Sage or Demon Barbarian

2

Comments

  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Wow, I did all the calculations and the difference between demon and sage in tiger form really is only about 9-12%. I thought it was alot more since demon tigers always seem to hold aggro better in squads, and when I went demon I felt like I had a bigger dmg bump then 10%. I thought it was adjust like a reverse amp, where it was calculated by cutting current damage in half, but I was wrong.

    So as far as aggro and damage output goes its not a huge difference except for 10% more dmg and a more spammable flesh ream. Look at all your skills and make to your playstyle. I obviously still prefer demon over sage because I feel demon rounded out the week points of the build where sage makes the strong points slightly stronger. I also like the versatility of going fist.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Sirsmokealot - Raging Tide
    Sirsmokealot - Raging Tide Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I have never ever regretted going sage and I am just as good in PVP as a demon barb and quite often beat Demon barbs of equal or higher level.

    My gear is not great (http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0a65f421a2d03a23) and I am not lvl 100 I do have what I see as the most important sage skills axe hammer mastery, fleash ream, true form, shape shifting and working on Beast Kings Inspiration. There are a few others but stuffs expensive right now.

    People will always big up there own class and there own path choice but the truth of it is no two players in the game are the same you will find most of these people in here screaming sage is better or demon is better are heavily refined/sharded and OP geared barbs that probably pick on badly geared barbs to prove there points.

    I have never been one for statistics for mathematics so I don't get tied up in all that x = y +p =G2 stuff I do have a problem holding aggro but unless your a claw barb your gonna keep having that problem I don't really want to just be there to spam Devour and do weak damage in tiger form it's sad to see the class that helped most of these OP people get to where they are today pushed aside but ain't nothing we can do about it... But I am deviating from your question.

    Sage or Demon?

    Let us know how you like to play what your end goals are and by that time the answer should be screaming out at you.
    02/07/2011 - Lost paitence with PWI sold all my gear bought packs and wasted my coin till it was gone... goodbye PWI b:bye
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    My post was assuming a pure tiger build for both sides. And it was also addressing the accusations that a demon tiger build was better at holding aggro, which is a complete myth.

    My personal build is a slight hybrid with slightly more str than a pure vit build. My dex is capped at 50 and even then I still manage to have 18% crit rate (artificially) with weapons and ornaments. Most vit built demon barbs don't even have that since most of those are trying to close the gap between the hp loss from demon true form.

    The only way a demon barbs higher crit rate would affect aggro holding any better than a sage is if they switched back and forth between upright/tiger spamming titans and onslaught, which in most scenarios, would instantly get them killed.

    I'm Demon, I have 17k hp in tiger form, 13k phys def with my own buffs and 21% crit. I do full damage in tiger form.

    I will take aggro from you any time you wish.

    Myth, my ***.

    RedMenace

    \both builds are fine, and do the job
    \\but I don't presume that I do everything better, like you do
    \\\I don't know everything, but I *know* you know less
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Freizer - Lost City
    Freizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm Demon, I have 17k hp in tiger form
    Only 17k? my sympathies.

    , 13k phys def with my own buffs and 21% crit. I do full damage in tiger form.
    13K? that's also pretty low for a 101 barb

    I will take aggro from you any time you wish.
    and I could take aggro right back from you. Two barbs going at it in tiger form against a boss usually just comes down who's got better timing on fleshreme

    Myth, my ***.
    That's not very nice :/

    RedMenace

    \both builds are fine, and do the job
    \\but I don't presume that I do everything better, like you do
    \\\I don't know everything, but I *know* you know less
    there's some quote somewhere about throwing stones, or birds or just in general idiots doing idiotic things but I really can't be bothered to look it up right now.
    quote filler
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • Furries - Dreamweaver
    Furries - Dreamweaver Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    im surprised i havent posted here already.
    there are definite benefits to both sides
    here is a previous post i made
    everyone knows a sage barb does more damage in human form and a demon barb does more damage in tiger. but when soloing or doing pvp there is a catch.

    sage barb may have slightly more damage in human form and slightly more def in tiger.

    but it means u have to choose...

    to do max damage u have to forefit all tiger form advantages u got for going sage and stay human.

    to be tiger and get def and hp, u have to give up alot of ur damage.

    where as a demon, i may not have as high as damage in tiger as sage has in human(sage human at +190%). but hey i got 80% more def and 30% more hp. (with +165% demon)

    and if they choose tiger, they get 40% more def and 10 % more hp but they thier damage at (+190% goes down to +140%)

    i think sage tiger benifits still wins compared to demon tiger.. +40% def 10% hp and losing the extra +25% damage


    but demon tiger owns sage human (losing 35% damage but gaining +30% hp and +80% def)

    the above really only takes into accounts base damage and max hp.
    all of which matter.

