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Sage or Demon Barbarian

Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
edited November 2012 in Barbarian
Hi,

I am a level 90 barbarian who has yet to determine whether to become a sage or demon.

Is there anyone who has helpful advice to determine which one to choose? Which class is better for which run? Is that how one can determine wich to choose?

At the moment all I do are FC's to level and from what I have heard, the object of the game is TW.

I do not PVP; I mostly FC and am thinking about doin some TT's (mainly just to complete quests and maybe some sight seeing).

I heard that zhening might be better experience than FC but I havn't looked into it.

The only thing that I can see that I might enjoy demon over sage is the True Form, the Poison Fang, and Roar. I have never been one to use the roar skill other than to quicken the BH51 run back in the day. Isn't it a useless skill? Demon form looks like it makes the skill actually uselfull, but what happens after the 10 seconds? What then? 0o


Thank you for your input and I look forward to reading responses,


somewhat nubbish with an ink wet paw xD
Post edited by Ibitechu - Dreamweaver on
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Comments

  • Sakubatou - SanctuarySakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I love being demon, and understand why all the sage barbs are switching.

    But before I explain why I kind of wanna slap you for not using roar, its an awesome skill. =P I think I had the same experience as you in BH51 because I remember roar would allow the cleric to heal me without heal aggro, but a single attack from a player on a roared mob would pull off aggro. However, roar was around level 6 or 7 then. At level 10 it just seems awesome. You can hold aggro with roar alone through 3 or 4 aoes without having done any damage. Level 11 roar keeps aggro through 4 or 5, and demon also adds 100% reflect dmg (more than the 60% of veno bramble).


    Okay. So Sage or Demon?

    Any other DD's almost refuse to bring Sage barbs on runs with them? For FCC, its fine because they can do the pulls, but it annoys me when they try to tank bosses because the cleric then has to heal them occasionally because they'll pull aggro for a second after each Flesh Ream. Don't bother, let the cleric stack the person who is actually tanking, the aps user. I'd rather Sage barbs just be buff and devour hoars to reduce mob defense for the people actually doing decent DD. Also, I know human form is where you have more DD, but barb damage is still tiny compared to aps players, so devouring for 50% def reduction > than human form DDing.

    Sage has better axe mastery and Titans buff damage, but demon has better Poison Fang damage pretty much evening things out. Endgame barbs are mostly devour hoars since BMs and Sins tend to tank most bosses. The longer Devour is nice for saving up chi since you wont need to spam it as often. This can be used to spam FR instead.

    Three absolute sellers for demon: You do more damage in tiger form than you will in human form. Sage gets 10% more hp. Demon is much more likely to hold aggro and endgame you'll have plenty of hp. The 10% hp bonus for sage ends up being pointless because Sage barbs don't tank.

    Second seller: Sunder->chi pot-> Armageddon. Sunder makes all hits crits for 5 seconds (it crits itself, for awesome damage as well as heal over time) then the armageddon is a guaranteed crit.

    Beastial Onslaught can be channel canceled. Which means at anytime you can pay 120 mana and .5 seconds for a 35% increase to your crit rate.

    Sage offers... 10% more hp in tiger form on a build that doesn't tank.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I did not like that slap comment...

    I don't use roar as I have never found a use for it. Where do you use it? FC trolls did try to convince me to use it to control mobs, but I was told and already knew that the FC is a group effort and that I had been running with cheap people when I lay dead on the cold FC dungeon floor because some class didn't have there aoe skills ranked.

    Are you saying that clerics need to heal themselves because there heals pull agro from the kitty when you say "it annoys me when they try to tank bosses because the cleric then has to heal them occasionally because they'll pull aggro for a second after each Flesh Ream"? Or are you referring to another class that tanks and that the kitty shouldn't use Flesh Ream when others tank?

    What are aps players?

    I don't know if having that extra weapon damage in kitty form is worth anything. Isn't the role of a kitty to be a punching bag for monsters while the DD's in the squad to the damage?

    You say that sage barbs don't tank, what do sage barbs do? What is the role of a sage barb?

    I am attempting to determine wich I would run in dungeons, while still knowing that there is something in the boutique that will allow me to switch over temporarily should I choose. But at the npc that has the demon or sage quests it says that once you choose you can not change whether you are a demon or sage character. Is this true? Is there no other way to change from demon to sage permanently should you get bored of the one you choose?


    The Shapeshifting Intensity defense stat is increased from 60% to 120%. Wouldn't that be beneficial for a kitty if it is to remain the tank class?

    Ok, sunder does give 5 seconds of critical hits in demon form. But it still takes 2 sparks to get that up and running with 30 seconds of cooldown.

    Critical hits are always nice, how much do they add to normal damage hits?

    Sage does have better axe mastery (adds 25% of weapon damage) and Titans buff (adds 10 % of weapon damage) and the Demon version of Poison Fang (adds 10% weapon damage in wood damage) and True Form (adds the missing 50% of weapon damage) which doesn't necessarily even things out. Is the additional attack damage in kitty form required? The Flesh Ream skill is designed to pull agro by itself with the additional bonus of the weapon damage....

    No idea what you ment by chi pot.


    Thank you,


    nub hovering mouse more towards sage quest....


    b:shockedb:byeb:thanksb:laugh
  • Templar - SanctuaryTemplar - Sanctuary Posts: 607 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Sage> TW cat puller "tank"

    Demon > PK, can become 5,0 clawarian farmer etc.

    its easy to pick depend what u whana do.

