When will BM be fun for me?

Julian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...you mad or something?

I don't think you like the fact that someone isn't playing by your rules.

Go cry me a river.

b:chuckle you rebel you

no really if you ok with being picked last for everything ever play the sword bm

Arlenia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you never want to do frost, never want to do nirvana, TW or serious PVP then sure, you can play how you want. Just do us a favor and tell your party about your build before you enter the instance so they can boot you if they don't like it. I hate porting in only to realize that the BM isn't going to be able to do his job. It's like a cleric joining a squad and then mentioning once everyone teleported that he's a metal mage and has no heals.

1. I do frost runs, how bout them apples?
2. TW is dead.
3. PVP? lol now we are talkin pvp? i never mentioned pvp, it's amazing what you people conjure up to debate about... seriously, find a new hobby.

Arlenia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Fact is, whether you want to or not, you are often inconveniencing your squad by not using HF and making things go a lot slower than they have to. And by not being able to AOE the way you could with axes. There's a reason why 99.9% of all BMs own a set of axes. In some instances, like RB for example, it's just not possible to complete it without that. In other cases things will just be slowed down.

I appreciate that you're honest about your unconventional build though. That way people can at least adapt to the fact that you won't be playing the usual BM role in the squad and maybe invite another BM and have you just DD. Problem is that not everyone is so thoughtful, and I've often enough struggled through an instance with a squad member that was more a hindrance than a help (most noiceable with important party members like barbs and clerics. DDs tend to be able to slide by)

Bold #1
Inconvenience my squad? Awww poor bebeb:cry

Bold #2
LOL, just say it already, its a RULE that all BMs should use HF... FFS you people act as if youre the gods of this game. You people seriously dont have any play style. It's always follow the crowd that's doing the same thing. You PEOPLE are the true lackluster. If you cannot appreciate ones own build, then you absolutely have no imagination.

Bold #3
Ding Ding Ding, omg u actually said something i wanted to hear... glad to see that marble of yours is working.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude, but by using purely fist or purely sword, or purely anything for that matter, isn't being unique. I have the same set of sword skills as you that I use when I need to. I have the same set of fist skills as you that I use when I need to.

You might differentiate yourself in build, but skills wise, I have the same skills as you do. I can do the same as you, and more.

You're not being rude, you just have the same attitude as everyone else, nuff saidb:bye

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

gratz your bm is totaly useless

archers/sins out DD you, barbs can hold aggro better, wizzies/psys aoe better than you other bm's can do more DPS have more rage skills can amp debuff and stun tank and aoe better than your build

your a waste of a squad spot...

if your ok with that by all means play away but do not even pretend your a usefull BM

want to use blades and get a squad? roll a damn seeker

Her BM isnt totally useless, it's funny cause she is playing it, what's even funnier is that your not. Waste of squad spot, LOLz.

You're not as useful as you think, look at this comment you made... "roll a damn seeker" LOLz

YOU are the perfect waste of pixels.b:bye


@OP, sry for hijacking your thread... i did warn that it becomes a flame fest, sry, pissing match...b:bye

Just my two cents.

I agree with most of the people here in the thread. Though I agree most with Julian and Odessa.

BM is the most versatile class to play, in loads of ways. There is no guide as to how BM should be played. A sword BM with the genie skill extreme poison can be just as useful as an axe BM without. Fact remains, that everyone is entitled to play the game as they wish.

I saw someone saying a sword BM is totally useless. Well, with the upcoming seeker they may become a bit that way. But lets face it, sword BM's can still let loose the most devastating aoe skill that a BM will ever have. One of the lvl 100 skills is restricted to swords only. The knockback skill is very useful to direct runners to where we want them to run (that is, not towards other mobs. Often involves using cloud sprint or WotB to get behind them and push them back, if possible). The other two skills are, at the least, not all that useful. But still are, to some point. A sword BM can differentiate himself from another sword BM by the skills that are used. Saying you both have the skillset doesnt mean ****, one sword BM might even decide not to use skills at all, and rely on the various weapon effects (TT90 gold blade, berserk anyone? Make it +5 and you're not making any friends among clerics. Trust me, I know. I had it on MY, and clerics hated me when I brought it out). The other two skills, mage bane and spirit chaser, are useless to the opinion of most BM's. But are they really?

