APS getting nerfed! True or False?

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  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    i love how you ignored the arguments about TWb:cute

    here is some more stuff to ignore:

    why should i make a farming alt?
    if you are unhappy with ur role in TW then I could say: make a TW alt.
    and guess what. you can easily make a r9+12 TW alt.

    why having an aweful past means that we MUST have an aweful future?

    u say that we shouldnt care how fast u farm; make our own squads
    then why do you care how fast casters will farm?
    what's the reason u dont want some sort of money making instance for casters?
    I edited it, re read.



    Again, casters are good in PvP, and sacrifice PvE utility for it.

    You don't see me making threads about how casters are too OP in TW.



    I don't care, I'm pointing out that you sacrifice PvE utility to be superior in PvP.
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  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    but why should it be like that?

    now, ofc you can say that pwe wants to make $$ from ppl rolling 2 toons instead of one
    but i dont see why we shouldnt have equality between classes both pvp and pve-wise.
    equal but different ofc; maybe one class could have a bit of an edge in one section
    (like it was before the -int craze?) maybe archer will have higher dps but wizzies wouldnt take 5x the time to farm something

    (the $$ thingy is kinda meh argument since most 5aps ppl have almost a second set of gears for pvp;
    i'm not against requiring specific equipment to be good in pve as a mage like totaly crappy defense wise gear (something like -chan) that boosts the pve dmg)
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Honestly if this was a year ago then yea it would be kinda bogus but....



    You can get a char to 100 in a few weeks.

    Like you said, most people have two sets of gears for farming and PvP as it is, so why not just make a farming char.



    Yea, if this was a year ago then it would suck but really all you need to do is.



    #1. Make a BM

    #2. Get a friend to take you to FC runs, do the TB chain (free plat charm)

    #3. Once you hit 70 use orbs that you got from BH100 on your main char

    #4. Do a few FC runs.


    You'll need the gear but so does everyone who wants to farm, most of my gears that I have for farming I don't use in PvP. Farmingwise I don't use my axes, my ornaments, my LA gears. Infact the only thing I keep is my legs, chest, helm, tome, rings.

    I've even leveled a BM, it was incredibly fast and took almost no effort.


    Or hell, roll a veno alt.

    If someone doesn't take you to instances on a veno then you shouldn't have run with them anyways because they can't appreciate purge + amp + demon ironwood.


    Roll a veno, you don't even need new gears. The only cost is some hypers (which are dirt cheap) and to level the skills which are a bit more.

    A herc really isn't needed for a veno anymore, I always tell the venos i do TT/Nirvana with to put away their herc and use a scorpion instead.
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  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    i agree that making a farming alt is a fix to the problem.
    eh, i even consider making one xd (mostly waiting for the expansion though)

    still, it's a way to avoid the problem, not solve it.
    just like flying and dropping gets u out of rubberband (well, maybe not exactly but it's kinda similar)
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    I'll agree that there is a "problem" but I think people overexaggerate it.



    And really, it's one of they only ways to be able to compete with cash shopping.


    But yea, just make a veno, anyone with an IQ above 80 can realize that if you have enough high APS DDs in a squad then a 25% amp is better than another one, and when demon ironwood procs, bosses in nirvana, their HP just plummets.
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  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    i agree that making a farming alt is a fix to the problem.
    eh, i even consider making one xd (mostly waiting for the expansion though)

    still, it's a way to avoid the problem, not solve it.
    just like flying and dropping gets u out of rubberband (well, maybe not exactly but it's kinda similar)

    seekers arent going to be farmers, they're going to be heavy armored mages.
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  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    seekers arent going to be farmers, they're going to be heavy armored mages.

    i was thinking more about mystics; i kinda like a veno/cleric crossover.
    depending on their debuffs, i think that they might fill the veno/cleric spot

    well, we shall see. generally i take any info about the expansion with a grain of salt since i dont play it myself. besides, after genesis a leveling rush will take place so finding alt fcs or w/e will be easy xd

    rawrgh, interesting suggestion. i was thinking about a cleric (already have one ~70 but in a different account). tbh i always thought that veno might be an interesting char to play.
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Mystics sound more like solo chars, but I dunno.

    I know that they have a heal and an auto res buff, but I don't know how strong the heals are.

    And I know they have pets, but I don't know if they have anything like a veno's amp or demon ironwood or purge.



    A cleric would be good too, but I know a lot of people recently are realizing again how good veno's amp and demon ironwood is.

