A Dying breed?

No, I miss real barbs. If venos are a dying breed I think it is to the Sage Venos. I almost never see a demon one anymore. While I haven't leveled my own Mystic yet, I still think venos will win hands down. Sure we can only use one pet at a time, but we have a wider choice of pets than they do. Pets evolve like we do and so they grow as quickly as we let them and they can be strong or weak in areas like real players. For the longest time I had a snow hare and then got a kowlin, I loved them both and still have them in bag. The hare is a sturdy DD/Tank, not like the rock pets, but still good none the less. In my first faction we used to joke that the kowlin was a four-legged version of the bm.

Get into fights, I used to and still do. I always used to argue with TT or dungeon squads about their choice of DDs until they either blocked me or took me (and they usually took me). You have to be convincing. 1. You are two DDs for the price of one. 2. Your pet likely has very useful debuffs. 3. You have amp and purge which I'm sure no class can yet replace. 4. You have that really sexy green tutu you can put on people for added damage.

Nob at ~83-85 is the earliest I've seen it done. Used to be a herc veno could solo tank TT3-1 at L80 but I think that's near impossible now.

Both of my venos are demon and I'm proud of that . No one takes venos anymore because of the herc thing, and no I'm not talking about herc venos possibly tanking one or 2 bosses a bit better than a glaciar veno, I'm talking about noob venos who cash shop for a herc and don't know how to use it lol.

I had gotten into an FF with my newest demon veno and the squad was basically treating me the same way, though the leader was a guildie so he didn't kick me out. Since we ended up barb-less guess who had to tank every boss there... the veno >_>. You should prove them wrong when they think you're not good or anything like that. Venos can pass chi, can bramble, purge, amp, soul degen, heck even ironwood helps, nova can "stun", not to mention some pets with debuffs. So of course when that FF ended everyone who understimated me as a veno was telling me how amazing I had done.

And about the 69, me and another veno used to tank that on our own with maybe a cleric and an extra DD who knew how the thing actually worked. Pole is basically ping pong between pets and can't be done at that level unless you know how to play your class. Nob can be tanked easier but not without a herc at that level i'm afraid . Pyro is child's play.

Basically APS is making casters less valuable indeed, but those squads who wouldn't take a veno just because they don't go APS are just plain stupid . I might actually hop back on HT to see what this all is about, cause it's really making me go nuts O_O.

the seekers seem to be wanted, for their pulling and debuffs v.v.

The FF squad I was in on my (now demon) veno had 2 seekers, both of them were good at pulling and such, but I could hold aggro on bosses without using pet skills, while the seeker would use the spinning skill and still not take aggro. Basically yeah if you find a squad without a barb but with seeker pullers then it's your lucky day get your pet out and tank those things and you'll make a nice rep for yourself b:chuckle

Liba - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think we all miss real, 30k HP barbs, but hey, what's wrong with a sage veno? (and in my guild, there are 5 lvl 100 venos... 4 are demon). I'm going sage myself, I already have Degen lined up.... it's a sexy skill.

And the fact that our pets evolve with us is also a disadvantage; it is far easier for a pet to slug along (levels wise), particually if you have multi-pets (DD, tank, or a lure that's simply gorgeous) affecting your work. Also, I've had the same talk about our little speedy kitty

And hey, i'm a fiesty veno, with a cleric main-sub. If i didn;t get into fights... hell, i can;t even consider it. But really, most people just ignor it, the 'Pet damage isn;t reduced.... and he can be a second-tank' Means nothing to most people, and i have NO idea why... Not many bosses need to be purged, and as mentioned, the seekers seem to be wanted, for their pulling and debuffs v.v. Even is one would boost our damage beyond compare...


I always do, I'm not QQ'ing so much for myself, as venos in a whole, while on my cleric, i see venos getting kicked, and it's like 'hey, i like my sparks, thanks!' And the kids don't know that lending hand exists....

In my experience Sage Venos have failed to work well when squaded with a Demon veno. The only time it ever worked was when I squaded Plicid. My ironwood is better when it hits and I hate to see it get written over (clerics do this all the time too with their debuffs). My amp is equally good and my deflect is better. I mean I have no problem squading a sagey if they're willing to watch out for the skills I use too. Plicid loved the debuff from demon venomous.