At max lvl mage bane would double the casting time for 8 seconds. Enough time to bury someone. Admitted, it costs a spark, and axe BM's will tell me now I'd better preserve that spark for drake bash. But to the pure sword BM's I'd say, use it. Definitely. Spirit chaser lets you attack from a distance, then polearm BM's would say use a pole and then farstrike, its more efficient. But again, to the sword BM's, I'd say use it.

Atmos sword strike and myriad sword stance speak for themselves. I explained the use of the first, the latter will save a furry butt once or twice in a BH, especially the non charmed ones. And there are a great deal of them. As to them...tree of protection has a cooldown, a good 60 seconds. A charm only has 10 seconds cooldown. Even the most lousiest charm.

Make no mistake, I am an allround BM. I got TT80 axes and soon will have GX at 90. But next to that I will have TT90 gold blades, TT80 gold polearm and getting the dex needed for a nice fist. All in all, a BM is much more than only doing heavens flame and 5 APS. I rejoice the fact that there are people who resist to that.

I saw someone saying sticking to one weapon is limiting the true potential of a BM, and then said he was axe/fist. Sorry, but why say sticking to one weapon is limiting, why you do it yourself by sticking to axes and fists? The sole purpose of such a build is cast HF and then pound with fists. But thats too much focused on one target, while a BM has so much skills to control a crowd. AOE stun, single stun, AOE speed reduction, AOE phys+mag def reduction, AOE phys+mag attack reduction, doubling casting time, attacking from a distance, DOT. The list is long and distinguished. It's all about timing and choice as to what to do. The arrival of genies has only strengthened the possibility to stick to one weapon alone.

Only using heavens flame and then pound on a single target, that limits the true potential of a BM. Not sticking to one weapon. Swords are effective when used wisely. So Odessa and Julian, props to you both. Go out there and show what swords can do. But, to some extent, might advise to get at least extreme poison on your genie. That way you can stick to one weapon and still give the squad what they want.

(BTW dont stare blind on my level here. I come from PW MY and have a lvl 100 BM there, also allround. I've been playing a BM for a little over 2 years.)

Julian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

^ *cough* Odessa is pure fist.

You post was inspiring though. And I never even thought of Extreme Poison before now. I'll give it a try.

oh sowwy b:surrender

But even still. I've known a LA pure fist BM on MY. Nobody, really nobody, could beat him in PvP. It's an awesome built that brings out the best of fists. I cant even begin to think why people would have an objection against such a built. The loss of phys def can be compensated with sharding garnets. It actually has all the benefits of an archer, except the cut in half damage up close. Sorry Odessa.

Julian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Interesting... 1.5str/1.5vit/2dex per level? Full dex?

That I think is best answered by Odessa herself. If I had to venture a guess as to what she would put per two levels it would be 3 str 4 dex, and having 3 free points to play around with which could go all in vit, or 2 dex 1 vit or smth else. As said, free to play around with.

Mandagor - Harshlands wrote: »

That I think is best answered by Odessa herself. If I had to venture a guess as to what she would put per two levels it would be 3 str 4 dex, and having 3 free points to play around with which could go all in vit, or 2 dex 1 vit or smth else. As said, free to play around with.

Youre somewhat correct, but every lvl i add 1 str, 4 dex. But this isnt always true. Currently w/o gear this is my stats:

VIT - 5
MAG - 5
STR - 155
DEX - 280

HP 2625
MP 1575

This is my stats fully geared.

VIT - 111
MAG - 18
STR - 188
DEX - 302

HP 7227 (this HP is UNBUFFED)
MP 1692

When started making this, it was 1 str, 4 dex per lvl. As i grew i knew id have to gain some str to make up for some damage and the use of heavier gloves.

Remember, this is mainly built around an Archer and that meant more dex than str. Yes i am aware that my dex does not provide the power to kill. But my crt rate speaks for itself. I do use a genie, but atm im only using an STR based genie. The primary skill on that genie is Tangling Mire. She is lvl 85 with 100 str. With Tangling Mire at lvl10, the targets defense is lowered by 35% + for every 5 genie str added, the defense is lowered by an additional 1% (100/5=20) That 20% is added to the 35% = 55% lowered defense. IMO, this is the perfect skill for my type.