    I picked sage 2 years ago and i don't regret it .b:chuckle
  • rottsx2rottsx2 Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I have never been one to use the roar skill other than to quicken the BH51 run back in the day. Isn't it a useless skill?

    No, roar is not a useless skill. from lvl 8x to around lvl 93 you should invoke,roar,beastial rage at every pull.
    If you do not use roar then beastial rage in fc at the end of every pull, u dont build chi, which means your not using invoke to stay alive. thus you lie on that cold hard floor over and over.
    I'm not sure how you run yor fc, but you shouldnt ever die in it. regardless of who u squad with. if your not building chi, then you must be going through a lot of chi pots to get 2 sparks? at lvl 90, after i pulled the mobs to a shade, i would roar,beastial rage,human form,tangle mire with genie, then armageddon the mobs. the bm would dg the same time = dead mobs quick. always after roar use beastial rage to build that chi fast. if your with a fast squad, they dont want to waste time waiting for you to get chi to pull the next set of mobs. without the chi, you die if you need to invoke and cant. being lvl 90,im sure you know all this.

    when you get into doing bh100, gv2, and when you do warsong bh, you will be needing to use roar.
  • Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Thanks for the simple TW/PK advice Templar. I figured the difference of sage and demon would have something to do with what type of end game I wanted.

    After seeing a few level 90+ sins solo Nob and Pole under what seemed like 10 seconds, I already know that a cat is probably nuthin compared to a sin for quick solo boss kills. But then again, I have never seen a cat solo Nob or Pole and the posts on YouTube only show the last 10 seconds of a barbarian killing a world boss. Anyone disagree with this insite?


    rottsx2, why use roar from 80-93 levels? What happens after level 93? I was under the impression that the end game leveling consisted mostly of running FC's. Is there a better place to use hypers to gain exp that is unlocked at level 93? o3o

    Not to get too far off topic, but can I assume that you agree with Templars advice on the sage/TW and demon/PK advice?
    As for chi and running FC, my genie has cloud eruption if I ever get in a chi bind. But unfortunately I no longer have any affinity points as I spent them on holy path and cloud eruption, but that tangle mire looks like it would be a good add on to my genie arsenal(Creates a mire under the target and all enemies within 15 meters, reducing their movement speed by 6% and physical defense by 17%
    Lasts for 10 seconds.) if I did have the affinity points to add it.

    There is always a Harpy or a boss that will help build chi in FC. I only pull large mobs that physical attack and the skills used have usually been surf impact when the bm stuns then sunder. At this point if they are not dead, then occasionally I will use roar but mostly I will use frighten/bestial rage because the ones that have missed the stun trap are usually still chasing me. I have tried the invoke, roar, bestial rage at the big pull in the big room with a more success than just surf impact, sunder, surf impact.

    What have you got for a barb pulling them magic attack mobs in fc? Yknow the ones after the fifth shade? First mob bring to the T intersection? Some players even request that I pull to the shade before the second boss! 0o I have seen a barb with arcane gear standing around in Archo, but have never seen one in action. Can someone film how they pull them magic mobs wearing lvl 80 npc armor gear? xD

    The only YouTube fc video I could find that is any good:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCWuFD2Wfmo

    Can someone film how to do a fast fc(to heads) with npc armor and post it here? Maybe start another thread? And what recording software is best to use to capture lagless video(requires less system resources while producing best quality video)?


    No idea what a chi pot is, must be the sold in them secret shops that sell them speed pods?

    If you have the time to create YouTube videos of bh100, gv2, and when you do warsong bh as a barb PLEASE post them here, I would watch them to see what its like to be a kitty at that high level and see what is required.
    I might start a new thread for other kitties to view, but mostly I am looking for sage or demon input for me to determine wich to choose. Facts on which you would choose would be most appreciated.


    Thanks for your input ^^
  • Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I created this new thread for kitties to view and post should they be interested in learning to fc.

    Thank you for your input and I hope that someone out there can post some good videos for people to view on how they do fc as a cat.


    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=12034072#post12034072



    ^^
  • Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Sakubatou? Its possible to switch from demon to sage barb using the same character? The npc says you can not do it? How does one switch from sage to barb? Do you mean you created another barbarian to have a sage and demon to see which you prefer?
  • Korsov - Heavens TearKorsov - Heavens Tear Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Need to have your third fairy to make the switch, which requires that you have reached the culti stage of celestial demon or celestial sage. Requires a schism mold from cash shop and 250 mirages if I remember correctly.

    EDIT: Also, please use the search function. This "sage vs demon barb" thread has been created way too many times. Any information you could hope to find will be located somewhere in the countless number of these threads already out there.
  • Freizer - Lost CityFreizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    First of all, 90 in roughly 2 or so months is a new one on me, damn to get old.

    secondly, the frost "trolls" you were running with weren't trolls. Roar is a successful and useful skill that will grab aggro quickly especially in frost. (big pulls you either alpha male or roar, sometimes both at different times if your DD is pulling) Roar is basically "oopse the DD /cleric caught a mob that they weren't supposed to and are now getting their asses kicked some distance away from you skill.