    And for TT3-3 purge is absolutely essential for bosses like steelation, he becomes so much easier once you have a veno to purge the 5aps buff.

    Mystics look good though, if their heals are strong enough and they have good support skills then they may end up replacing clerics/venos, well not really replacing, but enough to be a good substitue.
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  • DeadlyShots - Dreamweaver
    DeadlyShots - Dreamweaver Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    mmm now i know why D_A_O sells all pimp tomes b:chuckle makes sense
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I don't care, I'm pointing out that you sacrifice PvE utility to be superior in PvP.

    Would you say that 5aps users are as bad in PvP as casters are in PvE?

    I don't really care about 5aps, but I don't really think that's a valid argument.

    You can argue that, yes, casters are better in PvP. But better by a margin as big as the one that 5aps beats us in PvE? It's not even a contest in my mind.

    also; sins.b:bye
    /argument
  • BlaZinBoy - Heavens Tear
    BlaZinBoy - Heavens Tear Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    hmm cool ill wait to see if there is a 3.33 nerf cause im already 3.33 on my alts and it will save me from spending anykind of money on rep..rather just sell gold to finish my tt99 gear..use the rep for my bow.
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Sins are only good in small fights in world PvP, they get destroyed in TW where you can use bramble, or any place where there are more than 5 people.


    And yes, casters are far better. A mage can stand 30 meters from a group of people, use BIDS and one shot everyone, then distance shrink back.

    For me to do something even comparable, I have to run up right in the middle of that group of people (run into the middle of a group of ppl in TW = insta death) Use armageddon which automatically ticks my charm and then attempt to somehow get away.

    Most of the time I'm dead before I even get there.
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  • ElderSig - Dreamweaver
    ElderSig - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Just to point out something Rawrgh ~ one inconsistency to point out.

    You say you shouldn't have rolled a wiz if you wanted to farm efficiently.

    But last time I check, barbs weren't suppose to be a high DPS at all, actually they were suppose to be lowest physical DPS class. But now, aps barbs hit higher DPS than a Rank 8 archer using a bow.
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  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    It's called learning to adapt.


    I also rolled a BM incase claw barb didn't work out.


    But the fact remains, I picked a class that was good a PvE, and actually when I rolled a barb people had already been going claw barb, WolfGore on HT was the first I think, and he restat for claws before I made my barb.
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  • babybattersplater
    babybattersplater Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    ok here ismy personal opion about 5aps it rocks for every1!!!!
    Every1 in squad with 1 benifits from them...

    Yes PVE 5 aps is godly, not so much in pvP

    SO y nerf sumthing good? Ppl are spending tons of getting geared out to 5aps
    so its a casH cow, y would u cut tha hand that feeds?

    How come on every QQ 5aps thread its always caster classes QQing? YOU wanted a caster, if u want reroll b/sin and put ur hard earned money where ur mouth is!!!!

    PWI has a track record of listening to the cashshoppers more than the F2P ppl, so y would they neft a good thing?

    Every Server benifits from 5 aps chars, they farm the mold, mat u need!!

    My question is so would u rather do a 30min TT/Nirvana or a 2 hr 1? IUm guessing the 1st
    its possable with 5 aps.

    And for Mag classes get ur own asses in gear and go farm ur -chan geat, get about 50% cast( ITS possable) then see how OP ur caster will be

    My cleric has about 40% cast and i smoke bms even if they are 5 aps, sin pfft squishy lil things
    If ur QQing about 5 aps then u are an idiot, ohh QQ i got attacked and died in 3 hits QQ
    Ohh they can farm solo QQ
    QQ this QQ that, THEY SPENT THE TIME AND MONEY TO BE OP, TAKE THE TIME AND MONEY TO DO IT UR SELF STOP WITH ALL THE qq AND THE FREAKING RUMORSb:angryb:angry
  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Mooy - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    They are not nerfed in Wanmei, people still complain Seeker can't 5.0 (because sage/demon for Earthguard not release yet).

    Are they even capable of 5.0 with a +attack speed spark? o.O Sword attack speed is 1.11 and being HA-based, I doubt they get -int on rank.
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    And I know they have pets, but I don't know if they have anything like a veno's amp or demon ironwood or purge.

    To the best of my knowledge, all they get is an aoe non-demon ironwood. They can do stuff that venos can't like aoe sleep, but no amp or purge. Mystic Sage/Demon isn't out yet so who knows what they'll get from that.
  • Tearle - Dreamweaver
    Tearle - Dreamweaver Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    RuneSeeker - Harshlands wrote: »
    Everyone by now knows the huge improvements in gameplay that will come if 5 APS if nerfed.