Since im only lvl 86, i do not have my demon spark. So how does one keep agro. I'll explain. Normally id have to build up chi first. Either i spam a few skills or kill some mobs along the way. Once i have my chi, there isnt a chance i wont be w/o 2 sparks.

This is a good example when im tanking BH69 (even pole). Sometimes it hard enough to find a barb to do bh69, so i end up being the tanker. Once we come to the bosses, this is how i open up as the boss approaches:

1. Spark
2. Tangling Mire
3. Cyclone Heel
4. Fist em to death

The steps here i do dont always happen again, i have to let Tangling Mire regen/cooldown. But i can do this every other turn and not lose agro. Im always sparking and performing CH.

I do use Extreme Poison too, but not very often as i am accustomed with TM.

Besides, i have Occult Ice for them random people who want to duel me >.>

Interesting, Odessa.

I use the Atmos/Spirit combo as Laranda mentioned, along with Aeolian Blade. For bosses, I'm quite fond of Draw Blood->Spark->Wind Shield for DPS. Since I have minimal dex and 5 vit, my damage is pretty decent... but I'm unbearably squishy Though I'm not TT gear level yet, so I haven't bothered sharding my gear with HP/defense yet.

Oh and I have a newb fist BM(level 30) with 3str/3vit/4dex every 2 levels. I use light armor on her, but I got the rank1 gear too. Not sure how it'll turn out.

OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sure thing, mind you the pwicalc uses perfect stats on the gear, but this is as close as it can get. everything currently on is the exact items used.

Unbuffed
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=825d3826c35b1069

Buffed (With all lvl10 skills, including Barb, Cleric)
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=5295b815c03308d1

Thank you. You can change the stats by clicking the item and then clicking "Change". I got the idea though.

Your HP unbuffed is the same as mine at 97 but then again, one vit stone is worth more than my equips on this char. My old BM had around 8k HP unbuffed (half HA half LA) and 3.33 aps sparked. That was not in PWI but on a legit server nonetheless. Your p.def fully buffed is the same as mine self buffed so it's still nice, especially for a LA build at 86.

All the full LA endgame BMs I met before PWI were a bit easier to kill than HAs because my acc was good (I had 200 dex and dual misties) and all of them were full dex so low HP and/or p. def and damage. There was one pro LA fist BM in MY that I can think of (although I didn't play there, my friend did) but then again, he had better gears than most other players.

Just to add for the OP, BM becomes fun when you can begin flaming other BMs over their build choices and gear setup. b:chuckle

Stupid BM is stupid.

b:chuckle but can you solo high level ttb:chuckle

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Plus, how unique are your characters when I can equip my sword and be a "sword only BM" in an instant.

No, you would not be a real "sword only BM." You could try to claim it, but it wouldn't be true. Julian's build, a true sword only build, would allow her to break 400 strength with gear. I'm doubtful a 3/2 build can do that. (It works out to around +45 to strength over a 3/2 build at lv100. That's without gear.)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

The reason so many people are "cookie cutter" is because thats the build that has been tried, improved, tried again, polished, and perfected before being copied by everyone else. But it also sounds like you have no interest in trying to be the best, just in being unique, right?

Were you around during the old days of BMs? I mean the first few months after the game was released. Builds were confusing. One had to worry about placing stats every 2 levels. Not one. There were also 4+ builds out there.

There's a convenience factor with the 3/2 build. It's a good build, but it isn't the pinnacle in a given direction beyond enabling axes and fists together.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

... and now because I feel like ripping into people for doing stupid things to spite others

Of course, she did state she had an archer and knew the build. Pretty good chance some if not most of that gear was stuff she had as an archer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but strength does not apply to the bonus damage from sparks, right? In a 5aps situation, 20% crit can means an average of a crit a second or so. I don't know if anyone has done a dps calculation for something like that. It'd be interesting to see.

For the record, I don't recommend a build like Odessa's for the average person. The average person might well not be interested in such a setup. It doesn't mean that build wouldn't perform well in the right hands.

So much anger....over what a build someone enjoys. b:sad I'm sure those who are playing the game how they want are having a blast. I know I am. Though I am one who loves to group up and quest or run a dungeon. I'm not saying I don't like to solo because I do. But all these posts remind me of the drama that went on in my days of wow.

