It's called "Bullying"...
angelmunchkin
Posts: 0 Arc User
My niece posted this in her Facebook status today and I not only 'liked' it, but posted it in mine, as well. Because it is oh so true!
The Girl you just called fat? She has been starving herself & has lost over 30lbs. The Boy you just called stupid? He has a learning disability & studies over 4hrs a night. The Girl you just called ugly? She spends hours putting makeup on hoping people will like her. The Boy you just tripped? He is abused enough at home. There's a lot more to people than you think. Put this as your status if you're against bullying.
When I was a kid, and through my teenage years, until I finally "blossomed" after having my first child at age 21... I was one of those kids that got bullied. I was scrawny, abused by my mother, and altogether from a family that was simply dysfunctional (my parents fought A LOT, violently). The bullies may think it's fun, or that it makes them cool... but you know what? And I am speaking from first hand, personal experience... Bullying Hurts!
And there is a such thing as cyber-bullying and, while it may not hurt the victim, physically, it does hurt them in many other ways.
There is a good reason why I have posted this on the PWI forums, and I think many of you know why.
The Girl you just called fat? She has been starving herself & has lost over 30lbs. The Boy you just called stupid? He has a learning disability & studies over 4hrs a night. The Girl you just called ugly? She spends hours putting makeup on hoping people will like her. The Boy you just tripped? He is abused enough at home. There's a lot more to people than you think. Put this as your status if you're against bullying.
When I was a kid, and through my teenage years, until I finally "blossomed" after having my first child at age 21... I was one of those kids that got bullied. I was scrawny, abused by my mother, and altogether from a family that was simply dysfunctional (my parents fought A LOT, violently). The bullies may think it's fun, or that it makes them cool... but you know what? And I am speaking from first hand, personal experience... Bullying Hurts!
And there is a such thing as cyber-bullying and, while it may not hurt the victim, physically, it does hurt them in many other ways.
There is a good reason why I have posted this on the PWI forums, and I think many of you know why.
"People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.
Post edited by angelmunchkin on
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angelmunchkin wrote: »My niece posted this in her Facebook status today and I not only 'liked' it, but posted it in mine, as well. Because it is oh so true!
The Girl you just called fat? She has been starving herself & has lost over 30lbs. The Boy you just called stupid? He has a learning disability & studies over 4hrs a night. The Girl you just called ugly? She spends hours putting makeup on hoping people will like her. The Boy you just tripped? He is abused enough at home. There's a lot more to people than you think. Put this as your status if you're against bullying.
When I was a kid, and through my teenage years, until I finally "blossomed" after having my first child at age 21... I was one of those kids that got bullied. I was scrawny, abused by my mother, and altogether from a family that was simply dysfunctional (my parents fought A LOT, violently). The bullies may think it's fun, or that it makes them cool... but you know what? And I am speaking from first hand, personal experience... Bullying Hurts!
And there is a such thing as cyber-bullying and, while it may not hurt the victim, physically, it does hurt them in many other ways.
There is a good reason why I have posted this on the PWI forums, and I think many of you know why.
QFT b:sad[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
˙buoɹʇs ǝq ןן,ı ʇɐɥʇ ɟןǝsʎɯ ןןǝʇ ı os0 -
everyone's been bullied... but they gotta step up and say something to that bully. It's how we grow strong in the future and teach this to our kids(as long as it's a good example)! b:victory
i'm with ya angel!／l、
ﾞ（ﾟ､ ｡ ７
l、ﾞ ~ヽ
じしf_, )0 -
Sometimes we grow too strong and become kinda heartless to other people. (b:surrender)
Like example is my father, he is smart and know how to make a business but can become very heartless to poor people. Especially with so many people trying to disguise them self as poor people.
He was bullied a lot before, especially because he was a Chinese and at that time common people seem hating Chinese by so much on my country. (even now since Chinese people rarely has a position on government and we aren't allowed to live on certain area)
To make things worse, his body isn't complete. The left hand can't grow their fingers well and only able to grow very short. He told me how angry was him because of the condition and blaming his parents.
He now has a nice home, a wife, and 3 children now. But almost every siblings of my mother family is messed up. They like to threaten my father before because of non sense reason that makes me can't think of them as an adult. Some of my father siblings also funny . . one of them didn't come to their siblings burial, because of another non sense reason.
When i remember his stories . . i can't imagine to endure it and become successful like him . . . (b:surrender)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
I will give a dissent to the OP for discussion's sake instead of towing the "bullies r evil" line that will inevitably flood the topic.
Being bullied is all part of life, like a lot of other things. It teaches people how to handle certain situations. It teaches you what is mature and immature, and it teaches you how to deal with elements in society that will act in the very least sense unfavorable.
Bullying isn't inherently a good thing, just like diseases aren't. However, both have quite the potential to make people stronger, and in a very competitive world, while there are always potential risks, it's better to expose one's self to different things to be able to make better decisions in life and teach others how to. IMO too many "middlemen" in conflicts with others, this nanny, coddling-like, litigant, politically correct, often times fear-based way westernized culture has come along has, to me, stalled time or turned back the clock on social evolution.0 -
I also know how much bullying hurts, I've been bullied for quite a while. Ever since I was four up until I entered college, which is 2 years ago now. That was at least by people of my own age.
I've also been bullied by someone of about 35 years old until I got home crying once and finally something was done about it. Friends of mine are friends with her and even though she made nasty comments all the time about me they just laughed because they simply didn't dare to stand up for me. Afraid they would be the one she would pick on then.
Atm the bullying stopped for me, I sometimes get comments on my clothing style(mainly black clothes) but I can live with it as long as it stays by that.
Bullying hurts and I learned myself to be strong and stand up for it. I can take a lot myself, but if I see someone bullying people I'll stand up for them. Bully my friends and you're dead...
EDIT: I gotta admit yes, it's a part of life, but only to a certain extent. There's people who are really abused and will have trauma's due to it.
My sig kinda represents what I always told myself when I was being bullied. Never give up, never give in. I'll always hold my head high when I'm around those people even though it hurts. Because they want to hurt me, but I won't let them win even if I'm defeated.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks Silvychar for the awesome sig
Characters:
waterfal - lvl 90 demon ferrari veno
Hazumi_chan - lvl 9x sage seeker0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »I will give a dissent to the OP for discussion's sake instead of towing the "bullies r evil" line that will inevitably flood the topic.
Being bullied is all part of life, like a lot of other things. It teaches people how to handle certain situations. It teaches you what is mature and immature, and it teaches you how to deal with elements in society that will act in the very least sense unfavorable.
Bullying isn't inherently a good thing, just like diseases aren't. However, both have quite the potential to make people stronger, and in a very competitive world, while there are always potential risks, it's better to expose one's self to different things to be able to make better decisions in life and teach others how to. IMO too many "middlemen" in conflicts with others, this nanny, coddling-like, litigant, politically correct, often times fear-based way westernized culture has come along has, to me, stalled time or turned back the clock on social evolution.
Bullying does not have to be a part of life and should not be. People need to learn how to treat other people the same way they would want to be treated. My experience has taught me that the bullies are actually, either, cowards or they are insecure with themselves... so they bully the weak and the meek, to make themselves feel strong and powerful and important.
As Waterfal said, being bullied can be traumatizing. You don't know what hardships the victim may have in life and every victim will be different in how they respond. There was an article in our local paper a few years back about a kid who commited suicide because of all the bullying from his classmates. And as that Facebook status says, you don't know what the story of each victim is. Whether the bully is bullying the victim about the way he looks or how much money he has (or doesn't have), or for whatever reason... bullying, while always a fact of life, is unacceptable. We are all people, no matter how we look or how much (or little) we have, we are all equal."People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.0 -
Whatever your perception of a bully is, clearly the error in your logic is that bullying cannot or should not be around. This is a decision you are making for a society based on your own individual perception of things, and this is not how it works in the real world. People congregate into groups, those outside the "group" get certain treatment. This is how it is.angelmunchkin wrote: »Bullying does not have to be a part of life and should not be. People need to learn how to treat other people the same way they would want to be treated. My experience has taught me that the bullies are actually, either, cowards or they are insecure with themselves... so they bully the weak and the meek, to make themselves feel strong and powerful and important.
As Waterfal said, being bullied can be traumatizing. You don't know what hardships the victim may have in life and every victim will be different in how they respond. There was an article in our local paper a few years back about a kid who commited suicide because of all the bullying from his classmates. And as that Facebook status says, you don't know what the story of each victim is. Whether the bully is bullying the victim about the way he looks or how much money he has (or doesn't have), or for whatever reason... bullying, while always a fact of life, is unacceptable. We are all people, no matter how we look or how much (or little) we have, we are all equal.
Instead of maybe trying to force change something that is ingrained in human nature, why don't you adapt? It's not as if I lack the capability to understand and empathize with those who have been bullied. I have been on both ends myself, being the bully and the bullied. Perspective is absolutely wonderful. However, the inability to tell the bigger picture from it's parts is the brick wall you are going to be perpetually running into with the mentality of coulda woulda shoulda.
From "experience", the ability to deal with a bully (there are countless means and it doesn't merely involve physical confrontation) is a far better societal resource than existence without the bully, regardless of whatever psycho-analyzing of a bully you try and do to justify elimination. Without the bully people lack the social knowledge of how to deal with the inevitability of this situation down the road, and the bigger picture is elimination of things one doesn't like to deal with does not ever make those things go away -- they only stand as a barrier to social evolution on the individual's part, which stands completely in contradiction to knowledge and betterment of social standards. The key is in "social" is that the individual is not the only factor, and that better dealing with the bully is really the only logical tool instead of elimination of the bully.0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Whatever your perception of a bully is, clearly the error in your logic is that bullying cannot or should not be around. This is a decision you are making for a society based on your own individual perception of things, and this is not how it works in the real world. People congregate into groups, those outside the "group" get certain treatment. This is how it is.
