My own Demon vs. Sage thread, but with a twist sort of:
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zbzkda
Posts: 0 Arc User
I'm approaching that point in my veno-life where I as a man must choose the path that I will take for my life: it's about that time b:chuckle. My aim is to build for PvP and max nuking power. In looking at Demon vs. Sage, the only skills I'm interested in from Sage are Sage Ironwood and Sage Lucky Scarab. I couldn't care less about reducing max HP in PvP...a charm tick after the HP reduction goes away will fix that in seconds, so you just wasted time doing acrobatics in fox form while you could have been nuking.
For Sage Lucky Scarab, an extension of the stun time is something you can't put value on for PvP. All veno mage tree attack skills take 2+ seconds to cast, so the Demon Lucky's 2 second stun is suboptimal.
Based on my analysis so far, Venomancers do not really have any flexible PvP strategy that's immediately obvious. Our self defense buff does not work in open PvP, and our stun skill is quite haggard (unless you go sage, so it becomes a 3 second stun). So you can't for example, try some kind of pro combination of a stun + debuff then nuke, unless you have very good -channeling gear that will allow you to actually be able to make use of the 2 second stun time to cast a debuff. Barring a nix with Pounce, your main strategy is to debuff as quickly as possible, and kill as fast as possible. Pounce should give just enough time to purge, then lucky will just enough time to debuff, then you're on your own to nuke.
I think that the more debuffs you have (Demon Venomous Scarab comes to mind), the better off you are, since you cannot sleep opponents while you channel skills, etc...you only have 2 stuns: Lucky and Pounce. Again, Demon shines here: if you have enough -channeling gear, a 2 second stun becomes enough. A 20% wood debuff is obviously highly critical, and again, with enough -channeling gear, you can nuke really fast, so 6 seconds becomes about 3-4 attacks chained DURING a 20% wood debuff.
And finally...who said you HAVE to buy Demon Ironwood?? If you want the constant assurance of a physical debuff, then leave Ironwood at level 10, and use the 30% phys debuff. Nobody is forcing you to get Demon Ironwood, even if you go demon.
So with all of this considered, I think the conclusion I have arrived at is that: Demon is the better path if you can afford -30% or more channeling. Please discuss, debate, and pick apart my arguments, and let me see how other people would view the same idea. Basically, I'm saying that the only useful things from Sage are Ironwood and Lucky, and you can leave Ironwood at lvl10 and get -channeling gear and then the need for sage completely disappears.
And you gain a lower cooldown on several skills, you get an amp effect on Nova, you get to never have to use pots while grinding again due to Metabolic + Nature's Grace having 3 and half sec cooldowns, you get a beautiful 100% chance to wood debuff, super kiting speed, a six second anti-stun, and a chance to interrupt things like BIDS by using Mo Zun's Taunt to steal the chi before the skill goes off, as well as a super useful Bramble, a longer lasting amp, a lower cooldown on purge...
...You feel me? Discuss ^_^
For Sage Lucky Scarab, an extension of the stun time is something you can't put value on for PvP. All veno mage tree attack skills take 2+ seconds to cast, so the Demon Lucky's 2 second stun is suboptimal.
Based on my analysis so far, Venomancers do not really have any flexible PvP strategy that's immediately obvious. Our self defense buff does not work in open PvP, and our stun skill is quite haggard (unless you go sage, so it becomes a 3 second stun). So you can't for example, try some kind of pro combination of a stun + debuff then nuke, unless you have very good -channeling gear that will allow you to actually be able to make use of the 2 second stun time to cast a debuff. Barring a nix with Pounce, your main strategy is to debuff as quickly as possible, and kill as fast as possible. Pounce should give just enough time to purge, then lucky will just enough time to debuff, then you're on your own to nuke.
I think that the more debuffs you have (Demon Venomous Scarab comes to mind), the better off you are, since you cannot sleep opponents while you channel skills, etc...you only have 2 stuns: Lucky and Pounce. Again, Demon shines here: if you have enough -channeling gear, a 2 second stun becomes enough. A 20% wood debuff is obviously highly critical, and again, with enough -channeling gear, you can nuke really fast, so 6 seconds becomes about 3-4 attacks chained DURING a 20% wood debuff.
And finally...who said you HAVE to buy Demon Ironwood?? If you want the constant assurance of a physical debuff, then leave Ironwood at level 10, and use the 30% phys debuff. Nobody is forcing you to get Demon Ironwood, even if you go demon.
