Sin Sage VS Demon

_Auryon_ - Archosaur · March 2011

I know this might not be only topic where people ask bout sage or demon , but i wanted to see other people opinion on what a sin should have . I wanna PVE yet i want lots of dmg , so i was wondering what people would think is the best way for me to get what i want . Sage or Demon path? thanks in advantageb:thanksb:thanksb:thanksb:thanks

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · March 2011

Sage is more expensive.

Demon is not-as-expensive.

That's the short version of it. I'm a demon sin, and there's a lot of debate between which is better, but the truth is, both are equal in terms of what they can accomplish.

Sage BP is delicious b:dirty

_Auryon_ - Archosaur · March 2011

i know is a big debate about whats better thats y i wanted to see people's opinion about this

Graey_Rain - Harshlands · March 2011

Why is sage more expensive than demon?
If you want to be half decent with sage or demon you need the same gear.
Spose it's more expensive to get good aps with sage. But if you go demon you'll eventually want every piece of interval there is just like if you go sage. unless you go r9.
You'll also want all your lvl 11 skills and everything +12 lol. Either way it's as expensive as you want it to be.

If all you care about is pve and doing high dmg go demon. Extra apps from spark gives more damage for pve. That's why 90% of sins go demon.
Most only go sage because of the extra 1% from bloodpaint or they think it will do better in group pvp and tw. Though I don't really see the logic there as you pretty much never triple spark in any kind of pvp and imo demon skills are better for pvp as you have longer stuns. Aoe's are maybe a little batter with sage, and mastery is a bit better giving 15% more wpn damage but 2% less crit.

Sage has some nice skills, so does demon. Sage possible tank better with damage reduction from spark and higher bloodpaint, but less aps so kill a bit slower. Also it does cost a bit more to get a 3-4 aps sage than a 3-4 aps demon. You can make a 5 aps demon cheaper than a 4 aps sage.

I'm demon, I'm 5 aps, but would only be 3 if i was sage. Got a lot of demon skills and really like some of them. I've never regret my decision to go demon, but I would love to try sage too. If I made my sin today instead of a year or so ago i'd probably go sage and go full r9 instead of being interval.

Basically both are ok, it's all up to personal preference, playing style and what gear you aim to get.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · March 2011

@Graey

You explained why it's more expensive going sage than demon in your 3rd paragraph ;P

Sure a demon will eventually want all -int gear, but they have the cheapest bill to pay to get 5 APS. Sage sins would have to get event -int gear, and still only have 4 unsparked/sparked. And if you want 5 APS for 8 seconds by using the wind shield genie skill, then you can do that when you spark, BUT, the downside is the genie skill damage reduction overwrites the sage spark ones.

The goodside about using wind shield to get 5aps as a sage sin is that you can get 5aps without sparking. A demon could do the same, but a demon would need ever -int gear as well.

Graey_Rain - Harshlands · March 2011

All -int gear.. which any good demon/sage has :P
Besides, no sin with half a brain uses genie to increase aps. >.>
wastes your genie energy completely in pvp when you could ad/tree/bramble rage/holy path.
In pve it fcks over your triple spark making you do terrible damage if demon.
Also genie skills like frnzy, tangle mire and extreme poison allow you to do far more damage than extra interval.

And yeh I explained why it's cheaper for demon to get high aps. So I see why people think demons cheaper. And it is certainly cheaper to get a good aps demon than sage. But the truth is that to be good you need to spend a sht load either way. If you don't have at least 3.33 base interval with either class and great gear with great refines and shards you just can't compete these days. Youre choice is a simple one. Spend a shtload, farm/merch a shtload, or be really really bad... loolz

YouriNishi - Raging Tide · March 2011

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

And if you want 5 APS for 8 seconds by using the wind shield genie skill, then you can do that when you spark, BUT, the downside is the genie skill damage reduction overwrites the sage spark ones.

Who told you this lie... Its a matter of how you stat your genie b:bye

And it doesn't really matter its the skill of the player not which path you choice.

Graey_Rain - Harshlands · March 2011

YouriNishi - Raging Tide wrote: »

And it doesn't really matter its the skill of the player not which path you choice.

Skill of player and quality of gear.

YouriNishi - Raging Tide · March 2011

Graey_Rain - Harshlands wrote: »

Skill of player and quality of gear.