    Like what? o= I like having a high aps'er in squad as well as magic users. I agree 5aps is kinda insane but getting rid of it would make a lot of people throw a tantrum. Might be amusing for the forums. Haven't had much good on the forums drama wise since Modaggedon.

    So what improvements we talking bout? I don't look at 5aps threads often so I'm curious.
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  • Fuzzballs - Heavens Tear
    Fuzzballs - Heavens Tear Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Would be very amusing indeed, can't wait to read nooby QQ's about it.
  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Are they even capable of 5.0 with a +attack speed spark? o.O Sword attack speed is 1.11 and being HA-based, I doubt they get -int on rank.

    You do realise that you don't need -int. on rank gear to get 5.0, right? BMs are 5.0 without it. Just use full TT99 HA set with TT99 LA orns make 2nd cast Nirvana leggings, get a pan gu tome (or Love: Up and Down) lunar cape with -int. and a fist/claw weap with -int.

    As far as I know there isn't any swords with -int. (but that could change). But, even without it, they'd still be able to hit 5.0 with wind shield since swords aren't too far behind in attack speed relative to daggers (they're slower than fists but still enable 5.0 sins).
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  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Tearle - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Like what? o= I like having a high aps'er in squad as well as magic users. I agree 5aps is kinda insane but getting rid of it would make a lot of people throw a tantrum. Might be amusing for the forums. Haven't had much good on the forums drama wise since Modaggedon.

    So what improvements we talking bout? I don't look at 5aps threads often so I'm curious.

    Like melees still being primarily wanted even at lower aps over wizzy's.
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    Some people live to destroy me

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  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Just use [...] a fist/claw weap with -int.

    Seekers cannot use fist/claws. That's why I asked in the first place.
  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Seekers cannot use fist/claws. That's why I asked in the first place.

    1st. I was listing all the things needed to make a 5.0 BM. To prove that rank gear has nothing to do with even reaching it. Even sin and archers could get 5.0 w/o the r8 chest (gasp).

    2nd. Read the rest of the post. They can still hit 5.0 with swords.
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    Some people live to destroy me

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  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    You do realise that you don't need -int. on rank gear to get 5.0, right? BMs are 5.0 without it. Just use full TT99 HA set with TT99 LA orns make 2nd cast Nirvana leggings, get a pan gu tome (or Love: Up and Down) lunar cape with -int. and a fist/claw weap with -int.

    As far as I know there isn't any swords with -int. (but that could change). But, even without it, they'd still be able to hit 5.0 with wind shield since swords aren't too far behind in attack speed relative to daggers (they're slower than fists but still enable 5.0 sins).
    No they wouldn't.


    Even with a sword with -.10 the highest aps a seeker could get is 2.22 base, which is only 2.86 sparked.



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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    Thats very true and also one of the reasons that aps might get nerfed eventually. Short term its makes PWI money, but long term it creates players that doesnt need to cash shop as much as they use to.

    Once u get a char to 4.0/5.0 you're not so dependent of cash shopping anymore. Obviously you cant get rank9 +12 in 1 day like the guys with fat Credit Cards but you can still make enough cash for charms, refines, skills and occasionally new gear.

    Most people (specially clueless new players) seems to think 5.0 chars are people that cash shops heavily to be OP and dont know how to play and other rubbish. But in many cases its f2p players that invested a lot of time in-game grinding/farming to get an interval char that can support them financially without being tied up to the cash shop every time its a good sale.

    For people that only cash shoppers occasionally and for those that cant afford to charge at all, having an 5.0 char is like the only option atm to update your gear endgame.

    This is of course nothing someone that played for a few month and thinks HH99+5 is sufficient, would understand.

    I wouldn't say that...even if you no longer need to cash shop yourself, the gold that you buy to refine have to come from somewhere. Having people that are able to make coins efficiently is what drives this gold demand.
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  • LovesTragedy - Lost City
    LovesTragedy - Lost City Posts: 474 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    True. They are also removing frost, adding a new pvp server, allowing same gender marriages, and rescheduling TW to benefit European players.
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  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    1st. I was listing all the things needed to make a 5.0 BM. To prove that rank gear has nothing to do with even reaching it. Even sin and archers could get 5.0 w/o the r8 chest (gasp).

    2nd. Read the rest of the post. They can still hit 5.0 with swords.