    but there are other things u need to consider as well, and that is crit rate.
    demon barb does give a higher base crit rate, but that's not what makes them scary.

    in human form demon bestial onslaught gives 35% increase crit rate for 6 seconds
    it also has an 8 second cooldown, meaning you can pretty much keep it up indefinitely

    but demon sunder is what truly takes the cake IMO for demon. it costs 2 sparks yeah, but for 5 seconds it gives EVERY attack 100% crit chance. which also includes the sunder itself. chaining that with a quick surf impact and armageddon is pretty much an insured ko on almost any player or mob.

    sage barb has its uses. and are undoubtable better for cata pulling becuase of sage spark and sage ss intenisty.

    but beyond that id have to give demon the trophy.

    and as a barb endgame your weakest aspect is your damage. choosing demon effectively nullifies that weakness. where as sage just improves on what your already the best at.
    Killing level 80's with a lvl 60 is a lot more fun than killing level 90's with a level 100.
  • GohRaL - Sanctuary
    GohRaL - Sanctuary Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Blablas...


    Once you got 16k+ in tiger you can do pretty much everything PVE wise...


    -Sage barbs doesnt pk in tiger form as much as demon does, its a fact. so even if you have more HP that would just have use in TW. Cuz once you stand up you'll lose all your HP and p.def bonus

    -Once you reach 80-85% p.dmg reduction its good. its really not that much of a difference if you raise it, and p.dmg is not our weakness...

    -Its not a matter of timing FR at high level, ive seen standing barbs keep aggro from tiger ones, FR is really a **** in after some level range. If you want an aggro-swap fest just to prove something, then your not the barb someone would squad with...


    -Myth, his, mine and every demon tiger ***...these are the reason:

    Demon tiger does full damage = more aggro than sage
    Demon tiger has 2% passive critcal = more aggro than sage
    FR has shorter CD = faster aggro than sage
    Roar reflects damage = more aggro than sage
    Sunder gives guaratee critical for 5sec = more aggro than sage
    Devour gives longer debuff = more aggro than sage

    If you look at sage version, you'll just find more p.def, more heal and a tiny dmg increase in alacrity (which will equal to demon version in long run cuz of the shorter CD)

    Lastly, you'll have more CHI gain from sage skills, but if you have trouble getting chi while tanking i think you shouldnt even bother to post...


    b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)


    >RETIRED<
  • Freizer - Lost City
    Freizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Once you got 16k+ in tiger you can do pretty much everything PVE wise...


    -Sage barbs doesnt pk in tiger form as much as demon does, its a fact. so even if you have more HP that would just have use in TW. Cuz once you stand up you'll lose all your HP and p.def bonus Wrong, well at least in my case, I see more demon barbs in anthro (on lost city you know the PVP server) than I do sage barbs in anthro. Also, I personally pk in tiger, because it works to my defensive advantage instead of trying to DD something to death with my already weak (standard barb) damage.

    -Once you reach 80-85% p.dmg reduction its good. its really not that much of a difference if you raise it, and p.dmg is not our weakness.

    -Its not a matter of timing FR at high level, ive seen standing barbs keep aggro from tiger ones, FR is really a **** in after some level range. If you want an aggro-swap fest just to prove something, then your not the barb someone would squad with...
    I never said I would be the one instigating an aggro swap (unlike the barb I replied to) So please read the conversation in whole before you post.

    -Myth, his, mine and every demon tiger ***...these are the reason:

    Demon tiger does full damage = more aggro than sage
    Demon tiger has 2% passive critcal = more aggro than sage
    FR has shorter CD = faster aggro than sage
    Roar reflects damage = more aggro than sage
    Sunder gives guaratee critical for 5sec = more aggro than sage
    Devour gives longer debuff = more aggro than sage

    If you look at sage version, you'll just find more p.def, more heal and a tiny dmg increase in alacrity (which will equal to demon version in long run cuz of the shorter CD)

    Lastly, you'll have more CHI gain from sage skills, but if you have trouble getting chi while tanking i think you shouldnt even bother to post...

    that's just not very nice, free speech and all. Also, yes i'm a chi beast no I don't have trouble getting it while i'm tanking never have probably never will. Although on this note, More chi? more often? more sparking? don't mind if I do = better aggro for sage
    b:bye

    if you had bothered to look earlier in the forum you would see my actual response to this argument, as it is I got tired of repeating myself. b:surrender

    Secondly, ever since the TB expansion the age old "demon barb has better aggro" (which btw, was never aground breaking amount of difference because barbs have always had rediculously lower attack than most classes) Anyway, since the tideborn expansion it has become even less of an issue, because of the distance between "aps" and traditional barbs. Now, if you bring in an aps demon barb that's a totally different story but alas was not what we were talking about. So, again argument invalid


    although you said it best:
    "blah blahs"
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • GohRaL - Sanctuary
    GohRaL - Sanctuary Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    if you had bothered to look earlier in the forum you would see my actual response to this argument, as it is I got tired of repeating myself. b:surrender

    Yeah, you are right on this. I didnt bother to read all this thread cuz i've already seen so many that im tired to post my opinion.