I knew a warrior who wielded 2 axes but he wore leather armor. He kicked major butt. Heehee. He didn't pvp but he did raid quite and bit and suprised about 70% or the people he teamed with. Though I am a veno I have a bm who is currently my crafter . I send most of the materials to her so I can continue questing.

As for the op a class is only as fun as you make it out to be. If your bored playing this class. Go play another. Nothing anyone can tell you will change your decision sweety. It's all up to you as you are the one playing your toon. Not the other posters.

To the 2 who are LA Bm's. Good for you. Being different is what makes an mmo so fun. But others will have a different opinion. I'm sure you've heard it in game as well. But don't be afraid to try a different approach to your class. I'm trying a LA wizard just because. Heehee. Maybe the op should try LA and stick with one weapon. Maybe reading all the posts discribing how bm's should use multiple weapons to utilize there full potential as a bm is what is boring him.

I say play how you want. If the squad boots you for not playing how the other 90% play well that's there loss not yours. I do take my mmo's serios to a point. I love to benefit my group to being the best I can be. But I'm deffinately not afraid to be different. So good luck you 2! b:cute

Thanks Josh. I was going to stop posting here because there is very little point. I feel like the parent who is saying "finish highschool, use a condom, go to college, don't do drugs..." all good suggestions, but I get called a conformist for suggesting them. Just trying to help. And unlike reallife, this game is based on mathematic calculations. You add to strength, your damage increases. Ever stat points benefits can be mathematically calculated.

I really don't care what you do with your build. Just telling you the facts of the game. Calling me a conformist because I understand what works and would suggest it is fine. The OP asked when will BM become fun. I suggested the fun a bm is in it variability of ways to play it and its multiple types of skills and weapons. Sticking to one weapon is boring, lame, and usually ineffective.

The one excellent comment in this thread that showed some intelligence was Laranda's. I agreed with almost everything she said and especially liked the insight into using dexterity to increase spark dmg. As Josh pointed out, fist BMS endgame can have over 400 strength. I agree a perfect 3/2 ratio is not the pinnacle but its a great guideline. Endgame a 4:2 (ish) ratio would work better, minimizing dex to boost strenth. The reason some BMs stick with sword endgame is because they prefer not to part with their vitality, not because they want extra strength in their build. The 4:2 ratio of str to dexterity would still benefit them, and even if they stuck with sword only they'd have the option to wear fists. At endgame, overpumped dexterity does almost nothing to increase evasion or accuracy beyond what you get at around 200 dexterity, in both pve and pvp.

As I said, Laranda, I liked that you thought outside the box that spark increases weapon damage by 500% and strength doesn't benefit it. Most BMs have about 225-250% their normal damage in triple spark. The first 100% of that is the normal equation of

attack multiple = 1 + STR/150 + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs

Then the remaining 125-150% is your weapons base dmg x 500%. The more refined your weapon the more difference there is between a triple spark and your normal dmg.
A build like the 4:1 dex build Odessa sticks to would do about 60% the normal damage before spark, and the get 6% more out of her 125-150% spark dmg. So where most BMs do 225-250% dmg, she does about 196%-222.5% our dmg. Granted thats a 136-162.5% increase over her base it's still much less than a 3/2 build. But good thought.

And no I wasn't around during the first few months of pwi. I started about 13 months ago. But I learned from the earlier pioneers of BMs. 3/2 is an evolution from what people have learned.

Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »

A sword build can enable fists if one chooses. It's only an offset of 40 dex or so for decides or striking dragon. Especially since we have gear that offers both str and dex bonuses. Venos have been pulling off stunts like that for over a year so this should not come as a big surprise.

ofc you can use swords+fists and are no longer a "pure" sword bm and lose the 45 str you would have gained..makeing your last point totaly useless

Help? You're coming off as trying to force it down their throats. Calling someone stupid is a bad way to get them to listen. Same goes for calling a build useless when it's not. Useless is not the same as less effective even if we use the argument about a multipath build doing everything they can.

compared to the most common bm build its useless

You're trying to help someone who doesn't really need it. Big surprise it blows up in your face. Those that break the rules but hold to the spirit: they don't need the help you're offering. They know what they're doing and at what costs. Odessa has basically combined the Spear and Fist builds in her setup without wasting a single point of chi. How many BMs can claim to have done that?

i'm just openly mocking them for being tarded nobody posts "MY E-PEEN IS HUUUUUGE IN THIS LA" and actualyl wants constructive advice...and any bm on a 3-2 build can make that claim the only "wasted" points are those in mag

I can't claim that. I didn't even realize it was possible til she explained it.

