Fist archer vs bow

Hellsarcher - Harshlands · April 2011

Alright so heres the thing in nirvana i see ppl asking for 5 aps this and that, but is it really better for a archer to be using fists at lets say 5 aps than a r8 bow? Discuss 5 aps fist archer vs pure dex interval archer. I have tested 5 aps with nirvana claws and 1.25 aps with archer and the 1.25 aps with bow killed rather faster than the 5.00 with nirvana claws. Also since most archers have the base str for the required fists the dmg is noticeably lower on mobs than their usual bows. In my opinion people are just so into the 5 aps thing that they do not see that there are other alternatives that can make it faster. b:scorn

_blood_rain - Sanctuary · April 2011

But what about the perma spark

Jeremied - Sanctuary · April 2011

Eh...<_< From what I've seen you have 3 options. Please note that I'm not an archer expert and expert archers may dislike my claims.

1. Go pure bow. The damage is epic, and the close range bow damage is STILL way more than you'd get with claws, just slower speed. It's harder, or rather slower to build sparks though. The archer I squad with regularly prefers this.

2. Build for claws, with a lower level bow. Being properly built, some claw archers can out damage even BMs because they crit more often. This however severely nerfs your bow damage.

If demon, you can 3 spark pretty much every time it cools down with this build. If sage, using fists with berserk proc and then switching to claws for damage seems like a good strategy for getting demon spark speed and damage. I recommend having a cleric to purify the increased damage debuff that comes with berserk though XD

3. Hybridize. Use bow for damage with skills and crowd control, then when the target gets close switch to claws and punch it to death. The damage for both weapons will be nerfed just because your stats will be stretched thinner <_<

In my opinion still think the classic archers are better.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · April 2011

So, ok, lets say I give you an example level 101 character, with +5 fists, permasparked:

http://pwcalc.com/8e0fb24f3ece6c9c her physical attack is 7647-8851 and she hits five times a second.

Now, let's give that character a +12 rank 9 bow with two drakeflame stones but turn off that perma spark:

http://pwcalc.com/3429d0401da67bf2

now her physical attack is 10248-13817 which is not very close to five times her attack with fists. She gets a damage boost from attack levels, which do not show up in physical attack, and she can sometimes spark, and you asked about rank 8 rather than rank 9, and I left her dexterity low which would help on her physical attack if you changed it.

So... you might want to change things to better match your vision of How Things Should Be.

But my impression is that full rank 9 has an average dps somewhat lower than is possible with fists (especially if you do something like rank 13 or 15 nirvana fists, +12). With a bow you get range and you get survivability (though that range sometimes decreases your survival chances), and if your bow is good enough you can get higher peak dps than with fists, but for average dps on a boss, fists ... they are good?

Edit: 1.25 aps on an archer might mean triple sparked with demon spark and interval gear. And you are right that your peak dps with a bow can be higher than your peak dps with fists or claws. However, your chi generation rate will be significantly lower. If you can figure out how to get your average dps above that of fist or claws? I think you have done a great job (though unless you talk about equivalent refines, you would not be doing a very fair comparison.)

Falcondance - Heavens Tear · April 2011

Hellsarcher - Harshlands wrote: »

Alright so heres the thing in nirvana i see ppl asking for 5 aps this and that, but is it really better for a archer to be using fists at lets say 5 aps than a r8 bow? Discuss 5 aps fist archer vs pure dex interval archer. I have tested 5 aps with nirvana claws and 1.25 aps with archer and the 1.25 aps with bow killed rather faster than the 5.00 with nirvana claws. Also since most archers have the base str for the required fists the dmg is noticeably lower on mobs than their usual bows. In my opinion people are just so into the 5 aps thing that they do not see that there are other alternatives that can make it faster. b:scorn

As Fleuri stated, 5 APS is better for average DPS on a boss, but man, just put on some Bands of Heaven's Jail and do both.

Valirah - Sanctuary · April 2011

Hellsarcher - Harshlands wrote: »

I have tested 5 aps with nirvana claws and 1.25 aps with archer and the 1.25 aps with bow killed rather faster than the 5.00 with nirvana claws. b:scorn

Whatever "test" you ran must have been flawed. Perhaps you were doing it without sparking? If so, that bypasses the major damage boost that a high APS build enables, rendering your conclusion pointless.

TigerLily - Lost City · April 2011

Its not the 5.0 that gives you higher dps, its the perma spark you reach with fists/claws. If you could be perma sparked with a R9 bow it would have higher dps for sure

But until they invent 2 spark chi pots with 10 sec cooldown you're gonna have to use claws.