So with all of this considered, I think the conclusion I have arrived at is that: Demon is the better path if you can afford -30% or more channeling. Please discuss, debate, and pick apart my arguments, and let me see how other people would view the same idea. Basically, I'm saying that the only useful things from Sage are Ironwood and Lucky, and you can leave Ironwood at lvl10 and get -channeling gear and then the need for sage completely disappears.
And you gain a lower cooldown on several skills, you get an amp effect on Nova, you get to never have to use pots while grinding again due to Metabolic + Nature's Grace having 3 and half sec cooldowns, you get a beautiful 100% chance to wood debuff, super kiting speed, a six second anti-stun, and a chance to interrupt things like BIDS by using Mo Zun's Taunt to steal the chi before the skill goes off, as well as a super useful Bramble, a longer lasting amp, a lower cooldown on purge...
...You feel me? Discuss ^_^
I seriously wonder: people who don't RPK, if you play the board game "Sorry!" and you roll the dice so that you land on an opponents piece and send it back to the beginning, do you sincerely apologize and ask everyone if you can have a do-over roll so you can give your victim another chance? It's a god damn game..
--LongKnife
--LongKnife
Post edited by zbzkda on
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Comments
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Looks like ur focusing on pvp.
btw only those two skills? I think you should research just a lil bit more before you decide...
Your forgetting
Demon:fox form (speed boost),summer sprint (Anti stun), and ofcourse demon Nova!!!
Sage: Amp (30% attack boost), fox form( higher defense), SAGE PURGE(AOE purge!!!), Venom scarab (easy Chi),Ironwood (guaranteed high physical resis debuff),and the Chi skill(50 chi free every minute).
b:bye0 -
Well you are actually saying that Demon is better than Sage cause of this two skills?
Venomous Scarab
Demon version reduces target's Wood resistance by 30% for 6 seconds. <--Extreme Poison or Tangling Mire on Genie for Sage + Sage Wood Mastery (25% more wood damage on ALL skills)
So not really needed. Extreme Poison is cheap tho, so you can spam it out on Genie, gives you more oppotunity to use other skills.
Lucky Scarab
Demon version reduces cooldown by 2 seconds.
Sage version increases stun duration by one second.
We can argument here so many times as we want, Demon wins here by ONE second. Tho if you check other SAGE skills, you will defently see that this 1 second difference wont make any win/loss (If we go for PvP for TW? Sage purge in TW is a win.).
I never need Pots for HP. for MP veeeerrryy veeerryyy rarely and even if Genies Second Wind+Soul Tra.
Demons fox form = Sage holy path
Demon summer sprint = Sage anti stun genie skill
Demon Nova (needs 2 sparks) wins on damage = Sage Noxious Gas (no sparks req.)+more Damage + Wood Mastery of 25% more damage
Sage amp staks with HF. Wouldnt suggest using here Mire (tho Extreme Poison is fine), cause many other players (BMs most likely) use it already.
You can chose whichever path you like to, there is always some kind of compensiton for other path + Genie.If i m trolling and spamming on forum...then i cant sleep and need a good laugh0 -
ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Sage amp staks with HF. Wouldnt suggest using here Mire (tho Extreme Poison is fine), cause many other players (BMs most likely) use it already.
You can chose whichever path you like to, there is always some kind of compensiton for other path + Genie.
Your argument on amp is getting ridiculously old. Any amp, L10, sage, or demon, will stack with Sin's EP, BM's HF, tangling mire, as well as a multitude of other debuffs. Neither amp is better than the other and this was proven.
Compensation didn't exist when some of us learned to play. You had your class and your culti and that was it. I picked demon mostly because that's what the majority of venos advised. I looked at both sets of skill extensively. Not only that, but I got to shadow some of the best venos on my server (at the time). I am quite biased with my choice as you obviously are with yours. It didn't take much to see that Demon had more advantages than Sage did and Demon still seems like the better choice to me.
Very true, Z, no one said you have to buy Ironwood. Of course, imo, it's better to get it because you will hit harder with it. Sage, Demon or L10 Lucky still has a high chance of stunning and really that's all I've ever needed in duel or TW (I don't have time to PK or I likely would). Even if it only stunned for one second that's more than enough time to interrupt channelling for a skill and get your next skill going.