I've seen some heavy cash shoppers that fail horribly to lesser geared players and instances that should have no problems in. If they took the time to understand the class and when to do what they'd be more effect. Like any class it takes patience to be an effect player. What makes the OP geared +10 sin better is they just aren't as squishy as the +5 geared sin, that's my opinion anyways b:thanks

_Auryon_ - Archosaur · March 2011

well i thank u all for sharing your opinions and i would love to know more stuffs bout sins if u guys are willing to telling me b:thanks b:dirty

Abstractive - Archosaur · March 2011

_Auryon_ - Archosaur wrote: »

well i thank u all for sharing your opinions and i would love to know more stuffs bout sins if u guys are willing to telling me b:thanks b:dirty

'Sins suck.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · March 2011

But Nishi, even with level 10 wind shield, you'd need 80 dex on a genie to match the 25% damage reduction on Sage spark

(if I calculated right)

Most people go level 1 wind shield for the lower genie cost, with the same attack speed boost.

And as always, skill really is > gear

YouriNishi - Raging Tide · March 2011

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

But Nishi, even with level 10 wind shield, you'd need 80 dex on a genie to match the 25% damage reduction on Sage spark (if I calculated right)

Most people go level 1 wind shield for the lower genie cost, with the same attack speed boost.

And as always, skill really is > gear

b:shutup Like I said its a matter of how you stat didn't say what lvl windshield you need, I've tested this. Maybe i'll share the secret b:cute . Also helps to have good LP genie's b:chuckle

Empu - Sanctuary · March 2011

Sage or demon is just a personal taste I think, both have their good sides. I suppose you looked at the skills yourself, and decided on which you like better sage, and which you like better demon. I think the skills are the most important factor to choose on, since imo demon doesn't really necessarily do more damage.

Some will rage when they see I say something like that, but from my point of view, your culti will affect your build. On demon, you'll end up sharding with hp or def lvl. Unless you got epic gear of +12 everywhere, you pretty much need it to solo some bosses or just to survive grabbing aggro (which you will). I don't know many demon sins that shard other then hp or def lvls. On sage however, it's very easy to just shard with all DoT. I'm sage and only sharding with att lvl. My damage always been pretty much equal to a demon sins with comparable gear. Demon has the higher damage potential, while sage has higher survivability potential, but in the end gear choise usually evens it out.

Also, I don't think either culti is more expensive then the other. I suppose ultimately, both aim for the same gear. Aps is nice and all, but more an argument to enter a squad than anything else. A 2.86 aps sage build with r9/g15 vana will be way better then a 4 aps sage build with g13 vana (analogue can be said for demon ofc). In the end it's the dps that makes you a good DD for squad, not the aps. Unfortunately, only limit to that is wc squads : they ask for aps and it's easier to join them with a hook&thorn then a r9 (no joke, tested it). But well, if you're a good DD, you don't need wc for vana anyway :P

So in the end, it all comes down to the skills, at least that's my opinion. And you're the onlyone who can decide on which you like better.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · March 2011

Share Nishi

Olbaze - Sanctuary · March 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

.Also, I don't think either culti is more expensive then the other. I suppose ultimately, both aim for the same gear. Aps is nice and all, but more an argument to enter a squad than anything else. A 2.86 aps sage build with r9/g15 vana will be way better then a 4 aps sage build with g13 vana (analogue can be said for demon ofc). In the end it's the dps that makes you a good DD for squad, not the aps. Unfortunately, only limit to that is wc squads : they ask for aps and it's easier to join them with a hook&thorn then a r9 (no joke, tested it). But well, if you're a good DD, you don't need wc for vana anyway :P

I believe the notion that Sage is more expensive comes from the following:
1. People seem to believe that Sages need to have a lot of the skill books to be useful, e.g. Bloodpaint, Subsea Strike, Power Dash.
2. People seem to ignore the cost of 4-5 aps as it's "standard".

Whether either of these holds true I wouldn't know, but I can imagine that some people would shun Sage sins that do not have Bloodpaint on 100. Also somehow it's funny that people consider Demon superior because it can get 5 aps but consider Sage inferior because "Bloodpaint costs 30m!b:cry". That's just ridiculous: that 30m won't even buy you half of Rank 8 and barely a single piece of TT99.