    Secondly on the sage demon choice:

    It's "really" a personal choice. I' m sage, I have been for the duration of my playing. The reasons I like it is because of the HP, I'm not pve only, I enjoy pvp and quite frankly have an easier time of it than "some" demon barbs. (i'm mainly directing that towards "strg" demon barbs) a well placed archer crit will lay that kind of barb down. Hence, why I pvp in tiger. It's not a standard way of playing but it works for me personally, and I enjoy it.

    Pve: it's been proven that standard non claw non aps barbs, hold aggro roughly the same demon or sage so that shouldn't be a deciding factor of your build.


    Either are good choices and it's more a personal choice. I would advise you to look up sites like etacomb for a better overview of the skills, and decide what your personal likes and dislikes are.

    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Thanks for the input, ya ha, don't know how people get off topic so quickly, but thanks for the instructions on how to switch from demon to sage. As for the keyword search, I specifically use keywords to search for threads whose headings contain the information that I am interested in. Saved time reading through all the redundant **** that has been posted in the past.

    Using sage and demon has returned poor results and I have neither the time nor the patience to be searching through what turns up on a search whose heading does not contain any of the keywords I used for the search.
  • Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    For the alpha male and roar; i don't know how anyone can get themselves into trouble like that in fc. The cat is always in front of everyone and bringing them big pulls into the boss rooms does not seem to affect anyone when passed. All it takes to get mobs attention is...you might want to write this down...run past them. :o

    Not to say that I havn't killed a psychic in the big pull (heads) because I neglected to use roar when I could have to save them from being mobbed *whaooops, mybad* xD

    Thanks for the ecatomb.net advice. I have been meaning to compare the skills that I use mostly to see which version of cat would be beneficial to my gameplay.

    I havn't used human form much at all. I used BH's to level up and so I have been in kitty form mostly. Do people seriously consider a barbarian a DD? With psychics,wizards,archers and assasins running around with far superior attack skills, is there a point to pursuing barbarian human form?

    To me it sounds like spending 50k on a Yugo to outperform a Mustang; can be done but why not have the real thing?

    :p
  • Yanami - Heavens TearYanami - Heavens Tear Posts: 289 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    For the alpha male and roar; i don't know how anyone can get themselves into trouble like that in fc. The cat is always in front of everyone and bringing them big pulls into the boss rooms does not seem to affect anyone when passed. All it takes to get mobs attention is...you might want to write this down...run past them. :o

    I think it's more for the benefit of the cleric lol. So that way when you bring mobs back into BB range, the mobs don't automatically run to cleric due to BB healing you once you get close enough. Not everyone has quick reflexes to unleash doom on the mobs before it reaches the cleric. Better safe with using Roar than being sorry later.

    (And sorry for specifically talking about that instead of sage/demon for a barb. I have no knowledge in that. XD)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - SanctuarySakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The slap comment was just in fun. Hearing a barb say they don't use roar because its not a useful skill is like hearing a bm say HF isn't useful, a wiz saying BIDS isn't useful, a cleric saying Ironheart Blessing isn't useful, or a veno saying... well venos aren't actually useful (j/k foxey friends).

    Roar resets aggro and adds a little to you, basically sticking them to you for a couple seconds. Damage can pull that mob off, but higher level roar means it takes more damage for them to pull a mob off of you. If you are zhenning like in FCC and stop, beastial rage, invoke, and don't roar the first aoe will pull the mobs right off you because you really haven't aggroed. That means you really aren't tanking. Roar + good squad DD means you'll stay the tank until the mobs are dead.

    Some clerics won't put up bb till they see a roar to know everything is aggroed. Slam aoe range=10 meters, Surf Impact = 6 meters, arma = 12m. Sunder = 12m, Roar = 12 m. Roar is has the most aggro range without costing 2 sparks or requiring human form or both.

    If you hit beastial rage and the mobs don't stick to you from roar then you won't get your chi back.

    If you have good DDers and the veno amps or the BM HFs while people spark you might lose aggro. Even spamming FR has lost aggro, so what you need to do is reset it and start spamming FR again, so roar to reset and then spam FR. It's how to hold aggro off of 2.86-4.0 aps players.

    Now to clarify earlier questions: I confused you with comments about sage barbs trying to tank and having a hard time with aggro so the cleric ended up having to heal two people. You thought I meant the cleric would have to heal themselves. What I meant by this was the aggro ping pong between a tank who can't hold aggro, and a DDer who isn't controlling their damage output. If a DDer can tank and is willing to, let them. Devour for them so the boss dies quicker. Don't constantly try to take aggro back and burn out your chi, instead use it to help the DDer. This way the cleric can focus on the DD as the sole tank, not half heal the DDer and half heal the barb who is trying to get aggro back.

    I made this comment because sage demons seem to have a harder time with aggro. This is disagreeing with Frazier, and I don't know where it's been "proven" that they're the same since I think most the pwi community would agree demon barbs have more aggroing ability but are squishier. What has been proven is when it comes to 4.0 and 5.0 aps users sage or demon doesn't make a difference in holding aggro. Mostly it comes down to the players skill. Even though sage and demon aggro skills are similar the fact that you have to pick between 10% more hp and more defense or over twice as much damage in tiger form gives demon barbs a slight edge. Aps users are going to out DD a demon axe barb 5-15 times, but they're going to out DD an axe sage barb 10-30 times.