Other advantages people forget to list about demons: Demon Lending (20% chance for 2 sparks at the cost of one, which means you can spark yourself), Demon Bramble (15mins 75% deflect), Demon Venomous (wood debuff).0 -
Sevas - Heavens Tear wrote: »Other advantages people forget to list about demons: Demon Lending (20% chance for 2 sparks at the cost of one, which means you can spark yourself), Demon Bramble (15mins 75% deflect), Demon Venomous (wood debuff).
Demon Lending Hand on yourself = Sage Master Li (100% 30chi) + Sage Venom (20% to get 30 Chi), or Cloud erruption (100% Chi) All in one Sage has better chances to get Chi
Demon Lending Hand on others = Cloud Erruption, me as Cleric doesnt ever need that. Since lvl89 never had any issues with sparks. Niether the Tanks nowadays (5aps Generation).
Demon Bramble is nice, but noone pays attention to it, cause only ONE usually always tanks.
Demon Venomous = Extreme Poison on Genie + Sage Wood Mastery
As for amp, i was not saying that SAGE only stacks. i actually was underlining that it has 30% debuff and most likely people want to have sage amp than demon bramble or nova.If i m trolling and spamming on forum...then i cant sleep and need a good laugh0 -
ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Demon Lending Hand on yourself = Sage Master Li (100% 30chi) + Sage Venom (20% to get 30 Chi), or Cloud erruption (100% Chi) All in one Sage has better chances to get Chi
Demon Lending Hand on others = Cloud Erruption, me as Cleric doesnt ever need that. Since lvl89 never had any issues with sparks. Niether the Tanks nowadays (5aps Generation).
Demon Bramble is nice, but noone pays attention to it, cause only ONE usually always tanks.
Demon Venomous = Extreme Poison on Genie + Sage Wood Mastery
As for amp, i was not saying that SAGE only stacks. i actually was underlining that it has 30% debuff and most likely people want to have sage amp than demon bramble or nova.
Not really. When people know I have D. Bramble they ask for it. I always bramble the whole squad, excluding the cleric because I know many of the freeeeak out if they get the green tutu. I love having it on my cleric. Besides, with more people going with this aps craze you get to play ping-pong way too much. Better just to buff everyone. They'll all tank at some point. I still have no idea where you get all that **** for Demon Lending v. Sage Lending. Your chi argument is bull. As a whole it doesn't take venos much to make chi, no matter the culti path taken. I can make chi extremely fast with my skills too.0 -
ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Demon Lending Hand on yourself = Sage Master Li (100% 30chi) + Sage Venom (20% to get 30 Chi), or Cloud erruption (100% Chi) All in one Sage has better chances to get Chi
Demon Lending is analogous to Sage Lending. Stop trying to throw other skills in there.
I've never seen Mastier Li's used in combat.
Sage Venomous gives 30 extra chi every 5 or so casts.- Whoopdefreakindoo. As if that 30 chi every 5-10 seconds is worth it (and that assumes a fast cast venomous spam. Which if all you do is spam venomous, something is very very wrong.)
You've left out Demon Crush Vigor, which has a 50% chance for a spark. Chain that with before your amp and you effectively get a spark for dropping down into fox. Hell, I macro'd the two and have that on my hotkey instead of amp. And from experience, it proc's more than 50%.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Demon Lending Hand on others = Cloud Erruption, me as Cleric doesnt ever need that. Since lvl89 never had any issues with sparks. Niether the Tanks nowadays (5aps Generation).
Demon Lending is actually great for those "oh ****" moments when the cleric dies. Cleric pops a scroll and you feed them a spark or two if you're lucky. Since they were dead, their genie doesn't have energy as soon as they jump up so Cloud Eruption becomes useless. Also, some people prefer getting sparked so that they can use other genie skills besides Cloud Eruption as it's pretty damn expensive in the energy department.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Demon Bramble is nice, but noone pays attention to it, cause only ONE usually always tanks.
Funny you say that. I've had numerous people ask me what level my bramble was because they noticed it hitting harder. Regardless, since when has recognition played a factor in what skills are better or not? If a BM is tanking Nirvana and he doesn't notice if he has a hula-hoop or not, does that negate the usefulness of bramble?ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Demon Venomous = Extreme Poison on Genie + Sage Wood Mastery
Wrong. Both Sage and Demon Venomous can be used with Extreme Poison and if you have Demon Wood Mastery, your crit rate is higher which evens out with Sage Wood Mastery.
