3.0aps+ equals frustrated barb.

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

I'm kinda a frustrated barb right now.
I"m pure tank. ( no i wont' restat so don't bother asking ), I"m sage, why sage? cause i have much more HP / dmg then demon. As tank I can't rely on "IF" i crit. I must be consistent.

I barely have enough dex for gear, infact changing rings breaks my gear LOL,
I have same thing for str. I literally calculate my point to the half point to totally maximize my hp.
I'm full hh80 gold thouigh I do have the 90G wrists now and pan gua's axes (grn ) +4.

I"m a good barb, I know this.. I"ve 17k+ hp w/o beast kings 11. and I'm lvl 92. a hell of a lot of 100+ barbs don't have my hp b:chuckle.

my problem is coming from high aps folks stealing agro constantly. I have to use a macro alot of the time, as I'm on my 2nd pc using either my EP or EA and they take constant attention. But even if I soley focus on my barb, it seems like I can't spam skills fast enough anymore to keep up with the agro.
Yesterday I did a WS run with a 3.0 fist bm and it was ridiculous. I was totally NOT needed. b:surrender

I'd like some advice on how to overcome this unbalance. I don't CS so I have to make do with what I can get. Plus, having more then 1 active char is a serious coin sink b:cry

your first error is misunderstanding what being a tank in this game - (pve seems to be).
from my own experience> Firstly it is about holding aggro, if the tank cant keep aggro, your not tanking, your just there dding a minor ammount as you mentioned with the Bm with 3.33aps.

secondly you barely have enough str or dex to have any reliable crit or damage output, again u will not keep aggro this way.


your a basic sage meatshield, lots of hp not much else, go pull cata.

here is my current build:

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c16c1d7dba7448da


I took a slightly different approach to sage barb, Potentially I could be 23-24k hp, however, this all hp no damage cept for arma build didnt appeal to me.

I built my sage barb how you would expect a demon axe barb to go.

I can hold aggro off 3.33-4aps most times depending on the weapon, 5aps is a massive struggle unless its like an archer with +1 deicides or something.

I am working slowly on a pair of G15 nirvana dual hammers with zerk reforging my tt100 poleaxe for a zerk weapon should increase my DD output a lot and maybe help me hold aggro a little better when I need to.


http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=eca4ed626867bd20


Also CRIT is much more important than u might think, spike damage can factor in a lot at being able to hold aggro so dont knock it down with "IF" you crit.

I have 20% crit as a sage barb and thats with 84 base dex. >_>

I suggest maybe a restat and experiment with some more uncanny builds.

You aren't going to be holding aggro from someone with 3.33 aps or higher, not with that build.


In fact, you won't be holding aggro from someone with 3.33 aps or higher even if you go balls out on the strength and add as much as you possibly can.


Honestly only way you'll be holding aggro from someone with high aps is if you go claw build yourself and have higher DPS.

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

@Rawrgh afaik "tanks" have no biz being claw ( espeically when they restrict it to bm only like its designed to be ) so now what? We stop being tanks?

@ Axelire
I"m honestly asking. I'm trying to understand how we as "tanks" still do our job w/o going to some crazy build

Who died and made you king of PWI?

Who are you to decide how classes should be built and played?

Who are you to decide who should be able to use claws


When you get to 100+ unless if you're playing with a bunch of people with **** gear including +2 weapons with flawless shards, you will never hold aggro as a barb without being claw build, ever.


Doesn't even have to be claw/fist built characters, you will never hold aggro from an archer with a +10 rank 8/nirvana wep


I can tank far better than you can so I fail to see how I have no "biz" being claw built.

<== before this sin, my main was a barb, sage which got to lvl100 then retired from frustration.

I can't give you any advice of overcoming the aggro problem, I never found it myself. My barb had TT99 weap +5, and all sage tigerform skills and no way to hold aggro.

In the 90s barb becomes more and more useless, and at 100 it even gets worse (this is my opinion and experience). You're basicly in squads to buff, and to grab aggro when things turn bad or when some unexpected mob attacks cleric or something. i.e. you're just a buff goon. There are only a few instances they really want a barb to tank : delta, metal and 3-3. Last 2 can be done by by good bms with good gear if squad is fast enough to kill. There is just no way to hold aggro from high aps dd's unless they gimp their damage (what they only do when they can't tank it).

I found only 2 solutions to actually be a tank :
- Keep barb just for TW/delta/places where you do feel usefull.
- Lvl a sin (or bm). This is what I did, and I'm finally tanking again.

