so straight down to the point of a pure vit build, you can basically say pump every single point into vit and nothing else and that equals a vit build lmfao (sarcasm again). From my understanding, vit build would essentially be pump however much str/dext you need to wear your gear and everything else into vit.

    Bleh this overall debate is pointless. Bottom-line, barbs out DDing BMs is basically impossible if their gears are similiar lmfao. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to say. Oh well, continue on with your pointless debates. b:laugh

    Exactly why i say you guys dont understand barb talk b:chuckle

    WE bring DEVOUR to the table.. the same way you bring HF, not saying it is better but it is something unique.

    Sin needs rank8 armor in addition to nirvana leggings, tt99 x4 plus cape to reach 5aps on dagger
    dagger has a default slower attack rate then fist by 1.0 if i remember correct.
    So unless a sin is using fist which gimp dmg, the sin will need almost equal gear as 5aps barb
    plus rank 8 armor to reach 5aps. (and they still have the option to go more with tome QQ)


    I have run a nirvana squad with a veno without a bm, and we did fine it doesnt take 1.5hrs you know.

    i mention 3str 2dex as a standard build for bm to lvl.. i am asking how he goes vit build when thats how he build his character (3 str for axe , 2 dex for fist) Unlesss you are telling me he not using fist (not possible since he is fist build) or he not using up to date Axe (which gimp his damage with axe skill not that i mind) or he simply put points extra from gear into vits.. in that case maybe 1 points into vit is call vit build?

    And I am one of those barbs that put all points into vit using only rep gear/ornament/rings up to lvl 60. So ya tell me about being pure again. (please dont tell me i cant hold aggro in FC, been there done that.)

    anyway i have no doubt bm might out damage me in the same squad, but to incite that he will outdamage me 3x more is just o.o

    and to say we are worthless is not something we barbs take lying down. Especially when you guys forget its us that get every other class to level 100.

    Sage or demon Barbs are like brothers in Raging Tide, you mess with us, you can find someone else to pull the cata or do your FC...b:chuckleb:chuckle j/k about the last part. we are nice peeps really.
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  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I'm one of those people who say that Barbs are worthless.

    Why? Because I'm running my characters through midgame right now. Doing BH39, BH51, BH59, and to a lesser extent, BH69, BH79, and BH89.

    In BH39, it's understandable, but most barbs have the most fail gear ever. A level 5x character wearing level 3x gear that was purchased from the Tailor. No sockets, no refine, nothing. Vendor trash. Then they have some cool mold axe, that they probably got the mold for as a drop. It has no shard, and no refine. It's also for level 3x or 4x.

    So, they go kitty form. Great. They run up, and... Auto attack. Maybe use A SKILL, but they auto attack for the most part.

    So, my BM, Mystic, Sin, Archer, etc., waits until the mob is literelly half dead, then attacks twice, and the mob turns, ignores the barb, and starts pounding on me.

    I really don't care anymore, because I've come to expect it. And I built my Sin to tank BH51. Lots of HP, lots of PDef.

    And this is why I've completely stopped playing my Cleric. I've done way too many BH's where a barb runs in, and just starts munching ONE MOB. I stand and watch, and the first heal, and there's 3 mobs on my butt. What am I supposed to do? Tank them with 640 PDef?

    Then we get up into the 60's, and Barbs start looking a little better. But now, they good ones have groups of friends, a preferred cleric, or 'harem', and really, the only PUG clerics I've encountered are the 'hardcore squadwipe FailBarbs'. I KNOW there are good barbs out. I've met some. But doing BH69, it's easier to have a Seeker tank it, or a BM tank it, just because there's a chance you'll get a barb that doesn't have gear good enough to do it. Or like the last BH59 I did with a barb, NO FREAKING ARMOR AT ALL. There was even a Barb in BH69 who had all of his armor go down to 0 durability part way through the run, then tried bumming coins off us. >_>

    And this is why people see barbs as fail. My Sin pulls aggro just auto attacking off GOOD barbs 7-10 levels above her. I can keep that aggro if I spark and spam Wind Shield. And using Rib Strike on Rankar, I can solo him without a cleric on my Sin, and I tanked Rankar on my BM, no Bloodpaint, at level 68, with no heals at all, because our cleric DCed.