But with Demon Venomous, you also benefit anyone else that deals wood damage:
- other venos
- Barbs (attacks while under Poison Fang)
- Mystics (lots of skills)
- Archers (Vicious Arrow...I think it's a **** skill, but I've seen people use it)
- anyone attacking with apoth that gives wood damage or wood damage shards (again, kind of stupid to do this, but there are some people who do it.)ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »As for amp, i was not saying that SAGE only stacks. i actually was underlining that it has 30% debuff and most likely people want to have sage amp than demon bramble or nova.
It depends. If you're going into Nirvana, I find that level 10 vs. level 11 amp doesn't make much of a difference. Especially when you consider half of the bosses in there are immune to Amplify Damage. Find me anything in game that is immune to Bramble. Most squads will be happy they have a veno that actually knows they have an amp. The people that are sticklers about it being Sage are a very very small minority. I've never had my Demon Amp get turned down because it's "inferior".
You only use Demon Nova in Nirvana if the BM's HF is on cooldown. And considering how many BMs are normally in squads, that's not a very large window.
If you're running RB's, I'd much prefer Demon Nova/Demon Bramble to Sage Amp. Mutliple targets getting hit with reflect. Multiple targets getting sealed/frozen/amp'd with Nova...
Both paths are balanced. Just pick which one you like better.0 -
My post isnt suppose to critisize Demon Venos, i critizied only the OPs post who called all sage venos noobish.
My examples been only throw to show that sage venos can have same effect with their skills, as demon one.
If D.Venom debuffs, i can get same with extreme poison + wood mastery, same goes for lending hand. Since she took only an example gaining one more spark this way, then i took an example as sage that can get gain same end result with other skills.
Its hypocritical tho, saying in one post that its a very important skill so she uses it on herself then saying in other post that she doesnt need it cause she gets enough chi without it.
I would never use it even on myself as demon, i would rather spark others anyway (cause of long cool down and only 20%).
Again she took only a main example of getting chi, so i compared same effect for sage. thats why i didnt compare lending hand sage and demon, cause the end result counts.
And as for Master Li not getting used in combat...amm fail much, cause i use it for debuffs or nova myself, i dont know about other sage venos and if they use it, i do even in combat (master li, lending hand at rezzed cleric or barb).
For me, i could get same effect as sage veno with genie, as demon veno. same goes probably other way around, but since i solo so many bosses i decided for HP debuff + amp etc. then faster skill casting.
That was for me more important, i m more than sure demon skills like bramble + summer spring&feral rule, but i dont use it on myself cause i m pure AA so my pet tanks and not me, other then this noone ever asked me if i have demon brambe or sage, they didnt care.
Ofcourse everyone has their own preference, i just didnt like the OPs post saying that appearently all Sage Venos are noobish. If Demon Veno would be soooo much better than sage then there would be none at all...but its exactly the opposite, the amount of sage venos is growing on my server.If i m trolling and spamming on forum...then i cant sleep and need a good laugh0 -
ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »My post isnt suppose to critisize Demon Venos, i critizied only the OPs post who called all sage venos noobish.
Fair enough. It seemed to myself and others that you were hating on demons.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »My examples been only throw to show that sage venos can have same effect with their skills, as demon one.
If D.Venom debuffs, i can get same with extreme poison + wood mastery, same goes for lending hand. Since she took only an example gaining one more spark this way, then i took an example as sage that can get gain same end result with other skills.
The thing is, you don't get the same effect. Extreme Poison can be used with either sage or demon; so as demon, you'd get an additional amp. Level 11 Wood Mastery evens out as the extra crit will average with the increase in base damage. But with Demon Venomous, you up every mage skill you cast after it and every wood skill that others use (and there are quite a few). It's not that Sage Venomous isn't useful, but I find the extra amp more useful than a little extra chi here and there.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Its hypocritical tho, saying in one post that its a very important skill so she uses it on herself then saying in other post that she doesnt need it cause she gets enough chi without it.
Fair enough.
From my experience, I use Lending on myself usually when I'm running between bosses but I don't really need to use it in combat.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »I would never use it even on myself as demon, i would rather spark others anyway (cause of long cool down and only 20%).
Both Sage and Demon Lending Hand have a 15 second cooldown...
And 20% is not that far off of 25%, which is the proc rate for Sage.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Again she took only a main example of getting chi, so i compared same effect for sage. thats why i didnt compare lending hand sage and demon, cause the end result counts.