If you need me to explain, reread how her build is setup. If you really are knowledgeable, you should be able to see it.

your kinda special too aint ya?

If you guys don't like multiquotes, prepare for a tl;dr here:

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

*amused*

a few points

fist builds can break 400 str

45 str <<< 50% attack speed

no really an all weapon bm can whip out a blade and do everything you can

so in short...if its a lolbuild or your haveing fun go ahead...do not even pretend its a competitive endgame build for pve, pvp, or tw

simple way to disprove me...name one thing you can do that a all weapon bm cannot do better, if you cannot go have fun just keep in mind that yes...you are useless

We don't care what you think. But it's annoying that you people keep posting to tell us the same stuff, when it's obvious that it's not gonna matter no matter how many times you say it.

Also...

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

simple way to disprove me...name one thing you can do that a all weapon bm cannot do better

Best thing I can think of is... well, a one-weapon BM can max skills easier at lower levels(say around my level) than an all-weapon one. I've almost maxed all of my current skills, while if I were leveling an all-weapon BM, I'd have come about half way.

Also, one-weapon builds are capable of having a different stat build than an all-weapon BM, which is almost entirely limited to 3str/2dex. Show me a 4.5 str all-wep BM, or a 1.5 vit BM. I'm not saying those are optimal builds, but being an all-wep BM does limit build options, skills excluded(eventually, when you max out every sage or demon version of every skill)

Not that I care about doing anything better than anyone. I'm not trying to be competitive here.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thanks Josh. I was going to stop posting here because there is very little point. I feel like the parent who is saying "finish highschool, use a condom, go to college, don't do drugs..." all good suggestions, but I get called a conformist for suggesting them. Just trying to help. And unlike reallife, this game is based on mathematic calculations. You add to strength, your damage increases. Ever stat points benefits can be mathematically calculated.

Helping with what? Helping us get in squads with picky jerks we'd rather not squad with in the first place? Help us better our PvP skills that we(or at least I) don't care for?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really don't care what you do with your build. Just telling you the facts of the game. Calling me a conformist because I understand what works and would suggest it is fine. The OP asked when will BM become fun. I suggested the fun a bm is in it variability of ways to play it and its multiple types of skills and weapons. Sticking to one weapon is boring, lame, and usually ineffective.

And we know the game. We aren't fools. You're trying to explain this stuff to us like we're little inexperienced newbs that aren't aware that our little imaginative builds aren't good at what you're assuming we want out of the game.

If you're trying to explain this to the OP, then I'll agree with you. But you're not. You're trying to explain it to us, and again, it is not necessary.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

The one excellent comment in this thread that showed some intelligence was Laranda's. I agreed with almost everything she said and especially liked the insight into using dexterity to increase spark dmg. As Josh pointed out, fist BMS endgame can have over 400 strength. I agree a perfect 3/2 ratio is not the pinnacle but its a great guideline. Endgame a 4:2 (ish) ratio would work better, minimizing dex to boost strenth. The reason some BMs stick with sword endgame is because they prefer not to part with their vitality, not because they want extra strength in their build. The 4:2 ratio of str to dexterity would still benefit them, and even if they stuck with sword only they'd have the option to wear fists. At endgame, overpumped dexterity does almost nothing to increase evasion or accuracy beyond what you get at around 200 dexterity, in both pve and pvp.

So... my 3.5 str build bothers you that much?

Too bad.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

And no I wasn't around during the first few months of pwi. I started about 13 months ago. But I learned from the earlier pioneers of BMs. 3/2 is an evolution from what people have learned.

3/2 is an evolution of what is considered optimal. Nothing more.

Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Help? You're coming off as trying to force it down their throats. Calling someone stupid is a bad way to get them to listen. Same goes for calling a build useless when it's not. Useless is not the same as less effective even if we use the argument about a multipath build doing everything they can.

You're trying to help someone who doesn't really need it. Big surprise it blows up in your face. Those that break the rules but hold to the spirit: they don't need the help you're offering. They know what they're doing and at what costs. Odessa has basically combined the Spear and Fist builds in her setup without wasting a single point of chi. How many BMs can claim to have done that?

This x1,000