Does thicket hit more than BIDS?

Kisame_H - Sanctuary
Kisame_H - Sanctuary Posts: 12 Arc User
edited May 2011 in Mystic
Harro der. I saw the description of this skill, and wtf x12 dmg :O Will it hit more than the bids?b:shocked And i wonder if their other skills hit more or less than the other wiz basic skills(gush, pyro, sandstorm etc)
Post edited by Kisame_H - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Caterpie - Dreamweaver
    Caterpie - Dreamweaver Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I think BIDS will hit a little higher, since it's affected by base magic attack (That really pretty number you see when you go into your character info screen), while Thicket isn't.

    Though on [?] mobs/bosses, Thicket will likely do way more, since it's counted as a plant summon, and therefore doesn't take the damage reduction (like a veno pet).

    As for our skills versus theirs, Natures vengeance is weaker than the starter skills for wiz. Gale Force and Bramble Tornado are stronger than Pyrogram and Gush, but either equal to or slightly weaker/stronger than Stone Rain. Absorb Soul is closest to Divine Pyrogram to mobs, and between Gush and Stone Rain in PvP
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  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Thicket hits higher at the lower lvls. But 100+, there's no comparison. BIDS hits waaay harder. In addition to it's 30-40% chance to crit for double damage (thicket never crits), Wizards get the equivalent of 12x weapon damage just from base magic attck + weapon damage alone, plus an extra 20-30% from undine strike, as well as the ridiculous 14000 static damage added on. In addition they get full benefit from attack levels, while thicket gets around 50% at lvl 10 (no info on sage.demon thicket attk lvls).

    As the game goes on and weapon damage gets higher, base magic damage gets more and more bonuses. Eventually their base magic + weapon damage will be 13x or more. Thicket will always just be 12x weapon damage. Wizards are still the kings of the one-shot.

    Thicket will be used mainly for it's incredible seal + paralyze in pvp, and 100% damage to ?? mobs in pve.
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  • DaichiOni - Dreamweaver
    DaichiOni - Dreamweaver Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »
    Thicket hits higher at the lower lvls. But 100+, there's no comparison. BIDS hits waaay harder. In addition to it's 30-40% chance to crit for double damage (thicket never crits), Wizards get the equivalent of 12x weapon damage just from base magic attck + weapon damage alone, plus an extra 20-30% from undine strike, as well as the ridiculous 14000 static damage added on. In addition they get full benefit from attack levels, while thicket gets around 50% at lvl 10 (no info on sage.demon thicket attk lvls).

    As the game goes on and weapon damage gets higher, base magic damage gets more and more bonuses. Eventually their base magic + weapon damage will be 13x or more. Thicket will always just be 12x weapon damage. Wizards are still the kings of the one-shot.

    Thicket will be used mainly for it's incredible seal + paralyze in pvp, and 100% damage to ?? mobs in pve.

    I think for maximum thicket damage, you would need around 2k weapon damage.
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  • Maithal - Harshlands
    Maithal - Harshlands Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Thicket Demon vs BIDs Sage
    Thicket

    Range: 27m
    Mp: 935
    Channel: 2.0 sec
    Cast: 1.5 sec
    Cooldown: 30.0 sec

    Attack target with dangerous plants, deal 12x of weapon damage plus 7000 wood damage. Has chance to seal, paralzye target.
    Cost 2 spark

    Sage: Additional damage increase 1500
    Demon: 25% to increase target's damage recieve for 9 sec

    R9 sets Wizard and Mystic +10 Weapon, G11 stones, rank rings
    Thicket Damage 41200
    BIDs Damage 43345
    Differance 2145

    (just used Wizard set) Tempest Damage 40230

    R9 +12 weapon, G11 stones, rank rings
    Thicket Damage 46672
    BIDs Damage 47685
    Differance 1013

    (used Wizard R9 set) Tempest Damage 44174

    R8 weapon +10, G11 stones, rank and luner rings
    Thicket Damage 35788
    BIDs Damage 42650
    Differance 6862

    (used Wizard R8 set minus the 130 attack on weapon) Tempest 39076
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Maithal your calc seem slightly off. Here's what I got.

    +12 R9, Ring of trauma, Lunar 95 ring, 2 icebourne stones, 2900 total weapon damage, average 18950 base magic attack.

    Sage BIDS

    (18950) + (5*2900)+13955 = 47405, +90 attack levels = 90069.5

    average crit chance: 30-40%

    Thicket lvl 11

    (12*2900) + (7000) = 41800, +?? attack levels = ?? (undetermined)

    average crit chance: 0%

    Difference: 5605, BIDS does ~14% more damage, not factoring in the chance to crit.