From what I saw, she was tearing apart your use of multiple sage skills in comparison against one demon skill.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »And as for Master Li not getting used in combat...amm fail much, cause i use it for debuffs or nova myself, i dont know about other sage venos and if they use it, i do even in combat (master li, lending hand at rezzed cleric or barb).
Master Li's technique gives you 50 chi, so using it for debuffs doesn't make sense. I can understand using it before or after a fight, but it takes about a second to cast (no times are listed, but you are effectively inactive for a short period). Why not just cast a spell or two and do damage while gaining chi? I wasn't restricting this to venos either. Most classes will punch/cast instead of use Master Li's.
I will say that I've seen people use it right as they get up from being res'd, but in my mind, that's the "before combat" stage.
The only other time I could really see it being used is when a cleric needs to put up BB fast and apoth/genie is on cooldown and there is no veno to spark.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »For me, i could get same effect as sage veno with genie, as demon veno. same goes probably other way around, but since i solo so many bosses i decided for HP debuff + amp etc. then faster skill casting.
That was for me more important, i m sure some demon skills like bramble rule, but i dont use it on myself cause i m pure AA so my pet tanks and not me, other then this noone ever asked me if i have demon brambe or sage, they didnt care.
Fair enough. Sage Soul Degeneration is one of the skills I really envy.
Amp, on the other hand, I find moot if you're solo'ing. Almost nothing is going to be dead in the shorter duration of Sage Amp so it evens out with the slightly weaker but longer Demon Amp.
Again, whether people care about something is a nonfactor when you talk about the usefulness of a skill. The 20 minute duration of Sage Bramble is nice, but I find that Bramble in general gets overwritten so much that I'd rather it be stronger and shorter than longer and weaker.ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »Ofcourse everyone has their own preference, i just didnt like the OPs post saying that appearently all Sage Venos are noobish. If Demon Veno would be soooo much better than sage then there would be none at all...but its exactly the opposite, the amount of sage venos is growing on my server.
I didn't read anything like that from the OP. They stated which Sage skills appealed to them and how to get around them as Demon. They have very particular goals and some of the really good Sage skills don't mesh with those goals.
Some sage skills were overlooked, but I didn't see any name calling.0 -
Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »I didn't read anything like that from the OP. They stated which Sage skills appealed to them and how to get around them as Demon. They have very particular goals and some of the really good Sage skills don't mesh with those goals.
Some sage skills were overlooked, but I didn't see any name calling.
ack nvm, it wasnt OP it was someone else who said it. >.> cant find it tho anymore but it was something like
"all sage venos are noobish blabla you can flame here blabla but thats what i expirienced blabla" maybe they edited it, tho i m pretty sure i read it somewhere.If i m trolling and spamming on forum...then i cant sleep and need a good laugh0 -
Heh heh. When PWE revamped their website, I was unable to login anymore with my preferred browser (Firefox). Probably one of my extensions conflicts with something they did, but I'm too lazy to figure out which one. So I just drop by now and then to read, not post. But you guys have gotten me to load up the site in Chrome to reply. b:chuckle
(And I'm not picking on you Mauntille, your posts just happened to hit most of the topics in discussion.)
When I crunched the numbers, the increased frequency you can triple spark and the additional damage from that more than compensates for the time lost using Master Li's. I can see it being questionable in the middle of PvP, but it's definitely something you want to be doing in PvE (assuming you use sparks). When out of combat in PvP, it's a handy skill too - instant guaranteed half spark for 1 sec.Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »I've never seen Mastier Li's used in combat.
If you've got time to waste after dropping into fox in combat to use Demon Crush Vigor, you've got enough enough time to waste after dropping into fox to use Master Li's. Sounds like the two are statistically equal in that regard, just the Demon version can't be used outside of combat (requires a hostile target) like Master Li's can.You've left out Demon Crush Vigor, which has a 50% chance for a spark. Chain that with before your amp and you effectively get a spark for dropping down into fox. Hell, I macro'd the two and have that on my hotkey instead of amp. And from experience, it proc's more than 50%.
[...]
Master Li's technique gives you 50 chi, so using it for debuffs doesn't make sense. I can understand using it before or after a fight, but it takes about a second to cast (no times are listed, but you are effectively inactive for a short period). Why not just cast a spell or two and do damage while gaining chi? I wasn't restricting this to venos either. Most classes will punch/cast instead of use Master Li's.