Instead of maybe trying to force change something that is ingrained in human nature, why don't you adapt? It's not as if I lack the capability to understand and empathize with those who have been bullied. I have been on both ends myself, being the bully and the bullied. Perspective is absolutely wonderful. However, the inability to tell the bigger picture from it's parts is the brick wall you are going to be perpetually running into with the mentality of coulda woulda shoulda.
From "experience", the ability to deal with a bully (there are countless means and it doesn't merely involve physical confrontation) is a far better societal resource than existence without the bully, regardless of whatever psycho-analyzing of a bully you try and do to justify elimination. Without the bully people lack the social knowledge of how to deal with the inevitability of this situation down the road, and the bigger picture is elimination of things one doesn't like to deal with does not ever make those things go away -- they only stand as a barrier to social evolution on the individual's part, which stands completely in contradiction to knowledge and betterment of social standards. The key is in "social" is that the individual is not the only factor, and that better dealing with the bully is really the only logical tool instead of elimination of the bully.
Just because that is "just the way it is", doesn't make it right. All people are equal and have the same rights, including the right to be left in peace. How can you possibly justify treating people badly? Unless you are one of those bullies... (just saying)
As for adapting, I think at my age (49.5 y/o), I have adapted quite well. But again, just because people adapt, doesn't make it right. It may just be that "adapting" is what has so blinded this society to the damages bullying can result in. I'm talking about bullying without provocation or reason. This does not teach anyone how to handle anything down the road... in fact, for some/many people it can have quite the opposite effect (it may create a nervous non-social person, cause depression, and many other things). You don't know the story behind the person being bullied... therefore you don't know why they are the way they are or why they are in the "social" position they are in.
Groups of people who look down on outsiders, and/or mistreat them, are called "cliques". Or at least they used to be. Treating those outside your "clique" badly is just wrong, no matter how you look at it or try to justify it. The people in that "clique" are no more important or special than those standing on the outside.
If you don't like someone, for whatever reason, just leave them alone! How hard can that be?"People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.0 -
Eh, I kinda have to agree with Janus.
While my bullying in school settings was not as severe as most people, it was still upsetting. But it didn't make me as thick skinned as I should have been coming into a mother who turned out to be a *****.
What once was a sweet mum, she's now constantly yelling at me for something.
Once in a blue moon, and I mean that literally, I'll wear a low cut shirt. What do I get in response to this? "Go get ***** for all I care". Really? Considering my past, I would think my mum would NEVER say this to me. But oh well.
She threatens to hit me when I "embarrass" her infront of family and whenever I have something to say, she either interrupts me or "tunes me out" as she likes to call it. I have given her nothing but respect when she wants to talk, but I cannot be given it in return because i'm not "important".
Many things are thrown around at me, and I'm not going to say that I never provoke her, because sometimes I do act rude, but the things she says to me are beyond anything I could ever imagine to say to her. When I'm angry I never throw personal insults at her, yet she can say "**** you" to me and constantly call me stupid and other spirit-breaking words.
Had I been more severely bullied in high school, I may have known how to deal with these things better, whether it be by running away or standing up to the bully. But if you look at it the other way, bullying can be a bad thing. Bullied people tend to keep everything bottled up inside and can reach a point of insanity, which can lead to suicide or a very severe depression. It can take years of therapy to rewind the effects of a very severe bullying, and you can never get a life back after it's been taken away. We should see this from the recently high amount of teen suicides that occur due to bullying.
But for the kids that stick it out, build a tough skin and don't let it get to them, I applaud them. They need to realise that sometimes life doesn't get better after high school, and I would gladly take my high school bully over my mum any day.
Bullying will disappear whenever everyone decides they everyone is equal and no one is less important than themselves. Which will be never.
EDIT:
Oh and I do agree that bullies are bullies because they have a void in their life somewhere, whether lack of love at home or they feel insecure about the very things they bully about. IE: My school bully would call me a "pig" even though I'm only 120 lbs and she was well over 180 lbs. Smart, right?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
˙buoɹʇs ǝq ןן,ı ʇɐɥʇ ɟןǝsʎɯ ןןǝʇ ı os0 -
NiightmareXz - Harshlands wrote: »Eh, I kinda have to agree with Janus.
While my bullying in school settings was not as severe as most people, it was still upsetting. But it didn't make me as thick skinned as I should have been coming into a mother who turned out to be a *****.
What once was a sweet mum, she's now constantly yelling at me for something.
Once in a blue moon, and I mean that literally, I'll wear a low cut shirt. What do I get in response to this? "Go get ***** for all I care". Really? Considering my past, I would think my mum would NEVER say this to me. But oh well.
She threatens to hit me when I "embarrass" her infront of family and whenever I have something to say, she either interrupts me or "tunes me out" as she likes to call it. I have given her nothing but respect when she wants to talk, but I cannot be given it in return because i'm not "important".
Many things are thrown around at me, and I'm not going to say that I never provoke her, because sometimes I do act rude, but the things she says to me are beyond anything I could ever imagine to say to her. When I'm angry I never throw personal insults at her, yet she can say "**** you" to me and constantly call me stupid and other spirit-breaking words.
Had I been more severely bullied in high school, I may have known how to deal with these things better, whether it be by running away or standing up to the bully. But if you look at it the other way, bullying can be a bad thing. Bullied people tend to keep everything bottled up inside and can reach a point of insanity, which can lead to suicide or a very severe depression. It can take years of therapy to rewind the effects of a very severe bullying, and you can never get a life back after it's been taken away. We should see this from the recently high amount of teen suicides that occur due to bullying.
But for the kids that stick it out, build a tough skin and don't let it get to them, I applaud them. They need to realise that sometimes life doesn't get better after high school, and I would gladly take my high school bully over my mum any day.
Bullying will disappear whenever everyone decides they everyone is equal and no one is less important than themselves. Which will be never.
EDIT:
Oh and I do agree that bullies are bullies because they have a void in their life somewhere, whether lack of love at home or they feel insecure about the very things they bully about. IE: My school bully would call me a "pig" even though I'm only 120 lbs and she was well over 180 lbs. Smart, right?
Had you been more severely bullied, you may have ended up that way. And without enough self confidence to wear the clothes you wear.
And you're right, someone who weighs 180 pounds calling someone who weighs only 120 a pig is an irony. And an obvious sign that that girl had no self confidence and perhaps was jealous because you do.
Not all kids have the strength to not let it get to them... their home situation, a disability (whether mental or physical)... many things can prevent a person from having that kind of strength. For me, it was my home situation and my physical frailty... I developed fragile emotions from a very early age."People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.0 -
angelmunchkin wrote: »Had you been more severely bullied, you may have ended up that way. And without enough self confidence to wear the clothes you wear.
I have seen people deal with bullying very differently than that, so you can't go around saying that bullying only causes self-esteem issues and suicides. Just because there is a bad side to everything, does not make every result of it bad.
Anyway, throughout high school I didn't wear the clothes I wear today. IE: HUGE baggy shirt to hide my chest.
But because I realised that girls like my bully would be around all my life, I shouldn't feel ashamed of what I look like because there is always going to be that one person that will be jealous of it. You can't live your life in fear that someone is going to hate you for what you are, and you should embrace who you are, not change, hate yourself or get depressed about it. There are always going to be people who are mean, it's just the way it is, and you can't change that, but you can change how you deal with them and the comments they make.
And now I walk around in all these pretty outfits and instead of people saying mean things, I'm constantly getting compliments on how pretty I look. It's funny how bullying can work. b:cute[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
˙buoɹʇs ǝq ןן,ı ʇɐɥʇ ɟןǝsʎɯ ןןǝʇ ı os0 -
NiightmareXz - Harshlands wrote: »I have seen people deal with bullying very differently than that, so you can't go around saying that bullying only causes self-esteem issues and suicides. Just because there is a bad side to everything, does not make every result of it bad.
Anyway, throughout high school I didn't wear the clothes I wear today. IE: HUGE baggy shirt to hide my chest.
But because I realised that girls like my bully would be around all my life, I shouldn't feel ashamed of what I look like because there is always going to be that one person that will be jealous of it. You can't live your life in fear that someone is going to hate you for what you are, and you should embrace who you are, not change, hate yourself or get depressed about it. There are always going to be people who are mean, it's just the way it is, and you can't change that, but you can change how you deal with them and the comments they make.
And now I walk around in all these pretty outfits and instead of people saying mean things, I'm constantly getting compliments on how pretty I look. It's funny how bullying can work. b:cute
I never said that all instances of bullying results in something bad... but even if only 2% of it does, that's too much. We're talking about peoples lives here and the fact that those people who do the bullying do not know the stories behind their victims. You are just one of the lucky ones... one who could handle it and turn it around. There are others who cannot, no matter how hard they try."People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.0 -
I dunno why you keep mentioning the morality of bullying. Nobody here is suggesting it's morally right and perfectly okay to bully others.angelmunchkin wrote: »Just because that is "just the way it is", doesn't make it right. All people are equal and have the same rights, including the right to be left in peace. How can you possibly justify treating people badly? Unless you are one of those bullies... (just saying)
As for adapting, I think at my age (49.5 y/o), I have adapted quite well. But again, just because people adapt, doesn't make it right. It may just be that "adapting" is what has so blinded this society to the damages bullying can result in. I'm talking about bullying without provocation or reason. This does not teach anyone how to handle anything down the road... in fact, for some/many people it can have quite the opposite effect (it may create a nervous non-social person, cause depression, and many other things). You don't know the story behind the person being bullied... therefore you don't know why they are the way they are or why they are in the "social" position they are in.
Groups of people who look down on outsiders, and/or mistreat them, are called "cliques". Or at least they used to be. Treating those outside your "clique" badly is just wrong, no matter how you look at it or try to justify it. The people in that "clique" are no more important or special than those standing on the outside.
If you don't like someone, for whatever reason, just leave them alone! How hard can that be?
However, you clearly overemphasize the negative part of bullying. I find people in poor environments to be a far more socially catastrophic situations than those who are being picked on. One can equally suggest bullying results in deaths, suicides, and such, as video games do. Translation is: certainly not enough to put the blame on that. Would be an enormous red herring.