    Wanna be a good barb? Be a vit barb until late mid-game, then go APS.

    Wanna not care what people like Rawrgh say and do what you want? Then do it. And don't be a tool like Rawrgh.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I'm one of those people who say that Barbs are worthless.

    But now, they good ones have groups of friends, a preferred cleric, or 'harem', and really, the only PUG clerics I've encountered are the 'hardcore squadwipe FailBarbs'.

    Wow, sound like you have some bad experience as a cleric..
    In the guide for barb, i believe it is mentioned several time that barbs need to aoe when he is in a bunch of mobs,

    if your barb doesn't do it.. tell him to... it's his fault for not doing so, your fault for not telling him and his again if he doesnt listen.

    If your barb is tanking boss, he should have flesh ream at max lvl and max AotB, if he doesnt.. ask him to get it..

    if your barb doesn't do it.. tell him to... it's his fault for not doing so, your fault for not telling him and his again if he doesnt listen.

    Most barb has a perferred cleric, i am quite surprise that you arent one of them seeing how you know all the game mechanic. maybe cuz you didnt speak up and actually teach one of those fail barb and turn them into one of those pro barbs.

    Seekers and bm you meet that can actually tank bh69 must be heavily geared, skilled in genie, sin that know interrupt or your cleric purify is straight on the numbers

    Cause last i remember Polearm deal tons of damage with their debuff and most bm my time get 1 shot.. by polearm after that. You mention ranker but forget about wyvern for BH51?

    even Rawrgh agreed i believe that barb should stick to vit build till 99. b:chuckle
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  • Dagnatic - Sanctuary
    Dagnatic - Sanctuary Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    If you need to know how to tank an FCC, or pull Mobs as a barb.... this video's pretty straight fordward...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4
    Good luck
  • StudmuffinIX - Archosaur
    StudmuffinIX - Archosaur Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Exactly why i say you guys dont understand barb talk b:chuckle

    WE bring DEVOUR to the table.. the same way you bring HF, not saying it is better but it is something unique.

    Sin needs rank8 armor in addition to nirvana leggings, tt99 x4 plus cape to reach 5aps on dagger
    dagger has a default slower attack rate then fist by 1.0 if i remember correct.
    So unless a sin is using fist which gimp dmg, the sin will need almost equal gear as 5aps barb
    plus rank 8 armor to reach 5aps. (and they still have the option to go more with tome QQ)


    I have run a nirvana squad with a veno without a bm, and we did fine it doesnt take 1.5hrs you know.

    i mention 3str 2dex as a standard build for bm to lvl.. i am asking how he goes vit build when thats how he build his character (3 str for axe , 2 dex for fist) Unlesss you are telling
    me he not using fist (not possible since he is fist build) or he not using up to date Axe (which gimp his damage with axe skill not that i mind) or he simply put points extra from gear into vits.. in that case maybe 1 points into vit is call vit build?

    And I am one of those barbs that put all points into vit using only rep gear/ornament/rings up to lvl 60. So ya tell me about being pure again. (please dont tell me i cant hold aggro in FC, been there done that.)

    anyway i have no doubt bm might out damage me in the same squad, but to incite that he will outdamage me 3x more is just o.o

    and to say we are worthless is not something we barbs take lying down. Especially when you guys forget its us that get every other class to level 100.

    Sage or demon Barbs are like brothers in Raging Tide, you mess with us, you can find someone else to pull the cata or do your FC...b:chuckleb:chuckle j/k about the last part. we are nice peeps really.


    *facepalm*
    U are a vit build bm by stating as much dex as u need to wear ur claws/fist, enough to wear ur axes, and the rest on vit. Once u hit a higher level u will figure out that u'll end up with a lot extra str and dex with the 3 str 2 dex per (btw horrible build)b:bye
  • MAClNTOSH - Dreamweaver
    MAClNTOSH - Dreamweaver Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I'm one of those people who say that idiots are worthless.

