My Sin rant... casters suck in melle range

Furries - Dreamweaver · January 2011

this is me ranting about why i don't like Sins.

now i want to start this off with a few notes.
first of which is. i dont like PLAYING sin.
im not on a pk server and i dont pk because of the moronic item drop. im not talking about sins being overpowered.

when the tideborn expansion came out i made a sin. i learned how to play sin. but there were a few things that just really annoyed me.

first and foremost. sins are squishy as hell...
sins have awesome DPS. and throughout my time playing sin i came to realize that, it doesn't play as a melee char but as a caster.

melee chars are desinged to be able to take hits, and good damage.

casters are designed to kite, they kill stuff b4 they get hit and therefore large spike damage, either per hit or high crit.

so as a sin i can kill stuff fast but cant take hits.
only problem im not killing stuff from 25+ meters away.
im stuck in melee range and taking hits.

and sins have 2nd highest attack speed with daggers. giving us both the option to use DPS or spike damage.

yeah dps is great. problem is. EVERY SINGLE BLOODY ATTACK wont resume auto attack (normal hits) afterwards. so yeah i can use a skill but then i got to walk closer to get in melee range and go back to normal attacks. well great i just lost about 3+ seconds of normal dps doing that 1 skill.

so i tried macros.. to put an auto attck after each skill. expect then i cant see the icons, the description, there arn't enough macros for all the skills and i cant use macros for ACTUAL macros for linking real skills.

again this is forcing you to use the +2 range on the attacks to stay just out of melee range of mobs. forcing you to act as a caster.

oh and we get no heal. and no sorry bloodpaint does NOT even remotely cut it.

sure bloodpaint is enough to keep u alive in an weak aoe when someone else is tanking but as a self heal its useless. if im at low health i cant use bloodpaint to get higher health becuase id have to run into a mob... bloodpaint does help reduce the overall damage u take. but it is in no way a heal. Exculding absurdly high aps ofc...

so i ended up replacing my sin with a fist bm.
i have the same damage as a sin my lvl (well more becuase my wep is +5)
i have better Defense, WAY higher hp, a REALLY nice self heal.
my skills resume normal attack afterwards.
i also get acces to some aoe skill if i put on my nice axes.
i can stunlock. i have a reliable interupt skill for no chi

and what do i lose?
i lose infinite sparks. well hey i still got the next best chi gain there is with my dps
i lose tackling slash. so no really nice long freeze to stop runners. but unless they are PURE magic mobs with no melee attack they only run away twice, and even that can be prevented with stuns or a well placed tiger leap.
i lose - interval on rank armor. ok well that really sucks but i still get cyclone heel and fists have higher base attack speed of -.10 aps to begins with.
and well evasion is usless in PVE so thats not even worth counting
i lose stealth. well stealth is stupid in duels and not really all that useful in pve unless u just wanna run past mobs

So that's why i stopped playing my sin.

i do love to have sins is sqaud for bloodpaint though.

becuase on my fist bm. a char with high hp and nice defense. bloodpaint can actually be useful as a heal becuase i'm taking less damage to begin with.

so yeah fist bm > sin

Firefeng - Dreamweaver · January 2011

I just soloed an FC up to the big room on my 94 Sin. Go do that on your 92 Barb, then talk to me about being "squishy".

Bloodpaint heals me for more than Diamond Sutra, I do more damage than a fist BM, I can maintain indefinite demon sparks with my Sin's Chi skills even if I'm not at 4/5 APS (yet...), and I sure as Hell wouldn't be soloing FC on my Blademaster.

So, pretty much, you don't like Sin because you suck at it?

Foxxy_skai - Raging Tide · January 2011

I agree with Firefeng.

I'm only level 64 on my sin, and with just the basic gear that I can get at 64 (rank 4 top and bottom, boots of tiger str, random quest helmet, tt60 daggers, etc), I can survive pretty well.

With the way I play, I can perma-double-spark at any time. Doing that against mobs that I need to kill, I don't die easily. I get my health back quickly with double spark and bloodpaint, and I also have health pots if I need it.

Health pots are cheap, and that's just if I need it.

I just started playing a sin recently, and I've learned a lot on how to survive. I'm a pure dex build to boot.

Though the lower levels were painfully hard to get through because of the reasons you've stated, BUT as most people say, the higher level you get, the easier it is to play a sin. I'm experiencing that hands-on, and I'm liking it.

Of the things I've heard about a sin, I'm glad I started playing one

And about not-autoattacking right after a skill, that is true.. But I don't know if you know, you can drag the "attack" action under the "E" tab to your skillbar, and if you click it you'll start autoattacking again..