I'd like to see your plan for eliminating bullies... why this is a better idea than learning how to simply deal with them like other things in societies that one is going to dislike? And of course how you are going to manage to eliminate something that looks like it occurs naturally in social systems.0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »I dunno why you keep mentioning the morality of bullying. Nobody here is suggesting it's morally right and perfectly okay to bully others.
However, you clearly overemphasize the negative part of bullying. I find people in poor environments to be a far more socially catastrophic situations than those who are being picked on. One can equally suggest bullying results in deaths, suicides, and such, as video games do. Translation is: certainly not enough to put the blame on that. Would be an enormous red herring.
I'd like to see your plan for eliminating bullies... why this is a better idea than learning how to simply deal with them like other things in societies that one is going to dislike? And of course how you are going to manage to eliminate something that looks like it occurs naturally in social systems.
I haven't said anything about morality, now have I? I know, all to well, that people have no morals anymore... generally speaking.
There are legal consequences to harassment, and bullying falls under harassment. How does sending them to jail sound? I'm all for that! And it does happen, on the rare occasion, but not often enough... because like I said, you don't know the stories behind the victims. Most bullying, as with most other forms of harassment, goes unreported due to fear of retribution. And any (and all) negative results of bullying are not over-emphasized. If anything, they are not emphasized enough. Parents need to teach their kids MANNERS!
It's not the victims who need to adapt... it's the bullies who need to be rehabilitated.
If you don't see anything wrong with hurting other people, then you have a problem... a serious problem... and I am done speaking with you. I wouldn't be surprised, at all, if you kick puppies too."People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.0 -
sorry... bullying IS a part of life. No one will ever be able to change it because when that one person or group starts fighting against it, its them stooping to the bully's level and acting like them. We are all human beings with the power of CHOICE and if we so choose to have moments of bullying then bullying there will be. Im sorry if you can not accept this sign of human nature, to seek knowledge, excitement and adventure. Nothing ever changes in this world without some type of disruption in the common routine. And no matter which side you are on, you can either choose to accept things for the way they are and adapt to them in a positive way OR react negatively and keep the disruption and negative perception spreading. ultimately it is OUR choice on how we deal with it. not theirs and if you truly and honestly believe i am wrong about this, then in my personal opinion, you have issues with accepting and have a tendency to fault everyone else but yourself. I have bullied and I have been bullied. I have at times been a bully to myself and begged to be bullied by someone else. It is the experiences we gain that show ourselves to other people. But honestly, without the people out there looking to pull us down, we may not always be able to find the drive to be better. I do believe that there are cases that bullying leads to legal issues and i personally believe it should not have to go that far but you can not have the tolerable without the intolerable. For some it is good on both sides. For others it is not. Everyone is different and if we cant accept the fact that life and the future have yet to be lived, then we are all worse off than we can possibly imagine.0
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sorry... bullying IS a part of life. No one will ever be able to change it because when that one person or group starts fighting against it, its them stooping to the bully's level and acting like them. We are all human beings with the power of CHOICE and if we so choose to have moments of bullying then bullying there will be. Im sorry if you can not accept this sign of human nature, to seek knowledge, excitement and adventure. Nothing ever changes in this world without some type of disruption in the common routine. And no matter which side you are on, you can either choose to accept things for the way they are and adapt to them in a positive way OR react negatively and keep the disruption and negative perception spreading. ultimately it is OUR choice on how we deal with it. not theirs and if you truly and honestly believe i am wrong about this, then in my personal opinion, you have issues with accepting and have a tendency to fault everyone else but yourself. I have bullied and I have been bullied. I have at times been a bully to myself and begged to be bullied by someone else. It is the experiences we gain that show ourselves to other people. But honestly, without the people out there looking to pull us down, we may not always be able to find the drive to be better. I do believe that there are cases that bullying leads to legal issues and i personally believe it should not have to go that far but you can not have the tolerable without the intolerable. For some it is good on both sides. For others it is not. Everyone is different and if we cant accept the fact that life and the future have yet to be lived, then we are all worse off than we can possibly imagine.
So what you are basically saying, is anyone who fights to end any kind of wrong doing... is stooping to level of the wrong doers?
If someone chooses to have a moment of feeling like, oh I dunno, **** someone... then **** there will be? That's your logic. We're supposed to accept that?
First we accept bullying... the victims never get their justice. We make the victims adapt and we don't rehabilitate the bullies.
Moving along..
Drug dealers are a fact of life too... are we suppose to just adapt to them selling drugs to our children? Or are we suppose to fight it... oh, wait... that might lower us to their level.
Moving on along...
****, incest, child molestation... oops can't fight those either.
And then we hit our dead end...
Murder... it's a fact of life, but I guess we are just suppose to adapt to that too.
A functional society seeks out and punishes those within it who are disruptive and abusive. That includes it's bullies. And if it's children who are doing the bullying, then parents need to discipline their children for doing so and teach them better.
Trying to right a wrong does not bring those who seek justice down to the level of those who are committing the injustices. I have no idea where you get that information from, other than the fact that you admit to being a bully and you don't see any reason why you should be disciplined for it. You like to hurt people, but they are not suppose to do anything about it, except let you continue to hurt others.
You make me sick...
NOTE: **** is R A P E... language filters >_>,"People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.0 -
Wrong. Yes you are talking about the morality of bulling when you suggest that it's not ok to bully people (how one conducts themselves is the very definition of morality) and that it should be eliminated from society.angelmunchkin wrote: »I haven't said anything about morality, now have I? I know, all to well, that people have no morals anymore... generally speaking.
There are legal consequences to harassment, and bullying falls under harassment. How does sending them to jail sound? I'm all for that! And it does happen, on the rare occasion, but not often enough... because like I said, you don't know the stories behind the victims. Most bullying, as with most other forms of harassment, goes unreported due to fear of retribution. And any (and all) negative results of bullying are not over-emphasized. If anything, they are not emphasized enough. Parents need to teach their kids MANNERS!
It's not the victims who need to adapt... it's the bullies who need to be rehabilitated.
If you don't see anything wrong with hurting other people, then you have a problem... a serious problem... and I am done speaking with you. I wouldn't be surprised, at all, if you kick puppies too.
And who really does most of the bullying? Kids do. That's how kids learn. They poke around and sometimes they get hurt, sometimes they run into things they don't like. You can tell every kid you see on planet Earth not to stick their hand on the hot stove but a rather good number of them have to experience it to actually learn from the mistake. Your suggestion is to slap some cuffs on kids because it's technically illegal? That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. No wonder you got all personal and said I kick puppies. Nothing but emotional bull, and the repeated nonsense of suggesting I love it when bullies knock people around when I've stated several times that I don't think they are inherently good nor do I think they're inherently evil either.
How about let's get more information on what causes bullying to try and prevent more of the underlying causes that aren't merely natural? I don't see you trying to think up anything constructive. Wow, let's teach kids manners? They're fricken kids. You think around other kids they're going to overly consider manners their parents taught at home? Very very few.
But if anything your posts does teach us something -- that there are plenty of people living in a dream world where you can just erase things you don't like and magically people will suddenly learn the evils of bullying without ever experiencing the bully. Even better, rather than like 99%+ of the bullies learning that bullying is wrong (and growing out of it) as they do already, let's just slap a criminal record on them so they can have a less chance of finding a job, and be more apt to turn to crime. Oh right, the bully bullied someone.. they obviously are devoid of feelings and humanity as well.
What really concerns me is parents and society teaching kids to be afraid of other people, and afraid of standing on their own two feet. This does not promote someone to go out in the real world and have the confidence to succeed and accomplish things on their own. It's going to make them scared and seek third party intervention when it's something more often than not they can handle on their own.
No, 2% is 2%. That's not too much or less. That's just a number. It isn't possible to be 0%. It isn't worth the effort to make it 0%. It's worth the effort to simply educate kids on how to deal with bullies.angelmunchkin wrote: »I never said that all instances of bullying results in something bad... but even if only 2% of it does, that's too much. We're talking about peoples lives here and the fact that those people who do the bullying do not know the stories behind their victims. You are just one of the lucky ones... one who could handle it and turn it around. There are others who cannot, no matter how hard they try.
And unfortunately, not everyone was created equal. Sadly, some kids get more traumatizing experiences. Bullying has always been in society. Someone not being able to handle something that occurs in society normally is quite a minority of people, and it is similar to the notion that some kids are also incapable of dealing with video games, telling the difference between fiction and reality. Going the dumb and impossible task of trying to eliminate (or in your brilliant idea, lock up) bullies, or eliminate video games, one must teach the person who deals with them to adapt to something that society will never get rid of. Part of that has to do with parenting and schooling, paying attention to how a person interacts with others, or in the analogy with video games, how they interact with that. You have entirely the wrong approach. For anyone else, go 180 degrees of what this poster is suggesting, and you'll likely be on a more correct path.0 -
@JanusZeal
I can respect wanting to play devil's advocate in the interest of promoting alternative view points however, you denounce angelmunchkin for being in error with her logic, well....I call you out for being in grievous error of logic in addition to misunderstanding the topic at hand.
Where to start.... 0.oJanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »I will give a dissent to the OP for discussion's sake instead of towing the "bullies r evil" line that will inevitably flood the topic.
Being bullied is all part of life, like a lot of other things.
Yes, unfortunately, many people will experience bullying at some point in their life. However, it is "not all part of life" unless we choose for it to be so. As individuals we have the free will to make it part of our society or not. I choose not to bully others,....it is for everyone to make this personal choice. Fortunately, with maturity and education, most people come to realize the harm that bullying does to society and make a similar choice to denounce bullying when they see it.
It teaches people how to handle certain situations. It teaches you what is mature and immature, and it teaches you how to deal with elements in society that will act in the very least sense unfavorable. Bullying isn't inherently a good thing, just like diseases aren't. However, both have quite the potential to make people stronger, and in a very competitive world, while there are always potential risks, it's better to expose one's self to different things to be able to make better decisions in life and teach others how to.