    Fixed for you, because your entire argument for why barbs are worthless is based off the fact that you have terrible luck finding good ones to tank for you.
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    You're pretty much saying that since a barb has poison fang and SOT, it more than compensates for the lack of the fist mastery. Alright fair enough, BUT BMs still have that skill known as Heavens Flame which still ups the DD potential of BMs. You may argue that HF affects everyone in a squad but so does the strength of titan buff so that throws it out of the equation leaving just poison fang versus fist masteries. Most nirvana squads even without a barb in that squad can still get barb buffs without the barb actually being in that squad (like my barb for example).

    Devour.


    Also demon bestial onslaught.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."
  • Zaibeast - Archosaur
    Zaibeast - Archosaur Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Exactly why i say you guys dont understand barb talk b:chuckle

    WE bring DEVOUR to the table.. the same way you bring HF, not saying it is better but it is something unique.

    Sin needs rank8 armor in addition to nirvana leggings, tt99 x4 plus cape to reach 5aps on dagger
    dagger has a default slower attack rate then fist by 1.0 if i remember correct.
    So unless a sin is using fist which gimp dmg, the sin will need almost equal gear as 5aps barb
    plus rank 8 armor to reach 5aps. (and they still have the option to go more with tome QQ)


    I have run a nirvana squad with a veno without a bm, and we did fine it doesnt take 1.5hrs you know.

    i mention 3str 2dex as a standard build for bm to lvl.. i am asking how he goes vit build when thats how he build his character (3 str for axe , 2 dex for fist) Unlesss you are telling me he not using fist (not possible since he is fist build) or he not using up to date Axe (which gimp his damage with axe skill not that i mind) or he simply put points extra from gear into vits.. in that case maybe 1 points into vit is call vit build?

    And I am one of those barbs that put all points into vit using only rep gear/ornament/rings up to lvl 60. So ya tell me about being pure again. (please dont tell me i cant hold aggro in FC, been there done that.)

    anyway i have no doubt bm might out damage me in the same squad, but to incite that he will outdamage me 3x more is just o.o

    and to say we are worthless is not something we barbs take lying down. Especially when you guys forget its us that get every other class to level 100.

    Sage or demon Barbs are like brothers in Raging Tide, you mess with us, you can find someone else to pull the cata or do your FC...b:chuckleb:chuckle j/k about the last part. we are nice peeps really.

    Some points I would like to point out.

    (1) I'm a barb and I KNOW how to play my class so don't go around telling me I don't skills like devour (50% pdef reduction at lvl 10). Unique? I suppose, BUT there are other skills out there that can also bring pdef down as well but not as high as 50% BUT I would rather have another BM HFing on a boss or another Sin dealing more damage than a barb per second.

    (2) A barb spamming devour every 10 seconds means that they have to be in tiger form and they can't be sparking macrooing on a boss. So that skill is already thrown out the window when you're talking about DD potential.

    (3) We were originally talking about the DD capabilities of a Barb compared to a BM. So, in that sense, BMs still roll Barbs no matter what lmfao.

    (4) Getting a sin to 5 aps. Rank 8 chest which the majority of endgame players can already get, nirvana G13 daggers, and the same intervals that BMs would need to get to 3.33 unsparked.

    (5) I never said Barbs were worthless. Read my other posts and tell me where I said that. Barbs have their purposes in game but in endgame material, they can't tank since they CAN"T hold aggro from other DD classes.

    (6) You don't need 3 str 2 dext to wear fists/claws endgame. You'll wind up with alot more str and dext you will need at lvl 100+. Look into it a bit before you spout out some claims about stating a vit based BM.
  • Zaibeast - Archosaur
    Zaibeast - Archosaur Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I'm one of those people who say that Barbs are worthless.

    Why? Because I'm running my characters through midgame right now. Doing BH39, BH51, BH59, and to a lesser extent, BH69, BH79, and BH89.

    In BH39, it's understandable, but most barbs have the most fail gear ever. A level 5x character wearing level 3x gear that was purchased from the Tailor. No sockets, no refine, nothing. Vendor trash. Then they have some cool mold axe, that they probably got the mold for as a drop. It has no shard, and no refine. It's also for level 3x or 4x.

    So, they go kitty form. Great. They run up, and... Auto attack. Maybe use A SKILL, but they auto attack for the most part.