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · January 2011

Well, I agree with you on alot of this, but it leads me to ask

"What level is your Sin?"

These all sound like problems sins experience in the 20-45 range.

but I'll give notes instead
*melee attack first, then skill. If you run at a mob with a skill waiting it will trigger at max range then close in for melee. If you attack once first then use skills you won't need to adjust your range again, but the mob might making it lose time in attacking instead.

*Your dmg/heal catch up to your squishiness. While a LA Sin may not be able to take a single hit as well as a bm/barb they are constantly filling up their health bar. As you level higher and higher you become able to take hits close to as well as a barb/bm but your damage is higher than theirs and your hp barb fills sickenly fast. Sins become godly the more they level, Barbs and BM's somewhat plataue.

*Less aoes than a BM but much better spike dmg and much better skills. Earthen Rift does 400% (430% sage) base weapon dmg. Bm aoes get something like 120%. Not to mention all the pre-aoe skills you can use to boost like Chill of the Deep and Wolf Emblem to increase it even higher.

*Agreed, Rib Strike and other skills not going into an auto attack after is annoying. I've always assumed it was a glitch/defect that would be updated with a patch someday, but in the meantime I will have to struggle through the efforts of double clicking to restart an auto attack after.

***** Macros. Sins get aps way too easy and endgame Sins have very little use for any other skill than auto attack, unfortunately. Get fancy and shadow escape, stealth, wolf emblem, or teleport in, but to actually kill its spark->auto attack->follow behind

*Sorry, Fist BM damage doesn't match Sin dmg. Why? All weapons have about the same DoT base before interval. Axes (slowest weapon) have a higher average attack but when multiplied by their slow attack rate they're the same as Fist's average attack multiplied by its fast attack rate.

In other words .83 axes = 1.43 fists, 1.43 axes > 1.43 fists.
For the same reasons 1.25 daggers = 1.43 fist, 5.0 daggers > 5.0 Fists

Beyond that. endgame sins have almost 500 dex as their damage multiplier (dex effects dagger weapon dmg). End game BM's have about 375 str (strength effects fist dmg) and 200 dex. Every 150 dex multiplies daggers base dmg once, every 150 strength multiplies fists dmg once. So Sins get almost an entire damage multiplier over BMs., not to mentioned 25% crit rate before gear vs. 10%.

*BM's have horible mdef and usually use magic ornies to compensate. Sins have decent mdef, and less than desirable pdef, so they usually use pdef ornies. These don't give much extra pdef until they are highly refined but endgame ornies with good refines can gives thousands of extra pdef.

*Diamond Sutra is 20% + xxx hp. This becomes a smaller and smaller chunk the more hp you have, whereas Bloodpaint gets stronger endgame.

It's all about the endgame. As much as I love my fist BM, sin endgame is insane. My goal is to have "near sin damage" as my BM endgame with the versatility of the BM skills.b:surrender

Furries - Dreamweaver · January 2011

ok so i looked at my sin again. he is 65.. i really though i had posted that.. oh well

he has about 2.5k hp which i can probably raise to 3k with gems and refines

his damage per hit is higher than my fist bm. although only just

double sparked i heal roughly the same amount of damage i take.

and i got about 250 hp pots on him... which means i dont seem to be using them....

so....

it could be.. im just used to never having to use hp pots.b:sad
i guess i could make him better. still like my bm more though.

yeah i think more than anything is the fact that im not used to using hp pots...b:surrender

all my other chars have self heals...

Foxxy_skai - Raging Tide · January 2011

I know exactly what you mean Furries. My other character is a veno, and I never used ANY pots, except for MP if my Nature's Grace is on cd. Pets tanked mobs for me. If I ever get hit, I have Metabolic Boost.

The main self heal Sins will have is their Bloodpaint, but once they're 79 Healing Trance is amazing.

Sanctam - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »

all my other chars have self heals...

You'd hate archer then, no heals whatsoever. We don't even get bp.

SaiIorMoon - Lost City · January 2011

Foxxy_skai - Raging Tide wrote: »

I know exactly what you mean Furries. My other character is a veno, and I never used ANY pots, except for MP if my Nature's Grace is on cd. Pets tanked mobs for me. If I ever get hit, I have Metabolic Boost.

The main self heal Sins will have is their Bloodpaint, but once they're 79 Healing Trance is still worthless.

fixed.

Foxxy_skai - Raging Tide · January 2011

SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »

fixed.