Yes, people do learn things from being bullied. However, bullying is NOT the only method of learning, nor is it by any measure the best teacher for such lessons. Bullying is about exercising tyranny to torment and abuse others, breaking down their confidence, self-esteem, and identity, leaving people traumatized and damaged - that is why it is called bullying. Bullying teaches both the bully and the bullied all the wrong lessons about social interactions and self-identity, respectively. Bullying has no place in the adult world ....unless you are a psychopathic dictator intent on massacring your own citizens *looks over at Moammar Gadhafi*
Some people may have the copying skills to minimize the damage, and some people will respond to being bullied by seeking out new "healthy" challenges to restore their self-identity. However, if you are going to defend bullying as a means to becoming stronger, I think you need to stop watching Hollywood movies.......bullying does not lead to becoming a kung-fu master who gets the hot girl. *did I just burst someone's bubble?*
IMO too many "middlemen" in conflicts with others, this nanny, coddling-like, litigant, politically correct, often times fear-based way westernized culture has come along has, to me, stalled time or turned back the clock on social evolution.
The reason why bullying is increasingly under the microscope today is because we, as a society, have evolved sufficiently to realize that individuals are healthier, and subsequently, society is more productive if we cooperate by treating one another with respect, dignity, and embrace social justice. If you think that flinging **** at one another (speaking metaphorically, and literally in some cases, of bullying behaviour) is the best way for social evolution, then...ummm... good luck with that? By defending bullying, you are not only stalling social evolution by advocating for the status quo, but in my opinion, turning back the clock on the evolution of civil society by sanctioning childish, unsophisticated social behaviours that are rejected as we mature, having learned how damaging bullying truly is.JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Whatever your perception of a bully is, clearly the error in your logic is that bullying cannot or should not be around. This is a decision you are making for a society based on your own individual perception of things, and this is not how it works in the real world. People congregate into groups, those outside the "group" get certain treatment. This is how it is.
Wow, kind of ironic here. You reject angelmunchkin's stance on bullying for being based on her subjective experiences. Sorry to say this but your perception of bullying is just as subjective as hers...or mine for that matter lol. It is simply a matter of whose argument is more compelling. What is more, she is advocating for a change in social attitudes where bullying is no longer tolerated, and yes, advocacy IS!!! how it works in the real world. And she is not alone in her perception of bullying. There are literally thousands of organizations and millions of people just in North America advocating against bullying.
Instead of maybe trying to force change something that is ingrained in human nature, why don't you adapt?
Bullying is ingrained in human nature? ....most...ridiculous....statement ...yet. The human brain has evolved sufficiently to the point where we are capable of making conscious choices for ourselves. We are not compelled against our will by predetermined genetic wiring to act like a-holes (hard to believe I know).
Adapt? WTF? Adapt to what? By adapt I can only assume you mean she should shrug her shoulders, give up on advocacy, stop holding people accountable for their actions, and start acting like an a-hole as well so that she fits in with an environment filled with nothing but a-holes? Ya, I am being facetious but your terminology compelled me against my will to act like an a-hole >.> <.<
It's not as if I lack the capability to understand and empathize with those who have been bullied. I have been on both ends myself, being the bully and the bullied. Perspective is absolutely wonderful. However, the inability to tell the bigger picture from it's parts is the brick wall you are going to be perpetually running into with the mentality of coulda woulda shoulda.
Yes, perspective is wonderful. Tearing down a brick wall starts with removing the first brick....one can do this by taking responsibility for one's own actions, and then start holding others accountable for thiers....that is how we as a society can continue to reduce the presence of bullying and tear down that brick wall.
From "experience", the ability to deal with a bully (there are countless means and it doesn't merely involve physical confrontation) is a far better societal resource than existence without the bully, regardless of whatever psycho-analyzing of a bully you try and do to justify elimination. Without the bully people lack the social knowledge of how to deal with the inevitability of this situation down the road, and the bigger picture is elimination of things one doesn't like to deal with does not ever make those things go away -- they only stand as a barrier to social evolution on the individual's part, which stands completely in contradiction to knowledge and betterment of social standards. The key is in "social" is that the individual is not the only factor, and that better dealing with the bully is really the only logical tool instead of elimination of the bully.
Firstly, there is nothing inevitable about bullying. Your repeated argument about the inevitability of bullying would suggest that humans are devoid of free will. Quite the contrary, each of us has the choice before us to treat others with respect and dignity or to become the bully. There is nothing inevitable about this choice.
Yes, young children still in the stages of learning social protocols, and those lacking the mental agility for empathy, may choose inappropriate behaviours but again, this is a choice that they make. It is our civic responsibility to hold people accountable for their actions, and to convey appropriate skill sets for them to learn and adopt so that bullying is not transmitted to the next generation.
Secondly, there is NO indispensable value inherent with bullying behaviour for the individual, for society, and most certainly not for the evolution of our species. Life presents us with countless "healthy" challenges and lessons that function to build our fortitude, confidence, abilities, and schema's for dealing with future challenges....bullying does NOT have to be one of them. I invite you to show me just ONE research article demonstrating why bullying is of value to society for the "healthy" life-span development of individuals, and /or contributes in a positive way to the evolution of humanity. I in turn would be happy to refer you to an endless stream of research articles, dissertations, and textbooks that reveal the terrible short-term and long-term costs of bullying on individuals and society.
Frankly, I find it depressing that anyone in this day and age would still try to excuse or justify bullying behaviour. Ultimately, we can choose to build someone up, or to tear them down.0 -
@ DeadRaven
There was no misunderstanding of the topic at hand. Obviously the misunderstanding was your misunderstanding of my posts. I'll try to be the educating middleman yet again. In fine red text.DeadRaven - Sanctuary wrote: »I can respect wanting to play devil's advocate in the interest of promoting alternative view points however, you denounce angelmunchkin for being in error with her logic, well....I call you out for being in grievous error of logic in addition to misunderstanding the topic at hand.
I would gladly counter then, as I saw some glaring errors in your post worth correcting.
Where to start.... 0.o
Yes, people do learn things from being bullied. However, bullying is NOT the only method of learning, nor is it by any measure the best teacher for such lessons. Bullying is about exercising tyranny to torment and abuse others, breaking down their confidence, self-esteem, and identity, leaving people traumatized and damaged - that is why it is called bullying. Bullying teaches both the bully and the bullied all the wrong lessons about social interactions and self-identity, respectively. Bullying has no place in the adult world ....unless you are a psychopathic dictator intent on massacring your own citizens *looks over at Moammar Gadhafi*
Invoking Gadhafi is much like invoking Godwin's law in a topic like this. It's also like telling me that I kick puppies merely because I point out quite an obvious trait of human behavior. Sure going to win over many people with that one.
First off, who said bullying is the only method of learning? Nope, not I. Although, thank you for taking the most extreme interpretation of my post to make such a silly response that much easier on yours. That sure is no logical fallacy is it?
Secondly, you don't know the reasons the person did the bullying. Stop acting as if you're the puppetmaster behind pulling their strings. Neither position you are taking here has anything to do with education. It has to do with judgment, and it has to do with assertion. Kids are in constant search of an identity and some end up identifying that way, and just about in every case that gets corrected upon reaching adulthood without intervention from police as the poster you defend thinks need to be intervening.
Some people may have the copying skills to minimize the damage, and some people will respond to being bullied by seeking out new "healthy" challenges to restore their self-identity. However, if you are going to defend bullying as a means to becoming stronger, I think you need to stop watching Hollywood movies.......bullying does not lead to becoming a kung-fu master who gets the hot girl. *did I just burst someone's bubble?*
Sorry, I don't take lessons from movies on how to act. Which movie did you think I was copying? For quoting as much as you did, you must have missed where I asserted I've been on both ends of the bullying and bullied spectrum. Life experience and raising kids sure does go a long way doesn't it?
The reason why bullying is increasingly under the microscope today is because we, as a society, have evolved sufficiently to realize that individuals are healthier, and subsequently, society is more productive if we cooperate by treating one another with respect, dignity, and embrace social justice. If you think that flinging **** at one another (speaking metaphorically, and literally in some cases, of bullying behaviour) is the best way for social evolution, then...ummm... good luck with that? By defending bullying, you are not only stalling social evolution by advocating for the status quo, but in my opinion, turning back the clock on the evolution of civil society by sanctioning immature social behaviours that most adults reject having realized how ineffectual and damaging bullying truly is.
No, bullying is increasingly under the microscope just like every social stigma. People see someone fidgety and consider that to be a social anxiety disorder. Increased autism.. there a correlation to that? It must be.. a-ha.. immunizations! No, wait, it's due to the more broadly interpreted "bullying" and more acts falling into that category. Therefore, it's under the microscope, because society today wants to bring a middleman into interpersonal relationships negating person-to-person social evolving.
Wow, kind of ironic here. You reject angelmunchkin's stance on bullying for being based on her subjective experiences. Sorry to say this but your perception of bullying is just as subjective as hers...or mine for that matter lol. It is simply a matter of whose argument is more compelling. What is more, she is advocating for a change in social attitudes where bullying is no longer tolerated, and yes, advocacy IS!!! how it works in the real world. And she is not alone in her perception of bullying. There are literally thousands of organizations and millions of people just in North America advocating against bullying.
That's great. There are also thousands of organizations declaring the US needs to bring "God" into science classes. Popularity =/= correct. And no, they are not advocating for social change, they are advocating something that has always been in society to simply vanish because of their excessively angry and biased views against what possible lessons bullying can teach not only to the person being bullied but to the person doing the bullying too.
Bullying is ingrained in human nature? ....most...ridiculous....statement ...yet. The human brain has evolved sufficiently to the point where we are capable of making conscious choices for ourselves. We are not compelled against our will by predetermined genetic wiring to act like a-holes (hard to believe I know).
Yep, human nature.. when an activity so commonly exists throughout human society and throughout different cultures, it's considered normal behavior. It isn't inherently acceptable just because it's normal, but I fully expect you to conveniently blow this part off as you haven't read or understood at all what you're responding to. It's also human nature to be violent. It would be like someone saying "I want to eliminate killers or angry people from the gene pool". Good effing luck.