    Difference after undine strike will be greater.

    Look at this, however.

    Total BIDS cast time: 4 s channel + 1.8 cast = 5.8 + 80% slow (mostly useless)

    Total Thicket cast time: 2 s channel + 1.5 cast = 3.5 + aoe silence and 50% paralyze for 6 sec (killer)


    Edit: Are we beating the **** out of archer forums or what? :p
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  • Asthariel - Dreamweaver
    Asthariel - Dreamweaver Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'm terrible at maths, but I read your posts and from what I understood, even if Thicket can't match the so famous devastating BIDS, it's quite the 59 skill that comes the closest to its damage, if we leave apart the crits. So what I get from that is: Mystics can't match Wizzies, but still we come the closest after them, base damage-wise. (without crits again, cause I have a lvl 101 Cleric and I can tell you Tempest is totally scary if you crit with it)
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  • Maithal - Harshlands
    Maithal - Harshlands Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Mystic R9 weapon does 3356 max damage, 2370-2703 base at +12, 2 G12's are 2*100, ring of trauma and general's badge are 210 and 125 and the Mystic R9 weapon does +118 max magic damage so (2703+100+100+210+125+118= 3356) (3356*12)+7000 = 47272 which is only 133 lower then your BIDs.

    It is true it does not crit and the attack level adds are unknown. Also 90 attack levels is not 90% extra damage attack levels have diminishing returns.

    The Archer fourms will have nothing on the Mystics once people start working out if Absorb Soul and triple spark work together
  • Asthariel - Dreamweaver
    Asthariel - Dreamweaver Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Maithal - Harshlands wrote: »
    Mystic R9 weapon does 3356 max damage, 2370-2703 base at +12, 2 G12's are 2*100, ring of trauma and general's badge are 210 and 125 and the Mystic R9 weapon does +118 max magic damage so (2703+100+100+210+125+118= 3356) (3356*12)+7000 = 47272 which is only 133 lower then your BIDs.

    It is true it does not crit and the attack level adds are unknown. Also 90 attack levels is not 90% extra damage attack levels have diminishing returns.

    The Archer fourms will have nothing on the Mystics once people start working out if Absorb Soul and triple spark work together

    The benefits plants, Thicket included, take from attak lvls isn't unknown. A thread had been made, cause there was a rumor saying plants don't take any advantage off attack lvls. But to check this out, I had made tests on a same type of mob with and without my Jone's Blessing, and we calculated the difference. The conclusion is that my Thicket does roughly 13% more damage with my Blessing than without it. So we could say that plant summons basically benefit from half your attack lvls.

    And the fact that plants, and Thicket included, don't crit, is true and verified.
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  • RouxLouka - Dreamweaver
    RouxLouka - Dreamweaver Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Warsoul glaive has the highest magic weapon damage. It's better to compare with it than rank 9s.
    /quit.

    </3 All packs/Awful community.
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Maithal - Harshlands wrote: »
    Mystic R9 weapon does 3356 max damage, 2370-2703 base at +12, 2 G12's are 2*100, ring of trauma and general's badge are 210 and 125 and the Mystic R9 weapon does +118 max magic damage so (2703+100+100+210+125+118= 3356) (3356*12)+7000 = 47272 which is only 133 lower then your BIDs.

    It is true it does not crit and the attack level adds are unknown. Also 90 attack levels is not 90% extra damage attack levels have diminishing returns.

    The Archer fourms will have nothing on the Mystics once people start working out if Absorb Soul and triple spark work together

    Ok, I did not know that thicket always took max weapon damage. So it pans out to be not as bad as it looks.

    Attack levels work like this: For every attack level you have over 0%, minus the defense level, you do 1% more damage. Sure going from 20 attack levels to 40 attacks levels is not a 20% increase in damage, but it DOES result in 40% increase in *base* damage. So if base is 2000, with 20 attk lvls its 2400. With 40 attk lvls, its 2800. So adding 20 attk lvls gives around 17% more damage. BUT it is still 40% more damage when you take the base 2000 damage.