And from having talked to a few people who did regular high APS nirvanas, I found that they'd be willing to take any Sage Assassin with Bloodpaint to a run. And really, Sage Bloodpaint doesn't even cost that much if you buy the 300 page clip and sell away all the other books. Comes to like 20m for the book at that point. And if you cannot afford to spare 20m for one of the best buffs in the game, you sure as hell cannot afford 4-5 aps either.

Empu - Sanctuary · March 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I believe the notion that Sage is more expensive comes from the following:
1. People seem to believe that Sages need to have a lot of the skill books to be useful, e.g. Bloodpaint, Subsea Strike, Power Dash.
2. People seem to ignore the cost of 4-5 aps as it's "standard".

Whether either of these holds true I wouldn't know, but I can imagine that some people would shun Sage sins that do not have Bloodpaint on 100. Also somehow it's funny that people consider Demon superior because it can get 5 aps but consider Sage inferior because "Bloodpaint costs 30m!b:cry". That's just ridiculous: that 30m won't even buy you half of Rank 8 and barely a single piece of TT99.

And from having talked to a few people who did regular high APS nirvanas, I found that they'd be willing to take any Sage Assassin with Bloodpaint to a run. And really, Sage Bloodpaint doesn't even cost that much if you buy the 300 page clip and sell away all the other books. Comes to like 20m for the book at that point. And if you cannot afford to spare 20m for one of the best buffs in the game, you sure as hell cannot afford 4-5 aps either.

Yeah, guess you're right about those points, but in the end it's just a "ppl seem to think" so not really true (at least not for everyone). There are skills a demon sin should want to get too (wolf emblem, dagger devotion, rib strike, subsea, ...), and in the end I think cost is pretty much the same. Ofc, just my vision but "my ultimate sage sin" and "my ultimate demon sin" would come to same cost.

I'm a sage sin, and last 2x drops was just a wall of pink for vana. Even got bleu pms from ppl that were in squad with me and see me in RT lol The hyperfocus on aps just applies to wc squads, but when you're a good sin you don't need wc :P I really don't get all the thing about aps. I'm invited a lot by ppl that only want below 10min runs, even though I'm 2.86 aps. I don't think I'm invited just for sage bp, even though it helps ofc (most forget and overbuff all the time cause of their macros b:surrender).

But well, guess I'm just weird. My goal never was "5aps" or even "4aps". I wouldn't stop at g13 vana daggers just cause it has -0.1int. I rather look at an ultimate balance between dph, aps and survivability. To obtain the balance I want, would be just as expensive demon as sage. In the end, you're right though. 30mil is a non-factor anyway when talking about endgame lvl99/100 gear.

RexNero - Dreamweaver · March 2011

I'm sin sage now converted in demon i try both and for me sage is better.

venomman · June 2012

4me best is sage, u can get 5aps with sage, just like demon, but u get beter survive chance + more damage, witch u never get with demon.

5aps isn't hard 4 a sage, yes u need all int, & a genie with high dex (100dex here) that gives 4-5xspam= 40-50sec 5aps, beat that demon spark

.

also the high dex makes windshield beter then 3xspark for dam-reduction so no loss there ether.

for shards i'd say if sage go mix of vit-stones+JoSD, notting bad with even more improving ur surive-chances, the longer u live, the longer u hit, even when facing hardcore bm's (were sage tidal) helps even more vs stuns).

Kokki - Harshlands · June 2012

Actually i'm in the posession of 2 sins, one sage one demon. Both have their drawback and their merits.

Sage has sage BP and sage spark so it can solo alot of stuff then demon because of the better heals and damage reduction.

Both sins recquire some slight adjustment to their endgame gear. i'm farming my sage sins daggers as we speak and i keep rerolling third cast daggers till i get double int on them. Then my sage sin is 4 aps base with the standard APS gear

Demon one is going for rank 9 daggers because i believe 4 aps sparked with R9 daggers is still one of the best all round options to go for.

skill wise, sage is a tad better PVE wise. sage BP, sage spark, sage ribstrike are just <333

Jesusisback - Raging Tide · June 2012

venomman wrote: »

4me best is sage, u can get 5aps with sage, just like demon, but u get beter survive chance + more damage, witch u never get with demon.

What you fail to understand is that the 2% crit add on demon Dagger Devo outweighs the 15% extra weapon damage on sage Dagger Devo and tbh it's a small increase.
Even with +12 r9r2 daggers I don't think the 15% will overpower the 2% crit.