    So, my BM, Mystic, Sin, Archer, etc., waits until the mob is literelly half dead, then attacks twice, and the mob turns, ignores the barb, and starts pounding on me.

    I really don't care anymore, because I've come to expect it. And I built my Sin to tank BH51. Lots of HP, lots of PDef.

    And this is why I've completely stopped playing my Cleric. I've done way too many BH's where a barb runs in, and just starts munching ONE MOB. I stand and watch, and the first heal, and there's 3 mobs on my butt. What am I supposed to do? Tank them with 640 PDef?

    Then we get up into the 60's, and Barbs start looking a little better. But now, they good ones have groups of friends, a preferred cleric, or 'harem', and really, the only PUG clerics I've encountered are the 'hardcore squadwipe FailBarbs'. I KNOW there are good barbs out. I've met some. But doing BH69, it's easier to have a Seeker tank it, or a BM tank it, just because there's a chance you'll get a barb that doesn't have gear good enough to do it. Or like the last BH59 I did with a barb, NO FREAKING ARMOR AT ALL. There was even a Barb in BH69 who had all of his armor go down to 0 durability part way through the run, then tried bumming coins off us. >_>

    And this is why people see barbs as fail. My Sin pulls aggro just auto attacking off GOOD barbs 7-10 levels above her. I can keep that aggro if I spark and spam Wind Shield. And using Rib Strike on Rankar, I can solo him without a cleric on my Sin, and I tanked Rankar on my BM, no Bloodpaint, at level 68, with no heals at all, because our cleric DCed.

    Wanna be a good barb? Be a vit barb until late mid-game, then go APS.

    Wanna not care what people like Rawrgh say and do what you want? Then do it. And don't be a tool like Rawrgh.

    (1) You generalize about a class way too much. QQ I ran with a bunch of Fail barbs that can't tank properly. QQ I died because this barb can't use Flesh Ream, Roar, alpha male blah blah blah. Alright, there are some fail barbs out there and I've seen them. But I can also point out that I've ran with fail clerics and DDs that always end up squad wiping. So what do I do? Leave squad and never squad with those idiots again. That seems to work out for the most part. And yeah all the good Barbs end up getting a steady squad together with some friends later on in the endgame. This is exactly what I did since I hated taking the time to find randoms to join my squad and find those randoms idiots at playing their class.

    (2) Barbs CANNOT hold aggro off aps with just spamming flesh ream. For example, my barb is a lvl 101 rank 8 with sage flesh ream and devour. I can spam that all I like but there is no way in hell I can hold aggro even from a DD with decent APS.

    (3) Soloing on a Sin is the new playstyle nowadays. The Sin class is just way too OP. Soloing FCs faster than most regular squads in FC is just ****** crazy in itself. I can solo an entire FC up to Holeen within 45 minutes taking exp from the big pulls, heads and the dragoons as well. So a sin soloing Rankar at your level is nothing new to me since i've done it countless of times at that level.
  • IBaMBii - Heavens Tear
    IBaMBii - Heavens Tear Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    aye.. go claw and this debate doesnt matter.
    *proud to be a claw barb* <3
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    because 50% = 75% now?

    the only way a barb should hold aggro on an equaly refined bm (same weapon buffs rings etc) assumeing both are CCing for crit and the bm is CCing DBB is if the bm repeatedly fails at GS procs

    Even the barb that innitaly did the math on clawbarian vs fist bm stated that barbs only out DD bm's self buffed with no CC's taken into account.

    for example lets assume a barb and bm both have exactly 1000 weapon damage takeign rings weapons etc into account and coth have 300 str with all gear on and neither have a jones on base crit for both will be 20% (bm gains 1% from mastery ignoreing barb buff crit due to crit CC on both classes)

    BM: ((1000 x ((300/150)+.75+1.35(.8)+5+.3)) x (5x(1+.21+.15)))(15-.3-.6/18)= (1000x9.13)(6.8))(14.7/18.6) = 49066.39 dps

    Barb: ((1000 x ((300/150)+.5+5+.3)) x (5x(1.186+.2))(14.6/18) = ((1000 x 7.8)(6.93))(14.6/18) = 43842.8 dps

    yup barbs totaly out DD bm's even counting the cast times on bm skills /sarcasm

    that said the damage is close enough that there willl be aggro bounce on the bm's 3 second spark imune

    math was already done, in full, in this thread, why the hell is this arguement still continueing?