    I wrote cuz you were dissing the post of a demon barb that i respect over mostly other forum user, Redmenace.



    -You may be one of the few sage barbs that pk in tiger...but as you put it, it seems that your strategy is the passive-like one since you said "because it works to my defensive advantage instead of trying to DD something to death with my already weak (standard barb) damage."

    wait, am i missing something ? If you pk you DO have to actually try kill someone...



    -He wrote he could take aggro anytime he wishes, cuz the previous one said that demon barb can only keep aggro just by switching back and forth between the 2 forms...which is honestly laughable


    -Seems, you totally skip tp answer on the part of the more aggro capacity of demon tiger skillsb:avoid


    -Chi is very usefull and i know that very good, ok you got it...so now the count says 6 for demon 1 for sage on aggro term...


    -Lastly, if you bother to read my answer ive never talk about APS barb, i talked about HUMAN FORM so the invalid argument is yours...you are probably so afraid of APS barb that every time someone talk about a STANDING barb it has to be a -int one

    b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)


    >RETIRED<
  • Freizer - Lost City
    Freizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Yeah, you are right on this. I didnt bother to read all this thread cuz i've already seen so many that im tired to post my opinion.
    Then really, how am I expected to take you seriously Especially when you are doing the equivalent of jumping in to a conversation about potatoes (for example) and start ranting about tomatoes.


    I wrote cuz you were dissing the post of a demon barb that i respect over mostly other
    forum user, Redmenace.

    And he in turn was dissing a sage barb. (not that it matters that he was sage, but that seems to be the reason so why not )

    -You may be one of the few sage barbs that pk in tiger...but as you put it, it seems that your strategy is the passive-like one since you said "because it works to my defensive advantage instead of trying to DD something to death with my already weak (standard barb) damage."

    wait, am i missing something ? If you pk you DO have to actually try kill someone...
    Oh this probably is my fault for not explaining properly, maybe you are familiar with the idea that the best offence is a good defense? That's how I pk, it only takes maybe 4-5 hits on say an archer but a (good) archer can drop a barb with 15K-16k hp in a shot or two. If I last through that (and I do, since well that's how I play) Then I get my shots in and they die. It's much more rewarding to have someone freak out because I didn't die, than to stand around in "anthro" or what have you waiting to get shot at.

    Also, I'm a charmless pvper (hard as that may be for you to comprehend) so I rely on pots, and appoc to keep myself alive. This has also contributed to my way of going about pvp, because unlike charmed barbs, (nothing against people who pvp in with charms) I don't get a second chance.

    This is my "tl/dr" abridged version, if you would like to know in more detail how I pk, so that you may understand my approach I will happily discuss it with you


    -He wrote he could take aggro anytime he wishes, cuz the previous one said that demon barb can only keep aggro just by switching back and forth between the 2 forms...which is honestly laughable

    And I merely retorted to him that once you get into tiger form it's a flesh remeing contest anyway, and that the post above him was talking about damage.
    -Seems, you totally skip tp answer on the part of the more aggro capacity of demon tiger skillsb:avoid
    You obviously didn't bother to read my post at the end, I addressed and dismissed your assumption that it mattered anymore, because since the tideborn expansion the already "minimal" difference has further been nulled.

    -Chi is very usefull and i know that very good, ok you got it...so now the count says 6 for demon 1 for sage on aggro term...

    See above

    -Lastly, if you bother to read my answer ive never talk about APS barb, i talked about HUMAN FORM so the invalid argument is yours...you are probably so afraid of APS barb that every time someone talk about a STANDING barb it has to be a -int one
    I did say
    "It was not part of the argument" but that it was an exception to what I was saying :3 And i'll explain again, ignoring your rudeness towards the end of your post. Traditional barbs are having trouble keeping aggro, sage or demon it's a fact of life, welcome to the tide born expansion. That being said the only barbs I have successfully keep aggro happen to be demon aps barbs (pardons I've seen a few sage as well, just not as common)This dismisses most of your argument about your "l33t" aggro skills, because well hey, aps are part of the game now, why not expand other reasons for going sage and or demon? (revolutionary I know b:shocked)


    b:bye
    Why on earth would I be terrified of an APS barb? (not arrogance mind you) and yes, I have come up against some pretty fantastic claw barbs that can and have kick my ***. Unfortunately my personal distaste towards them comes from their squishiness (and we've already discussed that if you are an aps barb, you must in fact "bring the cash" or have alot of in game grinding time to combat this weakness.