    Most older players are sage. Most newer players are demon. This is because of the aps craze and the game evolving. You used to not need more than required str and dex in your build, or decent damage to hold aggro. Now you do because of aps and higher refined weapons. Most sage barbs or vit barbs have become less useful or less wanted than they used to be and have quit.

    As for changing once you've picked, you need a celestial schism (10 gold), 200 mirages, and you need to have your culti/chrono done. This means Delta 4, open second map, delta 5, open third map, finish cube, delta 8, open 4th map, and full delta. Most people don't do this until 101 or 102, if ever. Also, once you change you lose all the sage/demon skills you learned. Someone else tell him what the trend has been. Sage->Demon or Demon->Sage?

    Also, Templar, you never mentioned your opinion on whats best for pve since thats the OPs main interest.

    Personally, I have all the hp and defense I need with tt99 and 16k hp so the def or hp boost would be just comfort measure but really just a waste.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Freizer - Lost CityFreizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    For the alpha male and roar; i don't know how anyone can get themselves into trouble like that in fc. The cat is always in front of everyone and bringing them big pulls into the boss rooms does not seem to affect anyone when passed. All it takes to get mobs attention is...you might want to write this down...run past them. :o

    In a perfect world, where your DD decided to stay behind you ya, You could just "run" and get mobs, but that's ineffective and mobs-will-deaggro (surprise surprise) after some distance. and when (not if when) you get to higher levels (95+) you're going to have problems with aggro. (not a matter of skill, just of how this game is structured) And this goes beyond FC, if you ever get into Delta and WS you're going to need both of those skills, because the DD will insta grab your mobs if you just grab them the "run" way. Plus, it's never a good idea as BB (which is always up in Delta and WS) will grab heal aggro if you're not watching.

    Moral of the story, lions roar irl, you should too.


    Edit:

    I made this comment because sage demons seem to have a harder time with aggro. This is disagreeing with Frazier, and I don't know where it's been "proven" that they're the same since I think most the pwi community would agree demon barbs have more aggroing ability. What has been proven is when it comes to 4.0 and 5.0 aps users sage or demon makes little difference in holding aggro. Mostly its skill. Even though sage and demon aggro skills are similar the fact that you have to pick between 10% more hp and more defense or over twice as much damage in tiger form gives demon barbs a slight edge. Aps users are going to out DD a demon axe barb 5-15 times, they're going to out DD an axe sage barb 10-30 times.
    Sorry, I should clarify. I was talking about the in game status since the aps craze (not like anyone playing really remembers before) My point was either sage or demon against the current style (3.0 aps +) it makes less of a difference to the point where it doesn't matter (if you are a traditional axe or so build) if you are demon or sage. So at this point..because of aps aggro shouldn't decide your endgame, unless your planning on going claw. (Once upon a time maybe)

    Hope that makes more sense.



    also as far as trends go:
    lost city personally, was at one point more sage than demon, (very early on) and then almost completely switched over to demon because of the PVP nature of the server. As it is now, i'd bet there are still more demon players out there than sage, but because of the aps barbs are rethinking their choices.


    Most older players are sage. Most newer players are demon. This is because of the aps craze and the game evolving. You used to not need more than required str and dex in your build, or decent damage to hold aggro. Now you do because of aps and higher refined weapons. Most sage barbs or vit barbs have become less useful or less wanted than they used to be and have quit.
    Damn I just want to be loved T.T I got lucky personally to land a solid guild pretty early on. So I have a great friendship with them, and they always find uses for me. That said, yes the two BM's I usually run with have switched over to aps and i'm perfectly fine devouring the boss as well as fleshreming, hell even standing up and DDing. ^^

    (hopefully my last edit, sorry for the disorganized manner)
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • Sakubatou - SanctuarySakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The edit was good, and since we posted at the same time I was hoping you would catch my comments and give your two cents. Good comments, smart sage kitty. b:bye
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Freizer - Lost CityFreizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The edit was good, and since we posted at the same time I was hoping you would catch my comments and give your two cents. Good comments, smart sage kitty. b:bye

    Why Thank you b:shy your comments always provide interesting conversation as well :3
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • Ibitechu - DreamweaverIbitechu - Dreamweaver Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Saku if spamming FR doesn't hold agro, then you might wanna ask the DD to time there attacks better

    When you say twice as much damage in demon , what you mean is that you get the full weapon damage instead of half damage. The agro damage is the same for both versions, hence there should not be a difference between sage and demon using Flesh Ream. Agro is not held by the actual weapon, it is the level skill. I hope we can agree on that.




    b:chuckle
  • Dagnatic - SanctuaryDagnatic - Sanctuary Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Saku if spamming FR doesn't hold agro, then you might wanna ask the DD to time there attacks better

    When you say twice as much damage in demon , what you mean is that you get the full weapon damage instead of half damage. The agro damage is the same for both versions, hence there should not be a difference between sage and demon using Flesh Ream. Agro is not held by the actual weapon, it is the level skill. I hope we can agree on that.




    b:chuckle

    There you a wrong, never heard of Damage Agro? FR cant hold of that S#!^, you go tigre form in any instance and try and keep agro off a 5aps BM/Sin

    Now did your FR keep agro? no Siree i did not, That is why Demon Supposedly holds agro better, the more Dmg you do the More agro you generate, Im really wondering how you got to your level without knowing this?