Pretty much my thoughts. Demon venomous' debuff is much better for caster-type venos and mystics.Sage Venomous gives 30 extra chi every 5 or so casts.- Whoopdefreakindoo. As if that 30 chi every 5-10 seconds is worth it (and that assumes a fast cast venomous spam. Which if all you do is spam venomous, something is very very wrong.)
Personally, I don't think the 20% proc rate for 2 sparks makes this a compelling argument. It's nice when it happens, but the frequency with which a cleric dies AND they need chi in a hurry AND demon lending hand procs is pretty low.Demon Lending is actually great for those "oh ****" moments when the cleric dies. Cleric pops a scroll and you feed them a spark or two if you're lucky. Since they were dead, their genie doesn't have energy as soon as they jump up so Cloud Eruption becomes useless. Also, some people prefer getting sparked so that they can use other genie skills besides Cloud Eruption as it's pretty damn expensive in the energy department.
The difference between 20% and 25% is not 5%. Sage Lending Hand will on average give you 20% more chi than Demon. That is, Demon LH will give you an extra spark once in every 5 casts. Sage will give you an extra spark once in every 4 casts. It's the price Demon pays for being able to give on average 1.2 sparks every cast to someone else.Both Sage and Demon Lending Hand have a 15 second cooldown...
And 20% is not that far off of 25%, which is the proc rate for Sage.
Demon Bramble I think is pretty obviously superior. The longer duration on Sage is convenient, but doesn't provide any advantage in terms of game mechanics. About the only real advantage I can see from Sage Bramble is that if I'm logging off in the middle of a dungeon crawl, I can cast it on the tanks and they'll have it on longer after I'm gone. That happens about once a month or so. Whoop de doo.Funny you say that. I've had numerous people ask me what level my bramble was because they noticed it hitting harder. Regardless, since when has recognition played a factor in what skills are better or not? If a BM is tanking Nirvana and he doesn't notice if he has a hula-hoop or not, does that negate the usefulness of bramble?
This is something I think a lot of people miss. In PvP, the higher crit rate from Demon more or less evens out the higher damage from Sage. But in PvE, the higher crit rate can lead you to grabbing aggro and dying more often. So plusses and minuses there too.Wrong. Both Sage and Demon Venomous can be used with Extreme Poison and if you have Demon Wood Mastery, your crit rate is higher which evens out with Sage Wood Mastery.
I've wondered whether you're not better off passing those sparks to the BM so they can HF again, rather than using them yourself for Nova. The 5 APS fist builds come pretty close to using all their sparks just to stay triple sparked. Getting an additional 2 sparks every 30 sec on top of that seems rather difficult.You only use Demon Nova in Nirvana if the BM's HF is on cooldown. And considering how many BMs are normally in squads, that's not a very large window.
The usefulness of Sage Soul Degen scales with the number of hp of the target. Against a PvE boss, it's a really big deal, equivalent to several minutes of combat. Against a 50k hp barb, it'd be pretty significant too. But against most 5k-10k hp opponents in PvP, it's probably not worth it.Fair enough. Sage Soul Degeneration is one of the skills I really envy.
I should point out however that an instant 20% reduction in max hp and a 20% amp are functionally the same thing. In fast-moving PvE, I would alternate between Amp and Soul Degen since the cooldown was much longer than the time to kill any one target.
This has been discussed countless times in the past. The two are very close. Demon Amp is better if you're the only veno in the squad. Sage Amp is better if there's another veno to help fill in the gap, or the target dies in less than ~25 sec. The difference between the two over 30 sec is very small though.Amp, on the other hand, I find moot if you're solo'ing. Almost nothing is going to be dead in the shorter duration of Sage Amp so it evens out with the slightly weaker but longer Demon Amp.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »(And I'm not picking on you Mauntille, your posts just happened to hit most of the topics in discussion.)
Nps. Glad to see you posting again, if only a little.
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »When I crunched the numbers, the increased frequency you can triple spark and the additional damage from that more than compensates for the time lost using Master Li's. I can see it being questionable in the middle of PvP, but it's definitely something you want to be doing in PvE (assuming you use sparks). When out of combat in PvP, it's a handy skill too - instant guaranteed half spark for 1 sec.
If you've got time to waste after dropping into fox in combat to use Demon Crush Vigor, you've got enough enough time to waste after dropping into fox to use Master Li's. Sounds like the two are statistically equal in that regard, just the Demon version can't be used outside of combat (requires a hostile target) like Master Li's can.