I fail to see how it is a disavantage lol. It's like having two players for one character. You have your veno, which you can control the growth of, and the pet with its presets. Land pets are easy to level up. You can take them in cube to room four. Water pets are unnecessary, just ask a friend to help you with quests. If you have an air pet you really like or a nix, it's good to keep it leveled up and once you know how much it can take you can do some wild stuff with it.

The only class that I could EVER see outshining a veno at pulling would be a sin. That invisibility trick is pretty neat and if they **** up the pull they can disappear to fix it and try again. Of course, the full room and hallway pulls are a different kind of pulling. It is generally safer for a veno to do a single pull over any other class. 1. If you're built right you can stand to take a hit, plus you have Hood to help. 2. The cactus is a great pulling pet (some people like the rock hurling apes instead). It can range attack a boss and usually without agroing something before it gets there. 3. You've a lot of skills working in your favor, chiefly Hood, but demon SS prevents movement debuffs for a short while and demon FF gives you a speed boost.

The biggest problem nowadays is the powerleveling in FF. Reading only does so much for you. Just this last week I had to show/explain how to pull in 69 with my sin. I remember when my friend taught me that when I was in my 40s or 50s with my veno. I used to practice on random mobs outside of dungeons and in FB29. True, purge isn't needed so much, but amp is awesome. No matter which way you swing for culti it will still be a good skill. It stacks with EP and the debuff from HF (which Demon Nova can do too).

There isn't much you can do for those uneducated fools. I am pretty set in my bias towards sage venos and demon barbs because they were relatively rare just a year ago. A strong stubborn streak runs in my family and it takes a lot to sway my opinion, but it can happen. I have met one or two good sage venos and demon barbs, but they are few and far between (like a good cleric). I mean, if you recall people were pretty leery of the TB and EG classes when they first came out, unsure of their performance. It will all just take time for the game to readjust itself. No class can be made completely useless at this point, I hope.

I saw several WCs this weekend calling for venos for Nirvana (on Raging Tide), so hope isn't lost for us.

Venos were always a pure support class and still are. Purge, amp, and ironwood scarab are very important support skills in both PvE and mass PvP. In both cases, sage > demon as the demon path is meant more for 1v1 PvP. Even then, however, venos are the weakest DD class, so venos really should not be trying to act as glass cannons. They aren't good tanks either, because neither a blessed herc nor a heavy armour veno can surpass the tank-ability of a tank-build barb.

I'm a pure support TW veno even though I'm demon - I blame and miss my cute hamburger b:sad
Nothing is scarier in TW than purge! b:chuckle

~Desiree

Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »

Venos were always a pure support class and still are. Purge, amp, and ironwood scarab are very important support skills in both PvE and mass PvP. In both cases, sage > demon as the demon path is meant more for 1v1 PvP. Even then, however, venos are the weakest DD class, so venos really should not be trying to act as glass cannons. They aren't good tanks either, because neither a blessed herc nor a heavy armour veno can surpass the tank-ability of a tank-build barb.

I'm a pure support TW veno even though I'm demon - I blame and miss my cute hamburger b:sad
Nothing is scarier in TW than purge! b:chuckle

~Desiree

i tend to disagree , i have played veno in other server at high lvl (97 ) , and i can pretty much say we are not weak at all. Our dmg is really high , it is just the other magic classes that have higher dmg and this is because of their skills . Venos arent weak , other classes have more firepower , this doenst mean we cant 2 shot things.

Also , demon path is pretty good for PVE too , demon Nova has an amp effect useful for AoE grind (especially at VotS) , demon amp lasts longer (can be a useful alternative to boss fights for more constant dmg in favour of less time of spike dmg) , Demon venomous has an wood debuff , again useful for boss as well , and demon HP/MP skills have less cooldown = less pots. Veno is one of the most balanced class when it comes to choose a cultivation. it just comes to what skills the player prefers to use , and for what aim. ( ill go sage but this is because of a upgraded debuff from ironwood , amplify , soul degenneration nox more dmg and lucky +1 stun duration, Ill certainly miss Demon venomus bramble and ironwood)

HA veno and herc venos dont aim to replace a barb , they are good when there is no barb around (common with all the APS craze) or when the barb doesnt feel like paying a 100k repair fee. but who ****ing cares , it is the 5.0 Bloodpaint sins or BMs who tank these days.

Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »

Agreed. I never said venos are the best at fulfilling that role. Even the amp effect of Demon Nova isn't as good as a lvl 10 BM Heaven's Flame (which with a fist BM, can be cast every cooldown). I am just pointing out that they can add on to the damage.

Got the impression that veno was being over valued. L10HF only lasts 6 secs, Amp 20s. There's really no easy way to compare them. AoE is faster for clearing most instances, but it's not what's generally practiced. Timing spike damage with HF would likewise be nice but isn't what's generally practiced.

Yes, pure DD venos can be strong, but never as strong as a pure DD wizard.

It's not a straight on comparison. Veno ch/casts faster, has more patk options, moves faster, etc. Wiz's commonly sacrifice DD to survive RB. In squads: they often have to wait for the tank to atk. Wiz may be nice for PvP, but my wiz is less than half as valuable as my veno for most things PvE.

A wizards' BIDS will always do more damage than a Nova and probably so much damage that the amp effect will not be necessary (due to 1-shotting all the targets).

But follow that by the secondary AoE: Noxious pwns Hailstorm. There's also Fox Myriad Rainbow and Malefic Crush.

An undine'd Gush will always do more damage than a demon'd Venomous Scarab.

Undine does how much dmg on it's own? -Not sure it's worth the MP drain if you're the only wiz in the squad!

My argument is that if you wish to play a pure DD role, a wizard will be better.

Wiz sucks for 1-1 DD and AoE. Please explain how and why they're better than any other class at anything at all.

If you want to play a pure tank role, a barb is better.

Pure tank Barb has niche usefulness such as Harpy Wraith. -Hardly worth building for.

I agree with the OP in the sense that there isn't really specific niche that venos fulfil these days except purge.

We are DDs. Not the best 1-1, or AoE, but a good mix of both.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not disagreeing with you. I think venos are pretty useless these days.

The majority of venos I come across should just roll over and die. Most are a waste of squad space. -Much of that has to do with misinformation here on this very forum that overplays their value as a purger, encourages vit builds, etc. We can be very dynamic DDs.

If I had the time to reroll a new class, I would probably either reroll a pure stunlocking BM or a pure support cleric because they fulfil roles that can't easily be replaced by other classes

~Desiree

At end game: Clerics aren't needed for anything, and BMs don't compare to Sin DD. I think the cleric class is frickin' awesome, but sin > bm.

LongWushi ( hiya Wushi *waves*) pointed that if there's multiple venos in a squad (especially a sage/demon combo) there's issues. Yeah, I've seen it too. I'm sage never had an issue working with Demon venos. Point is you have to know what skills the other path brings and then work it out. The demon veno I worked with the longest...if her ironwood didn't proc then mine went off. No point in her amping I covered all the amping. As for the Bramble...we let the tank decide which they preferred depending on the type of run we were doing.

If people don't know what the other path brings to the table then it's just screwed up.

I've also given luring lessons. It's not just venos that are getting screwed over by the FF power leveling it's every single class. Anyone can come in and power level a char. The only ones I've seen that do it and do it affectively are the multi-class players that have been playing for ages. The newbs just suck plain and simple. They can have all the money in the world get rank 9 but if they don't know how to play their char they have a fabulously geared char that completely blows.

You know it's pretty sad state of affairs when a veno shoots a cleric in spark after they put up BB....and the response you get is, "OMG you know how to spark...a veno that actually knows. TY TY" That's usually followed by...you must be an older player or someone taught by one.

Yeah....the newb FF players are basically **** all chars over.

Now that I've played cleric in FF, I don't see the big deal about getting sparks from veno. I think it has to do with chars that never played veno and think their sparks are meant for them. IH works fine where most clerics BB. BB wastes MP pots and sparks when over used. WTH is wrong with letting veno use Nova?

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Can we also add barbs in this. I do respect the need for sparks at a pull ( for invoke) but chi for Flesh ream ??? ( i have encountered this). I mean , cant they just sustain an ok chi pool along with bestial rage ( chi building skill).

I know im not at a lvl to speak for things as FF TT 3-x or Nirvana and RB delta , but i do much prefer to give my sparks to BMs for HF ( if they dont use claws for chi) or use them for Nova / 2x spark.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to hold my tongue in FF after watching Veno team mates without asking, automatically pass chi on to the Cleric when clearly not needed such as when we're about to fight an aoeing boss such as Asoteric Runewolf (no BB possible). And here I am frantically trying to gain chi for HF via alter marrowing before the Sins' in squad demon spark... all the while watching Veno's "helping hand" skill go to waste.