    My Spider.... wait no, um... My Drop Bear scenes are tingling and there telling me we have a Oracle baby here? or wait no, Hyper baby? no wait, no, Training escortica Hyper oracle baby?

    What im getting at is most people know how to play a barb the day they get pushed into tanking there first BH, aka lvl 40, so by 70, you should know what your doing, and by 90 you really shouldn't have to be asking many people what the hell you have to do.
    Rawr = Good run agro wonly holds agro as long as no one hits the mobs, if no one hits the mobs the mobs dont die, if the mobs dont die, you die, is it clear now?
    Bestalrage -> Invoke -> rawr -> I like to use frighten after rawr -> surf impact -> and if you think you can drop a sunder in and come back out with 2 sparks feel free,
    other than that sit n wait the mobs should be almost dead by now.
  • Sakubatou - SanctuarySakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Saku if spamming FR doesn't hold agro, then you might wanna ask the DD to time there attacks better

    When you say twice as much damage in demon , what you mean is that you get the full weapon damage instead of half damage. The agro damage is the same for both versions, hence there should not be a difference between sage and demon using Flesh Ream. Agro is not held by the actual weapon, it is the level skill. I hope we can agree on that.
    b:chuckle


    My goal as a tank is to allow DDs to do their job while I do mine. This means holding aggro and absorbing the boss damage as they DD. It does not mean asking them to hold back because I can't keep aggro. If they can afford 4.0-5.0 lets hope they can afford some armor refines enough to tank when they rip aggro, then I'll support them with devour and frighten.

    Try to hold aggro with a level 4 white axe, then equip some refined GXs. Since it's all skill spamming based and not damage based it shouldn't make a difference, right? Wrong.

    Think of it this way. Your Aggro Skills vs. 5.0 dmg. Who wins? They do because their damage has overwhelmed your aggro skills. What I'm suggesting is adding more damage of your own to cancel out their damage aggro and avoid your skills being so easily overwhelmed.


    Edit: Just wanted to add I've ripped aggro on my barb from a few sage barbs with damage using axes and tripple spark for damage. No aggro skills. This is why extra damage is important.
    Rawr = Good run agro wonly holds agro as long as no one hits the mobs, if no one hits the mobs the mobs dont die, if the mobs dont die, you die, is it clear now?
    Bestalrage -> Invoke -> rawr -> I like to use frighten after rawr -> surf impact -> and if you think you can drop a sunder in and come back out with 2 sparks feel free,
    other than that sit n wait the mobs should be almost dead by now.

    First off, lol and thanks for some experienced support.

    Second. My combo for zhen pulls is Beastial rage -> Invoke -> Roar, then I Sunder first. The reason for this are
    1. It heals me while cleric catches up and sets up bb
    2. Damage aggro, its one of the strongest aoes we have
    3. Can normally time it for BMs HF
    4. Beastial Rage lasts only 15 seconds (20 sage). So if I use Sunder first the 4 sparks used from invoke and sunder might all be replaced before mobs die or beastial wears off, as well as guarantees aggro is on me for beastial rage.
    5. Sunders heals are just as good as Frightens attack level reduction but Sunder deals damage.

    I then follow with Surf, target big mobs like shades and FR/Devour, and surf again after cd. If you have BP you can human form and Arma and if you don't kill everything you'll keep aggro and get your chi back. I'd recommend having cloud eruption, though if you use arma during pulls. With slow aoe damage squads I'll invoke then beastial for more time of beastial rage. For quick groups I use it before I even stop running.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Xarathox - DreamweaverXarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Now did your FR keep agro? no Siree i did not, That is why Demon Supposedly holds agro better, the more Dmg you do the More agro you generate, Im really wondering how you got to your level without knowing this?

    The difference in damage between a sage and demon barb in tiger is literally null. On a [?] lvl boss, a demon barb in tiger does approximately 50-100 more damage per hit than I do as a sage with similar refines on their weapon. That's not even enough to register.

    The debate about demons having better aggro is more or less a complete myth.

    If someone's going to choose demon over sage, it should be because they've already decided to restat for fist/claws at endgame so they can be 5.0 too, instead of basing it on a myth.
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
  • Korsov - Heavens TearKorsov - Heavens Tear Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    If someone's going to choose demon over sage, it should be because they've already decided to restat for fist/claws at endgame so they can be 5.0 too, instead of basing it on a myth.

    Wow, can't disagree more with this sentiment. Each side has its strengths and weaknesses and a demon barb (non 5.0) can tank anything a sage barb can given similar gear. Granted, at end-game much of this tanking ability is nullified by 5.0 dd's. However, it's completely ridiculous to say that one should only choose the demon path if you plan to restat to claws. Demon onslaught is one of the most insane skills in the entire game, especially if you pvp at all. If you do plan to restat to claws, demon certainly makes the most sense, but demon is NOT the "only do this if you plan to get claws" path.
  • Sakubatou - SanctuarySakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The difference in damage between a sage and demon barb in tiger is literally null. On a [?] lvl boss, a demon barb in tiger does approximately 50-100 more damage per hit than I do as a sage with similar refines on their weapon. That's not even enough to register.

    The debate about demons having better aggro is more or less a complete myth.

    If someone's going to choose demon over sage, it should be because they've already decided to restat for fist/claws at endgame so they can be 5.0 too, instead of basing it on a myth.