And holy ****........another necro. b:surrender

_eVeReL_ - Sanctuary · July 2012

Saku plz correct this guy, umm 2% increase in crit rate only adds 2% of dmg to overall dps, while the 15% extra dmg increases its effectiveness with the refines of the wep resulting in a higher effect as u mentioned at +12 r9r2 dags than with +5 G13s. Sage Dag Devo is also wicked cheap on sanc and thts the reason my sin is going sage. b:chuckle (plus sage bp adds 3% healing effect not 1 as mentioned in some post above)

Olbaze - Sanctuary · July 2012

_eVeReL_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Saku plz correct this guy, umm 2% increase in crit rate only adds 2% of dmg to overall dps, while the 15% extra dmg increases its effectiveness with the refines of the wep resulting in a higher effect as u mentioned at +12 r9r2 dags than with +5 G13s. Sage Dag Devo is also wicked cheap on sanc and thts the reason my sin is going sage. b:chuckle (plus sage bp adds 3% healing effect not 1 as mentioned in some post above)

Your explanation is a bit off.

The relative effectiveness of the multipliers does not change even if you refine the **** out of your weapon. Similarly, since your base damage gets multiplied by both your crit and your DPH, the refining actually benefits both.

Also, if Demon Dagger Devotion is better than Sage Dagger Devotion with a +0 weapon, then it'll be better with a +12 weapon.

The thing is, even if you have 5.0 aps as a Sage, the difference in the DPH multipliers is ridiculously small. For example, comparing myself to an exact copy with different cultivation, I would get 3% more DPS. Which isn't exactly gamebreaking. Not to mention that it would require constant spamming of Windshield, which isn't exactly fun nor productive use of my genie.

Also, Sage BP is a total of 3% heal, not 5%. That is, it adds 1% to the 2% that it was before Sage.

venomman · August 2012

b:avoid if u want 2 talk crt...plz add in consideration Power Dash sage....50%crit iso 40%.....eum 10% >2% correct me if i'm wrong plz ;p

Olbaze - Sanctuary · August 2012

venomman wrote: »

b:avoid if u want 2 talk crt...plz add in consideration Power Dash sage....50%crit iso 40%.....eum 10% >2% correct me if i'm wrong plz ;p

Thing is the 50% is only for 8 seconds out of every 30, at most, thus making it more like +3.33%. Of course, that's still more than what the Demons get.

Thing is, majority of sins don't use Power Dash or Subsea when it really matters.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · August 2012

_eVeReL_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Saku plz correct this guy, umm 2% increase in crit rate only adds 2% of dmg to overall dps, while the 15% extra dmg increases its effectiveness with the refines of the wep resulting in a higher effect as u mentioned at +12 r9r2 dags than with +5 G13s. Sage Dag Devo is also wicked cheap on sanc and thts the reason my sin is going sage. b:chuckle (plus sage bp adds 3% healing effect not 1 as mentioned in some post above)

Somewhat late to respond to this but assuming a 40% crit rate on an endgame sin 2% more crit would be 142%/140%=1.43% more dps.

The 15% more weapon dmg that sages get is 15% weapon damage, but total damage will have about 300% from dex (450dex/150 per multiplier) 500% from spark and 75% from mastery, then add in rings and other things that add to your dps and the 15% mastery difference is less than 1%.

So you're comparing 1.43% for demon and >1% for sage. Demon Mastery is better but as Olba said, it's less than 1% difference.

And it's been proven multiple times that sage bloodpaint "increasing by 3%" is a translation error. It increases by 1% to 3% total. Still, that's 50% more paint heals.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thing is the 50% is only for 8 seconds out of every 30, at most, thus making it more like +3.33%. Of course, that's still more than what the Demons get.

Thing is, majority of sins don't use Power Dash or Subsea when it really matters.

This is true. And I've done the math in another forum thread to show that the difference really isn't that huge considering 10% going from 40% to 90% crit for sages costs them about 1.5 seconds of attack. Still, the difference is there but overall it's something like a 32-35% dps boost for sages and 29-33% dps boost for demons, not game breaking either way. Normally about +3% gain for sages. The real difference comes when they use it at the correct time on a fully debuffed boss and have that 3% multiplied 2x-6x

Sages are more free to use their Inner Harmony for PD than demon's since I think most of us prefer to hold our Inner Harmony for a defensive manuever, somewhat balancing out the defensive difference in our sparks. Sage's have a defensive spark and therefore use offensive skills for dps gain, demon's have an offensive spark and use their skills for defensive manuevers.