Ofc, there is also the restat to fist option, but it won't make you tank, but will make you a dd besides the buff goon so you become usefull. I always rejected this, cause I will never play a toon with a weap that blocks all my skills. Overall, I don't see many active barbs 100+ that are axe/vit build and that also plan on staying it.

Sorry to be pessimistic, but the only way to become capable of tanking again would be to solve the "high aps being so op" problem. And we all know that won't happen

I'm currently a lvl 97 demon barb with a dex build, plan to restat to fist barb when I hit 99. Currently I can hold aggro from BMs that are 3.33 aps or less, and sins 2.86 aps or less.

When you talk about OP classes being the problem... this is endgame, they all are overpowered. Why? Because they have evolved with the game and as the gear/refines got better they were able to move more into pure DD. They have evolved into pure DD while barbs are still trying to stick with pure vit/def builds. We got the same armor upgrades as they did so we should be fine moving more into DD territory to keep up with them. Even moreso, because we benefit more from better refines. 25k+ hp is awesome, and gives you a huge comfort buffer but it's not needed for anything currently in game, except maybe a wb or two.

What has changed in the game is aggro skills are no longer enough to hold aggro. Barbs need to use damage for aggro. Sage barbs do 1/2 dmg + the bit they get from Titans. Which means going sage and adding to strength means your multiplier dmg is still reduced in half. To tank with damage you need to use human form, so there goes the hp bonus you get from sage. To get the sage hp/def bonus you could go back to tiger form, but then, as you pointed out, you won't have aggro. That makes you effectively a 17k hp, 13k (ish) pdef DDer that is doing less than 1/2 the damage of anyone else in the squad. Your only real use in the squad is to keep devour on and maybe interupt the boss occasionally for whoever is tanking.

The game is "broken" so barbs can no longer specialize in huge hp amounts. Instead we need to divide our focusses across damage and hp.

Vit/axe BMs are still arguing this same war against fist/axe BMs. To use axe and fists BMs have base vitality, but have maxed their dmg. They had learn to play their class with almost no vitality, and personally I think it made me a much better bm. The same goes to playing a barb. If you have 30k hp you don't learn the skills to survive tough situations because you don't need them, but 99% of the things a 30k hp barb can do a skilled 14k hp barb can do.

Edit: Wanted to add: 5.0 costs millions of coins. If they have spent that on gear they should be geared enough to tank. If its a sin, devouring for more bp back may be all the need. Just goes to prove that all that hp/def isn't needed when one of our squishiest LA classes with vitality reset back to 3 can take the place as tank.

Everything has been told. Since the unique power build is 5 aps, you can go any class without it, you'll have the same problems. I'm not even talking about refine and awful stuff like "free to play" ultimate gear +12 nirvana or such. It's the game evolution. If you wanna have fun (at least) go 5 aps. Even a psychic 5 aps could do everything in solo. It's just the wrong side of this evolution. When you wanna go ultimate char you just go do a 5 aps. They won't change anything from this subject since it's the only way for our game organizers to earn enough money to pee on any world millionnaire boss. So yes any other build is fail now. No need use skills, it's even worse than you could dream of. Skills are no use, just use a consistant wallet. This is not a game this is virtual life.

What I offer you is pay to play like an average 1k dollar every month (if you're poor go away - yes it's the answer of all "pro gamer" cashshopers) or go away. I don"'t subscribe to this but it's a reality now. It was like that before and it will ever be until PW is done.
No credit, just pay to have the feeling of being a good player, of being god.

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

The game has changed enormously since I first started 2+yrs ago and maybe thats my "problem". I worked hard with my build to be the best that I can be within the limits of not CS'n my familys food away. When allowed to do my job I"m very good @ it and well respected. That will have to be enough.

End game tanks are not restricted to the Barbarian class. It seems that you are finally starting to accept this. PWE betrayed the Barbarian class. This is why it seems they are nearly extinct these days.


If only we could get a 1 minute cooldown on sparks...

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

you missed the whole point by defending your build.
First, PWI themselves stated "fist/claw = BM ONLY" same as slingshot for Archer. Only for w/e reason they've allowed the glitch from day one. idky, i really don't care. it is what it is.

Wait, what? Where has PWI EVER stated that fist and claws are BM only? Sounds to me like you pulled that out your ***.

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

as for the last part of your statement regarding the 100+ thats exactly why I wrote this question. I am approaching that and already starting to see that. And I"m doing my best to learn how to be a "meat shield" and still hold agro.