I re-read the skill and all that it does. It does look worthless b:surrender

Firefeng - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Foxxy_skai - Raging Tide wrote: »

I re-read the skill and all that it does. It does look worthless b:surrender

Actually, on paper it sounds awesome. Unfortunately, in the game you're not allowed to do anything at all with it up. Now, if you could keep it on as a self-buff while attacking/etc., yes, it would be stupidly awesome.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

*BM's have horible mdef and usually use magic ornies to compensate. Sins have decent mdef, and less than desirable pdef, so they usually use pdef ornies. These don't give much extra pdef until they are highly refined but endgame ornies with good refines can gives thousands of extra pdef.

I agreed with just about everything you wrote but this. While expensive, BMs can still hit 5 aps and use magic ornies. At higher refines, and with demon magic marrow, it's entirely possible for an endgame BM to have more pdef/mdef than a Sin. There's a reason archers used to complain about the inefficacy of light armor at endgame compared to Arcane/HA.

Of course, that's not gonna save either of us from rank 9 mages, but still...

Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »

ok so i looked at my sin again. he is 65.. i really though i had posted that.. oh well

he has about 2.5k hp which i can probably raise to 3k with gems and refines

his damage per hit is higher than my fist bm. although only just

double sparked i heal roughly the same amount of damage i take.

and i got about 250 hp pots on him... which means i dont seem to be using them....

so....

it could be.. im just used to never having to use hp pots.b:sad
i guess i could make him better. still like my bm more though.

yeah i think more than anything is the fact that im not used to using hp pots...b:surrender

all my other chars have self heals...

Sounds like you need a better weapon, then. At that level, I only had to pot on every other mob, and that was with never sparking because it seemed like a waste (mobs died too fast). At 94, I don't even bother using Rib Strike to reduce the amount of damage I take anymore. I just auto-attack (with Wind Shield on Inc. Life/Def mobs) and never have to worry about my health.

I save pots/charms for the hard **** I pretend I can solo.

Malkomod - Harshlands · January 2011

Yesterday I tanked wyvern of bh 51 and I succeed. Sins are not as squishy as you might think Furries. Your thread is concerning the PvE aspect of the sins so I will tell you what I understand from it.

You talk about bloodpaint as ''self heal''. This is obviously not a self heal before you get 5 aps. BP is only designed to recover some points. Sins are not tankers even if they are a melee class. In other MMORPG they are nammed as thiefs. The role of sin is complex in PvE. Sin is a DDer class because of the high dps it deal. Means if aggro is stolen by a caster , sin can tele and steal the aggro than run untill cleric gets other people rez or stuff like this. Sin can also protect cleric easier with his teleport skills. Sin can also stun a mob for a while. Ribstrike make the mobs deal less damage to the tank. Plus, bloodpaint work on BM and Barb. Invisibility is really usefull in PvE too.... When you are higher level you can go right to the boss without killing the mobs around!

In PvP, Sins are awesome. With a good strategy, a blademaster same level as a sin is hard to beat but not impossible since we have stuns and a forced stealth skill which give us a ''break'' between hits, and make cooldown spells. But yes the weak spot of the sin is the melee attackers. This can be resolved using genie skills.

Anyway i think Sins are awesome in PvE and PvP. I guess you just have to practice with it.

Furries - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sounds like you need a better weapon, then. At that level, I only had to pot on every other mob, and that was with never sparking because it seemed like a waste (mobs died too fast). At 94, I don't even bother using Rib Strike to reduce the amount of damage I take anymore. I just auto-attack (with Wind Shield on Inc. Life/Def mobs) and never have to worry about my health.

I save pots/charms for the hard **** I pretend I can solo.

every other mob? i can go about 6 or 7 mobs b4 i have to pot.

so im actully supposed to use pots... ok now i just feel stupid...

my main is a barb.. i have to Hp pots like every hour

my cleric never needs to hp pot

bm hp pots like once every half hour

wizard pots like once every 20 min( only when i dont have the time to dew)

i really tend to just use pots for emergencies....
every 6th mob or so is like absurdly frequent for me...

and your saying u have to pot every OTHER mob?

so my sin is.. better than normal....

that just makes me feel really stupid.

all i had to do was use pots...

*FacePaw*

Firefeng - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »

every other mob? i can go about 6 or 7 mobs
and your saying u have to pot every OTHER mob?

so my sin is.. better than normal....

that just makes me feel really stupid.

all i had to do was use pots...

*FacePaw*

Nah, I'm saying I used to, mostly to save on charm tics. At your level, I could have just double sparked every mob and probably only pot as often as you do, but I was (am...) really lazy. After my Sin got decent HP/damage, haven't had to pot on normal mobs, mostly because they die before they get more than 2 hits off.