Still, I'd rather have people Subseaing in my squads than PDing. Sage Subsea first followed by Demon Subsea for the cd=sex.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · August 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Somewhat late to respond to this but assuming a 40% crit rate on an endgame sin 2% more crit would be 142%/140%=1.43% more dps.

The 15% more weapon dmg that sages get is 15% weapon damage, but total damage will have about 300% from dex (450dex/150 per multiplier) 500% from spark and 75% from mastery, then add in rings and other things that add to your dps and the 15% mastery difference is less than 1%.

So you're comparing 1.43% for demon and >1% for sage. Demon Mastery is better but as Olba said, it's less than 1% difference.

I don't think 40% crit is a fair number, that's rather high. Let's say 35%.

With that, we get:
Sage: (1+3+5+0.9) * 1.35 = 13.365
Demon: (1+3+5+0.75) * 1.37 = 13.3575
Sage/Demon = 1.0005614823133071308253790005615

So the difference is 5.6 damage for every 10,000 in favor of Sages. That's rather negligible considering that most sins have 10,000-30,000 damage.

I do think it's fair not to include Wolf Emblem in this. Well with that it'd be 1.0528169014084507042253521126761 for the Demon.

And it's been proven multiple times that sage bloodpaint "increasing by 3%" is a translation error. It increases by 1% to 3% total. Still, that's 50% more paint heals.

It is. And the argument that a Demon and Sage get the same heals only stands if we're comparing identical gear rather than semi-ideal realistic gear, e.g. 4.0 Sage against 5.0 Demon. In that case, the Sage wins out.

This is true. And I've done the math in another forum thread to show that the difference really isn't that huge considering 10% going from 40% to 90% crit for sages costs them about 1.5 seconds of attack. Still, the difference is there but overall it's something like a 32-35% dps boost for sages and 29-33% dps boost for demons, not game breaking either way. Normally about +3% gain for sages. The real difference comes when they use it at the correct time on a fully debuffed boss and have that 3% multiplied 2x-6x

I don't know where you're getting 1.5s, the channel and cast of Power Dash totals 1.2s and it continues to auto-attack after that. And as far as I'm concerned, factoring average damages over a 30 second period is about as much into the bull**** territory as you can get, short of believing in pink, talking, flying bunnies that shoot cotton candy bazookas at you while humming nyancat.

Still, I'd rather have people Subseaing in my squads than PDing. Sage Subsea first followed by Demon Subsea for the cd=sex.

The thing is, there's very few Sage sins out there and even less Sage sins with Sage Subsea. I'm one of the latter, it's the last damn skill I'm missing. And you ask me, my money would be better spent on refining my weapon. Though yeah, if I ran into Sage Subsea for 50-60m, I'd buy it.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · August 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think 40% crit is a fair number, that's rather high. Let's say 35%.

With that, we get:
Sage: (1+3+5+0.9) * 1.35 = 13.365
Demon: (1+3+5+0.75) * 1.37 = 13.3575
Sage/Demon = 1.0005614823133071308253790005615

Missing damage add's that don't effect weapon damage but are effected by crit like rings, ring engravings, the + phys attack on Lionheart necklace...

Either way, we both agree its >1% difference.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I do think it's fair not to include Wolf Emblem in this. Well with that it'd be 1.0528169014084507042253521126761 for the Demon.

...

And as far as I'm concerned, factoring average damages over a 30 second period is about as much into the bull**** territory as you can get, short of believing in pink, talking, flying bunnies that shoot cotton candy bazookas at you while humming nyancat.

Technically, you just calculated WE over an infinite period also. My number's were theoretical, anyways. I think it's about as impractical to calculate over a 30 second period as you are with a 8 second period. Different situations, different time spans. Again, we're arguing theory, different gear setups, and the 'jists" of actual game play. But ~about~ 3% is the difference between PDs.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

It is. And the argument that a Demon and Sage get the same heals only stands if we're comparing identical gear rather than semi-ideal realistic gear, e.g. 4.0 Sage against 5.0 Demon. In that case, the Sage wins out.