Adapt? WTF? Adapt to what? By adapt I can only assume you mean she should shrug her shoulders, give up on advocacy, stop holding people accountable for their actions, and start acting like an a-hole as well so that she fits in with an environment filled with nothing but a-holes? Ya, I am being facetious but your terminology compelled me against my will to act like an a-hole >.> <.<
This is the worst confusion on your part. First off, I'm some Hollywood Kung Fu master telling people to fight a bully, now I'm suddenly telling people to be a bully and give up on defending themselves against bullying, or holding bullies accountable for their actions? Make up your mind please. It isn't all of the above.
Yes, perspective is wonderful. Tearing down a brick wall starts with removing the first brick....one can do this by taking responsibility for one's own actions, and then start holding others accountable for thiers....that is how we as a society can continue to reduce the presence of bullying.
This isn't a brick wall. Running into a brick wall, much like you are, is more applicable. You can't remove every bully from society. In fact, it can be said the efforts to remove one bully easily makes way for another to take it's place. If you ever want to reduce the presence of bullying, start off by reducing the contemporary, increasingly broad defined usage of bullying. Taking responsibility for one's actions is exactly how the bully learns. They get negative feedback from doing the act, much like the hot stove analogy which seemed to pass over your head too.
Firstly, there is nothing inevitable about bullying. Your repeated argument about the inevitability of bullying would suggest that humans are devoid of free will. Quite the contrary, each of us has the choice before us to treat others with respect and dignity or to become the bully. There is nothing inevitable about this choice.
No, it is not the suggestion that there is no free will. This is another weird interpretation you flew off into no-man's-land with. Bullying is inevitable, due to the fact that it is so commonplace.
Yes, young children still in the stages of learning social protocols, and those lacking the mental agility for empathy, may choose inappropriate behaviours but again, this is a choice that they make. It is our civic responsibility to hold people accountable for their actions, and to convey appropriate skill sets for them to learn and adopt so that bullying is not transmitted to the next generation.
Secondly, there is NO indispensable value inherent with bullying behaviour for the individual, for society, and most certainly not for the evolution of our species. Life presents us with countless "healthy" challenges and lessons that function to build our fortitude, confidence, abilities, and schema's for dealing with future challenges....bullying does NOT have to be one of them. I invite you to show me just ONE research article demonstrating why bullying is of value to society for the "healthy" life-span development of individuals, and /or contributes in a positive way to the evolution of humanity. I in turn would be happy to refer you to an endless stream or research articles, dissertations, and textbooks that reveal the terrible short-term and long-term costs of bullying on individuals and society.
I can easily give other dissertations, research articles, and so forth.. it all comes with a thesis concerning the topic of bullying for a psychology course, and likely one I'll cover again during further ECE-related courses.
Of course, show me where I make the statement that bullying is necessary for healthy development and I'll gladly show you research to that end. I don't expect you to come up with that, because again, you made up your own criteria based on your own blatant misunderstanding of what I'm posting. Common theme here.
Frankly, I find it depressing that anyone in this day and age would still try to excuse or justify bullying behaviour. Ultimately, we can choose to build someone up, or to tear them down.
I find it depressing that after two long posts, someone could still manage to fail to even comprehend what they are responding to. I haven't suggested bullying is a necessary element in society, nor have I said it is completely unnecessary. However, when talking about dealing with bullies, you need the bully in the equation and the exposure to being bullied to be able to know and better understand how to deal with it. That is social evolution, not eliminating the bully and poo-pooing off people who can see where their immature actions can be considered widespread and normal within the constraint of kids and learning from mistakes. Once again, I don't think you can fathom this, even after it's repeated to you. I fully expect yet another response suggesting that I love bullies, kick puppies, eat babies, and worship Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Satan. Oh, and for the umpteenth time.. excuse their behavior.
b:bye0 -
I am too tired to go into this one in depth so I will just point out the obvious flaws in your post.JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Wrong. Yes you are talking about the morality of bulling when you suggest that it's not ok to bully people (how one conducts themselves is the very definition of morality) and that it should be eliminated from society.
Wrong. She is not just talking about the morality of bullying, she also discusses quite clearly the objective reality that bullying is harmful. Every research article/textbook/dissertation that I have ever come across has categorically denounced bullying for the damage it inflicts on an individual's mental well-being and their subsequent productivity as members of society. There is no denying that bullying is an issue of morality, but it is also one of practical consequences which angelmunchkin alludes to frequently.
And who really does most of the bullying? Kids do. That's how kids learn. They poke around and sometimes they get hurt, sometimes they run into things they don't like. You can tell every kid you see on planet Earth not to stick their hand on the hot stove but a rather good number of them have to experience it to actually learn from the mistake. Your suggestion is to slap some cuffs on kids because it's technically illegal? That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. No wonder you got all personal and said I kick puppies. Nothing but emotional bull, and the repeated nonsense of suggesting I love it when bullies knock people around when I've stated several times that I don't think they are inherently good nor do I think they're inherently evil either.
I read her post and I don't see anything about a specific age range. I don't know about legal practices in your country but kids/youth above the age of 12 (I think it is 10 in most U.S. states but don't quote me) can be charged with a crime. Thus, "slapping on the cuffs" and sending kids/youth to a juvenile detention center is actually common practice....even if it isn't a good idea in your opinion (personally, I support alternative sentencing measures for youth as well). However, I certainly believe in holding people accountable for their actions...including kids of all ages. *refer to material on natural consequences to find just one example of an appropriate parenting strategy for dealing with young children and bullying.
How about let's get more information on what causes bullying to try and prevent more of the underlying causes that aren't merely natural? I don't see you trying to think up anything constructive. Wow, let's teach kids manners? They're fricken kids. You think around other kids they're going to overly consider manners their parents taught at home? Very very few.
Yummm.... causes that are merely natural? WTF? Okay, yes, young children will be inclined to practice/mimic learned behaviours that they have observed as well as explore innovative ways of engaging with their social environment but that is where social modeling, education, and appropriate disciplinary strategies come into play to teach children appropriate and successful social skills. Needless to say however, parents are not the only influence on a child. In the end, each individual will have to make their own choices about how to behave. But yes, manners taught at home certainly have the potential to influence the development of social behaviours practiced outside of the home.
But if anything your posts does teach us something -- that there are plenty of people living in a dream world where you can just erase things you don't like and magically people will suddenly learn the evils of bullying without ever experiencing the bully. Even better, rather than like 99%+ of the bullies learning that bullying is wrong (and growing out of it) as they do already, let's just slap a criminal record on them so they can have a less chance of finding a job, and be more apt to turn to crime. Oh right, the bully bullied someone.. they obviously are devoid of feelings and humanity as well.
I don't know about your country but here... youth criminal records do not carry over into adulthood. I don't support incarceration either for youth but I do believe in holding even youth accountable for their behaviour.
What really concerns me is parents and society teaching kids to be afraid of other people, and afraid of standing on their own two feet. This does not promote someone to go out in the real world and have the confidence to succeed and accomplish things on their own. It's going to make them scared and seek third party intervention when it's something more often than not they can handle on their own.
As I have already stated, a statement I might add that is supported by every bit of scholarly research on this topic, bullying breaks down peoples identity, self-esteem, and confidence. Bullying is regressive not progressive to preparing people to face challenges and success in the world. I am getting seriously confused why you keep to this argument that emotionally damaged individuals are going to be better prepared to face future challenges than someone who is emotionally healthy, confident, and secure in their identity.
No, 2% is 2%. That's not too much or less. That's just a number. It isn't possible to be 0%. It isn't worth the effort to make it 0%. It's worth the effort to simply educate kids on how to deal with bullies.
And unfortunately, not everyone was created equal. Sadly, some kids get more traumatizing experiences. Bullying has always been in society. Someone not being able to handle something that occurs in society normally is quite a minority of people, and it is similar to the notion that some kids are also incapable of dealing with video games, telling the difference between fiction and reality. Going the dumb and impossible task of trying to eliminate (or in your brilliant idea, lock up) bullies, or eliminate video games, one must teach the person who deals with them to adapt to something that society will never get rid of. Part of that has to do with parenting and schooling, paying attention to how a person interacts with others, or in the analogy with video games, how they interact with that. You have entirely the wrong approach. For anyone else, go 180 degrees of what this poster is suggesting, and you'll likely be on a more correct path.
*corrected* "Bullying occurs with high frequency in some sectors and subcultures of certain societies throughout various periods in time"0 -
/10charDeadRaven - Sanctuary wrote: »Wrong. She is not just talking about the morality of bullying, she also discusses quite clearly the objective reality that bullying is harmful. Every research article/textbook/dissertation that I have ever come across has categorically denounced bullying for the damage it inflicts on an individual's mental well-being and their subsequent productivity as members of society. There is no denying that bullying is an issue of morality, but it is also one of practical consequences which angelmunchkin alludes to frequently.
When you talk about removing bullying from society, as has been the case, when you're talking about putting bullies in jail, yes, that's a morality issue, regardless of their admitting to it -- not a requirement for a logical assertion.
Bullying can cause these things. It is not inherently harmful to each person it comes across, and those who it affects worse either are extreme victims or had some issue personally that didn't allow them to learn from what happened or deal with it properly.
I read her post and I don't see anything about a specific age range. I don't know about legal practices in your country but kids/youth above the age of 12 (I think it is 10 in most U.S. states but don't quote me) can be charged with a crime. Thus, "slapping on the cuffs" and sending kids/youth to a juvenile detention center is actually common practice....even if it isn't a good idea in your opinion (personally, I support alternative sentencing measures for youth as well). However, I certainly believe in holding people accountable for their actions...including kids of all ages. *refer to material on natural consequences to find just one example of an appropriate parenting strategy for dealing with young children and bullying.
No? Might wanna check the paragraph about manners. There's your age range.. children is descriptive enough.
And no, slapping cuffs on children for bullying is not common practice (though given these hyperbolic examples I don't doubt the more pansified society gets, the more likely this becomes the case), otherwise, given the enormously high frequency of bullying, there'd be quite a huge number of children with a criminal record.