    /thread
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • crunchycat
    crunchycat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I just started this barb like a fortnight (or so) ago and have been doing quests and BHs and went for one FF run. I've been partying with sins and bms who were saying that barbs are useless.

    I get it, APS rules all but is a barb that terrible? Besides the horrid repair costs, I think barbs have awesome buffs and skills and can be a real asset if played well. I was just tanking Krixxix just now for my spiritual culti and some BM came up and said that he died a couple of times because his APS was too awesome. ._.

    b:question if your APS was super awesome but caused you to die all the time, isn't that more of a curse than a blessing?

    But yeah, barbs are a dying class so I'm wondering whether people are like all avoiding barbs cause it's lousy. Suddenly I see seekers being tankers and just wanted to know the future of a barb.

    I'm a chick barb so I must say something: WHITE TIGERS ARE HAWT. (purrs)

    Barbs, horrid or not, and why?

    As a PVE or a PVP class, barbs are pure s.hit. As several people have pointed out, you can make a barb significantly better by going the path of interval fists/claws; however, it's very expensive and other classes with equal gear will still outperform you in PVE/PVP.

    My advice is if you want to make a tank for pvp/pve then use a bm, seeker, or sin.
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Math was already done, I agree

    Soloing wise it doesn't matter, because what matter is HP with damage + bloodpaint

    In a group dungeon wise ,

    Zail, let me ask you then. Do you think Claw barb do 3x lesser damage than bm? which is what i am arguing against.

    DD Max capability do not = DD capability (do i have to explain that?)

    like i say sin are overpowered.

    I know bm doesnt need all the 3str 2 dex pass level 100 maybe even less with a good tome.
    but to make it sound as its a big deal in term of DD and survival isnt quite right.

    they can't tank unless they are claw barb and even then they CAN"T hold aggro from same refine/gear sin and bm

    This is the reason why i dont like it when people give misleading post,

    Some 4aps BM came into a nirvana party of mine asking why am i not devouring all the time when i am a 5aps barb when he is holding a +2 weapon vs my +6

    He obviously look at similiar thread and come to the conclusion all barb fail at DD

    Obviously we reform the next party without him and the next one go way faster without him.

    I ask once, i ask again.. fellow barbs do not do yourself a disservice.

    Barb forum is only forum that actually bash our own class, maybe its our barbaric nature.
    Fist Wizard ~ Truely Unique
    Going for
    Build : pwcalc.com/8b326a9b66b300af
    While waiting
    Build : pwcalc.com/c879da9e1aad795c
    HA Melee (Pre99)-> LA Claw (99+)-> LA Claw+Magic (101)
  • StudmuffinIX - Archosaur
    StudmuffinIX - Archosaur Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Math was already done, I agree

    Soloing wise it doesn't matter, because what matter is HP with damage + bloodpaint

    In a group dungeon wise ,

    Zail, let me ask you then. Do you think Claw barb do 3x lesser damage than bm? which is what i am arguing against.

    DD Max capability do not = DD capability (do i have to explain that?)

    like i say sin are overpowered.

    I know bm doesnt need all the 3str 2 dex pass level 100 maybe even less with a good tome.
    but to make it sound as its a big deal in term of DD and survival isnt quite right.

    they can't tank unless they are claw barb and even then they CAN"T hold aggro from same refine/gear sin and bm

    This is the reason why i dont like it when people give misleading post,

    Some 4aps BM came into a nirvana party of mine asking why am i not devouring all the time when i am a 5aps barb when he is holding a +2 weapon vs my +6

    He obviously look at similiar thread and come to the conclusion all barb fail at DD

    Obviously we reform the next party without him and the next one go way faster without him.

    I ask once, i ask again.. fellow barbs do not do yourself a disservice.