But I guess many venos have been "brought up" in FF to believe that the Cleric must be first priority no matter what and get snippy or ignore you when told otherwise so I just don't bother. b:surrender

tweakz wrote: »

stuff

My main concern and how I judge classes is mostly for mass PvP and TW where I see wizards and clerics playing very important, difficult-to-substitute roles. PvE-wise, I can't say that I PvE enough to fairly judge any class to be honest. To my guildies, I'm known for falling asleep in Nirvana b:chuckle

_Morigan_ - Harshlands wrote: »

Its so funny beating lvl101 r8 nix venos in duell, without using a pet myself b:laugh
They feel ashamed when i beat em without takin a single hit myself and their "pro" buddies stand aside b:laughb:laugh

lol duels. Whether or not a veno has 8jun or even a nix has nothing to do with their survivability, especially if they're stunlocked. Its like saying that you're able to 1-shot a sin with a 9jun weapon. Whether their wearing 9jun daggers or HH60 daggers makes no difference.

~Desiree

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I can't tell you how many times I've had to hold my tongue in FF after watching Veno team mates without asking, automatically pass chi on to the Cleric when clearly not needed such as when we're about to fight an aoeing boss such as Asoteric Runewolf (no BB possible). And here I am frantically trying to gain chi for HF via alter marrowing before the Sins' in squad demon spark... all the while watching Veno's "helping hand" skill go to waste.

But I guess many venos have been "brought up" in FF to believe that the Cleric must be first priority no matter what and get snippy or ignore you when told otherwise so I just don't bother. b:surrender

I'd been running FF for quite some time before someone explained what HF was. Before that I just figured it was just another toon thinking they deserved the chi more than me.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Can we also add barbs in this. I do respect the need for sparks at a pull ( for invoke) but chi for Flesh ream ??? ( i have encountered this). I mean , cant they just sustain an ok chi pool along with bestial rage ( chi building skill).

I know im not at a lvl to speak for things as FF TT 3-x or Nirvana and RB delta , but i do much prefer to give my sparks to BMs for HF ( if they dont use claws for chi) or use them for Nova / 2x spark.

If they're paying attention, then yes, Bestial Rage will sustain the chi pool decently. They just need to make sure they activate it when they're pulling.

What really used to irk me was in my early 80s when I was running FF's with barbs and clerics and I'd spark the cleric right after BB went up and then the squad would have to sit around before the next pull because the cleric and barb both wanted sparks and no one would even dual each other to get chi.

tweakz wrote: »

Now that I've played cleric in FF, I don't see the big deal about getting sparks from veno. I think it has to do with chars that never played veno and think their sparks are meant for them. IH works fine where most clerics BB. BB wastes MP pots and sparks when over used. WTH is wrong with letting veno use Nova?

TBH, it really depends on the squad and how easily the tank can keep aggro. You can get a hot shot or two in there that will hit mobs early or spark/aoe before aggro is established or w/e and without BB up, things can go South pretty quickly. On the other hand, I've cleric'd full squads before without having to put up BB even once (excluding the last boss).

Although on the MP issue- BB becomes cheaper once you get the level 11 versions of things like IH.

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Then you get a PM: YOUR APS SUCKS.

Don't feel bad about hearing that. My 2.22 sin has been rejected from squads for not having enough APS. The same people have then begged me to come when they find out that I have both sage Bloodpaint and Subsea.

The main problem with APS, -int in particular, is that it's easily measurable. With no other information other than how much -int you have, the higher the -int is, the "better" someone may be, or at least less likely to be a complete fail. (It's pretty hard to mess up spark & auto-attack.)

The skill of a player is unmeasurable by anything other than experience with them and their reputation. How many times have we said on these forums that other venos are complete ****? Noobism and idiocracy aren't class specific. If you were a cleric/aps-toon, and you needed to fill a squad and were given either a 4.0 BM or a veno/wiz/psy/<insert class> who would you pick? 90% of the people would pick the -int toon simply because of less likelihood of failure. No, it's not fair, and it's not right; but 9 times out of 10, it's the safer gamble.