    Also, don't presume anything about me especially if you are going to do it poorly. I have taken reservation in doing the same about you.
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    My post was assuming a pure tiger build for both sides. And it was also addressing the accusations that a demon tiger build was better at holding aggro, which is a complete myth.

    My personal build is a slight hybrid with slightly more str than a pure vit build. My dex is capped at 50 and even then I still manage to have 18% crit rate (artificially) with weapons and ornaments. Most vit built demon barbs don't even have that since most of those are trying to close the gap between the hp loss from demon true form.

    The only way a demon barbs higher crit rate would affect aggro holding any better than a sage is if they switched back and forth between upright/tiger spamming titans and onslaught, which in most scenarios, would instantly get them killed.
    Er..

    A barb standing in human form is far less likely to hold aggro on anything unless using claws. In that case, demon barb wins thanks to APS, whether it be using an axe/poleblade or fists/claws.

    A demon barb in tiger form keeps aggro better too. Why? Normal damage. Faster ream.

    Freizer said:
    and I could take aggro right back from you. Two barbs going at it in tiger form against a boss usually just comes down who's got better timing on fleshreme
    And demon has faster ream. Oops? I don't see how this is inherently a good thing either especially on bosses that AOE like crazy at every aggro change.

    That being said, the way I see it is it only comes down to the skills and HP bonuses you want. My barb is demon and I love it. I love demon roar, demon ream, demon buffs. On the other hand, I already have a 5 APS BM, 4/5 APS sage sin, 5 APS archer. It would be interesting to have yet another APS character but I think I might switch over to Sage for the HP for times my barb needs to be a beating post. Right now at 97 has 17K HP.
  • GohRaL - Sanctuary
    GohRaL - Sanctuary Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited February 2011

    Seems you totally misunderstood the agument, since we were talking about AGGRO CAPACITY between the two cultivation...I read your whole post but you skipped my statement.

    Even a 2 years old kid could understand that once a maxed APS char joins the party the aggro is on his shoulder and cultivation wont matter...

    Tide expansion or not, barb is the tank and you are not guaranteed that in every squad you go there's an APS player. If there's it, then again your not the tank...

    But between demon and sage THERE'S NO DOUBT that demon wins on aggro capacity !


    NO DOUBT


    One last thing, demon outdamage sage in BOTH FORMS cuz of the critcal skill they have.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)


    >RETIRED<
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Why on earth would I be terrified of an APS barb? (not arrogance mind you) and yes, I have come up against some pretty fantastic claw barbs that can and have kick my ***. Unfortunately my personal distaste towards them comes from their squishiness (and we've already discussed that if you are an aps barb, you must in fact "bring the cash" or have alot of in game grinding time to combat this weakness.

    Also, don't presume anything about me especially if you are going to do it poorly. I have taken reservation in doing the same about you.

    No one here is "terrified" of an APS barb. You go aps, you're not really a barb anymore. You're a big furry BM with some extra buffs, or an overweight 'sin. None of those skills you have leveled work with claws, or fists. You are killing things by simply smacking them.

    This *was* a Barb Sage/Demon discussion. When I talk about a similarly equipped demon barb vs sage barb, I mean *barb* - axes or hammers. I was adressing the obvious *lie* that sage barbs with similar builds or equal gear can keep aggro away from demon barbs. You don't have to take out a calculator to know it isn't true, all other things the same.

    I have no issue with any sage barbs, nor do I have any problem with anyone rolling sage if they wish. It makes one hell of a tank. I know and respect plenty of sage barbs. I just didn't choose to go that way.

    But I will do more damage in tiger form, and I *will* take aggro from a sage barb. Been there, done that. I raised my barb trying to keep aggro from big archers/BM's/+10 wizzies.

    You can belittle my gear and stats all you want - that wont change a thing.

    Of course, I'm on a PvE server - which means I concern myself with tanking bosses, killing things, and pulling cats. I left my barb in Lost City because the e-peen contests you all seem to be involved in lost my interest.

    PvP =/= PvE ,tanking

    RedMenace

    \honestly, the whole "you suck because I say so" angle of yours is so last year
    \\and the red text thing is rather annoying as well
    \\\not impressed by your peen at all
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Axelire - Heavens Tear
    Axelire - Heavens Tear Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    You go aps, you're not really a barb anymore. You're a big furry BM with some extra buffs, or an overweight 'sin. None of those skills you have leveled work with claws, or fists. You are killing things by simply smacking them.