    It has "diminishing returns" in the same way that going from 40% crit to 50% crit has diminishing returns compared to 1% crit and 11% crit.
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  • Daltia - Sanctuary
    Daltia - Sanctuary Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    crit doesn't have diminishing returns, its a hard %

    diminishing returns is when you see a lesser effect for the same effort.
    like increasing PDef, you'll still improve your defense, but every increasing point of PDef is worth less and less. (these are not actual numbers, just illustrative) like PDef at 100 = 100 actual defense, PDef at 101 = 100.999, etc. each successive value is lower. which doesn't mean much until you hit the "soft cap" at which point diminishing returns exceed any practical value of adding more.

    crit rate doesn't work like that. 1% is still 1%, at 10 or at 50....granted it is harder to fit more, but 1% is still 1% value.
  • Sereneai - Dreamweaver
    Sereneai - Dreamweaver Posts: 351 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Daltia - Sanctuary wrote: »
    crit doesn't have diminishing returns, its a hard %

    diminishing returns is when you see a lesser effect for the same effort.
    [snip]
    crit rate doesn't work like that. 1% is still 1%, at 10 or at 50....granted it is harder to fit more, but 1% is still 1% value.

    what i think he was trying to say, is that each level you add has less effective gain than others.

    1% crit to 2% has doubled your chance to crit
    10% to 11%....not so much, we have only gained chances by 10%, rather than 50.

    as far as i can tell, that's what he meant b:surrender

    but he is correct about the formula for attack bonus,

    Damage= [attack damage]x(([attack level]-[defense level])/100)
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    Sereneai: b:sin why don't you come find out.
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  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Daltia - Sanctuary wrote: »
    crit doesn't have diminishing returns, its a hard %

    diminishing returns is when you see a lesser effect for the same effort.
    like increasing PDef, you'll still improve your defense, but every increasing point of PDef is worth less and less. (these are not actual numbers, just illustrative) like PDef at 100 = 100 actual defense, PDef at 101 = 100.999, etc. each successive value is lower. which doesn't mean much until you hit the "soft cap" at which point diminishing returns exceed any practical value of adding more.

    crit rate doesn't work like that. 1% is still 1%, at 10 or at 50....granted it is harder to fit more, but 1% is still 1% value.

    Maithal said that attk levels had diminishing returns. I said yes, technically, if you look at it a certain way, each attack level you add as less returns than the first. Crit works the same way. But it's not "true" diminishing returns like most people would look at it.

    Armor is just the opposite of the above...going from 90% p. def reduction to 91% p. def reduction is a 10% reduction in damage received, so it is for all purposes equivalent to going from 0 armor to 10% armor reduction. In other words the more p. def have, the more adding more p. def % will do. So in order to keep the game balanced they have to give diminishing returns to armor %'age - wise.
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  • BottleNeck - Heavens Tear
    BottleNeck - Heavens Tear Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    this thread has been created more than a thousand times.... yes. it does, but only if your weapon does more than 1k base damage. Unlike BIDS, this does damage in 5-6 discrete packets, not 1 giant hail mary. so even though you see smaller numbers popping up, it adds up to more damage in total. This is disregarding the fact that wizards have more enchants, etc. etc. sparks, whatever. This value only is for pure damage, with no prerequisite skills etc.
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    BottleNeck - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    this thread has been created more than a thousand times.... yes. it does, but only if your weapon does more than 1k base damage. Unlike BIDS, this does damage in 5-6 discrete packets, not 1 giant hail mary. so even though you see smaller numbers popping up, it adds up to more damage in total. This is disregarding the fact that wizards have more enchants, etc. etc. sparks, whatever. This value only is for pure damage, with no prerequisite skills etc.

    Can you put up some numbers? All of my calculations and tests contradict your statement.
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  • Mugler - Lost City
    Mugler - Lost City Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Don't forget double BIDS damage for crit. So damage should be similar. But at lower level Thicket it's stronger. I had wizard. I see thicket deal more damage.
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Mugler - Lost City wrote: »
    Don't forget double BIDS damage for crit. So damage should be similar. But at lower level Thicket it's stronger. I had wizard. I see thicket deal more damage.

    Most of the damage from Thicket is the 12x weapon damage. So yeah it should hit for more at low lvls. Once you refine your weapons and get more magic, base magic attack starts to shoot way up, and then add 90 attack levels to that and you can get astronomical numbers.

    I was one-shot in TW by BIDS for 11000 yesterday. This was with over 15000 water resist and 10025 hp. And this happened MORE than once. R9 wizards are just sick. Thicket in that same instance, would have done more like 4000-5000 damage.
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  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »
    Most of the damage from Thicket is the 12x weapon damage. So yeah it should hit for more at low lvls. Once you refine your weapons and get more magic, base magic attack starts to shoot way up, and then add 90 attack levels to that and you can get astronomical numbers.

    I was one-shot in TW by BIDS for 11000 yesterday. This was with over 15000 water resist and 10025 hp. And this happened MORE than once. R9 wizards are just sick. Thicket in that same instance, would have done more like 4000-5000 damage.

    11k crit = 5500 = 500 more damage than your average ish thicket?
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    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
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