Sending a kid off to a juvenile detention center for doing something a rather large number of children do is not a solution nor does it teach the kid it's wrong. It doesn't even address why the kid is bullying in the first place. While I can see you've covered the wildly varying effects bullying may have on people, you, and others more focused on exacting revenge upon what you perceive as a bully, aren't considering the causes of why a bully actually bullies people.
Yummm.... causes that are merely natural? WTF? Okay, yes, young children will be inclined to practice/mimic learned behaviours that they have observed as well as explore innovative ways of engaging with their social environment but that is where social modeling, education, and appropriate disciplinary strategies come into play to teach children appropriate and successful social skills. Needless to say however, parents are not the only influence on a child. In the end, each individual will have to make their own choices about how to behave. But yes, manners taught at home certainly have the potential to influence the development of social behaviours practiced outside of the home.
That's certainly right. Parents are an influence but aren't the only influence. However, while you started off nicely on looking into parents as one possible culprit of behavior, you then went back to the silly "they need to make their own choices". Well, duh, but then again, this is about learning.
I don't know about your country but here... youth criminal records do not carry over into adulthood. I don't support incarceration either for youth but I do believe in holding even youth accountable for their behaviour.
As I have already stated, a statement I might add that is supported by every bit of scholarly research on this topic, bullying breaks down peoples identity, self-esteem, and confidence. Bullying is regressive not progressive to preparing people to face challenges and success in the world. I am getting seriously confused why you keep to this argument that emotionally damaged individuals are going to be better prepared to face future challenges than someone who is emotionally healthy, confident, and secure in their identity.
My statements can be backed up with scholarly research too but obviously your research is going to be aimed at one thing and mine another. I don't think you realize you aren't even addressing the same thing I am.
And no I have not specifically mentioned emotionally damaged individuals. Do we really wanna cover **** and other possibly emotionally damaging instances? Maybe add up a percentage of people who encounter possibly emotionally damaging occurrences? Do these people suddenly lose their ability to function in society? Obviously by in large most do not.
More often than not, it does create emotional responses which one can carry with them for the rest of their lives, but certainly both you and the OP have blown off the social learning that comes with both bullying and being bullied. Most people do not learn by simply telling them things. They learn through experience. This is supported by the fact that almost everyone gets bullied. Yet, only a rather few cannot handle that, and while some of those few I'm sure can be extreme cases that merit such hostility toward the bully, it can also be levied that a person has difficulty already dealing with something that is inherently prevalent in human cultures -- all of them, and is never going away. While I can see the logic behind trying to lower the instances of bullying, it doesn't serve nearly as useful an education device to let kids learn how to deal with bullies first hand. In the bullying classes I took only one time did it ever mention to go tell an adult, and that's because in by far most cases knowing how to handle a bully is going to be the difference between ending the issue there, or possibly dragging it on, inviting more bullying, or worse.
*corrected* "Bullying occurs with high frequency in some sectors and subcultures of certain societies throughout various periods in time"
*corrected* Bullying has always been in society, regardless of how you wish to break it down. It is also something that will always be in society. Therefore, learn how to deal with it, educate yourself, instead of wishing for it to be removed. Simple solution to the OP. Obviously not for everyone. b:pleased0 -
Wow, what a marathon read this thread has been. I'm a little saddened why people seem to deliberately misunderstand each other, somewhat ironic given the thread topic. As with many things in life, generalisations can be unhelpful, and sometimes definitions can keep people from reaching to the core of an issue. Bullying has indeed been with us forever, it is, unfortunately, a natural consequence of certain social pressures and situations. Aggressive behaviour is indeed sometimes a survival response, and the primitive part of the human brain responsible remains extant. However, unlike wild animals which do not appear to have the capacity to reason, human beings do. This, of course only makes the advent of bullying all the more sad, as people who are capable of understanding that what they are doing is wrong continue to behave in an unacceptable manner.
Locking children up for bullying; this is quite an emotive and provocative thing to advocate. First, please define 'child'. This will be different in a legal sense depending on where you live in the world, and therefore becomes an unhelpful term. Next, assuming we can come to a common view as to what constitutes a child ( I'm referring to age of course, just to be absolutely clear), then to say we should lock children up for being bullies is as dangerous a generalisation as saying children should never be locked up for whatever behaviour they exhibit. Some will learn by feedback from their peers or parents not to behave this way, others will not. If you believe that bullying does not have the potential for serious consequences, I say to you; Columbine, if you are from the US; Jamie Bulger if you are in the UK.
Finally, let's consider what happens when people become adults and have not learned that their behaviour is unacceptable, because their victims either are too frightened to tell, or the behaviour has been of a low enough level to escape serious censure. Yes, it is still possible that they may realise the error of their ways and reform, but it is also possible that their behaviour will continue unabated or even escalate if they are not confronted and challenged to change. Once again, if you wish to look you can find numerous examples of the often horrific results of bullying amongst 'adults'.
In summary, generalise at your peril. Each situation should be examined on its individual merits. Bullying is something I personally abhor, but catch all solutions are a contradiction in terms: they just don't.I have Luke Skywalker on a wibble-wobble; your argument is invalid
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
Don't call me a care bear; I don't care whether you can bear me or not
Sparafucile: SweetieBot, pple is NOT a word
SweetieBot: Your face is not a word0 -
man, reading through this thread I almost forgot what the first post was about.
Since everyone here is distracted maybe I can shine some light on my own experience.
I was bullied a lot as the "new kid" and then as the "outsider" from I believe, 4th through 7th grade.
Out with the obvious, bullying hurts people's feelings. It sure as hell hurt mine, and also hurt my body as I did get beat up a few times.
Of course in this society, as soon as a child has a problem with another child, the adults run in like untrained EMTs. They work with this coddling method that Janus speaks of. Never in my life have I seen it result in any good.
When bullying is undertaken with this popular modern attitude about them, nothing gets solved. Oh yes, I told adults because it's what I was told to do, but there is reason to fear retribution because 98% of the time , if you tell on a bully, it will happen. LOL what you think that anti bully bracelets, or bored parents taking up causes by implementing poorly thought of trend solutions will actually solve anything?
The "adult" solutions never worked for me.
What did work in my experience, only proves what Janus was saying. I handled my own ****. I dealt with the bullies myself. I developed the ability to calm people who where upset and ready to fight, even to reason with them and reach peace. The worst bully of my school years ended up becoming my friend because I decided to handle my own **** and actually talk to her myself. After that talk, I realized what the insecurities were that caused her to treat me as she did. I sympathized with her and ended any problems the two of us had.
Now, I did have times when I wasn't feeling so open to actually solving things, I did have a time when I became angry and less civil. At this time, getting bullied and handling it on my own taught me how to fight lol. I don't recommend this at all xD but my main point in stating this is that if I didn't solve a bully issue, it's because I didn't feel like it.
Thanks to my experiences and handling of bullies on my own, without bringing in adults in authority for their useless psuedo-solutions, I learned the ability to end fights. And to prevent them at all. This has come in handy a lot, especially in my high school years now past, my friends were a bunch of rowdy boys always lookin to scrap, I saved us all some grief many times over.
Due to my experiences in bullying and learning from it, I must say I agree with Janus in his first response before things got all argumentive and tl;dr-ish ...lol. This coddling method of handling bullying doesn't do much help to kids, imo. All it does is teach them to lay their problems in the hands of someone else who likely was taught to do the same thing. I attribute many issues in society with this fear of handling ones own problems. I mean ffs, fairly recently in teh US the police were called to settle a fight between two grade school sisters...seriously? The police were needed for that?? pathetic if you ask me. One of the little girls had to be charged, that excessive if you ask me, I mean sisters fight all the time I should know xD. So what? We are going to send bullies to jail too now? So they can go in for what is likely just mischief and come out knowing how to be better criminals? Please.
Bullying is a common issue,sometimes it can get out of hand, then outside help is needed, but for the most part, I believe it's a part of life that helps kids adjust and adapt and learn how to handle other people. I believe its magnitude has been blown out of proportion, its severity as well. I consider it healthier overall, for a child to learn to deal with it,and by deal with it I mean really deal with it, not just suck it up and bottle it up or run to the adults.
This attitude about bullying many carry these days,along with the ways of dealing with them, are I believe, only based on trendyness and have little or no basis in actual positive results.
There I said it0 -
I'm glad that you found a solution that worked for you, but the fact remains that this is not the case for everyone, and that children and adults alike do commit suicide because they cannot cope, some bullies do escalate to crimes like rapine and murder, and some people do need help in standing up to bullies. As I stated previously, generalisation is unhelpful.I have Luke Skywalker on a wibble-wobble; your argument is invalid
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
Don't call me a care bear; I don't care whether you can bear me or not
Sparafucile: SweetieBot, pple is NOT a word
SweetieBot: Your face is not a word0 -
My responses to JanusZeal are in red, his post is in the neutral color
There was no misunderstanding of the topic at hand. Obviously the misunderstanding was your misunderstanding of my posts. I'll try to be the educating middleman yet again.
Thanks, that made me laugh b:chuckle
Invoking Gadhafi is much like invoking Godwin's law in a topic like this. It's also like telling me that I kick puppies merely because I point out quite an obvious trait of human behavior. Sure going to win over many people with that one.
Yes, I made a flippant allusion to illustrate bullying gone to the extreme...but it nonetheless has contemporary relevant (and thus is NOT comparable to invoking Godwin's Law) to illustrate why bullying is morally and practically unacceptable, and has insufficient redeeming qualities to justify its tolerance. What is more, I said nothing about you kicking puppies... why bring in something from another poster into this discussion, that's just lame on your part. And lastly, you are now intorducing trait theory for a discussion on bullying? Now I know with certainty that you are not qualified for this discussion *sigh*
First off, who said bullying is the only method of learning? Nope, not I. Although, thank you for taking the most extreme interpretation of my post to make such a silly response that much easier on yours. That sure is no logical fallacy is it?