I guess it would help with triple sparking. I don't have a sage veno, so I was mainly going off what I've seen sage venos do.
My sage char is a sin, so I don't find use for it in the middle of combat, but I do have to admit, that isn't really a fair comparison.
I may undervalue the skill a little, but it's not a go-to for me in the heat of battle.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Personally, I don't think the 20% proc rate for 2 sparks makes this a compelling argument. It's nice when it happens, but the frequency with which a cleric dies AND they need chi in a hurry AND demon lending hand procs is pretty low.
It wasn't meant to be a Demon is Superior to Sage argument. They're about even in my mind. In that particular case, I'd prefer Demon, in others I'd prefer Sage. But this case has actually happened to me a couple of times (I run with a fairly suicidal bunch) and Demon Lending saved us from a wipe more than once.
That said, it's definitely not something to count on and definitely not something to base your culti on.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »I've wondered whether you're not better off passing those sparks to the BM so they can HF again, rather than using them yourself for Nova. The 5 APS fist builds come pretty close to using all their sparks just to stay triple sparked. Getting an additional 2 sparks every 30 sec on top of that seems rather difficult.
It really depends on the number of BMs you run with and with how often they hit HF. If there's only one BM in squad (or sometimes 2), I'll usually spark them after the HF, follow up with Nova when theirs wears off and still have enough by the time they pull out the next HF to red spark it.
On the other hand, if there are 3+ BMs who alternate their HF's, I rotate through them and keep them ready to spark/HF. Although for these runs, we're usually all in vent and they tell me if Lending has given them 2 or not and sometimes Cloud Eruption is used if needed.
If I continually ran out of chi, I'd give Sage Lending the edge, but that hasn't been an issue for me.0 -
oh this old and tired argument. As always, I say, if you wanna be stronger, go sage. If you want to be faster, go demon. This is based on what the skills primarily offer. Either way, whichever you choose, you're powerful in your own right.0
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TBH it all depends on your build and play style to make the path you chose the most viable for you. I went sage after spending hours looking at the skills based on how they would work with my play style. I've never regretted it. Each side can have pluses and minuses. Just depends on which side has more pluses for you.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Heh heh. When PWE revamped their website, I was unable to login anymore with my preferred browser (Firefox). Probably one of my extensions conflicts with something they did, but I'm too lazy to figure out which one. So I just drop by now and then to read, not post. But you guys have gotten me to load up the site in Chrome to reply. b:chuckle
if you're running noscript, you need to temporarily allow javascript from perfectworld.com to log in. once you're logged in, you can revoke temporary permissions and it'll keep working fine.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.0 -
Kay, thanks for all the opinions everyone, and the good chewing out ^_^
My conclusion was to go demon b:cute. So wish me luck, and thanks again b:byeI seriously wonder: people who don't RPK, if you play the board game "Sorry!" and you roll the dice so that you land on an opponents piece and send it back to the beginning, do you sincerely apologize and ask everyone if you can have a do-over roll so you can give your victim another chance? It's a god damn game..
--LongKnife0 -
before i tought sage is for pvp and demon is fo pve but when you get to lvl 100 people want sage veno in squad over a demon 1 because of the more constant debuffs.
my heavy veno is lvl100 and sage fox form is realy good with the extra defence thats putting me next to a bm with physical marrow.0 -
..Those who say demon is stronger than sage cannot prove it, nor can a sage prove that sage is stronger than demon. It just boils down to bias. You can yap yap yap yap yap all day about skill bonuses and criticals and all that jazz but in the end there's really no difference, other than free 50 chi.0
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Why are still people arguing about this?
Both paths have been compared so many times that I almost memorised them lol.
It comes down to playstyle and what advantages you'll give up in order to gain other type of advantages.[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0 -
Veno is one of the few classes imo that has a quite good balance when having to choose cultivation , and that is because both paths just offer good things to the veno , different but same in usefulness.
So , if u canτ decide yet , toss a coin b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
<--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
{That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue0 -
It wouldn't be argued so much if it made a fr'kn difference. Both are great choices!Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0
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Sage/demon doesn't matter. Choosing to play a veno is, on it's own, the best choice one could ever make, duh!
Nuff said b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
DREAMWEAVER:
Myrrmidonna, 8x Trickster b:sin
Eskarinne, 5x Summoner b:cute
It is not the destination that makes the journey worthwhile...0 -
Of course. Only we have fluffy tails
[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0
![http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]](http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
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