Also ranged weapons aren't really suitable for Nirvana. Everyone needs to be grouped up in mele range close to boss so you can Domain the seals. You also dont want someone standing in +20 meters range since that makes the boss move when he random aggro.

Can always get rings with strength/maybe a strength tome if you dont wanna change your dex build to much. Or you can just skip going Nirvana in the first place lol. If you have R9 i doubt you need Raptures or Uncannies.

Make a sin or bm if you wanna farm the instance on a daily basis. I really enjoyed when i could stop using my archer for NV, ditch the damn claws and re-stat back to 500+ dex again <.<

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · April 2011

R9 ring + claws is pretty epic though

You do more damage than non-R9 BMs using the same weapon.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide · April 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

R9 ring + claws is pretty epic though You do more damage than non-R9 BMs using the same weapon.

@.@ for real? Never will I be denied for Nirvana again...soon

Quilue - Sanctuary · April 2011

If you're rich, and all the people that you surround yourself with are rich, then you should go pure bow.

If everyone in your squad has epic damage output and perform perfectly timed debuffs and amps, a boss will fall in like 15s. Might as well triple spark with your R9 +12 and do higher damage for those 15s. Permasparking would be redundant is that case.

If you are most often the only epic DD of your squad, might as well go claws.

Valirah - Sanctuary · April 2011

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

If everyone in your squad has epic damage output and perform perfectly timed debuffs and amps, a boss will fall in like 15s. Might as well triple spark with your R9 +12 and do higher damage for those 15s. Permasparking would be redundant is that case.

Um, you gonna be able to recharge your chi in time to triple spark for the next boss?

Quilue - Sanctuary · April 2011

Genie skills and punching NPC. Not every claw user maintains full chi at every boss either, especially if the previous boss died really quickly.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · April 2011

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Genie skills and punching NPC. Not every claw user maintains full chi at every boss either, especially if the previous boss died really quickly.

In FCC, running from one boss to another, I gain 300 chi just from cloud eruption.

properly built genie = spark machine. And I should be able to get 400 chi once I hit 89...

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · April 2011

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Genie skills and punching NPC. Not every claw user maintains full chi at every boss either, especially if the previous boss died really quickly.

Qui you're the only claw user I've seen that struggles with having sparks ready. Remember that mini you died on?

You just need to stop using spark macro so much and think a little ahead -_-

It is really, really easy to manage your chi so you always have 3 sparks ready with claws. If you spark at 4 sparks you are down to 1 spark but are able to get back up to 2 sparks within 4 seconds (at 5.0). From 2 sparks you can use cloud erupt to get to 3 sparks and be ready for the next boss.

The challenge in 5.0 chi management comes from being able to think 4 seconds ahead, this is something you have a lot of problems with :<

truekossy · April 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The challenge in 5.0 chi management comes from being able to think 4 seconds ahead, this is something you have a lot of problems with :<

A large part of this is because Qui is always distracted by thinking of your ****.

Quilue - Sanctuary · April 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Qui you're the only claw user I've seen that struggles with having sparks ready. Remember that mini you died on? You just need to stop using spark macro so much and think a little ahead -_-

It is really, really easy to manage your chi so you always have 3 sparks ready with claws. If you spark at 4 sparks you are down to 1 spark but are able to get back up to 2 sparks within 4 seconds (at 5.0). From 2 sparks you can use cloud erupt to get to 3 sparks and be ready for the next boss.

The challenge in 5.0 chi management comes from being able to think 4 seconds ahead, this is something you have a lot of problems with :<

Ast you suck !
I was lazy with spark management because I expected you to save my *** from it. It all comes down to your **** not being large enough to reach me in time

Shandelzare - Sanctuary · April 2011

Ok, in terms of speed runs, 5aps will win. It doesn't really matter how much more physical attack the archer has wielding a bow. (Not 100% sure of this when it comes to +12 R9s...) The fact remains that the permaspark is just too much for a bow to overcome. A bow will indeed spark in intervals but the the fists provide a constant stream of dmg output that will surpass the bow.

This is different for PvP of course...

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · April 2011

It really shouldn't matter which is better, unless you're one of those people loaded out the *** with +12 ****, use your damn brain on which one is going to let you survive better.

-No other 5.0s in your party with guarenteed higher damage? Y: See 1, N: See 2
1. Can you survive tanking it? Then use claws.
-If the party will survive better tanking it from a range, use bow.
2. If theyre able to manage aggro correctly, use claws

-Will this particular boss kill you at close range? AOE, Melees from stealing aggro, etc
Y: Use bow
N: Use claws

-Is there any benefit from you inducing status effects on this monster? Saving an ally, etc
Y: Use bow
N: Use claws

See, theres situations that warrent each, just use your damn brain as to which are oppurtune moments to use them; it isn't rocket science.