    Pretty much disagreed with the entire post, myself. How is half damage and a lower crit rate literally a null difference when tanking? Some sage skills do make up some of the damage difference but not much at all. Remember, skills like Strength of Titans and Axe mastery effect base weapon attack so it's not literally a 10% increase and a 25% increase. It's more like a 3.5% increase and a 4% increase depending on your weapon. Demon gets 2% crit increase for both. Making the damage difference about 4% in human form. Plus, the damage boosts of sage are nullified when in tiger form because even those get cut in half.

    Reasons to go demon other than damage difference and aggro ability, or because you're going fists? Sunder+ Amageddon. Beastial Onslaught (during a spark followed by fists <3). Roar gives a better bramble than the actualy bramble skill. Demon Devour is 15 seconds long which means you can spam FR more effectively without having to take the time to Devour or use the chi. I wouldn't say demon Ream is more effective than Sage Ream because either way you have to manage your chi. If you have a veno to feed you chi or Cloud eruption on your genie demon flesh ream is more spammable and will help you hold aggro.

    Sage has its benefits. More hp and pdef in tiger form. More preffered squad buffs, Titans buffs (50% over 40% weapon damage) and Beast Kings lasts an hour. A "lighter" penalty on arma is favorable by a few. Sunder takes a more defensive use. I like the looks of better mana regen from feral regen, too. I really liked the idea of 45% pdef reduction from Penetrate Armor since it stacks.

    My points were that Sage forces you to chose human for damage, or tiger for tanking. Demon does a better job at rounding them both. I also never have pdef or hp problems so the hp and pdef bonuses from sage are a waste. Overall, I think demon is much more rounded out and versatile. Sage makes a hell of a defensive char that can take alot of damage but does not branch out as much as demon. I also tend to lump sage and vit barbs together, and damage and demon barbs together into my stereotyping which I apologize for when making my statements.

    Side note: I find it interesting how some clerics want their tank to have 35k hp and love sage barbs, and others hate sage barbs because they assume they will constantly lose aggro and it'll be any other char in the squad that tanks. Hmm, when I was chosing my clerics spiritual culti I asked the barbs which they preferred and got a very clear answer (12 to 0 demon clerics, lol). Maybe I'll post in the cleric forums asking if they have a favorite culti of barb to heal.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Sazzora - HarshlandsSazzora - Harshlands Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Make a barb in pwcalc and compare the damage in tiger form with demon mastery/titan vs. sage mastery/titan. Damage difference should be ~5% no big deal really on a [?] boss. ijs
  • DangerField - DreamweaverDangerField - Dreamweaver Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    @Saku it has been nice having you troll these forums but pls make it stop!

    Tiger form gives half dmg but titans give 10% increase? do you see where ur logic is flawed?

    Barbs dont get denied to a squad based on their culti! you get denied to a squad based on 3 things!
    1: you are not an aps char (only applies 100+ for nirv and 3-3)
    2: Reputation, skills, gear! (your overall quality as a player)
    3: Someone in squad is holding a grudge against you!


    ppl should choose their culti based on 2 things!

    1: do they want to be a claw barb!
    2: their skill preferences in PvP (including tw)

    If you are an axe barb and only plan on pve it pretty much dont matter what culti you choose.

    Even if it were true that demon are better tanks I ask you this; tank for what?
    Nirv + 3-3: you are either aps or run with friends!
    everything else: It doesnt matter one bit!
  • Must - Lost CityMust - Lost City Posts: 555 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    @Saku it has been nice having you troll these forums but pls make it stop!

    Tiger form gives half dmg but titans give 10% increase? do you see where ur logic is flawed?

    Barbs dont get denied to a squad based on their culti! you get denied to a squad based on 3 things!
    1: you are not an aps char (only applies 100+ for nirv and 3-3)
    2: Reputation, skills, gear! (your overall quality as a player)
    3: Someone in squad is holding a grudge against you!


    ppl should choose their culti based on 2 things!

    1: do they want to be a claw barb!
    2: their skill preferences in PvP (including tw)

    If you are an axe barb and only plan on pve it pretty much dont matter what culti you choose.

    Even if it were true that demon are better tanks I ask you this; tank for what?
    Nirv + 3-3: you are either aps or run with friends!
    everything else: It doesnt matter one bit!


    And yours is flaweled cause u forget that fang gives more dmg on demon sideb:bye

    Cant believe you guys miss demon B. Onslaugh wich is prob the best skill for a barb..


    And i lol hard when i see sage = cata why im demon i cant be a cata????


    Funny thing most of the catas in LC are demon..... the game has refines ijs......

    Go demon for the critical increased for the spike dmg to get(if you can nowdays) better agro.......

    Go demon cause sunder is amazing , go demon cause armaggedon is much better, go demon cause stomp dont miss(this is actuallly good againt sins/archers)...

    And well besides bhs at 100 what u gonna do more thna pvping???? tank bhs for nubs???

    Overall go demon..

    Well but this is just me.....
  • Freizer - Lost CityFreizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    @Saku it has been nice having you troll these forums but pls make it stop!Since when is typing out well thought out neutral opinions considered trolling? His statements were pretty neutral expressing what he feels are good points about both cultis, and then explaining why he doesn't (personally) like one in perticular.
    (I like the bit about the cleric)


    Tiger form gives half dmg but titans give 10% increase? do you see where ur logic is flawed? The logic that sage barbs still do less damage? (myself included) you can't just point fingers and not elaborate we're not fooled.