    Pardon?

    I would say that at endgame, good APS barbs capture the essence of what PvE barbs are intended for - tanking - more so than traditional VIT or even STR/VIT builds.

    APS>skill spamming on bosses in terms of DDing, for everything else APS barbs can still wield axes/hammers and use true form.

    Good APS barbs can do everything that a traditional build can in PvE, and then some.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Furries - Dreamweaver
    Furries - Dreamweaver Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Pardon?

    I would say that at endgame, good APS barbs capture the essence of what PvE barbs are intended for - tanking - more so than traditional VIT or even STR/VIT builds.

    APS>skill spamming on bosses in terms of DDing, for everything else APS barbs can still wield axes/hammers and use true form.

    Good APS barbs can do everything that a traditional build can in PvE, and then some.

    err your forgetting if u go axe claw.. just like a bm you will have 0 points in vit.

    if i did that i would lose 4k hp... thats 28%... in tiger

    and considering you have to be human form.. meaning i would lose 40% hp.

    im sorry but if your throwing 40% of ur hp away ur no longer a barb in my book
    Killing level 80's with a lvl 60 is a lot more fun than killing level 90's with a level 100.
  • Axelire - Heavens Tear
    Axelire - Heavens Tear Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    err your forgetting if u go axe claw.. just like a bm you will have 0 points in vit.

    if i did that i would lose 4k hp... thats 28%... in tiger

    and considering you have to be human form.. meaning i would lose 40% hp.

    im sorry but if your throwing 40% of ur hp away ur no longer a barb in my book


    Calling all APS barbs with 0 points in VIT... *waits for reply* *tumbleweed*

    If I'm no longer a barb, and I have more HP than you, you're not really a barb in your own book either. What do you do in an instance? Run around shouting how much HP you have while someone else tanks?

    The consensus is that 15k-16k HP buffed in true form is enough for almost all PvE situations. Extra HP on top of that is nice, but its not needed and it isn't going to help you keep aggro, or make you as an efficient DD as other DD classes when you're not tanking.

    Come back when you have the slightest clue how an APS barb works. Which I'm surprised you don't yet, since you posted in the Claw barb guide. Nevermind, those comments were equally as clueless as this one.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    <<APS Barb statted for 200+ dex for endgame claws. Without using gear meant for +stats I have 80 vitality base, and about 340 strength with gear. Still debating whether to reduce vitality and add to strength for more damage output and aggro ability, or to do the opposite and reduce strength down to the minimum for endgame axes and boost vitality up another 30-40 stats.

    Either way I already have enough hp to tank anything I need to. And Aps + bloodpaint gives me soooooo much more survivability on some bosses than having a large hp pool would.

    My point isn't to brag about how fun or capable fist barbs are, my point is that it is a viable endgame build for barbs depending on a persons chosen playstyle.

    You have vit barbs (whether pve or cata puller).
    You have str barbs.
    You have hybrid barbs or dex barbs.
    You have aps barbs.

    For aps barbs, come on, Demon is a clear winner.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Freizer - Lost City
    Freizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    No one here is "terrified" of an APS barb. You go aps, you're not really a barb anymore. You're a big furry BM with some extra buffs, or an overweight 'sin. None of those skills you have leveled work with claws, or fists. You are killing things by simply smacking them.

    This *was* a Barb Sage/Demon discussion. When I talk about a similarly equipped demon barb vs sage barb, I mean *barb* - axes or hammers. I was adressing the obvious *lie* that sage barbs with similar builds or equal gear can keep aggro away from demon barbs. You don't have to take out a calculator to know it isn't true, all other things the same.

    I have no issue with any sage barbs, nor do I have any problem with anyone rolling sage if they wish. It makes one hell of a tank. I know and respect plenty of sage barbs. I just didn't choose to go that way.

    But I will do more damage in tiger form, and I *will* take aggro from a sage barb. Been there, done that. I raised my barb trying to keep aggro from big archers/BM's/+10 wizzies.

    You can belittle my gear and stats all you want - that wont change a thing.

    Of course, I'm on a PvE server - which means I concern myself with tanking bosses, killing things, and pulling cats. I left my barb in Lost City because the e-peen contests you all seem to be involved in lost my interest.