    Barb forum is only forum that actually bash our own class, maybe its our barbaric nature.

    i wanted to reply to this post earlier but i facepalmed so hard i knocked myself out b:cry


    are u debating against urself because no one was arguing that or anything pertaining to ur situation... we were talking about a barb vs bm in dps with fist when they have the same gear.... now my tip to u, read others post before posting random idiocy kkthxbye
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Wow, sound like you have some bad experience as a cleric..
    In the guide for barb, i believe it is mentioned several time that barbs need to aoe when he is in a bunch of mobs,

    if your barb doesn't do it.. tell him to... it's his fault for not doing so, your fault for not telling him and his again if he doesnt listen.

    If your barb is tanking boss, he should have flesh ream at max lvl and max AotB, if he doesnt.. ask him to get it..

    if your barb doesn't do it.. tell him to... it's his fault for not doing so, your fault for not telling him and his again if he doesnt listen.

    Most barb has a perferred cleric, i am quite surprise that you arent one of them seeing how you know all the game mechanic. maybe cuz you didnt speak up and actually teach one of those fail barb and turn them into one of those pro barbs.

    Seekers and bm you meet that can actually tank bh69 must be heavily geared, skilled in genie, sin that know interrupt or your cleric purify is straight on the numbers

    Cause last i remember Polearm deal tons of damage with their debuff and most bm my time get 1 shot.. by polearm after that. You mention ranker but forget about wyvern for BH51?

    even Rawrgh agreed i believe that barb should stick to vit build till 99. b:chuckle

    There's a Barb in one of the factions I'm in right now who I've been working with a bit. Suggesting ornaments, gear, shards, etc. He's been getting really good for a vit barb. Died a few times on pulls in FCC... At level 71. Did a successful FCC, no deaths, at level 73. So, I think he's doing pretty good.

    And... I'm playing my barb now, as a little twist. I've got purple/legendary gear until 70, and TT/legendary gear until 80. Might as well use it, and hand it off to my Seeker.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    i wanted to reply to this post earlier but i facepalmed so hard i knocked myself out b:cry


    are u debating against urself because no one was arguing that or anything pertaining to ur situation... we were talking about a barb vs bm in dps with fist when they have the same gear.... now my tip to u, read others post before posting random idiocy kkthxbye

    "barbs are worthless" debate this is what should be discuss.

    Barb vs bm has already been proved the damage probably isnt that large to actually prefer a bm over a barb

    but there is someone mention bm damage is 3x more despite going vit build.

    my tip to you.. dont just read , understand.
    and if you knock yourself out.. please go see a cleric. b:pleased
    is it maintainence already?
    Fist Wizard ~ Truely Unique
    Going for
    Build : pwcalc.com/8b326a9b66b300af
    While waiting
    Build : pwcalc.com/c879da9e1aad795c
    HA Melee (Pre99)-> LA Claw (99+)-> LA Claw+Magic (101)
  • Fistol - Raging Tide
    Fistol - Raging Tide Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    There's a Barb in one of the factions I'm in right now who I've been working with a bit. Suggesting ornaments, gear, shards, etc. He's been getting really good for a vit barb. Died a few times on pulls in FCC... At level 71. Did a successful FCC, no deaths, at level 73. So, I think he's doing pretty good.

    And... I'm playing my barb now, as a little twist. I've got purple/legendary gear until 70, and TT/legendary gear until 80. Might as well use it, and hand it off to my Seeker.

    thats the spirit, pwi would be so much better if everyone help everyone.
    gald you found a barb you can trust.

    If you are a good barb, you will suddenly realise your level sky skyrock after you FC, everyone will be looking to form a party with you.

    Apoc powder are great help in case where your barb is under geared for some reason. At least those can be farmed without coins..
    barbs as a main can be a coin sink.
    Fist Wizard ~ Truely Unique
    Going for
    Build : pwcalc.com/8b326a9b66b300af
    While waiting
    Build : pwcalc.com/c879da9e1aad795c
    HA Melee (Pre99)-> LA Claw (99+)-> LA Claw+Magic (101)
  • HellWariorB - Raging Tide
    HellWariorB - Raging Tide Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    "barbs are worthless" debate this is what should be discuss.

    Barb vs bm has already been proved the damage probably isnt that large to actually prefer a bm over a barb

    but there is someone mention bm damage is 3x more despite going vit build.

    my tip to you.. dont just read , understand.
    and if you knock yourself out.. please go see a cleric. b:pleased
    is it maintainence already?