    Barbs dont get denied to a squad based on their culti! you get denied to a squad based on 3 things! Right, but the squad will sure as hell groan about it privately if you're not demon/sage based on what they need at the moment. I've gotten yelled at by squads for not being demon at least once or twice.
    1: you are not an aps char (only applies 100+ for nirv and 3-3)
    Only a "small" number of squads most people are happy to have a barb.

    2: Reputation, skills, gear! (your overall quality as a player)
    Reputation is a small percentage mostly because of how many people play this game and how easy it is to get to 100. Also most people wont care about your gear IF you prove that you can still hold your own at your level. (This doesn't mean show up to a NV squad decked out in TT70 but i'm more apt to see why people wear the gear they do and how it factors into their playing. (like me and my magic rings)

    3: Someone in squad is holding a grudge against you!



    ppl should choose their culti based on 2 things!

    1: do they want to be a claw barb!
    I've met sage Claw barbs and Vit demon barbs. To be honest this is not something you should only base your path on but part of the many things you should factor in into your choice. Barbarian is a wonderful class in the fact it is pretty open ended at end game as far as choices go. (lot of different builds and styles that work well)
    2: their skill preferences in PvP (including tw)
    I would think about PVE as well, other wise you do end up with a bad reputation and not wanted in squads like you posted above. PVE and PVP are both part of this game, and you can't just pick one or the other. I'm sage because i'm defensive in both PVE and PVP.

    If you are an axe barb and only plan on pve it pretty much dont matter what culti you choose. Wrong, each of the cultis bring something unique to the table, along with the uniqueness of the people who choose to play them. I've seen scary sage axe barbs, and equally scary demon barbs but for different reasons than each other.

    Even if it were true that demon are better tanks I ask you this; tank for what?
    Nirv + 3-3: you are either aps or run with friends!
    Doesn't this nullify your whole point right here about being rejected in squads for gear/skill/reputation? I smell self contradiction. Also once again, depending how you play, for instance with the GBA boss (since it was changed) if we have one cleric me and a demon barb friend of mine will go in and tag team the sucker. I'll take most of the damage and he'll deal damage and hold it while I stand up and rebuff everyone. This is based on the fact I have more Hp and pdef in him and have a better chance of living to buff the party in anthro. It's a perfect balance and it works well, but with each of us using our unique skills.
    everything else: It doesnt matter one bit!
    In short? let everyone play the way they want, because that's all you can ask from the player base. If you research your choice, stick with it, and are able to defend why you did what you did people will give you the respect you deserve as a player and a tank.
    And well besides bhs at 100 what u gonna do more thna pvping???? tank bhs for nubs???
    @MUST But I like helping my lower level guildies! it's how they learn Q.Q

    Go demon cause sunder is amazing , go demon cause armaggedon is much better, go demon cause stomp dont miss(this is actuallly good againt sins/archers)...
    Go sage because sunder is amazing, go sage because arma doesn't leave you dead, go sage because stomp gives you 20chi, (flesh reme, mighty swing, and acc. pots take care of archers and sins) Simply saying something is "amazing" a compelling argument does not make, and can be turned right back on you by people who feel the same way about the other choice.
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • Must - Lost CityMust - Lost City Posts: 555 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    In short? let everyone play the way they want, because that's all you can ask from the player base. If you research your choice, stick with it, and are able to defend why you did what you did people will give you the respect you deserve as a player and a tank.
    And well besides bhs at 100 what u gonna do more thna pvping???? tank bhs for nubs???
    @MUST But I like helping my lower level guildies! it's how they learn Q.Q

    Go demon cause sunder is amazing , go demon cause armaggedon is much better, go demon cause stomp dont miss(this is actuallly good againt sins/archers)...
    Go sage because sunder is amazing, go sage because arma doesn't leave you dead, go sage because stomp gives you 20chi, (flesh reme, mighty swing, and acc. pots take care of archers and sins) Simply saying something is "amazing" a compelling argument does not make, and can be turned right back on you by people who feel the same way about the other choice.

    Shure nob learn by having a 100 barb tanking theyr bhs not by finnding a squad doing bhs has a team.. nice one.....


    Sry but i found demon skill at least the ones that you refer much better on demon and nothing can beat demon B.Onslaught..

    Pot...... sry i go full bound ekip dont use nothing on pvp besides a charm......

    Anyway i think sage is just a bigger punch bag at least demon has more options.....

    Nothing wrong with sage be *** being just a puch bag all day long is really not for me...
  • DangerField - DreamweaverDangerField - Dreamweaver Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I think you misunderstand me.
    to saku I meant how argue that sage does half dmg in tiger meanwhile he argue that the passive skills are based on weapon dmg. They are all based on weapon dmg.

    I am not saying that one is better than the other, but that ppl should choose based on pvp preferences or if they wanna be aps.
    Yes demon can be cata pullers but sage are better (assuming equal gear)
    Yes I think demon have better pvp skills.
    Yes sage clawbuilt is possible but expensive.

    For the life of me that ppl say they are refused to squads based on culti I simply dont understand.
    Ive played this game more than 2 years and 2 times have I been rejected to a squad(to my memory)
    once on a personal issue and another because someone was holding a grudge against my faction.