Firstly, nowhere in my post do I accuse you of making the claim that bulling is the only form of learning. I merely state the fact that it is not the only form of learning to debunk the merit you attribute to bullying as a source of learning as rational for its tolerance within society. Although, thank you for taking the most extreme interpretation of my post to make such a silly response. >.>
Secondly, you don't know the reasons the person did the bullying. Stop acting as if you're the puppetmaster behind pulling their strings. Neither position you are taking here has anything to do with education. It has to do with judgment, and it has to do with assertion. Kids are in constant search of an identity and some end up identifying that way, and just about in every case that gets corrected upon reaching adulthood without intervention from police as the poster you defend thinks need to be intervening.
You are right, I don't know the reason for why specific individuals engage in bullying though I am aware of what some of the research unveils about potential causal factors behind some forms of bullying behaviour. However, NOWHERE do I make this claim. *sigh* Nor do I make any pretense about being a puppet master pulling strings... okay that is just freaking weird why you went there... kinda reaching now aren't ya? I think part of the problem here is that we are operating on different positions on the spectrum of bullying. Acts of bullying fall on a continuum of severity to be sure. Children and youth will engage in exploratory social roles and schema's, and test the limits of social norms. This is not what I am discussing (nor what most others are discussing) when addressing the issue of bullying. Please try to stick to the topic. Please refer to my brief, quasi definition/explanation of bullying if you are confused about what bullying is...or offer you perception of bullying so we can better understand what you think bullying constitutes.
Sorry, I don't take lessons from movies on how to act. Which movie did you think I was copying? For quoting as much as you did, you must have missed where I asserted I've been on both ends of the bullying and bullied spectrum. Life experience and raising kids sure does go a long way doesn't it?
Actually, I was not directly referring to you watching a movie but if you wish to read it that way, fine by me. Yes, I agree, life experience and raising kids does go a long way....especially when it comes to realizing the kind of damage bullying can do, and understanding why there is such a concerted, hard-fought effort by parents, teachers, social workers, politicians, academics, and mental health workers to reduce its presence in all corners of society
No, bullying is increasingly under the microscope just like every social stigma. People see someone fidgety and consider that to be a social anxiety disorder. Increased autism.. there a correlation to that? It must be.. a-ha.. immunizations! No, wait, it's due to the more broadly interpreted "bullying" and more acts falling into that category. Therefore, it's under the microscope, because society today wants to bring a middleman into interpersonal relationships negating person-to-person social evolving.
Ummm...sorry, but this mostly just reads as rambling with a paranoid conspiracy accusation. However, ya, I will agree that bullying is under the microscope like many other social stigmas, you got that much right. Why? Because of our increased knowledge and awareness for the harm it causes thanks in large part of the weighty research that has been conducted into the matter over the past several decades...research which I am thoroughly convinced you are unfamiliar with.
That's great. There are also thousands of organizations declaring the US needs to bring "God" into science classes. Popularity =/= correct. And no, they are not advocating for social change, they are advocating something that has always been in society to simply vanish because of their excessively angry and biased views against what possible lessons bullying can teach not only to the person being bullied but to the person doing the bullying too.
You are right, popularity =/=correct... because what is perceived as correct is subjective...never made any claims to the contrary. Yes, it is advocating for social change .....exerting efforts to change social norms/policies, in this case a reduction in the rate of bullying particularly within schools...that is called advocating for social change 0.o
Excessively angry and biased views? Not sure where the excessively angry statement is coming from. Anti-bullying movements find their roots and support from the findings of academic research.... to say nothing of the observations of countless parents, teachers, and social workers who have witnessed, and deal with the consequences of bullying first hand. As for biased... well of course we are biased *confused face* Every human being is biased in one way or another. In this case, I am biased by the research I have read, by the years spent in university doing degrees in psychology, sociology, and social work, and by the working professionals that I have talked to (which includes many of my colleagues).
Yep, human nature.. when an activity so commonly exists throughout human society and throughout different cultures, it's considered normal behavior. It isn't inherently acceptable just because it's normal, but I fully expect you to conveniently blow this part off as you haven't read or understood at all what you're responding to. It's also human nature to be violent. It would be like someone saying "I want to eliminate killers or angry people from the gene pool". Good effing luck.
You were almost right, I did think about blowing this off because quite frankly, anyone that goes to that place of claiming, "its human nature," does so for failure of having a meaningful argument to make. Saying that something is "human nature" is a nice and convenient way of rationalizing something - anything - without giving it any serious critical thought or explanation.
Yes, humans do experience internal forces (hunger, thirst, hormones, etc.) and external forces (laws, cultural beliefs, etc.) pressing them to behave in often predicable ways which leads to perceivable social norms of behaviour. However, as I have stated repeated, despite such forces pressing us to behave in a certain manner, there is nothing inevitable about the choices we eventually make, as you would suggest about bullying by bringing up trait theory and claiming the flimsy argument of it being "human nature". Once you accept that humans are capable of making conscious choices for themselves, it suddenly becomes a lot harder to blow off bullying behaviour as some how "natural' or "inevitable". I should not have to point out the obvious but society's structure and all of its social norms are made by the conscious decisions we have all made. I have a suggestion, how about we trying to hold people accountable for their actions? 0.o
This is the worst confusion on your part. First off, I'm some Hollywood Kung Fu master telling people to fight a bully, now I'm suddenly telling people to be a bully and give up on defending themselves against bullying, or holding bullies accountable for their actions? Make up your mind please. It isn't all of the above.
ROLF. Nice twisted interpretation, made me laugh.
Given the context in which you recommend angelmunchkin "adapt", it suggests just what I wrote... that she simply give on her efforts to pursue social change and accept bullying. Without any clarification on your part, how else is that passage to be interpreted? Anyways, I was indeed making fun of your choice of terms - adapt, silly as it is but I suppose it fits logically with the "human nature" discourse that you rely on.
This isn't a brick wall. Running into a brick wall, much like you are, is more applicable. You can't remove every bully from society. In fact, it can be said the efforts to remove one bully easily makes way for another to take it's place. If you ever want to reduce the presence of bullying, start off by reducing the contemporary, increasingly broad defined usage of bullying. Taking responsibility for one's actions is exactly how the bully learns. They get negative feedback from doing the act, much like the hot stove analogy which seemed to pass over your head too.
ummm....it isn't a brick wall? I was just going with your analogy lol. *sigh* this was fun at first but now your logic is just getting too bizarre to really bother responding to... but I will finish what I started. I agree, it is not likely to "remove" every bully from society... but then I never claimed to do so, nor would I want to "remove" even one bully from society. I never suggested anything about removing people. I am talking about education, social modeling, positive parenting, natural consequences, etc. to help reduce rates of bullying and subsequently reduce its transmission to the next generation, a potential cycle of progress to minimize the presence of bullying in society. Claiming that "removing" one bully makes room for another is just a lame excuse to do nothing.
Ya, I got the stove analogy *sigh* fine lets go there. A person does not have to touch a stove to learn it gets hot......and a person does not have to become a bully, or be bullied, to learn that bullying is wrong because of the harm it causes *sigh*. It is possible to learn socially acceptable behaviours without bullying so why do you keep using this argument to rationalize its tolerance and place in society?
No, it is not the suggestion that there is no free will. This is another weird interpretation you flew off into no-man's-land with. Bullying is inevitable, due to the fact that it is so commonplace.
ummm, no, I hit the mark with this one. Inevitable (which is a term you introduced) suggests the lack of free will. I will never forget the ripping my prof gave me in my first year of university when I made the noob mistake of using the term "inevitable" in a paper. We are talking about human behaviour here... nothing is inevitable. Also commonplace =/= inevitable *rolls eyes* I will forgo the examples as I will hope *crosses fingers* that you will be able to realize your error in logic here
I can easily give other dissertations, research articles, and so forth.. it all comes with a thesis concerning the topic of bullying for a psychology course, and likely one I'll cover again during further ECE-related courses.
Give other dissertations, research articles, and so forth.??? I have not seen you give one yet... so whats this talk about others?????
Of course, show me where I make the statement that bullying is necessary for healthy development and I'll gladly show you research to that end. I don't expect you to come up with that, because again, you made up your own criteria based on your own blatant misunderstanding of what I'm posting. Common theme here.
OMFG I never accused you of making the statement that bullying is "necessary" for healthy development so ya, how am I suppose to quote something you did not write, and which I NEVER claimed you wrote 0.o. Please go back read what I wrote PROPERLY rather than constructing your own words and putting them in my mouth.
However for the record, yes, as difficult as it is to understand your posts (I am assuming English is your second language?), your post does make the argument that bullying has redeeming merit that justifies its place in society.
Here is a quote from YOUR post:
From "experience", the ability to deal with a bully (there are countless means and it doesn't merely involve physical confrontation) is a far better societal resource than existence without the bully, regardless of whatever psycho-analyzing of a bully you try and do to justify elimination. Without the bully people lack the social knowledge of how to deal with the inevitability of this situation down the road, and the bigger picture is elimination of things one doesn't like to deal with does not ever make those things go away -- they only stand as a barrier to social evolution on the individual's part, which stands completely in contradiction to knowledge and betterment of social standards.
End quote
I find it depressing that after two long posts, someone could still manage to fail to even comprehend what they are responding to. I haven't suggested bullying is a necessary element in society, nor have I said it is completely unnecessary. However, when talking about dealing with bullies, you need the bully in the equation and the exposure to being bullied to be able to know and better understand how to deal with it. That is social evolution, not eliminating the bully and poo-pooing off people who can see where their immature actions can be considered widespread and normal within the constraint of kids and learning from mistakes. Once again, I don't think you can fathom this, even after it's repeated to you. I fully expect yet another response suggesting that I love bullies, kick puppies, eat babies, and worship Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Satan. Oh, and for the umpteenth time.. excuse their behavior.
I make no claims to being an expert on bullying but I am confident in my academic background and extensive work history, which is related to this field, to claim a firm understanding of the issues at hand, as well as a firm understanding of your post, so I wont be dismissed so easily as having you suggest that I fail to comprehend it.