    PvP =/= PvE ,tanking

    RedMenace

    \honestly, the whole "you suck because I say so" angle of yours is so last year
    \\and the red text thing is rather annoying as well
    \\\not impressed by your peen at all

    Guess I'lll switch colors then :3

    If you took, a minute and actually read through my posts (which I hardly believe you did, as you took replies out of context that were not directed to you)

    although in response this is where the "terrified of aps barbs" comment came from:
    GohRal- ..you are probably so afraid of APS barb that every time someone talk about a STANDING barb it has to be a -int one

    Second of all, I never tried to make this about claw barbs, I went so far as to specifically say that it was "not my point"

    Now, if you bring in an aps demon barb that's a totally different story but alas was not what we were talking about. So, again argument invalid
    (see right there)

    II'll admit it was wrong of me to jump out of the gate and mock your hp, and pdef so I retract that statement. I have no problem with demon barbs what so ever, but I have seen ,and taken aggro from demon barbs. That yes, the math backs up the claim but you then have to adress the skill of both barbs,and if you had then said equal-gear- and equal skill I would have hardly raised a fuss.

    I would also argue that PVP does in fact equal PVE (and once again this was not directed towards you) because that is how I personally pvp, and thus are my own views. If you would like to hear more about why, I would be more than happy to debate it with you.

    on an ending note:
    \ I never quite said you suck, and what I feel I have had to own up to , I have
    \\That's just petty, I happen to like the color red.
    \\\ Lost City's Female barb, commin at cha b:victory

    Side note about aps:
    APs barbs are just as "real" as normal barbs, I don't like it but I respect them just as much as any other barb. I have alot of respect for people who can still tank (very well) and have subnormal vit (ofcorce this is ignoring spectacularly geared people who have more hp than the standard barb and still are aps)
    Also, I'm not sure about you but how many skills do you *Really* use? I can count about 5-9 (excluding buffs and true form). That still leaves out quite a few that most of us groan and wish we hadn't leveled.
    That and aps barbs are just as capable switching to axes.

    Sakubatou said it best:

    My point isn't to brag about how fun or capable fist barbs are, my point is that it is a viable endgame build for barbs depending on a persons chosen playstyle.
    -
    I'm not personally a fan, but calling them "not barbs" is about as bad as well, saying demons are not barbs either. It's like when demon barbs were considered fail because they weren't pulling as much pdef and HP as sage barbs.
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited February 2011

    Come back when you have the slightest clue how an APS barb works.

    Can you go tiger form, without using a **** that the GM's will ban you for if they see you do it?

    <crickets>

    Didn't think so.

    I never said going Fists/claws was bad, or stupid - I just said you are turning a barb into something else.

    Of course, if you spend enough money, you can have as much HP and phys def as a tank (normal) build barb. Do you believe that running up your charge card makes you a better barb?

    By all means, keep doing that, then. I'm glad someone continues to open up that wallet for the PWI people. It keeps the load off the rest of us that try to stay as close to F2P as possible.

    RedMenace
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Can you go tiger form, without using a **** that the GM's will ban you for if they see you do it?

    <crickets>

    Didn't think so.

    I never said going Fists/claws was bad, or stupid - I just said you are turning a barb into something else.

    Of course, if you spend enough money, you can have as much HP and phys def as a tank (normal) build barb. Do you believe that running up your charge card makes you a better barb?

    By all means, keep doing that, then. I'm glad someone continues to open up that wallet for the PWI people. It keeps the load off the rest of us that try to stay as close to F2P as possible.

    RedMenace

    first...http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=44ad34eeded07ab7 hey look its a 5 aps claw barb with mediocre gear...and similar hp to a vit build, the only loss is single target aggro in tiger form.

    2nd, question...is it easier to farm rank 9 with full def/vit shards as an

    A. vit barb that is mainly used for TW
    B. usefull aps barb thats taken on instances

    so its more likely that a full vit barb would CS due to the lower farming ablility no?

    /inb4"ihavefreindsthatletmemoochoffthemsoyouallfail"
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Guess I'lll switch colors then :3

    If you took, a minute and actually read through my posts (which I hardly believe you did, as you took replies out of context that were not directed to you)

    It's really not necessary to continually confuse not agreeing with you with "not reading your posts". I've read them, repeatedly. If you believe I have interpreted your statements wrong, then please address *that*.
    although in response this is where the "terrified of aps barbs" comment came from:
    GohRal- ..you are probably so afraid of APS barb that every time someone talk about a STANDING barb it has to be a -int one

    Why on earth would I be terrified of an APS barb? That is what I replied to. I was actually agreeing with you, and making the statement to all. Sorry for the confusion.
    Second of all, I never tried to make this about claw barbs, I went so far as to specifically say that it was "not my point"
    Now, if you bring in an aps demon barb that's a totally different story but alas was not what we were talking about. So, again argument invalid
    (see right there)

    I'll admit it was wrong of me to jump out of the gate and mock your hp, and pdef so I retract that statement. I have no problem with demon barbs what so ever, but I have seen ,and taken aggro from demon barbs. That yes, the math backs up the claim but you then have to adress the skill of both barbs,and if you had then said equal-gear- and equal skill I would have hardly raised a fuss.