I've argued this before, that with similar dph weapons like G15 vs G15 or R9 demon vs R9 sage you can expect either 5.0 vs 3.33 for demon getting 50% boost in aps and therefore equal heals and more damage from demon paint as a slower sage with more the same amout of heals but less damage, or 2.86 vs 4.0 R9 where sage gets slightly more heals but demon does more damage.

Still, it's a squad buff so I was comparing equal dps so sage gets 50% more heals.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting 1.5s, the channel and cast of Power Dash totals 1.2s and it continues to auto-attack after that.

1.2 is the exact channel+cast but there is animation lag where your character finishing the graphic action of casting and isn't attacking. It's takes a fraction of a second before your character starts attacking. Check youtube for 1/32 animations of PD and you can see you lose about 1/2 a second just going into the auto attack.

Or ask Skai, who has noticed he falls about 10 chi gain short from his triple spark and has commented in the forums before about the exact 15 second length of chi gain (5 chi per attack x 5 aps x 13.8 should be 345 chi but it comes in around 330 if you PD).

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

The thing is, there's very few Sage sins out there and even less Sage sins with Sage Subsea. I'm one of the latter, it's the last damn skill I'm missing. And you ask me, my money would be better spent on refining my weapon. Though yeah, if I ran into Sage Subsea for 50-60m, I'd buy it.

Sage is kind of a hipster thing to select. There are tons on Sanctuary, prolly 50/50 nowadays (and most think you get 15% more dps from dagger devotion and 5% bloodpaint *surrenders*). I wasn't talking about lvl 11 Subsea, though. I'd rather have a sin do level 10 subsea for the entire squad than to PD for 3% more damage for just himself.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · August 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Missing damage add's that don't effect weapon damage but are effected by crit like rings, ring engravings, the + phys attack on Lionheart necklace...

Either way, we both agree its >1% difference.

Those are only a factor if you're thinking that the two cultivations have different gear. And in that case it just gets way too complex and pointless.

As long as the gear are identical, the base Weapon damage is identical, so we can just compare the multipliers.

I've argued this before, that with similar dph weapons like G15 vs G15 or R9 demon vs R9 sage you can expect either 5.0 vs 3.33 for demon getting 50% boost in aps and therefore equal heals and more damage from demon paint as a slower sage with more the same amout of heals but less damage, or 2.86 vs 4.0 R9 where sage gets slightly more heals but demon does more damage.

I would think that Sage at 4.0 is valid now that we have G16 Nirvana, which provides a rather realistic 2x -0.05 interval weapon with damn good DPH.

Sage is kind of a hipster thing to select. There are tons on Sanctuary, prolly 50/50 nowadays (and most think you get 15% more dps from dagger devotion and 5% bloodpaint *surrenders*). I wasn't talking about lvl 11 Subsea, though. I'd rather have a sin do level 10 subsea for the entire squad than to PD for 3% more damage for just himself.

Well the thing is, I do a bit of everything. I tend to go in cycles of Mire + Subsea and EP + PD. Start at full chi and I can pull off 3 of those without Windshield. Since the two skills both have 30s cooldowns and cost 2 sparks, there's no reason to use just one or the other, unless there's special circumstances, such as Oceania in FCC or bosses that you can amp in Nirvana.

But yeah, Sage is getting more popular, for all the wrong reasons. Some go Sage just because they don't want to be Demon, some go Sage for Bloodpaint. Hell, some probably go Sage because of what me and Empu post on these forums.

Empu - Sanctuary · August 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hell, some probably go Sage because of what me and Empu post on these forums.

Idk if that is true, but I do get asked about culti ingame quite often. That is actually easier then when ppl just read things here on forums, as you can ask what they want to do and how they play etc. Makes it easier to bring their attention to the points that matter to them, so they can make the good choice without pushing them to 1 side.

Btw, nice sin-rez on this thread b:laugh

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · August 2012

Well, my decision to go sage after I get full R9r2 +10/+12 daggers is partially because of Empu/Olbaze's posts here.

I enjoy being demon, and I'll be able to enjoy being 4.0 R9r2 +12 daggers for a while since I'll be getting that first. And by that time, if R8r hasn't really gotten a boost, then I'll be getting R9 boots and legs and then work on R9r2-ing them along with the rest of the set. And since that'll take a while, I'll be able to have fun for a bit while farming. And by that time I think it'll be safe to try out sage!

But I don't think I'll last that long to keep my goals like those going xD.

Sin Sage VS Demon

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