Your logic that bullies are needed to learn how to deal with bullies is....well, just bizarre reasoning. Speaking hypothetically to demonstrate how silly this is..... if people learn not to bully, then there is no need to learn how to deal with a bully *rolls eyes* However, lets bring this back to earth. Bullies do not "need" to be part of the equation for people are able of learning social skills and coping strategies to deal with life challenges, as well as, develop the self-esteem, confidence, and secure identity to over come future hardships quite well without the presence of bullies thank you very much. Thus, where is the rational for tolerating, justifying, or excusing bullying behaviours? What is more, experiencing bullying first hand is not needed to develop one's understanding of the bullying, or to learn coping strategies to deal with it should one experience bullying in the future. I seriously think you need to differentiate between the very real, very serious issue of bullying from the exploratory social interactions of kids that may transgress socially appropriate behaviors. We have made this distinction, but you apparently have not as you bring it up here again. Also, please stop affiliating me with things that others have said. And ya, please stop trying to excuse bullying behaviour by attempting to rationalize why it is "needed" (your word) in society.
b:bye0 -
Wow, for off topic discussion these thread turn into a serious debate. (b:shocked)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
This is getting rather silly, so unless you come up with something new, and start comprehending what you're bothering to respond in a debate to (is English your third language? I often find myself correcting your interpretations, even ones you recycle falsely about excusing behavior, even when using rather simple words).. I'm going to make a rather general response.DeadRaven - Sanctuary wrote: »[snipped]
You obviously pretend you come from a scholarly background on the subject, and really your advice is pseudo-scholarly. No scholar or even someone in touch with reality is going to suggest that "if people learn not to bully" that they don't need to learn how to deal with one. Why? Because I can't find a time where bullying didn't exist in the same prevalence in every school district where I'm from, never mind societally in children. Can you? I didn't think so. You're making a response based upon a scenario that doesn't exist -- the scenario that people will simply choose to stop bullying. Boy, if it were really that easy, bullying could have been wiped out centuries ago. You're working on the premise of elimination of bullying, which is, again, with a fairy tale result -- I'm working on the premise of dealing with it like one has to deal with other behaviors that aren't encouraged as one develops toward adulthood is how one learns to deal with it and further cope in life with the inevitability that bullying happens. Yes, there are those very few who get utterly traumatized for life about it, but society as a whole does not bend and shape itself on the weakest of individuals. It looks like to even understand bullying you first need to get over the notion that bullying is something that can truly be weeded out when it's not. Then one can formulate a response to the bullying itself, and find better ways for educating a potential bully, and to especially teach kids how to deal with the inevitability of running into someone bullying either another person or their own self. Pretending like we can just solve bullying and remove it is naive.
b:bye
I put in bold a part for you, even though I know I shouldn't be responding to someone who correlates bullying to ra.pe and murder.Sparafucile - Harshlands wrote: »I'm glad that you found a solution that worked for you, but the fact remains that this is not the case for everyone, and that children and adults alike do commit suicide because they cannot cope, some bullies do escalate to crimes like rapine and murder, and some people do need help in standing up to bullies. As I stated previously, generalisation is unhelpful.
To the other posters who refer to me, thanks. Admittedly, I've been more than susceptible to being dragged into pointless arguments, but nonetheless, it's troublesome the coddling method we've been using to try and educate kids opposed to letting them grow strong mentally to be able to deal with adulthood responsibly.0 -
The only thing I have left to say about this thread is anyone who suicides over a bully is plain stupid. *not flaming*
The reason why I say this is because the bullies want to get to you. What other way would they know they accomplished it aside from you killing yourself? Then what happens? The bullies move on to the next victim? Yeah, you really taught them.
The next time anyone gets bullied, they should be standing up for themselves, instead of acting dumb and doing something they can never take back. Life is different after high school, things can get better or they can get worse. But you can't justify high school as a reason to kill yourself.
If you find you can't befriend the bully, you can make friends with tougher people. I found myself a girl that didn't take **** from anyone in home-ec and we were friends throughout the 9th grade, where the majority of my bullying years lay. After a few weeks of being around her, I adopted her attitude towards other people who said something about her, and I can honestly say it helped a lot.
But suicide is a loser's way out, someone who doesn't try to push forward through the bad struggles and decides to be selfish enough to end their own life. They don't think about their mother or father or the little sister that looks up to them when they do it. Instead of getting help, they decide that it'll be the best way out, when infact, had you stayed alive and stood up to the bully, you may change another kid's life, who would have been the next victim.
And yes, I have dealt first hand with a suicide attempt from bullying when I walked in on my brother holding his gun to his head. So don't go saying that I have no clue what I'm talking about because I didn't have it bad and never tried to suicide. It's just as bad, and I still believe it's a coward's way out.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
˙buoɹʇs ǝq ןן,ı ʇɐɥʇ ɟןǝsʎɯ ןןǝʇ ı os0 -
NiightmareXz - Harshlands wrote: »The only thing I have left to say about this thread is anyone who suicides over a bully is plain stupid. *not flaming*
The reason why I say this is because the bullies want to get to you. What other way would they know they accomplished it aside from you killing yourself? Then what happens? The bullies move on to the next victim? Yeah, you really taught them.
The next time anyone gets bullied, they should be standing up for themselves, instead of acting dumb and doing something they can never take back. Life is different after high school, things can get better or they can get worse. But you can't justify high school as a reason to kill yourself.
If you find you can't befriend the bully, you can make friends with tougher people. I found myself a girl that didn't take **** from anyone in home-ec and we were friends throughout the 9th grade, where the majority of my bullying years lay. After a few weeks of being around her, I adopted her attitude towards other people who said something about her, and I can honestly say it helped a lot.
But suicide is a loser's way out, someone who doesn't try to push forward through the bad struggles and decides to be selfish enough to end their own life. They don't think about their mother or father or the little sister that looks up to them when they do it. Instead of getting help, they decide that it'll be the best way out, when infact, had you stayed alive and stood up to the bully, you may change another kid's life, who would have been the next victim.
And yes, I have dealt first hand with a suicide attempt from bullying when I walked in on my brother holding his gun to his head. So don't go saying that I have no clue what I'm talking about because I didn't have it bad and never tried to suicide. It's just as bad, and I still believe it's a coward's way out.
That has got to be the most callus and cold-hearted thing I have read in this thread, so far... the bullies (AND YOU) do not know what may be transpiring in the victims life BESIDES being bullied. Not everyone is strong and all powerful and able to handle being tormented and pushed around. AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN (playground bullies). MOST bullying is not done by children, it's done by people of the age of accountability... and yes, that includes some minors.
Thank you to those who have supported my views in this thread and even given more in-depth information and facts about the effects of bullying... I can't handle anymore of the "treating people badly is ok" and "make everyone else adapt so that the bullies can continue to bully" attitudes... so I'm out. This person (the one I quoted) actually made me angry and when I get angry, it's time for me to leave."People are capable of kindness beyond angels, yet we also commit sins that would put a demon to shame... We all stand precariously on the edge between darkness and light... And when we fall, we are greeted by only madness and chaos." ~Raogrimm: Galkan Talekeeper, FFXI.0 -
angelmunchkin wrote: »That has got to be the most callus and cold-hearted thing I have read in this thread, so far... the bullies (AND YOU) do not know what may be transpiring in the victims life BESIDES being bullied. Not everyone is strong and all powerful and able to handle being tormented and pushed around. AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN (playground bullies). MOST bullying is not done by children, it's done by people of the age of accountability... and yes, that includes some minors.
Thank you to those who have supported my views in this thread and even given more in-depth information and facts about the effects of bullying... I can't handle anymore of the "treating people badly is ok" and "make everyone else adapt so that the bullies can continue to bully" attitudes... so I'm out. This person (the one I quoted) actually made me angry and when I get angry, it's time for me to leave.
Maybe I worded it wrong. Well yes, I did, and I will admit it. Wording isn't my strong suit, I'm sorry to have offended you and anyone else who took offense to it. I would appreciate if you would edit it out of your quote.
The rest of my post I stand by; I was raised to believe suicide is the stupidest thing to do and a coward's way out. Bullying is bad but I still don't jusify it as a good reason to suicide. And no one ever said bullying is okay, Janus said it was a part of life, which it is, it's bound to happen. You can try to get rid of it, like racism, but after how many years since blacks rebeled against the white majority do we still have racism? No one says to turn a blind eye to bullying, but there's nothing we can do to stop it. There's no way there can be someone at every bullying spot at all hours of the day in hopes to catch a bully. There's always going to be that one insecure person that wants to make other people feel as bad as they do, it's human nature. But that doesn't mean you should be taking your life over it. People just tend to throw in the towel and say it's over too soon, when they don't ask for any help or try to fix the problem themselves. Instead of doing that, they do something drastic and think it's the best thing to do, but it never is. It doesn't faze the bullies that they hurt the person, that's what they want. When the realise they get under your skin, they don't stop. They keep doing it until they get bored of you or you stop them. But unless you stop them, they won't stop, and will just move on to terrorize another person.
Another thing that is annoying me, is you keep saying the bullies don't know what else is going on in the people they bully lifes. Did you ever stop to think about what the bullies might be going through? They are victims themselves, whether it be from self esteem issues or bullying in their own home enviroment. I remember once I was jealous of my cousin's body, so I called her anorexic without a thought because of how skinny she is, and she went over to my grandmother's a cried her eyes out about it. Never have I felt so bad as to bully someone, especially since I didn't realise I was doing it. But just because the person getting bullied may have something wrong with them, doesn't mean the bully doesn't have anything wrong with them. Why do you think they are bullying in the first place? It's to make them feel more secure and/or to release pent up anger they have towards another person. While it's important to help a victim, it is also important to find the reason why the bully is being a bully.
But there is never a way to eliminate bullying. There's always going to be bad people in the world, and with those bad people we will have the bullies, the rapists, the drug dealers and robbers. We can't change other people even if we want to, but we can change how we deal with these people.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
˙buoɹʇs ǝq ןן,ı ʇɐɥʇ ɟןǝsʎɯ ןןǝʇ ı os0
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