    Agreed. I have taken as well aggro from Sins, and BM's, and archers, and every other class. I assumed it was obvious we were talking about equal geared chars, not "people who can play their class" vs "Oracle Babies"
    I would also argue that PVP does in fact equal PVE (and once again this was not directed towards you) because that is how I personally pvp, and thus are my own views. If you would like to hear more about why, I would be more than happy to debate it with you.

    You may play the same way on PvP vs PvE, but at least admit that the enviroment for players lvl 30 and up is entirely different on the two types of servers. Players evolve quite differently. The majority of people on PvE servers, if they decide to PvP, do so late in the game, when their gear is top notch, and the *choose* to do so. PvP is Survival of the Fittest, and breeds a different player.

    But that's an old argument, and has little to do with this discussion.

    I assume we can agree that PWI has left barbs far behind, in the evolution of this game. I want to see that fixed. I personally don't believe restatting a crapload of DEX for claws/fists, or going full MAG and getting a frickin' Fairy Wand, is Running a Barb.
    \\\ Lost City's Female barb, commin at cha b:victory

    Gratz, but you don't have to have a real 'peen to Epeen on Lost City.
    Side note about aps:
    APs barbs are just as "real" as normal barbs, I don't like it but I respect them just as much as any other barb. I have alot of respect for people who can still tank (very well) and have subnormal vit (ofcorce this is ignoring spectacularly geared people who have more hp than the standard barb and still are aps)
    Also, I'm not sure about you but how many skills do you *Really* use? I can count about 5-9 (excluding buffs and true form). That still leaves out quite a few that most of us groan and wish we hadn't leveled.
    That and aps barbs are just as capable switching to axes.

    Sakubatou said it best:

    My point isn't to brag about how fun or capable fist barbs are, my point is that it is a viable endgame build for barbs depending on a persons chosen playstyle.
    -
    I'm not personally a fan, but calling them "not barbs" is about as bad as well, saying demons are not barbs either. It's like when demon barbs were considered fail because they weren't pulling as much pdef and HP as sage barbs.

    I have no problem with Claw barbs - I'm sure it's lots of fun, and evil as hell as a DD. But It's not what Barbs were designed to be. I prefer to continue to try to make my char work as intended, and use *all* the skills I've been given.

    It's more of a challenge.

    When I want to flurry hits on something, I load up my 'sin. That's what it's for.

    RedMenace

    \give em hell
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • RoidAbuse - Sanctuary
    RoidAbuse - Sanctuary Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Demon Onslaught. That skill alone makes demon better than sage. Of course, I'm pretty biased.

    I like my claw barb.. Ability to tank everything and solo TTs if I'm low on GA and apo coins. b:pleased
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The claw build is indeed amazing. Some will laugh at you for being a wannabe-BM, but hey, I'm loving it, and that is all that matters. It floats my boat...........errr yacht. b:chuckle


    I love my 50% crit when I spark with claws and squeeze a Frenzy in too.


    50% crit, -105% Phy Def Debuff, +50 atk lvls. Oh yeah.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower

    -Self-Proclaimed TW commentator of HT-
    -Certified Barbarian Master-
    -You gained +10 coolness points for viewing this signature-
    -Master of Coffee-
  • Axelire - Heavens Tear
    Axelire - Heavens Tear Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Can you go tiger form, without using a **** that the GM's will ban you for if they see you do it?

    <crickets>

    Didn't think so.

    I never said going Fists/claws was bad, or stupid - I just said you are turning a barb into something else.

    Of course, if you spend enough money, you can have as much HP and phys def as a tank (normal) build barb. Do you believe that running up your charge card makes you a better barb?

    By all means, keep doing that, then. I'm glad someone continues to open up that wallet for the PWI people. It keeps the load off the rest of us that try to stay as close to F2P as possible.

    RedMenace

    *equips axes, switches to true form* I didn't realise that I lost the ability to do that when I merely re-stat some points into DEX.

    Please understand that being able to use fists/claws is IN ADDITION and NOT IN REPLACE of everything else a traditional VIT build is able to do.

    Don't assume all those who are better geared opened their wallet for it, it makes you sound butthurt, you'd be surprised at how many people with 'hax gear' farmed/merchanted it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Demon Onslaught. That skill alone makes demon better than sage. Of course, I'm pretty biased.