    1) This has no relevance to Seekers. They start with a lower attack speed, and that loss has to be made up somewhere. Rank is a known source, but for LA only.

    2) I didn't respond to your second paragraph because you were talking about Windshield. If spark isn't going to enable 5.0 (see Rawrgh's post), then windshield doesn't stand a chance.
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    No they wouldn't.


    Even with a sword with -.10 the highest aps a seeker could get is 2.22 base, which is only 2.86 sparked.



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  • RuneSeeker - Harshlands
    RuneSeeker - Harshlands Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    lolwut?


    How will nerfing 5 aps improve gameplay lmao.
    Tearle - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Like what? o= I like having a high aps'er in squad as well as magic users. I agree 5aps is kinda insane but getting rid of it would make a lot of people throw a tantrum. Might be amusing for the forums. Haven't had much good on the forums drama wise since Modaggedon.

    So what improvements we talking bout? I don't look at 5aps threads often so I'm curious.

    You would have squads consisting of characters other than just 4/5 APS sins/bm's. Suddenly you barbs can tank, archers and wizards can step up and be DD too, and veno's debuff/aggro/tank.
    Ofcourse 5 APS makes things easier... if you somehow manage to get into that squad. More often than not if you're not 4/5 APS not many people will take you in their squad because APS makes things done quicker.
    -Need DD for fast FC run!
    ->101 archer with r8 -or- 101 wizzy with r8
    -sry we just got 5 aps sin
    ->sad face.
    And who ever said sins are PVE based chars? They're heavily PVP oriented as well. Just look at the CS sins @ west arch duking it out. Then look at them thredding PVE with 5 aps.
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  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    You think people would take you if 5 aps was removed?


    If people wont take you with 5 aps around they wont take you even if it's nerfed.

    If it's not 5 aps, then it's because you're a mage and an archer has higher DPS.

    If it's not 5 aps it's because you don't have a +10 weapon.

    If it's not 5 aps then it's because you don't have a R8/R9/Nirvana weapon.


    The thing is, those 5 aps squads are the "professional" squads, they take people that are only the best for the instance. If you aren't the best then you won't be running with them, with or without a cap on APS.



    barbs wont be tanking, not with all the high refined nirvana/R8/R9 weapons.

    Venos are useful now and any good farming squad has a veno.

    Mages won't be taken because they have crappy DPS.




    It's not people not taking you because you don't have 5aps, it's people not taking you because YOU ARE NOT UP TO THEIR STANDARD
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  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    i dont really agree rawrgh. standards are high because of 5aps.
    when someone can spend a -relatively small- amount of coins and get 5aps the standards will rise
    it's like the rank sale; too powerful for it's price that makes everything else obsolete.

    as matter of fact i do think that, should 5aps be nerfed severely, mage dps will shine
    especially with the rank sale.

    5aps squads arent that "professional". yes the professional squads are mostly 5aps; yet there are way too many 5aps or close to 5aps or close to the dps of 5aps to call a 5aps exclusive.

    r9+12 wizzies have a great dps; the only thing that makes it look insignificant is the huge dps of 5aps.

    are you telling me that ppl would pick an undergeared archer instead of a +10 r8 mage?

    ofc not everyone will get into the squad; but with lowering the standard, more ppl would be able to join squads, even if they have to spend a bit more in gear cause their class doesnt have "natural" good dps.

    ofc that can be done by boosting their dmg. with -what else, it's pwe- with r10 ofc.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited February 2011
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    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    i dont really agree rawrgh. standards are high because of 5aps.
    when someone can spend a -relatively small- amount of coins and get 5aps the standards will rise
    it's like the rank sale; too powerful for it's price that makes everything else obsolete.[/quote

    Relatively small amount of coin? Um, what the hell are you smoking? Even for an Archer, who gets the worst DPS out of them all and the cheapest 5 aps, it's still going to be somewhere around 150-200m coins for it. After that, you got sins that would need Rank 8 and any two from Nirvana leggings, Nirvana weapon and a tome. And that puts them in the 350-600m league.
    ofc not everyone will get into the squad; but with lowering the standard, more ppl would be able to join squads, even if they have to spend a bit more in gear cause their class doesnt have "natural" good dps

    But that's exactly it: nerfing won't lower the standards at all, it will just **** of the farmers. It's because those farmers have the attitude of highest efficiency over everything else. So unless your precious wizard happens to be in the top, then he's not getting in without having some really mad connections.
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