It, isn't, possible. Unless if you're running with a squad that uses +2 TT90 weps at level 100+ you will never hold aggro as a vit build barb, even if you go and squeeze as many points of str as you can into your build, you still wont hold aggro.

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

yeah this is my understanding.. from watching a friend that is a fist barb, and man he can hold agro, but like you say, in 3-x he dies more times then I can count when trying to pull/lure cause he doesn't have anywhere near the hp have and he's very well geared.

I can solo TT3-2 and tank TT3-3 with a semi-decent squad, and I die way less than you or any vit build barb that doesn't have epic cash shopped gears. Tons of healing from bloodpaint, 3 seconds of invincibility every 15 seconds and 20% hp recovery every 15 seconds is godly.

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

Thank empu, one of the best answers I've gotten. I"ve got a 10x EA and I am very careful which weapon/ammo i use when dd'n so I don't steal agro. Even then I sometimes do b:shocked
I guess the only thing I can do @ this point, is get the few pieces of int gear I can as HA ( like my 99G wrists ) to HELP offset and continue to attempt to hold agro as best I can.
Let the "squishys" die if they wanna do 'my" job.
Relish in the times where my ability to "take a licking and keep on ticking" has value.

The game has changed enormously since I first started 2+yrs ago and maybe thats my "problem". I worked hard with my build to be the best that I can be within the limits of not CS'n my familys food away. When allowed to do my job I"m very good @ it and well respected. That will have to be enough.
Thanks for the encouragement.

None of these replys were the magic pill I was hoping for b:sad but reality often isn't b:surrender
one last question....
will getting say 3 pieces of int gear ( i know cape, fist, and neck/belt combo gives int ) make much of a diff? Is it worth trying for that?

Int gears wont do anything for you with axes, got to be using fist/claws.

Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »

Thank empu, one of the best answers I've gotten. I"ve got a 10x EA and I am very careful which weapon/ammo i use when dd'n so I don't steal agro. Even then I sometimes do b:shocked
I guess the only thing I can do @ this point, is get the few pieces of int gear I can as HA ( like my 99G wrists ) to HELP offset and continue to attempt to hold agro as best I can.
Let the "squishys" die if they wanna do 'my" job.
Relish in the times where my ability to "take a licking and keep on ticking" has value.

The game has changed enormously since I first started 2+yrs ago and maybe thats my "problem". I worked hard with my build to be the best that I can be within the limits of not CS'n my familys food away. When allowed to do my job I"m very good @ it and well respected. That will have to be enough.
Thanks for the encouragement.

None of these replys were the magic pill I was hoping for b:sad but reality often isn't b:surrender
one last question....
will getting say 3 pieces of int gear ( i know cape, fist, and neck/belt combo gives int ) make much of a diff? Is it worth trying for that?

Glad my post was of some help And yeah the game changed a lot. I tend to say that a lvl100+ barb is what a bm used to be : Backup tank, great buff, but mediocre damage. I miss aspects of the game before, but things evolve. It's so strange to be tanking more as a DD then as a tank class. But w/e

As for the -int, I don't think it will help you on aggro (assuming you still go for axes, not fist barb). The reason is simple, it's the same why bms all go for fist : -int has the biggest effect on weapons with the highest base aps. Axes are the lowest melee weapons, the effect of some -int will be minimal. You would reach like 1.46 aps (my barb has 1.25 aps with lionheart wrists and -int bonus (-0.15 total on a polehammer) so another -0.10 is rather easy to get). You see how much this differs from the same -int on fists, and that fists can have a -0.10 themselves what axes don't have (well dragon vibrancy has, but it's dual to start with). As an archer I'm sure you get the point. It's why fists end up outdamaging bows. The whole "problem" of op melee classes is based on how -int adds work imo, but that is another debate.

@Sakubatou : I'm not sure if you talk about axe/vit barbs or fist barbs, cause the damage argument really seems irrelevent to me for axe/vit. Tanking on damage is just not possible on a barb, sage or demon. Barbs have a low dps weap to start with. Demon barbs have better aggro with demon fleshream having shorter cd. Doing like 2k more damage per hit won't do anything when the DDs next to you do tenfold damage to start with...

OP is obviously frustrated, because he has a set mentality about his character "I R TANK HEAR ME RAWR". However, he's the type of person that expects others to play to the fashion he likes. Nope.. *shakes head* .. it doesn't work that way.