    I like my claw barb.. Ability to tank everything and solo TTs if I'm low on GA and apo coins. b:pleased

    I like my sage onslaught. I dun like missing, so 100% accuracy on kiters makes me happy. b:cute
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Question for the OP: 18 days ago you were level 90 and asked about Sage or Demon. 18 days later you are still level 90 but did you make a decision?

    I like my sage onslaught. I dun like missing, so 100% accuracy on kiters makes me happy. b:cute

    Lol, tell that to BladeEther, or whatever his name is, the next time he makes his every couple weeks multipost on how Sage Beastial Onslaught is fail and he wants to take his back to lvl 10.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Arrowjer - Raging Tide
    Arrowjer - Raging Tide Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    im goin sage its avantages will be better as a high lvl 100+ player an it wont matter bye then anyways....
  • kallina077
    kallina077 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    the blue is definately better than the red.
    realistically I usually end up having to do a Bh run light or even solo. it doesn't matter how long it takes me to kill the boss, simply a question of being able to replenish hp faster than i lose them. this has been my winning strategy up to L84.
    continueing in this style, Sage? Demon?
  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Gz on necroing.
  • Dragoneast - Sanctuary
    Dragoneast - Sanctuary Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Look, Tank? SAGE. I'm a 101 barb, no vana gear or R9 or such and I still need to tank delta and metal and such cause most sins can heal very fast but if a boss goes frenzy they get 2 shot still. so pro's of sage:
    true form: 10% extra hp and +90% speed, compared to +80% speed from demon, always useful for pulling :D
    titans gives more phys attack.
    Hp buff lasts longer, caster LOVE you for it cause they got 1 hour of extra hp for caster vana.
    sunder heals more. arma requires less hp and mp (only 35% instead of 50%)
    roar decreases mag attack :)
    flesh ream requires less chi so u can use it faster.
    frighten has a 33% chance to freeze.
    I do not need much,
    I do not have much,
    I do not miss much,
    I have love and friendship,
    To compensate for that!
    Dragoneast-rb1-soon to be 100 again- sanctuary
    Back in pwi, always returning to my first real mmo
    Started in genie patch :)
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Look, Tank? SAGE. I'm a 101 barb, no vana gear or R9 or such and I still need to tank delta and metal and such cause most sins can heal very fast but if a boss goes frenzy they get 2 shot still. so pro's of sage:
    true form: 10% extra hp and +90% speed, compared to +80% speed from demon, always useful for pulling :D
    titans gives more phys attack.
    Hp buff lasts longer, caster LOVE you for it cause they got 1 hour of extra hp for caster vana.
    sunder heals more. arma requires less hp and mp (only 35% instead of 50%)
    roar decreases mag attack :)
    flesh ream requires less chi so u can use it faster.
    frighten has a 33% chance to freeze.

    "Tank" being someone who can hold aggro or someone who has more hp/def and watches the sins tank? ;) Demon is better for aggro, sage is better for hp/def. Considering by endgame you have about 3x the needed hp to tank anything out there except other players I say go demon.

    If you're more than a buff **** who stays outside the squad while other people run, then casters also love having a chi-barb around. The don't regenerate chi as well as aps chars so in between bosses hit them with a BKI and refilling their chi bar so they can be triple sparked. Also, sage Titans doesn't help them one bit, but demon boosts their crit rate by 5%, and for melee 75% phys attack and +5% crit is better than 90% phys attack. Sage is great when the barb is not in the squad and more of a buff alt.

    Sage Sunder heals 6666 hp overtime which I used to think is a big deal until I saw 35k hp barbs use it and endgame, 6666 is barely anything. Demon Sunder crits everytime. That means until about 20k hp its going to be more powerful than your armageddon. The huge thing is demon sunder makes your next attack crit too. So Demon Sunder (only 4k hp healed, but its instant so you have full hp when you switch to human) then Armageddon. Now you've crit Sundered and crit Armad and everything around should be dead. The exchange is 1666 hp over 15 seconds.

    Sage arma requires less hp/mp. Demon arma requires the same hp/mp but is alot stronger. If you have paint you'll get more hp with a demon arma.

    Sage Roar decreases magic attack. Again, sage is defensive but doesn't help with aggro. Demon roar gives you a 100% bramble (stronger than a venos bramble) and helps you hold aggro better. Sage decreasing magic attack is mostly nice for the dds when they pull aggro off the sage barb.

    Sage Ream requires 5 less chi. How does that mean you can use it faster? Demon has a shorter cooldown, thats how you can use demon faster. Demon is more spammable and helps hold aggro better.

    Sage Frighten 33% chance to freeze for 3 seconds. Demon Frighten has a chance to stun for 3 seconds :D And if you want freeze demon surf has a chance to freeze.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
This discussion has been closed.