GetPoked - Sanctuary · January 2011

ive said it before and ill say it again, get what ever class your trying out to 89, and see how it is

at that point you start to get a feel for what kind of endgame power you will have, especially with a sin, jsut adding demon spark means you can start soloing bosses(like turtle and serp in bh69)

Crypsis - Lost City · January 2011

Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yeah dps is great. problem is. EVERY SINGLE BLOODY ATTACK wont resume auto attack (normal hits) afterwards.

This i agree is annoying. On both Barb and Bm you start auto attacking after using skill. Sins actually have to click auto attack again - this makes lazy people rage b:angry

But in terms of being more squishy than a BM; it doesn't matter in pve since assassins dont take a lot of dmg in the first place. Bosses/mobs attacks speed gets lowered in half pretty much with Ribstrike, Focused Mind on top of that and you get hit for 1 dmg every 4 hit or so, rest of it you pretty much resists with triple spark lol.

Blood paint does heal for a lot once you get higher attack and interval. I think BP is better than your average cleric tbh. Bloodpaint wont go afk or start DD-ing the boss instead of healing

Only problem for sins is bosses using random high magic attacks, but like i said you resist most of that with triple spark or they hit you for 1 dmg b:chuckle.

Sereneai - Dreamweaver · January 2011

I have no problems with pots. even with my [very, extremely, not TT] crappy gear b:shocked if you either 2spark (cheaper) or atk-stun-atk (good for kiting mobs), BP should be enough to keep you running pretty smooth, pot every handful of mobs.

The lack of auto attack for skills is really annoying, especially when I'm laggy, but i have it hotkeyed to f1, just slap and go.

NiceFire - Harshlands · January 2011

Sereneai - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have no problems with pots. even with my [very, extremely, not TT] crappy gear b:shocked if you either 2spark (cheaper) or atk-stun-atk (good for kiting mobs), BP should be enough to keep you running pretty smooth, pot every handful of mobs.

The lack of auto attack for skills is really annoying, especially when I'm laggy, but i have it hotkeyed to f1, just slap and go.

what would it mean if s 5x sin can kill without skills.. without pots.. endlessly??

Sereneai - Dreamweaver · January 2011

NiceFire - Harshlands wrote: »

what would it mean if s 5x sin can kill without skills.. without pots.. endlessly??

It probably means they aren't wearing NPC gear 10-15 lvls lower than themselves, with a slightly laggy connection b:chuckle

VyperionV - Lost City · February 2011

Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »

this is me ranting about why i don't like Sins.(..........)so yeah fist bm > sin

I played sin in many games and from my experience i can tell you this:
1)Sin is suppose to be squishy as hell because it's pure dd. Kill all and be killed by all.
2)They have 2nd fastest atk because they have more dmg and crit than other classes.
3)They're suppose to suck in pve and rock in pvp. However in pwi sin is not actually sin. Sin is more of a bad joke if u ask me.
-Stealth depends on level (higher players can see "invisible" sins). That is biggest **** ever.
-They suck in mass pk since they don't have defense, defensive skills or ranged atks like other classes. All they can do is go in stealth mode and stealth mode rly has a dam long cooldlown.
-They do have skills that refill chi but they have cooldown as well and all the good skills require 1-2 chi bars.
-Cooldown for some skills is insane (3 min to wait for a stun to cooldown...)
-Shadow teleport/jump are bugged in some dungeons. They are casted but sin remains in his place.

People usually complain about them that they are OP but the fact is sins are not OP at all. They are useful in 1 on 1 but suck in mass pk. All classes have + and -
In other games sins have more advantages and nobody is complaining

_/Light - Raging Tide · February 2011

Every character has its ups and downs. And really, it depends on what your personality is. If everyone is the same, why make so many classes? Just have one if everyone is the same.
I'm a 7X sin now. I can say that my lower levels consumed a lot of pots. The higher levels consumes a lot of coins as well because I need to upgrade skills(however this is true for all classes).
Really though, the coins used in the early levels to pot DOES NOT really matter compared to the end game features a sin wants to get.
Although I'm always having second thoughts to make a mystic or a seeker because the expansion is coming out. At the same time I want to finsih my sin because it's so fun. Although I feel that a venomancer and a cleric fused together(although not 100% of each) will be coin efficient and easy to play. (My first character was a venomancer. I quit at around 8X because a herc was quite difficult to get. (Yes I know, a sin is even harder to fund))

Jellytoast - Sanctuary · February 2011

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

I played sin in many games and from my experience i can tell you this:
1)Sin is suppose to be squishy as hell because it's pure dd. Kill all and be killed by all.
2)They have 2nd fastest atk because they have more dmg and crit than other classes.
3)They're suppose to suck in pve and rock in pvp. However in pwi sin is not actually sin. Sin is more of a bad joke if u ask me.
-Stealth depends on level (higher players can see "invisible" sins). That is biggest **** ever.
-They suck in mass pk since they don't have defense, defensive skills or ranged atks like other classes. All they can do is go in stealth mode and stealth mode rly has a dam long cooldlown.
-They do have skills that refill chi but they have cooldown as well and all the good skills require 1-2 chi bars.
-Cooldown for some skills is insane (3 min to wait for a stun to cooldown...)
-Shadow teleport/jump are bugged in some dungeons. They are casted but sin remains in his place.