Hellsarcher - Harshlands · April 2011

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

It really shouldn't matter which is better, unless you're one of those people loaded out the *** with +12 ****, use your damn brain on which one is going to let you survive better.

-No other 5.0s in your party with guarenteed higher damage? Y: See 1, N: See 2
1. Can you survive tanking it? Then use claws.
-If the party will survive better tanking it from a range, use bow.
2. If theyre able to manage aggro correctly, use claws

-Will this particular boss kill you at close range? AOE, Melees from stealing aggro, etc
Y: Use bow
N: Use claws

-Is there any benefit from you inducing status effects on this monster? Saving an ally, etc
Y: Use bow
N: Use claws

See, theres situations that warrent each, just use your damn brain as to which are oppurtune moments to use them; it isn't rocket science.

okay what if i take agro from 5.0 archer with bow then what?

Shandelzare - Sanctuary · April 2011

Hellsarcher - Harshlands wrote: »

okay what if i take agro from 5.0 archer with bow then what?

Then why the **** are you still farming?

jimmyimo · April 2011

I wonder if anyone ever thought of the 3s downtime you get from casting spark, every 15 seconds. That is 6 hits with 2APS ranged, assuming you have 33% crit hit, means you'll get atleast 2 crit hits. (10248-13817 * 2) with a spark that would be 2x crit ( at very least 40k, minimum) = 80k dmg, then 4 normal hits (40k minimum), is 120K damage.
Doesn't look much, but this is every 15 seconds, 4 times a minute, that's 580K damage per minute, now calculate that over a 10 minute time worldboss. 5800K damage, if people are not calculating this.. it'd be silly

.

I guess i'll run this test myself some day, would be useful if PWI integrated some damage testing area on immortal, not attacking mobs, that display the average damage dealt per second over a minute or so.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2011

jimmyimo wrote: »

I wonder if anyone ever thought of the 3s downtime you get from casting spark, every 15 seconds. That is 6 hits with 2APS ranged, assuming you have 33% crit hit, means you'll get atleast 2 crit hits. (10248-13817 * 2) with a spark that would be 2x crit ( at very least 40k, minimum) = 80k dmg, then 4 normal hits (40k minimum), is 120K damage.
Doesn't look much, but this is every 15 seconds, 4 times a minute, that's 580K damage per minute, now calculate that over a 10 minute time worldboss. 5800K damage, if people are not calculating this.. it'd be silly .

I guess i'll run this test myself some day, would be useful if PWI integrated some damage testing area on immortal, not attacking mobs, that display the average damage dealt per second over a minute or so.

Thing is, you can't get 2 aps with a bow. 1.05 is the maximum you can have with a -0.1 bow such as Bow of the Demonhunter. Spark that and it's 1.43 aps. Not even close to your assumed 2 aps.

Also, just because you have 33% crit does not mean you'll score 1 crit every 3 hits.

Also, 120,000*4 = 480,000, not 580,000.

And btw, the damage you get from being 5 aps during the timeframe of those 15 seconds is much, much higher than you'd get on a bow.

For example, say you have 1.05 aps and you get that 10k damage per hit. During 18 seconds, you'd get an average of 251,370 damage. My Sage Assassin with a +4 Hook and Thorn and 2.0 aps, would get 410k during the 15 seconds of spark. A 5 aps BM would be looking at 750k++.

jimmyimo · April 2011

It does mean you get 1 crit every 3 hits on average, so it's still relevant.

I'm pretty sure you can get 2 APS ranged someone posted a gear for it not too long ago, and over a time period of let's say 10 minutes, you're not doing anything for 2 minutes due to spark don't forget to calculate that.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2011

jimmyimo wrote: »

It does mean you get 1 crit every 3 hits on average, so it's still relevant.
I'm pretty sure you can get 2 APS ranged someone posted a gear for it not too long ago.

You can NOT get 2 aps ranged. To get 2 aps sparked would mean you'd have 1.43 attack speed without sparking.

For the highest speed, you'd need:
A slingshot with -0.1 interval
Rank 8 armor
Nirvana leggings
TT99 boots + wrists
TT99 HA ornaments
Event cape
Event tome

That gives you a total of -0.55 interval on a 1.4 interval weapon, for a total of 0.85 interval, or 1.18 aps. Spark that and you get 1.54.

As for such slingshots:
Haze Dispeller
Wind and the Clouds
Ancestor's Sorrow
Dragonbird Pursuit: Highfly

For a finisher, here is what I'd consider an extreme version of such as "high-speed" archer. This Archer has an average unsparked DPS of 49,574, which is close to that of a 5 aps character. However, here you see a comparably geared R9 assassin, who happens to have an average DPS of 249,015. This assassin has ~5 times the DPS of that Archer. Even if you sparked that Archer, you'd be looking at 130,225, which is barely half of the DPS of that sin.