Having a 16K HP demon barb at lvl 94 (lvl 11 demon BKI), I can tell you that having that high HP, not being completely decked out, means your role is limited. Hell, the role of a pure dex/bow archer, or a pure nuke sin, or a pure crit cleric, are limited. Sure, they are builds that can be done, but while you are maintaining your vision of a build, you are also being belligerently, overly idealistic about how squads should see the way you fit in it, opposed to changing your role to fit with a squad. The former is going to lead to an endless degree of frustration. The latter is going to lead to you getting into more squads. Whichever you prefer, may you go down that path. That's pretty much it.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even though you're totally right here, don't you agree that a barb (i.e. the tank class of the game, at least initially it was) should be tanking when there is one in squad? It's like being the only cleric in a squad and they want you to DD so the wizzie can heal.

I played barb to tank, since they can't tank endgame, all fun dissapears there b:surrender at least for me. Ofc most barb have the "I R TANK HEAR ME RAWR" attitude, it's why they play the class, it's like that from beginning till it's summum in the 80s with pole and fcc, then BOOM buff goon and secondary tank. Again, I agree with you but still think it's normal for a barb to want to tank. I rerolled a sin to tank, kinda sad no?

For analogy's sake.. how about being a cleric in a FF squad DDing while a herc'd veno tanks? Or being a cleric in any squad with a high -int sin or bm or barb self tanking with BP?

Just because you're temporarily removed from your usual tendencies doesn't mean you're no longer what you set out to be. While I expect to lose aggro a lot (I tend to take higher DD's with my barb on FF), I still tank with my barb during FF, and without a doubt most squads will be looking for my barb when it comes to surviving rebirth.

I agree that barbs were meant to be tanks by the skills they were given, and the typical MMORPG **** and slash mentality of the higher HP, higher defense person tanking. But.. people decide what they want in squads, no matter how much or little it makes sense or is fair. I'm thinking about making my barb clawed too (not in too bad a rush since I already have a 5 aps bm/archer and 4.0/5.0 aps sage sin) but wouldn't do so if he had less than 15K HP buffed and in tiger, which means more highly refining/sharding the gear he and my BM share.

It really doesn't matter which build you pick as long as you consider it's upsides, downsides, perks, and limitations. To reiterate, the OP is not very pragmatic about his approach to squads and what they prefer. It's unfortunate that handfuls of barbs rolled as something else, BM's or sins, but there are also people replacing them as barbs too, keep in mind. Just because, generally speaking of course, other people do something is no reason to completely cave in on what you find fun, and just because you have to compromise and not get entirely what you want (in this case, to be tanking everything) doesn't mean that you can't have fun with that either.

I remember well over a year ago doing FF's on my herc veno and the herc with bash would **** off the barb at low lvls when he kept losing aggro. However, most ended up just switching out to human form, then a few cried like babies over it. The latter likely rolled a sin instead of modernizing their barb to be just as useful.

I rolled Demon because I was having trouble holding aggro from the Archer I started running TT's and FB's with. I stayed Demon, and got a pair of GX's because the Wizzy i ran with kept stealing aggro from me. I started stacking crit and -int gear because the sins I was running with started to steal aggro from me.

At this lvl, if a claw BM wants aggro, or a Sin wants aggro - he's gonna get it eventually. But I give them one hell of a run for their money, and I make 'em fight for it.

I ping-pong aggro on bosses in RBO, and Warsong, and TT with 100 sins and claw archers and high DPS BMs.

Because I dont ever use macros while tanking, and fire the right skills at the right time and fight for aggro, to help keep my squad alive.

RedMenace

\don't want to go claw barb
\\have a 'sin for DD, a barb's for tankin'

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even though you're totally right here, don't you agree that a barb (i.e. the tank class of the game, at least initially it was) should be tanking when there is one in squad? It's like being the only cleric in a squad and they want you to DD so the wizzie can heal.

I played barb to tank, since they can't tank endgame, all fun dissapears there b:surrender at least for me. Ofc most barb have the "I R TANK HEAR ME RAWR" attitude, it's why they play the class, it's like that from beginning till it's summum in the 80s with pole and fcc, then BOOM buff goon and secondary tank. Again, I agree with you but still think it's normal for a barb to want to tank. I rerolled a sin to tank, kinda sad no?

a tank is the person who has agro so if your barb dosnt have agro then get outa tiger unless ur demon and spam those skills while someone eisle who has the agro tank

Fist_Mama - Harshlands wrote: »

a tank is the person who has agro so if your barb dosnt have agro then get outa tiger unless ur demon and spam those skills while someone eisle who has the agro tank

congrats, you found the topic of this thread b:victory