People usually complain about them that they are OP but the fact is sins are not OP at all. They are useful in 1 on 1 but suck in mass pk. All classes have + and -
In other games sins have more advantages and nobody is complaining

Or they teleport to a harpy in FCC and end up on the ceiling! Funniest thing ever.

Typhyse - Sanctuary · February 2011

Malkomod - Harshlands wrote: »

Yesterday I tanked wyvern of bh 51 and I succeed. Sins are not as squishy as you might think Furries. Your thread is concerning the PvE aspect of the sins so I will tell you what I understand from it.

You talk about bloodpaint as ''self heal''. This is obviously not a self heal before you get 5 aps. BP is only designed to recover some points. Sins are not tankers even if they are a melee class. In other MMORPG they are nammed as thiefs. The role of sin is complex in PvE. Sin is a DDer class because of the high dps it deal. Means if aggro is stolen by a caster , sin can tele and steal the aggro than run untill cleric gets other people rez or stuff like this. Sin can also protect cleric easier with his teleport skills. Sin can also stun a mob for a while. Ribstrike make the mobs deal less damage to the tank. Plus, bloodpaint work on BM and Barb. Invisibility is really usefull in PvE too.... When you are higher level you can go right to the boss without killing the mobs around!

In PvP, Sins are awesome. With a good strategy, a blademaster same level as a sin is hard to beat but not impossible since we have stuns and a forced stealth skill which give us a ''break'' between hits, and make cooldown spells. But yes the weak spot of the sin is the melee attackers. This can be resolved using genie skills.

Anyway i think Sins are awesome in PvE and PvP. I guess you just have to practice with it.

OMG thank you! It's about time someone realized that unless 90+ with 2+ aps and cashshopped to hell, sins are rogues intended to quickly save the casters and rip through mobs one at a time, not gods that can omgwtfpwned everything in sight.

rawrtynne · February 2011

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

OMG thank you! It's about time someone realized that unless 90+ with 2+ aps and cashshopped to hell, sins are rogues intended to quickly save the casters and rip through mobs one at a time, not gods that can omgwtfpwned everything in sight.

b:pleased This.

And btw; Healing Trance doesn't suck that bad.... I'm able to farm for hours on just 10 hp pots (lvl 70) and 10 Mp pots by just auto attacking and evading a hell of a lot of the attacks. not to mention BP+ 6~9k crits every other hit you're hp goes up pretty quick.

Henchman - Dreamweaver · February 2011

I dunno, I don't have two aps, But when I sage spark and rib strike, or aoe a group in an fc, my hp fills pretty damn quick. Seems much like a self heal to me.

VyperionV - Lost City · February 2011

Mine doesn't refill fast when i hit 1 single mob. When i aoe yes...it fills fast but when i use normal atks i must use pots.

VyperionV - Lost City · February 2011

Depends on your built though...i am pure dex built

SaiIorMoon - Lost City · February 2011

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

Mine doesn't refill fast when i hit 1 single mob. When i aoe yes...it fills fast but when i use normal atks i must use pots.

I don't really aoe that much and mine fills up and stays filled up...for example, in frost doing the big room, I can easily pull multiple groups, triple spark normal attack-tab-normal-tab etc and my hp is constantly full, and no i'm not 5.0.

I noticed in bh SoT the other day when the BM dragoned I was healing myself for 12xx-1800 per crit, those are the highest numbers i've seen so far.

But far less than some/most have probably.

VyperionV - Lost City · February 2011

Ofc but what happens when a mob puts u to sleep, stun, silence or debuffs you?
I have r8 dagger +2 atm and my HP is very low since i have no stones in armor and no defensive refinement. Also i got 5 vit. My HP doesn;t stay full when i agro more groups in frost. If your pdef is good then yes, you can agro more mobs and tank them all but if your def sux then ur hp won't stay full.
In pvp Veno debufs and even a genie skill has chance to debuff. Let;s not talk about weps that have dispel positive effects. So BP has advantages but it's not permanent therefor i consider this issue to be fair. It;s just like bm that has defensive aura.

My Sin rant... casters suck in melle range

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