Also, why would the 3 seconds of immunity matter while sparking if you're comparing two sparked characters?

It does mean you get 1 crit every 3 hits on average, so it's still relevant.

Well, that average is represented by a multipliers of 1.33 to all damage.

jimmyimo · April 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

You can NOT get 2 aps ranged. To get 2 aps sparked would mean you'd have 1.43 attack speed without sparking.

For the highest speed, you'd need:
A slingshot with -0.1 interval
Rank 8 armor
Nirvana leggings
TT99 boots + wrists
TT99 HA ornaments
Event cape
Event tome

That gives you a total of -0.55 interval on a 1.4 interval weapon, for a total of 0.85 interval, or 1.18 aps. Spark that and you get 1.54.

As for such slingshots:
Haze Dispeller
Wind and the Clouds
Ancestor's Sorrow
Dragonbird Pursuit: Highfly

For a finisher, here is what I'd consider an extreme version of such as "high-speed" archer. This Archer has an average unsparked DPS of 49,574, which is close to that of a 5 aps character. However, here you see a comparably geared R9 assassin, who happens to have an average DPS of 249,015. This assassin has ~5 times the DPS of that Archer. Even if you sparked that Archer, you'd be looking at 130,225, which is barely half of the DPS of that sin.

Also, why would the 3 seconds of immunity matter while sparking if you're comparing two sparked characters?

Well, that average is represented by a multipliers of 1.33 to all damage.

I'm not sure why you keep comparing an archer to an assassin.
The entire point of this topic was the question;

but is it really better for a archer to be using fists at lets say 5 aps than a r8 bow?

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2011

jimmyimo wrote: »

I'm not sure why you keep comparing an archer to an assassin.
The entire point of this topic was the question;

Comes natural to me. If you really want a comparison, here is a full R9 Archer with second cast nirvanas and sports a DPS of 157,830. Do note that it's statted with minimum str for the claw. If it was a minimum dex build instead, it's be a DPS of 176,441 instead.

Change the bow to R9 and the DPS comes to 44,352 unsparked, which doesn't even begin to compare to the claw.

Basically, claws and fists are weak because they have a low base damage. Permasparking fixes this weakness by giving a hefty boost to DPH. So, they become the best weapons in the game as soon as you can permaspark. Well, daggers are still better.

jimmyimo · April 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Comes natural to me. If you really want a comparison, here is a full R9 Archer with second cast nirvanas and sports a DPS of 157,830. Do note that it's statted with minimum str for the claw. If it was a minimum dex build instead, it's be a DPS of 176,441 instead.

Change the bow to R9 and the DPS comes to 44,352 unsparked, which doesn't even begin to compare to the claw.

Then I assume the maker of this topic has it's answer.

TigerLily - Lost City · April 2011

jimmyimo wrote: »

I'm not sure why you keep comparing an archer to an assassin.
The entire point of this topic was the question;

Think his point was that you cant get 2 APS with a bow. But you're still having wet dreams about it b:chuckle

I can go make dream builds for -100% channeling or 5.0 using axes on PWcalc, doesn't mean its possible to get it in the game.

With current available endgame bows (with -0.1 interval) R9/R8/HS/First cast NV and all interval gear possible you reach 1.43 sparked, that will never come close to the DPS you get at 5.0.

Max aps with a ranged weapon would be if you crafted a slingshot with 3 interval stats. Never even seen such a weapon, i doubt it ever existed and you still only reach 1.67 sparked.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2011

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Think his point was that you cant get 2 APS with a bow. But you're still having wet dreams about it b:chuckle

I can go make dream builds for -100% channeling or 5.0 using axes on PWcalc, doesn't mean its possible to get it in the game.

With current available endgame bows (with -0.1 interval) R9/R8/HS/First cast NV and all interval gear possible you reach 1.43 sparked, that will never come close to the DPS you get at 5.0.

Um, it's 1.54 if you get a -0.1 slingshot.

Max aps with a ranged weapon would be if you crafted a slingshot with 3 interval stats. Never even seen such a weapon, i doubt it ever existed and you still only reach 1.67 sparked.

You can't. As you can see here, the -0.1 interval is a Unique Add-on and you can only get 1 of those. And there is no option for -0.05 at all.

Summer_Blush - Heavens Tear · April 2011

Full R9 +12 with 2x +100 attack shards with pwn anything with 5.0 +11

if your not rich enough to cash shop that stick with 5.0

/Thread

Fist archer vs bow

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