    100% true b:victory
  • StudmuffinIX - Archosaur
    StudmuffinIX - Archosaur Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    "barbs are worthless" debate this is what should be discuss.

    Barb vs bm has already been proved the damage probably isnt that large to actually prefer a bm over a barb

    but there is someone mention bm damage is 3x more despite going vit build.

    my tip to you.. dont just read , understand.
    and if you knock yourself out.. please go see a cleric. b:pleased
    is it maintainence already?

    Yes I'm glad u read the name of the thread, however if you would of been paying attention u would have noticed that the thread transitioned into who can out DD who? And u pop in saying random ****, so no excuse me If I don't understand ur pety logic....
  • DangerField - Dreamweaver
    DangerField - Dreamweaver Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Stud it seems to me that most ppl in this tread is in agreement that a bm has a slight damage advantage over a barb.
    You are the one arguing that you do 25-30k dmg while a barb cant even do 10. Do I need quote it again as I see you didnt respond? This is quite obviously a lie!
    i've done a nirvana with a 5 aps barb with the same gear as me (im 5 aps too and have +10 deicides), while he is pure str build and im build mostly for vit i can still hit 25-30k crits while he can barly hit 10k crits

    The slight dmg advantage over a barb is not why a bm is wanted in a farming squad. BM bring HF. Barb bring buffs. On my server I see nirv squads asking for barb openers alot. Barb saves you this trouble + the rebuff on the odd dead/dc.
    Yes ppl do like Sin and Bm as their first priority this works out fine as there are many more bms and sins.
  • StudmuffinIX - Archosaur
    StudmuffinIX - Archosaur Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Stud it seems to me that most ppl in this tread is in agreement that a bm has a slight damage advantage over a barb.
    You are the one arguing that you do 25-30k dmg while a barb cant even do 10. Do I need quote it again as I see you didnt respond? This is quite obviously a lie!



    The slight dmg advantage over a barb is not why a bm is wanted in a farming squad. BM bring HF. Barb bring buffs. On my server I see nirv squads asking for barb openers alot. Barb saves you this trouble + the rebuff on the odd dead/dc.
    Yes ppl do like Sin and Bm as their first priority this works out fine as there are many more bms and sins.

    first off i said it was under my demon HF that the damage was taken in, and yes the barb in the squad stated he was hitting 10k crits, while i was doing mid to high 20k crits (some peeked at 30k). and fyi 3 man nirvana squads are whats in right now..... b:bye
  • Congenial - Heavens Tear
    Congenial - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Wow... So many things learnt, my head is spinning. Ignoring those naysayers who just have something against Barbs no matter what arguments are being presented, I got to say that I learnt a lot.

    Being a barb is quite scary, I wonder why I did it, but I love it, and recently, I've been going to FB19 and just trying to play tanking and practising my skills in order to get ready for FCCs and stuff. I think I'm doing pretty okay, considering I've been a caster class in every single MMORPGs that I've played (although it's not a lot).

    But I am wondering, can someone point out a thread about socketing and stuff for a barb? I'm in a dilemma as to whether I should shard with Phy Def shards, or Mag Def shards, or +HP shards. Your help would be awesome! :D

    To everyone who has contributed to this thread. Thank you. Some majorrrrr people:

    @Sevas: Thank you for bashing barbs on Heavens Tear, because that has just made me infinitely more afraid of playing this class. But your honesty about the situation on our server has also made me determined (and a bit stressed) to gear/prepare my barb as best as possible.

    @Fistol: You presented some amazing amazing argument and viewpoints and thank you for the discussion in showing that barbs are USEFUL because that's what I really want to hear. I don't know whether I can be an amazing barb, but I'll try. I'm scared, but I'll try.

    @Rawrgh: I love your claw/fist barb guide, thank you for that. I also agree with what you've shared on this thread! Vit build till 99!

    PS. Yes, if anyone could show me a thread about socketing/refining for a barb 70-90, that would be amazing, thank you. :D
    Barbs played right are like celebrities, you are welcome in every party - Fistol (Raging Tide)
    You're a fantastic barb, and I'd go anywhere with you - Merria (Heavens Tear)

    I'm a chick barb, and I'm proud of it. b:pleased