    I have no interest in discussing which culti is overall better because it is redundant. choose which suits you.
  • Freizer - Lost CityFreizer - Lost City Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Shure nob learn by having a 100 barb tanking theyr bhs not by finnding a squad doing bhs has a team.. nice one.....
    This evidently needs explanation. There is nothing wrong with taking a 100 barb with a FULL squad of semi lower levels. I go on "first" timer H-H and some BH because that's right I wont die. This frees up the squad to make their mistakes that happen during a first time HH/ect. (IE cleric forgetting to heal on a boss ,or AOE bosses.) I explain what will happen to the squad, so they know and thus can do it on their own next time. Tell me how that's wrong again? If I have the information i'm going to share it with my guild mates so they in turn can do better on their own.

    Sry but i found demon skill at least the ones that you refer much better on demon and nothing can beat demon B.Onslaught..
    You, personally find them better that's my whole point, and presumably why you chose demon. (and you mentioned them first I was just parroting back what you said to prove the point that you didn't give me any real information about why they were better and that it was just as easy for me to say "ya these are awsome for sage")
    Pot...... sry i go full bound ekip dont use nothing on pvp besides a charm......
    I feel like I should head desk here, but I'd rather avoid the headache. It's cheaper to know what you're doing and farm appoc Items than to consistently spend 3mil (and yes they are 3-4mil for a plat on Lost)

    Anyway i think sage is just a bigger punch bag at least demon has more options.....
    And those options are? this goes back to being " well this skill is just wonderful for demons neyh" give me a reason! lets get a healthy debate going. I'm willing to say EXACTLY why I enjoy sage over demon, and i'm willing to debate with you about why but "because it's awsome" is no more a reason than " because I said so"

    Nothing wrong with sage be *** being just a puch bag all day long is really not for me...
    Sage Barbs aren't just punching bags, but that seems to be your impression, why do you think so? (I'm not denying that most of my playing style revolves around getting hit for chi, so I can sunder /arma/turtle/three spark but that's my reasoning and not yours :3
    I need to stop replying just in quotes, it's getting trouble some to think of things to say outside of them
    Yes sage clawbuilt is possible but expensive
    All claw barb builds are expensive, the class isn't built to utilize dex (IE our stat bonus's come from Vit) so over hall is hard on both demon and sage
    Lost City Sage barb and Retired Coven Marshal.
  • Xarathox - DreamweaverXarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Pretty much disagreed with the entire post, myself. How is half damage and a lower crit rate literally a null difference when tanking? Some sage skills do make up some of the damage difference but not much at all. Remember, skills like Strength of Titans and Axe mastery effect base weapon attack so it's not literally a 10% increase and a 25% increase. It's more like a 3.5% increase and a 4% increase depending on your weapon. Demon gets 2% crit increase for both. Making the damage difference about 4% in human form. Plus, the damage boosts of sage are nullified when in tiger form because even those get cut in half.

    Reasons to go demon other than damage difference and aggro ability, or because you're going fists? Sunder+ Amageddon. Beastial Onslaught (during a spark followed by fists <3). Roar gives a better bramble than the actualy bramble skill. Demon Devour is 15 seconds long which means you can spam FR more effectively without having to take the time to Devour or use the chi. I wouldn't say demon Ream is more effective than Sage Ream because either way you have to manage your chi. If you have a veno to feed you chi or Cloud eruption on your genie demon flesh ream is more spammable and will help you hold aggro.

    Sage has its benefits. More hp and pdef in tiger form. More preffered squad buffs, Titans buffs (50% over 40% weapon damage) and Beast Kings lasts an hour. A "lighter" penalty on arma is favorable by a few. Sunder takes a more defensive use. I like the looks of better mana regen from feral regen, too. I really liked the idea of 45% pdef reduction from Penetrate Armor since it stacks.

    My points were that Sage forces you to chose human for damage, or tiger for tanking. Demon does a better job at rounding them both. I also never have pdef or hp problems so the hp and pdef bonuses from sage are a waste. Overall, I think demon is much more rounded out and versatile. Sage makes a hell of a defensive char that can take alot of damage but does not branch out as much as demon. I also tend to lump sage and vit barbs together, and damage and demon barbs together into my stereotyping which I apologize for when making my statements.

    Side note: I find it interesting how some clerics want their tank to have 35k hp and love sage barbs, and others hate sage barbs because they assume they will constantly lose aggro and it'll be any other char in the squad that tanks. Hmm, when I was chosing my clerics spiritual culti I asked the barbs which they preferred and got a very clear answer (12 to 0 demon clerics, lol). Maybe I'll post in the cleric forums asking if they have a favorite culti of barb to heal.

    My post was assuming a pure tiger build for both sides. And it was also addressing the accusations that a demon tiger build was better at holding aggro, which is a complete myth.

    My personal build is a slight hybrid with slightly more str than a pure vit build. My dex is capped at 50 and even then I still manage to have 18% crit rate (artificially) with weapons and ornaments. Most vit built demon barbs don't even have that since most of those are trying to close the gap between the hp loss from demon true form.

    The only way a demon barbs higher crit rate would affect aggro holding any better than a sage is if they switched back and forth between upright/tiger spamming titans and onslaught, which in most scenarios, would instantly get them killed.
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
This discussion has been closed.